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I know there are some parents familiar with this approach and I had a few questions.

I registered for an intensive five part on-line course in the Nutured Heart Approach.

The course was supposed to be available tomorrow but now the release has been delayed and the course won't be available until later in the month.

I was hoping to be familiar with the program earlier because next week I am meeting with my son's teacher to discuss the upcoming school year.

Can the strategies in the Nutured Heart Approach be used the classroom? If so, what suggestions could I make? I should note, they are willing to work with us and try different things with him. Coming to the meeting with suggestions won't put them on the defensive.

It absolutely can work in school...in fact I have a sheet of elem, middle and high school samples of credit systems and potential school rewards. The first and foremost caveat of the approach is "stand #1: I refuse to be drawn into energizing energy". Essentially, that you will not reward a child with strong emotions and reactions for their misbehavior. Glasser believes children are fascinated with our reactions....and will evoke them to get our "energy". Instead, he asks parents to take stand #2: "I refuse not to pull the child into success", by actively recognizing them in everydsy actions, by naming positive qualities, and by giving s pay-off when rules are not broken. Glasser suggests a credit system, point system where a child earn points for following rules, extra positive choices and completing chores. The points are cashed in for
things like Tv time, allowance, and special outings. Stand #3: "Here are the rules and here's what happens" is the final part. Glasser suggests time-outs given while a parent stays completely neutral...possibly followed by bigger consequences for bigger midbehavior. The trick is take away the energy payoff a child normally gets from misbehaving.

I can send you the credit chart if you PM me.

BTW...I think this approach is REALLY hard yo maintain longterm. Who wants to live by chart forever? I suggest getting familiar with 123 Magic as well. Glasser does not want parents to give warnings before consequences (especially energized and SHOUTED warnings). But I think the downfall of his system is that some kids are so extraordinarily impulsive that they cannot always catch themselves. I see this with my son who may do or begin any number of idiotic things (ride the dog, wash his hands in his water glass, float food in the dog's water bowl to test its buoyancy) merely because it seemed like a good idea right at the moment he conceived it. Giving nuetral warning counts helps him give pause to think things through and self-correct. But if I get emotional...then they payoff IS the counting.

123 Magic was suggested by a psychologist for my son. It's worked pretty well, and is a very simple system to use. We like it.

We ordered the Difficult Child seminar on DVD and will be watching it soon. I'm interested to hear what you think of their online workshop!

I have ordered the transforming the difficult child workbook, but I didn't know about the reward system.

I also don't believe that reward systems are ideal long-term, because the reward always needs to get bigger to have the same impact. It also means that you are creating false consequences for actions, as opposed to your child learning to make their own choices and accept the natural consequences that life offers for this. This way also gives the child the space to practice making choices and learning from their mistakes, which is something that my perfectionist control freak really is struggling with - but he is thriving with this approach. It's a lot harder and longer this way round, but I am seeing results slowly but surely that let me know my child is starting to consider possibilities before doing, that he is starting to recognise real life consequences without me imposing on his ability to choose for himself.

I do agree with the idea of not energising negative situations though - yelling, shouting, screaming, emotionally charged verbalising is not helpful, nor does it engender learning or co-operative behaviour. It also doesn't demonstrate the behaviours that you want your child to internalise and do - our example is more powerful than our words.

I look forward to getting the workbook and working through the rest of it.

Hey,
I know there is a lot of advice out there, but what has worked very well for us (at home) is a pretty much common-sense technique explained and taught by Positive Parenting Solutions (available online, and recommended by one of a long string of psychologists--the string is for various reasons). This is the basic idea we follow and it works great for DD8--you give the kid a choice whenever possible, discuss (or remind) what will happen with each choice, lay out the consequences of making a 'bad' choice, and let the natural/logical consequences follow! However, you *must* follow through promptly. We have done this and it has really helped give DD a sense of autonomy and responsibility, although it is definitely an ongoing process. But the technique seems to fit with us, and her.
Best of luck,
Dbat

We use this approach, but we only used the credit system for about 4 months. Lots of families never use the credit system.

The key is to energetically recognize all the small successes. Lots of gifted parents have enough perfectionism and intensity going that this isn't easy. But that's what makes it so powerful.

This approach never aims to eliminate kids from doing stupid things. So there is no need to give warnings because the goal isn't to prevent all misbehavior. The goal is to help the child develop inner resources so that they slow down and thing things through without adult guidance.

