Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy how to help son with writing process?

I'm usually here talking about DD5, but today have a question about DS8 in 3rd grade.

A little background: He was very precocious (especially verbally) as a baby/young child, and today is a deep thinker, creative, inventive, and emotionally very sensitive and perceptive. I think he is equally gifted to DD5 but is not the "shining high achiever" that DD5 is. He has a greater disparity between his intellectual/academic abilities and social/emotional maturity. He gets mostly good grades but can be inconsistent in his output depending on how much effort he "feels like" putting into something.

He often finds the "process" of schoolwork tedious and pointless. (For example, if the teacher writes sentences on the board and tells them to copy down the sentences and underline the verbs, he'll say, "Why can't I just write the verbs? Why do I have to write the whole sentence?") He hates having to explain his work or how he arrived at a conclusion. He is impatient, wants to rush through work to get it over with, misses details, hates following directions, and quickly gets frustrated when he has to "slow down" or do anything over.

He/we have made huge progress this year in several areas: 1)many fewer emotional meltdowns at school over little things like one wrong on a spelling pretest; 2)less arguing/complaining about doing homework; 3)better understanding of the importance of studying and not just "winging it"; and 4)starting to show a greater willingness to slow down, take more time, and try to do his best work.

However, WRITING remains a huge frustration for him. My question is: How can I help him with his writing skills? And should I have him pursue writing the same way he's being taught at school?

Our entire district uses the "Four-Square Method" of teaching writing, and he absolutely hates it. He doesn't want to have to "plan" what he's going to write... he just wants to write it. I can't say I blame him, as I am more of an intuitive writer myself and I find the Four-Square Method somewhat restrictive. However, this is what is going to be used to teach writing in every grade in our district for the foreseeable future...so it is something he has to learn.

He says he hates writing, which breaks my heart because he's so verbally adept and creative with language. At school he complains (and sometimes cries) about having to write on assigned topics because he says he can't think of anything to write. He says if he could write about any topic he chose, it wouldn't be so hard. But then, when given an open-ended assignment to write about any three things he is thankful for, he was just as frustrated. At home he says it's having to do the "stupid" Four-Square that he hates the most.

On the "three things thankful" assignment, which he wrote at home because of being missing school when they worked it, I let him write the paper first (rough draft and final version) and fill out the Four-Square afterward. Writing the paper was still a frustrating process for him (and thus agonizing for me), even though we broke it down into small portions separated by long breaks... but he loved being able to fill out the Four-Square afterwards!

However, the teacher did NOT like this approach, as she let me know at conferences. She also said she prefers he do his writing assignments at school so she can see his process. (It ended up being a really good paper, and I think she thought I helped him write it. But I did not help him write it, just asked questions to get him thinking, broke it down into smaller parts, kept him on task, etc.) She liked the idea of having him do more writing practice at home but didn't have any suggestions for me about what exactly to do.

I talked to DS this week and he is willing to work on his writing at home, even seemed excited about it. I asked if he had any ideas about what we could do, and he said "maybe we can find some ideas on the Internet." We talked about the point being to learn about the writing process... start with an idea, flesh it out, write a rough draft, do revisions, etc. That it wasn't going to be a "sit down and rush out a story in ten minutes" kind of thing, but might take one or two weeks to do one project... he said he got it.

So, we started yesterday. His idea was to draw a picture and then write a story about it. He drew a quick picture of Santa on a rooftop. On the back of the drawing he wrote: "Paragraph #1: Christmas is coming in a little bit. I'm really excited because Christmas will be fun. It's fun because you spend time with your family."

At that point I said "whoa, wait a second... remember we talked about PROCESS? First step is the drawing. Second step is mapping out your ideas..." and I asked him to back up and do a Four-Square. He got mad and frustrated and said he just wanted to write the story, not map it out on the "stupid Four Square." Eventually he did fill out the Four-Square but grudgingly and then did not want to have anything more to do with the project.

I'm not sure where to go from here. Should I just let him write the way he wants, let it be creative free-flowing writing-for-the-sake-of-writing? Or should I make him do it the way they do at school?

(Sorry this got so long. Brevity is not one of my strengths.)

