Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Females and Asperger's

I'm looking up info because DD has a few autism red flags and delayed speech. I just read this article on being a woman with Asperger's and it took my breath away. I was saying "Yes" to more than half the post.

Is she just listing gifted traits (because a lot of it just sounds like typical intense gifted stuff to me) or is this really how Asperger's presents in women?

http://aspergersgirls.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/aspergers-traits-women-females-girls/

This could easily be me. It seems like the older I get, the more issues of this type.

I'm no expert, but some of that sounds like it would also be applicable to introverts and people with social anxiety, as well as highly sensitive people generally.

Yes - exactly So it brings me again to the question: at what point does a sensitive/sensory/quirky introvert step under the spectrum umbrella? On the one hand, do we have to pathologize every behaviour that isn't perfectly typical, but on the other hand thinking "oh, I/he/she could have Asperger's" makes it easier to understand the differences.

I go back and forth with this, for all three of us (DD9, DS8 and myself). I am certain that with today's diagnostic criteria I would have been diagnosed when I was a kid. Now I'm pretty typical (sort of ;p lol) but I've had decades with which to observe and assimilate behaviour...

Ditto!

It is IMO never a good idea to take a journalistic account of one person's experience, like this one, and treat it as diagnostic information. Doing so leads to inaccurate preconceptions of what autism is. The content of this article refers to one person's experience: for all we know she is gifted/autistic and that may be why the traits overlap.

There are standardized tests (like the ADOS) that should be used to distinguish who is on the autism spectrum.

There is a real difference between introversion and autism, and between giftedness and autism. Expert professionals are equipped to sort this out. I wouldn't do it on the basis of a blog post.

DeeDee

This article made me think of my late sister-in-law who I always assumed was agoraphobic. As far as I know she was never diagnosed with anything but was totally unable to function in society. She never went to the supermarket, did all her shopping by catalogue (despite living in a huge metropolitan area) and maintained only the minimum amount of human contact she had to - even with family. No one was allowed to lay eyes on her the last 6 months of her life. She would accept meals from me but I lived hundreds of miles away - I had to pack them in dry ice and ship them overnight. No help accepted from relatives living closer. This article gives me an interesting insight into some of what may have been going on with her. She was absolutely brilliant, always felt that she was "different" (it came across as "superior" but who really knows) and seemed sort of bemused by the idea of social skills being important. She wrote a novel but became offended when the prospective publisher asked for some edits. She refused to change a word and never submitted another manuscript for review. She published a handful of pieces in national publications but only if they were accepted "as is". Any request for changes was met not only with a "no" but with never submitting to that publication again. The more I think about it the more of this article really applied to her...

Her son, now 21, is living a similar life but was not able to navigate academically like his mother. He is now living a very isolated existence but feels the loneliness. Late SIL would have likely been happy living her entire life alone with only books for companions but nephew *wants* to be able to function better than he is. I have thought he was likely on the spectrum since he was a young child. We don't know how it could have been missed in all his years in public school or if his parents just rejected the idea. Although male much of this article applies to him as well.

I don't think this sounds like typical gifted behavior. I am HG and it doesn't apply to me. DD, while highly imaginative, had imaginary friends, etc, doesn't fit this profile either. I am no expert but I think maybe the line between sensitive, gifted introvert and Asperger's may be internal dialogue. With social anxiety I would think there would be a desire to fit in but not quite knowing how or trusting your ability to do it. With Asperger's isn't it more of not understanding the expectations or why/how what you are doing doesn't fit? Feeling that something just doesn't feel right about how you fit into the world but it is not something you can change?

Interesting, though. Thanks for posting it.

I'd agree absolutely with what DeeDee wrote.

To add my anecdotes, though, from the perspective of someone who lives with HG girls who are not on the spectrum, one of whom is an introvert, and who is/was gifted herself, and who knows at least one female peer of one of my dd's who is both gifted and on the ASD, I do see differences, though.

One of the major things that stands out to me in differentiating btwn say, my oldest dd who is HG and an introvert, and a gifted girl with Aspergers is the social naivete, mostly what the blogger lists as trait #2. My dd needs time alone to regenerate at times, she likes quiet, but she is also socially aware of what is okay and what is not and doesn't have to sell her soul to fit in. She fits in better with other HG kids and often with older kids, but she is able to be herself and be fairly popular. I was probably more awkward than she to be fair, so I don't see popularity as a measuring stick.

The girl I know who is 2e with Aspergers is not only socially awkward, she seems unaware that she is saying or doing things that make her appear odd and is hurt when it is pointed out and becomes defensive. She is very, very naive and seems much younger than her age as well. I don't see my HG kids as appearing younger than their ages. They may appear different in some ways, but if anything, they appear older than their ages.