The 'punishment' is a really brief 'moment of reflection.' It was really hard for me to get in the habit of saying 'Stop' to my kid, because I remembered so vividly how much I hated being said 'Stop' to as a kid. But I have learned, slowly, how to say 'Reset' - which sort of means, 'You have crossed a line. Cease this behavior now. Recenter yourself.' And my son has learned to do this. Now I don't even say anything, I just break eyecontact, and he recenters.

What I particularly love is that I don't have to tell him what he boundary he crossed. He can figure that out himself. How cool is that?

My guess, Evemomma, is that what you call a warning is functioning very similarly to what I would call a reset. It sounds like it's working for you so that's great. You are keeping yourself from getting emotional over the negative stuff, and I'll bet you are giving the emotional payoff when the behavior is good. So to me, that's the heart of 'Transforming.'
Smiles,
Grinity

KJP - I'm so disappointed to hear that the Intensive will be delayed.
It can be used in the classroom, but I wouldn't ask the school to use it until you have it up and running at home. Not sure why, exactly.

If you have observed that your child needs a lot more positive energetic specific praise than other kids, tell them that.
If you have observed that your child 'gets a thrill' out of the emotional charge of negative attention, give an example, and ask them to make the negatives emotion-fee as possible.

Meanwhile - just keep noticing all the stuff your kid is doing right. You can say it aloud if you feel confident, or just smile and enjoy it in your mind. Our kids are supersensitive so just enjoying them quietly can be the right place to start. You don't have to wait for the online course. Start now! We'll help!

Smiles,
Grinity

What I really got out of it is that you're not trying to make them "behave next time", you're never going to give that one lecture or make that one punishment so memorable that they "think about it next time". What you are going to do is halt the spiral that humans tend to do after they mess up and you're going to make it a family habit on the parents side.
The reward system, I really butchered it, and it worked for a while and really gave us a good conversation starter for my husband's main gripe with the boy, which was, "you don't do what I say and yet you want me to do something when you ask". My butchery was that I made two coin purses and gave Wyatt eight quarters. If he Messed up I took one of his pieces of eight. If he had five pieces of eight he could ask for anything and maybe I'd say yes, maybe I'd say no. (play outside, go to the park, watch tv). If he had less than five pieces of eight the answer is "no". They get replaced every night unless he goes lower than 3 pieces left in which case he does something to earn them back.

I quit doing this because the book says don't do a credit system that takes away from the kid, I'm trying to figure out how to simplify the system in the book. Jack's mom posted a good system where you give a coin for every random increment (30 min) of time spent in good behavior, which is traded for tv, park, etc. That is more in line with TNH. I want to get more in line with the system because it's easy to share with other adults. The hubby liked the pieces of eight. When I explained the pieces of 8 to a neighbor (who asked how I discipline) he said i was grounding.

La Tex
Do you use the 'reset?'
Are you using the recognitions?
If you are doing both of those consistently, you may not need a credit system at all.
Or you can give him a penny everytime you give a recognition, and retire the day's pennys to a big jar at bedtime. The retired pennies wouldn't need to be used for anything, just a symbol to remind him of all the good choices he's made. Or you could let him add them up to a super reward, but my understanding is that the credit system is about 2 things, mainly:
1) To remind you to use the recognitions.
2) To create within you child the idea that he is doing so many things right. This is just like why people won't litter on a beautifully manicured lawn. If a person is 'almost' at a goal, they will find it most comfortable to work hard to get to the goal. Women who are judged to be close to our current idea of physical beauty spend more money on their appearance than women who would be judged to be farther away. (Someone told me that was studied, but I haven't got a link. I'd love one though.) I think the idea is called 'Cognitive Dissonance.' So if I think I'm a thoughtful kid who does things right, I feel creepy doing something thoughtless.

It's fine to 'ground' your child from this point of view. HG says that all punishments are a form of grounding, he thinks even spanking is mostly adversive because while you are being spanked, you aren't 'on life's playing field having fun.' Time outs are obviously grounding. So are 'sit there until you write 10 times, I shall not...' And if you want to keep grounding him until he's earned his 5 pennies for his purse, that's ok because it reminds you to recognize him at least 5 times, and gets him started on the right foot. But be sure to keep up the verbal recognitions even after he's earned his eight. It's like you are giving him an eight cent daily allowance.