I would let him do free flowing writing at home, while he is working with you- after all this will build his creativity. Maybe he is simply too young to be learning about the whole writing process? Maybe it will eventually come and become easier as he writes more and more? In my DD school (fourth grade), beside the long writing assignments (never heard about the four square method though)they do Daily Obligatory Tasks (DOT's) at the beginning of each lesson, and in LA it is usually one paragraf on an assigned topic. One day you are going to like the topic, one day you will hate it, but I think it gets them going and being used to writing about variety of things.
I am all for creative writing, so just learn how to survive this teacher. Maybe later on they won't be nagging him about mapping the whole process (I understand that the whole district uses it, but maybe if later on his written assignmnets are good and clear, they won't bug him about mapping it down). I keep telling myself and my kids that grades are not the most important thing here, the most important think about writing is to write clearly and easily. Besides, writing is such a subjective matter. You will never satisy all your readers :-)
Ania

Oh GG!
Yes you should let him write the way he wants at home. You should just have him write and write and write about what he loves and praise everything you like.

Of course I don't mean general praise, pick up a copy of 6 + 1 Traits of Writing: The Complete Guide (Grades 3 and Up) by Ruth Culham "

It's laugh out loud funny and well written, and will give you something to praise, specificially, besides "Organisation" - which is one, but not the only trait.

Also - how his touch typing? I would really hesitate to put ANY gifted child under any pressure to write until the Touch Typing is a usable tool. I always think of boys like yours and mine as having "Big Giant Heads" stuck on "Skinny Wobbly Necks." Touch Typing helps them "bulk up" where it's most needed. so my advice is flatter, cajole, or bribe your DS into using programs like Mavis Beacon. I started my DS at age 7, by age 9 he was fluent. One of the things that got my DS admitted to his private school and then the grade skip was how impressed everyone was over his touch typing. They all mention how his fingers are flying over the keyboard while his head is swiveling around the room. It's just freaky enough to give them some tangable proof that he really does need something different.

I'm not bragging, but touch typing has acted like a safety net for DS10. Literally, he forgot to complete a paper for LA class yesterday, but because he's such a fast typer, was able to "whip something out" during study hall. I'm not saying that this is the prefered way to go, but given his orrganizational skills, it doesn't hurt that he can burn through some of these assignments.

Yes, the key has always been to slow DS10 down and get him to follow directions, give more details. I do believe it's perfectionism and being left with "enforced underachievment" for so many years. He has evolved an approach that I call, (behind his back) the "Close your eyes and think of England." approach to homework and school in general at times. ((Private message me if anyone is not getting my reference to the Victorian Age.))
He gets it "over with" as quickly as possible with his emotional shields cranked up all the way!

Best Wishes,
Trinity

Please pardon my ignorance here. Is touch-typing different than regular keyboard typing?

Touch typing refers to any systematic keyboarding where the eyes are not required. Many adults today are using the "hunt and peck" method, or a method they invented themselves. Because some of our children are keyboarding in a "hunt and peck" way from toddlerhood, I use the phrase Touch Typing to remind parent to do education here, and not allow the child always to "do their own thing." I love creativity and self-expression, but not when it leads to an artificially lower ceiling.

I've heard tales about alternativly arranged keyboards with wonderously fast and easy paths to 60 words/minute, eyes-free, and have not objection to these alternatives. I just never met a real live person who used them.

Galaxy Girl,

Is it the handwriting or writing composition that your son dislikes? If it is just the physical act of handwriting, keyboarding (touch-typing) may help him enjoy the creative process more.

This topic is timely for me also. My non-Davidson daughter (although still gifted) told me last night that she doesn�t write as well as she would like. This is a fair assessment on her part. I was privately beginning to wonder if we should focus on her writing ability more also.

Background: She has some established LD tendencies in expressive and receptive language abilities although no formal diagnosis. (Ex. 1st percentile for phonological discrimination.) Anyways, I wonder if some academic difficulties (which are infrequent) are due to our lack of help in her LD affected areas. We have chosen to ignore the follow-up referrals since she does very well academically and has many areas of strength that she focuses on instead.

So, back to the writing; I told her that she should write a holiday letter (In our case Christmas) for our family this year. I told her that we would probably not send it just because they often come across a bragging, but that we would keep it for ourselves to remember the year.

I wish their school focused more on writing than the grammar lessons that seem so in-depth. I told my daughter that her grammar lessons were similar the phonics in reading (she�s a sight reader) that was stressed very heavily in the lower grades.

Aren�t the preferences for sight-reading v. phonetic reading and desire to skip steps in many academic areas indicative of an Intuitive tendency?

