Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Raw WISC-IV Results - so discouraged

After waiting, cajoling and negotiating with our insurance company, my son is finally seeing a neuropsych this afternoon.

I'm a little nervous because of the process - this psychiatrist meets with a parent and then does the testing all in one sitting. I'm concerned it might be boilerplate or not thorough, but I will go in with an open mind and just see how it goes.

Thanks to you all, I'll have a lot better questions to ask him beforehand.

All I can say is that I am SO frustrated.

The neuropsych basically said it is going to be nigh unto impossible to get an accurate IQ score for my son because of how "cloudy" things are. He said there are significant auditory processing issues that come into play and that he "over thought" his answers and ended up getting several wrong because of giving too detailed of an answer (how are green and red the same? Answer they wanted - both are colors. My son? Both are on the light spectrum, blah, blah, blah). But that answer is wrong on the IQ test. UGH.

So, according to this WISC-IV, the FSIQ is 92 - almost twenty points less than it was two years ago. He said he's sure the actual IQ is much higher but that we likely won't get it on paper - ever - to get my son qualified for gifted.

I am so downhearted tonight and discouraged about my son's experience next year of more textbooks and workbooks and all the things that go to his deficits instead of allowing him to excel at the things he's good at.

Here are the raw scores:

Block Design - 38
Similarities - 26
Digit Span - 15
Picture Concepts - 19
Coding - 43
Vocabulary - 39
Letter-Number Seq - 16
Matrix Reasoning - 22
Comprehension - 20
Symbol Search 25

Verbal Comprehension Sum 28 / VCI 96
Perceptual Reasoning Sum 29 / PRI 98 (he said this was down by 23 from his last test)
Working Memory Sum 18 / WMI 94
Processing Speed Sum 16 / PSI 88
Full Scale Sum 91 / FSIQ 92

"He said there are significant auditory processing issues that come into play and that he "over thought" his answers and ended up getting several wrong because of giving too detailed of an answer (how are green and red the same? Answer they wanted - both are colors. My son? Both are on the light spectrum, blah, blah, blah). But that answer is wrong on the IQ test. UGH."

Oh no! My DD had a similar problem with listing different colors: my DD "magenta, fuscia, burnt umber, cerillion etc" when they wanted: "light blue, blue, dark blue"

How old is he? It took us a month to get the FSIQ and other scores after the testing so I wonder at how they got them so quickly.

Can you address the auditory processing issues and teach him /explain some of the over-thinking concepts and retest?

Way back when my DD was testing for the GT program, they did a lot more than just an IQ test, they talked with her and really looked at how deep she was, not just check-box answers. She was 4.5 yrs old and understood math but didn't know what "=" meant so she added "11" to every question and although she got every single one wrong they figured out what she did and she got in anyway.

I would disregard these results, it's obvious your son is operating way beyond the norms and you and the tester both know it. Can you talk to the school about this?

I am so sorry for the disappointing results, I hope you canfind another way.

Nik - the issue is that our state (NM) requires a score of 130 to qualify for the gifted program or a score of 120 with a diagnosed exceptionality with an IEP. He has an IEP, and his last IQ test two years ago was 119. How it is 92 now is beyond me.

The goal was to get him out of regular ed where he is doing 95% workbook, worksheet and textbook work in his classes - all things that work directly against his deficit of dysgraphia and dyslexia.

He gave me the raw scores when I left. I won't have the full report for about 2-3 weeks.

Oh Lisa...so dissapointing! ((Hugs))
Can you use the IEP to get him away from the worksheets?
Can you treat the CAP,dysgraphhia or dyslexia? What is the school doing for him?
Is a private school or homeschooling a possibility?
Love and more love
Grinity

Curses on the red tape bureocacies with a misspelling and the fleas from a thousand camels. Off topic, but I tried your chorizo stuffed chicken. I think next time I'll ritz cracker bread it and oven fry it. How else can we get the healthy off it? Yum!

ABQMom,
I don't know what to say about the frustration, except that my DD was recently tested and they said there was just too much of an extreme gap between her Verbal Comprehension and Perceptual Reasoning (high) and her Working Memory and Processing speed (low) that they just wouldn't calculate the full scale.

So, that doesn't help you but I feel your pain. The school says she reads on a 5th grade level (she just finished 3rd) but the WIAT says 12th grade. Her math fluency seems to be a concern for her level of intelligence. I'm still trying to figure it out amoungst the excitement of summer vacation and fresh strawberries...she just wants to be free! So do I.

ABQ, if they did all the testing in one day, do you feel they were comprehensive? Is there achievement testing that would show what your child can do? Or is he likely to test all over the place on all tests?