There are hundreds of credit systems out there. Transforming is the only parenting approach I know where they recognize that most punishments that work pretty well for regular kids to help them 'learn a lesson' teach intense kids to misbehave more. Also that intense kids act out in order to get the energy jolt that they get while being punished, so that for this to work, one HAS to provide emotionally charged positive recognitions.

Imagine a kid who has eaten nothing but junk food their whole life. Living in a house with nothing but junk food. You can't just remove the junk food and expect the child to thrive. You have to go to the store and buy healthy food and get it to the table. Even if junk food is bad for a kid, no food at all is worse.

Remember http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_of_the_Mind Classic Trek Episode? I remember watching it as a kid and thinking 'yes, I've experienced that.' I think that's the sort of think our kids are feeling when they decide that 'junk attention' is better than no attention.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Grinity..
yes I would say the warning would be in line with reset. The neutral emotional approach I think is tantamount to any effective parenting approach. I am most familiar with Glasser' book and a training I attended years (sigh...I'm getting old) ago. So I'm sure that he may have reyoolef some areas since then. I would also assert that most "teach a lesson" punishments fail miserably with almost ANY kid. Lectures amount to wasted breath...and so much of what kids do needs to be practiced and repracticed before they get it right. Someone may have told me a multitude of times how to drive a stick shift, but until I go about trying it myself, I'll be going nowhere.

I'm so glad so many parents on here are so invested in finding a healthier way to reach their kids.

I agree that reward systems aren't ideal long-term. We used one from TTDC for a while, which helped calm down the household. We then transitioned to a more informal system, whereby when the child misbehaves, I bellow at him that his privileges are revoked, then give them back soon after if he toes the line. :|

I don't think the rewards in TTDC need to be increased in order to have the same effect, though. The way it works is that harmful stimuli are removed from the system, and the child is essentially empowered to make choices about how his day will go. If the child doesn't want privileges, the child can choose to misbehave. It's based on very gentle but sustained pressure and the idea that over time this will trigger a change, like using dripping water torture to convince a prisoner to conform. But in a nice way.

I don't know that the consequences are so false. Many rules under which parent punish children may not be natural or directly logical consequences, in terms of directly taking away the abused privilege or object etc., but sometimes there are no truly natural consequences to impose, just as raping a rapist is not a good or natural punishment.

What TTDC does, in part, is to create a behavioral currency that, when implemented correctly, can completely take the animus out of parental corrections. A child can learn from his mistakes in a thousand small ways without a huge deal being made about it, since the system when correctly implemented prevents overreactions by parents. For families engaged in daily battles this can be a huge emergency improvement, and allow breathing room for further tweaks.

La Texican...

Yeah reward systems are hard. The most structured ones seem to be best suited for seriously behavior disordered kids because they often have lost the intrinsic desire to please adults (or avoid dissapointment). Same can be said for kids who've dealt with serious trauma and/or attachment issues.

I think an approach is only as good as a parent can use it easily. If a child does not respond to ANY consequences, a strict system can help get a child motivated again. But of course, a reward system also only works if the child is already NOT getting the things they are to earn (think allowance...they often fail because money means nothing to kids - we forget to stop paying for their Redbox rentals or McDonald's smoothies, or Lipsmackers lipgloss because it's so ingrained in us providing for our kids).

Glasser's most effective reward is kids getting positive praise and attention from parents (something they actually may NOT be getting). I know I fall into the trap of only being negative...it's so hard!

Another drawback is that by teaching your child to covet pieces of eight, he may later choose to pursue a career in piracy on the high seas.

I don't think that the TTDC system is really complicated to administer. We had a sheet of things to check at the end of the day (anyone is free to PM me if they want a copy) and we would run down it in a couple of minutes at the end of the day. Certain types of severe misbehavior would suspend privileges immediately. I initially thought it would be complicated, but it really wasn't.

Exactly!

Yep...and sometimes we can't let our kids face the natural consequence of, say, playing in the street. Logical consequences (which relate to the issue in some way) sometimes need to be created instead (ie: your kids can't play out front anymore since they can't stay out of the street).
Our failure to be consistent with any approach id usually or downfall...what am I the most consistent with - why yelling comes easiest! Which is why (when I'm not careful) my kids can play me like a slot machine (spewing delicious and fascinating angry entertainment) when I'm not being vigilant

Good, then I'm going back to the pieces of eight because it was working well for us and we all three thought it was fair. The only time he had to earn his coins was if he didn't rein in a spiral, then it was community service to get it back over five. I just gave him his coins back every day, he didn't have to earn them unless he spiraled.