Deblows -
1% in phonological discrimination? Ouch! Take a look at my 2nd language post. I am sure that I have less of that than my husband and son, who are excellent with accents, music and spelling. Unless your daughter has proven herself with 2nd languages, I would reccomend you get on that while she's young enought. I hated growing up not being able to discrimate between "can" and "cane." Most of my issue was that my perfectionism magnified my relative lack way out of proportion, but the kernel was there. It just slowed me down in my best area, listening to other people speak.

Also - I like focusing in on "hating to handwrite" v. "hating to compose" BUT I still think that for "thoughtful kids" keyboarding is part of the cure for BOTH problems.

Best Wishes
Cousin Trin

Thank you, Ania! Your advice (and Trinity's, too) confirms what my instinct was telling me--to just let him write and express his creativity and start to love writing instead of hate it.



Just for the record... Actually his teacher this year is absolutely wonderful, despite the way I described her comments regarding the writing issues. In fact I'd say she's the best teacher he's had yet. She is so enthusiastic about her work (this is her second year of teaching), patient and kind, encouraging, and emotionally nurturing--which DS8 needs. She challenges him to put forth his best effort and he likes her so much that he really wants to please her and do well. Once he thought he hurt her feelings by complaining about something, so he spent a long time composing a poem of apology to her, and re-writing it neatly on a card he made, and taped Tootsie Rolls all over it because he knew she liked chocolate....it was cute.

She and I have a great rapport. We talk often--phone calls and email--and have what I think of as little mini-conferences about DS on all types of things. She called me after school on Monday just to tell me that DS had an awesome day, was so happy all day long, didn't get emotional about anything, etc. I told her I am praying fervently that she gets bumped up to 4th grade next year so DS can stay with her for another year!


You're right, Ania, and thanks for the reminder. Grades do not always equal learning.

Thank you Trinity! I am so happy to read this advice, as I told Ania above. Relieved to have my instincts verified. And I will look for the 6 Traits book.


We haven't tackled touch typing yet. He's still a hunt-and-peck typer. I know he would enjoy learning this, as he has already mentioned wishing he could type faster/better. It's on my (ever growing) list of things to do with him.


LOL, so true. He really does have a big giant head on a skinny neck and skinny body. As an infant he was in the 5th to 10th percentile for height and weight... and something like the 80th percentile for head circumference!

LOL again!

Thanks for the laughs.

Delbows, good question. He's had some frustrations over fine motor skills in the past couple years, but those were more related to drawing/art projects than to writing. In K, he had trouble learning to hold his pencil properly (did the fist grip) but it didn't bother him at all, just bothered the teacher. We worked with him and he corrected it pretty quickly. In 1st grade, he had a HUGE prolonged crying fit/tantrum one day when the teacher said they couldn't draw stick figures anymore but had to use "shapes" to draw people instead. He couldn't do it easily and everyone else could... later he said he was upset because he realized he was going to be the last one done, and he's usually the first one done for everything. So it was a big ego blow. In 2nd grade, similar type of tantrum when asked to draw a self-portrait in a very specific way (couldn't just do his own thing). This year, a meltdown over an art project that wasn't turning out the way he had pictured it in his head... but it was a brief meltdown; his teacher talked him through it and he got over it quickly and got back to work (and ended up being happy with the project after all).

However, with the writing, I think his frustration is related more to writing composition... especially the process of organizing/planning/mapping out ahead of time, and also having to take care of little details afterward (checking punctuation, etc.). He's more of a "big picture" guy. He gets frustrated when asked to organize anything in detail. His sisters seem to love the little detail work. Ask them to put away Lego blocks, for example, and they might just decide to sort them all by color first. They find that fun, but stuff like that drives him nuts... he'll be rolling his eyes at them and yelling "just throw the Legos in the box and get it over with already!" He's generally impatient about most things, wants to get to the destination, not smell the roses along the way. (Sometimes we call him "latte boy" -- remember the commercials where the woman orders a latte, then two seconds later says "Is my latte ready yet?")

I think having to "map out" the writing feels like a pointless chore to him. He gets equally frustrated with math problems that say "explain your answer." He'll say, "But I know the answer is correct; why do I have to explain how I got there?" (Similar to DD5 saying, before we changed schools at the start of this year: "If I already know that word is CAT, why do I have to say 'Kuh - Ah - Ttt'?" when the teacher wanted her to sound out simple words she could read years ago.)


By the way, I love the idea for your daughter to write the holiday letter. That's a great project.

Thanks for your input.

GG -
I am ROTFLOL, with a tear in my eye over this:

He really does have a big giant head on a skinny neck and skinny body. As an infant he was in the 5th to 10th percentile for height and weight... and something like the 80th percentile for head circumference!