Exactly... I've seen this behavior in all three of us - mostly in my son, leastly (is that a word? it is now ;p lol) in my daughter, and I, as a child, somewhere in between.

As a child I was a lot more clued out, prone to "oops" moments that I'd later think about and realize were wrong. I never knew what to say, how to say it, and the subtleties of conversation and interactions escaped me. I lacked "social emotion" (I was extremely sensitive in other ways though). Meanwhile I had sensory issues and encyclopedic fixations. Hmmm

Now I'm much different. (Much) I'm either incredibly chameleon-skilled, or I've learned and evolved (life therapy), or I was never on the spectrum to begin with.

Interestingly, the most dramatic changes happened during and after pregnancy. It makes me wonder if there were actual hormonal changes to my brain (a sort of re-wiring?) or if the experience of motherhood was enough to connect me? Motherhood/parenthood is as common as it is extraordinary, so maybe that was it? It's definitely profoundly changed me, that's for sure.

I can't really articulate the degree to which my understanding of human behaviour has changed. As a kid, I thought people were weird, and I couldn't understand how they socialized. I was always "wrong" in my attempts. Now I get it!! (yay )

My entire family has a LOT of spectrum traits.

But we are (none of us) even remotely on the spectrum, in spite of that.

So while reading that blog post, I kept thinking to myself-- yes, but the part that makes you an Aspie is that you think this is UNIQUE to you because you are an Aspie. It's not unique and only maybe is it because you're Aspie...

More probably, you just don't recognize those feelings in others, or recognize the way in which socially normative people express those same feelings of sadness/isolation/awkwardness/alienation.

I'm a gifted introvert. I could quite happily live without other people and not be particularly 'lonely' in the least. I also have a host of sensory issues. But the difference is that I am just about the furthest thing from socially blind. I may not agree with the emotional responses that I see from others-- but I seldom find them surprising or unexpected, though they are completely irrational (as emotional reactions so often are).

CCN, I recall vividly feeling awkward and painfully excluded from social interactions as a child, too. I think, though-- and thought even then (correctly, I'm pretty sure) that this was largely the result of asynchrony. I presumed that it would disappear in adulthood. It has. In retrospect, much of being not socially adroit is a function of childhood, and GT children often have age-inappropriate opportunities to put our feet in our mouths in much more spectacular/obvious fashion than our NT peers. KWIM?

Asynchrony can produce almost the exact same constellation of experiences, in other words. When coupled with being introverted and highly sensitive (from a literal standpoint), this can look a lot like being an Aspie.

Much of what the author describes strikes me not as "Aspie" but as what anyone who isn't fairly NT experiences in daily life. Feeling inauthentic in order to fit in.... check. Imposter syndrome.... check. Feeling distressed by dissonance... check. Hiding from one's self (and everyone else, too) in an effort to fit in... check, again.

All pretty normative for non-NT women, in my experience. Men seem to be more comfortable being who they actually are once they leave adolescence. For women, somehow those social pressures seem to last into middle age. Most of my female friends are only now (in their 40's and 50's) finding out that nothing dreadful happens if they drop all that pretense.

Apples-- In your thread the other day I voiced my opinion that I did not believe your DD to necessarily be speech delayed, but I guess I was in the minority. I also believed that by its definition in the DSM IV a child with a speech delay could not be diagnosed with Asperger's. But, then I cam across this,

Asperger's and delayed speech

which claims 50% of kids with Asperger's were speech delayed. So, now I'm just confused. I really thought Asperger's was characterized by advanced early speech.

Also in the article linked above they mentioned gestures. I thought that might interest you.


Of course, then there is the new DSM coming out next spring that is supposed to roll Aspergers into a general ASD diagnosis. FWIW I did not like the blog post. I just took it as one individual's account of living with Asperger's. It is not diagnostic criteria. I'd much prefer to read the DSM.

Different doctors behave differently with regard to this issue, which is one reason why autism, PDD-NOS, and Asperger's are all going to be called autism in the next DSM.

FWIW, the definition of Asperger's that seems to be most consistent across doctors is "autism without impairment in IQ." That is, autism without comorbid mental retardation.

DeeDee

Yup Asynchrony could definitely be the culprit. Particularly since I don't think a spectrum profile is something you outgrow, although you could certainly evolve and change.

Islandofapples: How pronounced are your DD's spectrum traits, and how delayed is her speech? A language disorder can delay speech quite a bit... I wonder if it's something like that?

My understanding is that Aspergers may have high levels of vocabulary and speech but the delay is in the pragmatic aspect of speech. That is, they are not delayed and even advanced (often highly advaniced) in speaking and in vocabulary but they can not converse. Rather "talk at" people - go on and on about things no one else is interested in with no "back and forth".