Re: the wiki link... Lmao @ brainwashing the kids into thinking they're awesome. Easy enough because I reallly think they are. Also, what I read in "Playful Parenting" is to make your eyes really big sometimes when you're looking at them. I don't like the way that makes my face look. I've seen it on a few other women. But it fit in with the TNH spiel of "show them you're paying attention when they're not doing anything terrible or extraordinary". Those big eye stares do seem to make a difference my kids feel. They are really young. The boy still always likes to literally say "looook AT Meeee!". (eating a bite of food?! wow).
I mentioned once I feel guilty that Espy never got my undivided attention like Wyatt did, and Wyatt had to share it after Espy came. My grandmother said the only way I could give my kids more attention is if I became their Siamese twin and she renamed my daughter Vel, which is short for Velcro because she was always stuck to my hip. It was in some parenting books, if you give them enough security when they're little they'll be brave enough to venture out and explore when they're older.

Luconu, your phrasing almost made me think of a code word for TNH discipline. I keep hearing "con animo" to mean with more enthusiasm I think the new code word in my house is "sin animo".

Anyone else having Dr. Strangelove flashbacks? XD

As is usually the case with generalizations, the above is often but not always true. There's a conflict dynamic that is all too common between adults, usually married, wherein one partner shuts down as a defensive mechanism. The vocal partner escalates their aggression, in an effort to get the quiet partner back into the discussion. The quiet one retreats further, the vocal one escalates yet again, and it becomes a destructive feedback loop. In this scenario, the vocal one is escalating not out of a need to "steal energy," but because of growing insecurity about the relationship. "Do you even care?"

And, the reason I bring this up is because I noticed my DD7 and I caught up in this same dynamic during a meltdown, where with my calm demeanor I was cast in the role of quiet one, and she played the vocal one. The meltdown was triggered by a new skill on the guitar she was having difficulty with. We gave her a few minutes of timeout to gather herself, and when I went to check on her it seemed she was getting worse, not better. I tried to talk her down from it, but she kept escalating further, and by the time she was shouting over me every single time I opened my mouth, I knew that this approach was going nowhere, and I needed to try something else.

So, I decided to poke the bear. I didn't get all shouty with her, but I did start making some deliberately inflammatory statements. "As long as you maintain that attitude, you are absolutely right, you will never learn to play this," etc. It gave her the reaction she was looking for, and by the time I suggested we immediately throw her guitar in the trash, she'd been given a new worry to short-circuit that feedback loop. The meltdown abruptly ended, a couple days later she initiated a guitar practice with those skills without being told to, and by the end of the week she was not only playing the chords passably well, but enjoying mixing them around to create her own tunes.

I wouldn't endorse using the "poke the bear" play on a regular basis, but it can be useful when the "don't energize the energy" play is backfiring.

We have been exlicitly labelling things "tantrums" and "meltdowns." Today he's having a tantrum, it's mild, but has been going on since 2:30 I got home feeling beat, and worried I wasn't handling it very well. Their dad took him 20 minutes ago, and he's already yelling. He's usually better at not yelling than me. But still, everytime he gets attention things escallate.

When he has meltdowns, it goes the other way, it escallates untill he gets attention.

The problem is I don't think it's either possible or desirable to ignore him long enough for it to be a real deterrant. I did that this morning, while trying to get his brother to sleep, because I had no real choice at the time. It took an hour before he was quiet enough that the little one could sleep. But it worked. Ultimately, he cleaned his room on his own initiative to earn my attention back (wich worked darned stinkin' well).

I worry that any consequence serious enough to be a deterrant is abusive. Like ignoring a 3 yr old for an hour.

Positive re-enforcement is hard because he feels any absence of positive re-enforcement as punitive. Like if I pause when turning the pages of a book to take a sip of coffee, or to pass the little one another toy.

And then I worry that he has a genuine disorder of some type. But I think he's generally subtantially better behaved than agemates. It's just incredibly difficult to adjust his behavior, including for reasons of safety.

I like the idea that people should be intrinsically motivated, but can that get to the level of a disability?