Did you know that there are actual statistics to support the extra smart kids with extra large heads thing? Also the glasses and allergies? So the mental image of "too-smart" kids from my childhood has some statistics behind it. Too bad I was trying so hard to hide while I was making my school and career decisions. Perhaps it's not too late.
Trin

I picked up 6 +1 yesterday and started reading little blips from it to Mite. He was enchanted and said, "Oh! I didn't think about that" and "Yeah! That's kinda how Paolini does it in Eragon. He describes it so you feel like you are there." and "Oh! So that's why Eragon feels like you are walking in the dark with them. Paolini uses a dark voice to write his story."

sheesh. I never thought to explain writing like that. Obviously the wonderful education system hasn't done a good job of it either.

I'm placing odds that he'll use every suggestion I read to him on his long homework writing assignment this weekend.

totally jumping in to the middle of the conversation, but thought I'd join in nonetheless:^)

I'm really glad Mite liked the 6+1 book. I loved it. I must credit my local public school with choosing the system. I have heard lots of other parents who hate the system with a passion, so I guess some of the teachers don't apply it as well as the author of the book. Mite is luck to have you!

Big Smile
Trin

Check out www.beestar.org
Ania

I think the story of the "process" kids are forced to go through makes me immediately think homeschooling (even though I don't homeschool). I hate infringements on freedoms, especially for really bright kids. I know educators would argue that it's their job and there's a pay-off, but I can understand your son's frustration with the "process". I don't like all the time taken to write sentences for spelling words (oftentimes too basic words) or looking them up and writing the definitions. There is value for learning the definitions, but not all that writing. It's agonizing for a little kid. It'd be agonizing for me, too, at 43. I'd probably have a tantrum, too. I say that and yet my kids do it, mostly without complaint. I treat it like busy-work that one must do even if you don't like it. Like mopping for me. Get it done fast, don't think about it again. Unfortunately, expository writing isn't the same as the busy work tasks, because it's your son's strength/passion. However, I worry that the process will turn him off entirely. I wonder if this would be a situation where you could intervene under the IEP umbrella of special accommodations. Once he demonstrates that he understands the concept and can employ it, maybe he shouldn't have to do it anymore. Move on. Let him use his own way. I don't necessarily practice what I preach, but I think it's okay to rebel sometimes and advocate for your son (he'll appreciate it and remember it--my dad was a very vocal rebel and advocated for his daughters all the time).

I feel the same way about showing work for math problems--it's so cumbersome for my son, but I understand it's value from an educator's standpoint. I'd like to negotiate showing the work for half the problems, or something less.

Oh wow! I'm a newbie but my son is the same way! He's a 12yr old that is very advanced reading/language arts wise but HATES to write. His handwriting is atrocious due mainly to his kindergarten teacher forcing him to choose a hand. He's ambidextrious and we had always been told to allow HIM to choose a dominant hand and then his kinder. teacher in the public school forced him (without our knowledge I might add) to choose so he chose right...he should have probably chose left. So to make a long story short he does everything but write with his left hand. He could be a doctor his handwriting is so bad!

For the most part I am teaching him to keyboard however teachers have NOT been so easy to work with. A few have allowed him to do this during composition tests but most have not. Therefore his grades suffer because he will NOT write lengthy paragraphs. Flat out will NOT do it. He'll tell me that he "answered the question" in one sentence and doesn't see the need to elaborate. A huge part of it is that he is forced into the regular classroom and doing grade level reading instead of being allowed to excel (which is an entirely different topic!) so he's bored and zoning out and then refusing to write.

What we did for the keyboarding is to get our son a smaller keyboard...in fact it's the one that I prefer using since I"m not a huge person myself. It has helped him to begin to get over the "hunt and peck" method and into the correct way of typing. Laptops work well for this too.

And maybe it's gifted boys in general but my son had/has a huge head on a skinny body as well! When he was delivered via csection the OB even said "holy ($&% look at this kids head!" LOL

LOL Dealande -
Welcome home dear!
I am glad you finally get to be in a place where your child is normal! You can stop worrying about the kindergarden teacher, your son most likely wouldn't be able to express his ideas no matter what hand he uses.

I can't believe your school won't let him keyboard! Do they have any idea the gap between his IQ and his written product?