Marytheres, my DD was normal to advanced in speech development, I had no idea she was delayed in language (I had no idea what the development of speech/language was supposed to be like or that there were two distinct parts from an expert view). She is in the process of being diagnosed with Aspergers.

Yes, there are definitely two aspects - pragmatic language is a big factor in diagnosing aspergers and, I believe, even in diagnosing PDD-NOS... Good luck with daughters evals, MumofThree!

To compound confusion... that seems to describe 80% of the people I encounter on a daily basis.

LOL - maybe you are in a high aspergers area! I do not encounter people like this often and so when I do it's really very obvious to me.

Great point about "medical student syndrome". Even as an extrovert, I clearly remember plenty of isolated, socially awkward, and misfitting times. I think it's important to recognize that aspegers presents in non-gifted and seemingly extroverted people also. Another very identifiable feature (not always but extremely common) is the intense area of interest that becomes obsessive and inflexible. The interests are not socially typical for age but also beyond a wanting to learn about things like a giftie. I've seen kids with obsessions with keys, movie jacket intros, the history of firearms, and buttons. Of course there are some typical areas (Harry Potter, Pokemon, Building Blocks) but the obsession often morph into less pleasure seeking to descreasing anxiety when not able to engage in interest.

I do appreciate her perspective. Her well-penned description certainly seem to reasonate with many.

I wish it was that. Most people don't really pay attention. Conversations are fluffed with "go ahead and keep talking, but I'm not really paying attention" phrases. Real listening is uncommon as is attuned conversation. Criss-cross soliloquy is the norm.

The bad thing for gifted folks with typical social skills is that their interests may not encompass the nodding awareness topics like sport statistics, weather, fotm TV, gossip, etc. So, what is really just an interest mismatch is read as a skill deficit.

Agreed. (Where's that "like" button?? )

I see this all the time where I live, as well-- it's a function of having a large university and a major regional medical center-- and a high tech company. Lots of engineers (which tend to be an Aspie-enriched group, in my experience) and also lots of gifties (specialist physicians and faculty).

The two groups are WAY different from one another socially, but the difference isn't in their level of specialty interest-- it is instead in the level of adaptability to conversation. The gifties can give proper social signals in response to boring drivel that they could care less about, and refrain from discussing the stuff that they are actually interested in... and the Aspies (mostly) cannot.

Most people really don't have very good communication skills. This actually makes things far harder on Aspies than it should be, IMO. Come to that, it makes life harder on everyone else, too.

It took me some time to figure out that the best approach in the law firm world was just to keep my mouth shut.

Hmm. Interesting. I feel it is kind of our fault she went with gestures, since I bought all 30+ Signing Time DVDs as she mastered them. But we haven't watched them in months.

A week ago she said "Daddy" pretty clearly. She also tried to say Elmo (elwo) and Barney (Bar-nee, Bardue) She's been making more sounds that sound like words - she's never "jabbered" before - but they don't really sound like words. She keeps saying "Bah-due" for mommy, but she says "Mo" for "No", and says M makes the Mmmm sound, so I'm not sure why she can't do the M in mommy. Maybe I need to check her hearing again.

We're getting her lip tie looked at this week and will probably get it fixed at the end of the month. She could also have posterior tongue tie. For all I know, she'll start talking after that.

I just spent some time looking at milestones on the PBS website, and she's a solid 3 year old - even doing some things 4 and 5 year olds typically do... but her speech seems to be very delayed. Her speech has been lagging since she was an infant, though.

I'm hoping I'm just worrying too much and she'll just start talking in the next 2-3 months.

The main red flags are some toe walking, sometimes seeming to ignore us or not pay attention to us when we call her name, and her speech. Her obsession with jigsaw puzzles right now is not age appropriate, but it's probably fine...

This was my two. Exactly.


This could be the entire issue - an anatomical road block.

A friend of mine had a newborn who couldn't latch - she tried and tried - all the nurses in the hospital missed the fact that the baby was tongue tied and it took an independent lactation consultant to figure it out.

I'm really curious to see where this goes for your DD - I would think lip and/or tongue ties could really impact speech.

Good luck

I will update when we do it! I've heard some good stories about fixing these things and having toddlers start talking right away, but not everyone believes that lip ties really affect speech much.

Yes. I have heard, from Gods know what source over the years, that socially Aspies tend to run 2/3 to 3/4 their chronological age. And I will say that if I look at my 14yo PG Aspie daughter as an 11yo who was skipped a few times and landed in high school before her time, she looks/acts/sounds far more the part.
Otherwise, I would concur with DeeDee. Take blog posts (and board posts) as seriously as you would playground mom anecdotes, and consult a pedi neuropsych if you're really wondering.