I notice he's in his room now, telling me tearfully that it isn't fair at all. I offered attention if he stopped three things, and he immediately stopped. I guess I gotta go now. He wants attention -- just more than we can give.

ARG.

RE: sweetpeas post- 1 2 3 Magic was also recommended to us by my son's preschool. It's worked great for him, and our other two children. It's super simple to use.

I would argue that those who are dealing with a shut-down partner ARE trying to evoke a reaction...any reaction. Yes, I totally agree that the reaction isn't pleasant. But this is much the same for a kid (like my DS) who continues to kick the back of my carseat until I've blown up. He may not like the reaction...but he was compelled to draw it out of me.

Your description of the shut-down couple is very accurate. You may enjoy the writings of Gottman Insstitute and their research with couples. It is educational and fascinating.

I have started the online intensive course I mentioned in the OP. There are five parts and I finished part one today. It is basically HG's voice following along with presentation slides. It was about two hours long.

I like the theory behind the approach. I think it really makes a lot of sense. I just wish the language wasn't so - fluffy. Not sure if that is the word I am looking for but all the talk of "energy flow" and "inner greatness" and "juicy relationships" seems to detract from program's credibility.

I still plan to use the approach. I might just tell my more critical/skeptical husband about it and only have him watch specific portions.

As for using it at school, that ended up working itself out. Our OT went to the meeting to address sensory accommodations and she brought up NHA as well. Her son goes there too, she uses this approach (kept up with the credit system the entire school year) so his teachers were already familiar with it. My son's teacher was not familiar with it specifically but she knows the OT's son had been having behavior issues which have drastically improved. She seemed really mellow so I don't think she would be one to energize his negativity anyway.

Those were my feelings about the book-- some mystical New Age mumbo-jumbo that made no sense as an explanation for some remarkably good horse sense.

KJP
I'm glad to hear that the course is useful. Sorry to hear that it isn't in a form that is likely to be so usefu to your DH. The good news is that once your DH sees you putting it into practice he won't need to read about it. Just keep positively energising your DH when makes efforts in the right directionn.

I like the spiritual stuff but I think the clearest presentation of the ideas is in Lisa Bravo 's workbook version of Transforming.

Weirdly I'm currently reading a textbook on the psychology of persasion and there is a discusion of the brainwashing of US prisioners of war by Communist Chinese durinng the Korean War. The similarities to this parenting .method jumped off the page to me: celebrating small compliances,reduced harsh punishments, and manipulating the targets self image and then waiting for the persoons behavior to catch up.

I personally would rather think about fluffy terms like inner wealth as it sounds nobler but whatever works, right?

My copy is being delivered tomorrow or tuesday. I look forward to reading it and seeing how it can be integrated together with our new parenting style to help Aiden find his own path with his intensities.

KJP - How is the process going for you? Is your son responding? Did your DH get the gist of it? Which parts are easy and which parts are difficult?

I just got some School Success Solutions info on a free webcourse in this method, and it caused me to wonder how things are going? How are they going?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thanks for checking on us Grinity. I am still working through the course. I have my babysitter and husband on board with making a big deal of being good and taking the emotion out of consequences. My husband seems to have the most trouble with taking the emotion out of consequences but at least at this point he is trying. We have not started any sort of credit or point system.
I'll keep you posted.

I don't think that the credit system is key while you are just getting started. Don't rush it. It's better after the initial enthusiasm has worn off, to remind the parent to acknowledge what is going well.

It's great that your husband and babysitter are on board. The excitement starts when the time outs are introduced. They are awesome, but hard to get the hang of.

Is the course interactive at all?
smiles,
Grinity

I also find that my DD goes crazy when I remaim really calm and don't get embroiled in the struggle at all. She will do almost anything to get my attention/energy back. In fact, on a few such occasions I have seen her come close to hitting me. I think it's quite scary to her when we disengage.

After DD4 brought us to our knees again this weekend, I remembered after one particualarly bad evening that she had some caffienated soda--usually forbidden--earlier that day. Never again!

To top it off, one of our old friends announced they were expecting their SEVENTH child. They sent along a photo of the first six all lined up and smiling. I tried and failed to envision us surviving having a third child similar to our first two. Then I comforted myself with the thought that they couldn't handle ours either, to fend off any creeping notions that we may simply just be bad parents.