As for the big head, well there are plenty of very highly gifted kids who don't have a big head, just an disproportionalte number of kids who do. Yes, it's been studied -

Welcome Hugs -
Trinity

Thanks Trinity!
We live in PA which has a horrible Gifted Ed record. As of this moment we're still fighting with the district to get our son to be permitted to read at HIS level instead of the "three levels available" with their inadequate reading program. He's in 6th grade and just finished reading Rumpelstiltskin's Daughter...no I'm NOT kidding! It's rated ages 4-8 for reading and grades 2-4 for teaching and Alex tested at 10th grade for reading comprehension but to our public school district it's "unfair" for the brighter kids to be advanced...not good for the lower end children's self esteem. It's all about standards testing and pulling the bottom up at the expense of the top. So the school will only do the rock bottom minimum to keep themselves out of court. We're trying to pursue legal action but having trouble finding a lawyer. But I WILL keep trying!

I've begged to have him keyboard but have been told again "no" because unless he has a writing DISability (and sloppy handwriting doesn't count) that it's "not fair to the other students". The curriculum director has stated that he firmly believes that my son isn't gifted and that the writing problem proves this...he wants him retested. Fine by me but an UNbiased tester! You'd be amazed at the nasty names I've been called by "professionals" with phd's because I refuse to allow my son to be stuck in a regular classroom with children that can't read yet!

Oh boy...feel better now! ;-)

As for the big head...I just keep reminding my son that Bill Gates and Einstein both had large heads!

thanks for the warm welcome!

dealande-
Have they evaluated him for special ed?

Dealande:
Check out http://www.appliedgifteded.com/
This father posted on this forum under Gifted Ed Advocacy Site for Pennsylvania. Seems like he went through a lot but finally figured out the system
Ania

writing process "new idea" ((as if))

I was trying to help DS10's teacher puzzle out his responce to writing a paper on a topic. I think that the whole idea strikes DS10 as redundant, as in, what is the point of taking information out of books and reworking it into a 4 page paper, when LOL, the information is already on the internet and in Books. ((LOLROTF - could he please be less insightful sometimes?))

Anyway - they are "teaching" him to structure the paper by putting 5 questions about his topic, Egypt, on note cards and having him answer the questions. Then they complain that he questions he askes are generating short answers that will not magically grow into paragrahps like the method says they will.

I was suggesting that they ask him to put "perspective" on the 5 cards, not "questions." Then I had the insight that the process is comperable to the fable about the blind men examining the Elephant - each has their own perspective. That got me very excited because aren't we all blind when we try to take on a complicated subject? Isn't this the essence of the excersize?

I was imagining going around teaching children to explore through writing with my wonderful story. Then I remembered: If I tryed in on many normal children, their response would be - what does an elephant and a bunch of blind guys have to do with Egypt?

Similarly, DS10 is just as mystified why a person would want to use 5 questions to write a paper.

LOLOLOL! At least I can brag about my great idea here, and expect to help at least one other family.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Hi Dottie!

I'm in the South Williamsport school district. I'm not sure if this is a lycoming county problem or a local ps district problem since I'm stuck dealing with the superintendent etc. They ONLY teach to the PSSA and will NOT do anything above and beyond that even though I've quoted chapter 16 until I'm blue in the face! We have yet another meeting scheduled for this coming tues with the title one teacher...because he's the ONLY one that the district has offered to sit down with us to try and figure out a reading program that will fit my son. As of now he's in 6th grade doing "regular 6th grade work" without anything additional. He considers them to be baby books and pretty much zones out the entire day. The superintendent has lowered himself to name calling and veiled threats if I don't shut up. Well this is my son's ONE chance for a decent education so no, I"m not about to shut up! Where are you Dottie? Close enough to compare nots about the public schools?? ;-)

Hi willagayle!

Yep he was evaulated 4yrs ago and we have the bare minimum yearly GIEP which ends up being me complaining and them saying that they're "working on it" or that they "only have so much in the budget" or that "pssa scores are more important" or that "title one kids need the extra help" blah blah. The main two problems are the superintendent and the curriculum advisor since both are special ed backgrounds with NO desire to do anything with Gifted children. So it's an uphill battle. I'm planning on having him independently evaluated this summer since a friend of mine here recently found out that her daughter had been evaluated incorrectly at our school...they had her labeled as "mildly retarded" and she's only dyslexic! Cyber schooling is sounding better and better.

Thanks Ania!

I printed the entire post out and am taking it with me to the meeting scheduled on tues.

Why does it seem like it's just SO much to ask that my son be educated to the best of his ability exactly like all the title one kids??

But thanks to ALL for the support. It means more than you know! <hugs>