Is there another school where the style and content would meet his needs better?

Feeling for you.

DeeDee

Grinity - the neuropsych said his goal in the recommendations will be to provide the right kind of learning for Thomas within the scope of what we're allowed in the public school system, so I think he is planning to use the IEP for this purpose.

LaTexican - hee! Thanks for the feedback on the recipe. And, yes, the original goal WAS healthy. If you want to bread it, you can use crackers or dried bread crumbs (let bread sit out overnight and then pulse in a food processor). Dredge in beaten raw egg, roll in the crumbs, and fry away.

bzylzy - the neurpsych said he couldn't believe the poor quality of the drawings - that it is very obvious. He was appalled that he wasn't still in OT and said he'd be recommending more, so I'm hoping that will help as well.

DeeDee - the entire testing took 1.5 hours total. He did already have the two reports from my son's previous testing, but I asked about additional testing as well. The neuropsych said he felt that any additional testing would be just as scattered. I wasn't sure whether I should push for more or accept that is valid, and after the results, well, I was too overwhelmed to argue or use logic or anything that even remotely resembled logic.

I'm sure that it is much too soon, but did you get the scaled scores for each of the subtests within each index and not just the raw scores? I'm sure that a lot of us are more familiar with those scaled scores and I don't think that it is simple to convert from one to the other b/c you need a chart that includes the child's age band.

The fact that he mentions scatter, and those raw scores look scattered, makes me wonder if it is possible to ascertain what parts of the test were the most impacted and whether they are the same parts that he had difficulty with previously. I'm sorry that this was such a disappointment, but glad that you didn't have to pay a ton for the testing at least .

No, Cricket, no scaled score yet.

I'm hoping the report has some useful insight that will help us. He said my son did significantly worse on some parts of the test than he did two years ago such as perceptual reasoning. He asked if there were significant changes in his life to account for it, such as a death in the family, etc. but there weren't. But he also said it was a mystery why the score changed to that extent, so I'm hoping there isnt going to be a report full of mystery.

When the kid answers correctly but not correctly according to the answer key, the evaluator is supposed to say something like, "what is another way they are similar?" or "tell me more about that." I'm wondering if this evaluator did that? Did the same person test your son last time?

That aside, I would be extremely concerned that your son is not in an appropriate school situation. My 2E son's GAI went up by 20 points after 3 years of intensive homeschooling and then by another 15 points after another two years of the same. His FSIQ started out below 100 (and his GAI was just a little higher).

I would think that an inadequate school situation could produce the opposite results.

I hope you find some answers.

Kai - I have no idea how the evaluator handled the questions or responses. I was relegated to the waiting room.

Thanks for giving me hope that things can improve.

After the evaluator gave me the sheet with the raw scores, he could tell I was upset and asked why. I told I'm it was not an accurate picture of my son's intellect. So then he asked me why I want so badly for my son to be gifted when he obviously wasn't. His bias in that reply has made me skeptical that he can differentiate between results that are skewed due to whatever issues are going on beyond the dysgraphia and what is an accurate assessment of his abilities.

When I told him there was no way my son had an IQ of 92, he got defensive and said, "Are you really going to challenge me and question my results?"

I told him that yes, I was, because I'd known my kid for twelve years and had raised two gifted kids besides this one and had managed to stay married to a profoundly gifted husband for almost 25 years so I had some relevance to bring to my assumption that the results were not accurate.

After that, the neuropsych backed off when he realized my reaction wasn't about the ego of wanting a gifted kid but of wanting appropriate help for my son. He acknowledged that the dysgraphia and dyslexia would come into play on parts of the test, that it was obvious my son had an auditory processing issue (news to me) and that there were other factors at play for which he didn't have clear answers, he talked about the scatter, etc. - so I still can't figure out why he was so defensive. He also pointed out that my son "over-thought the test which caused him to do poorly both due to speed and unacceptable answers".

Hearing your own experience of the GAI changing that significantly helps bolster my courage to keep pushing for better answers and accomodations so my son can realize his own potential.

Did the neuropsych give you a referral for an auditory processing eval? It sounds like that will be the next step - as well as thinking through how that impacted the test scores.

FWIW, when our kids had neuropsych evaluations they lasted at least 6 hours and spanned most of the day. The WISC part of the testing didn't take long, but they also had achievement testing and other tests to assess executive function / visual-motor integration / fine motor skills etc (partially depending on what showed up on the IQ testing).

Will you be going back for a follow-up parent meeting once you have the full report from the neuropsych? When you do, ask specifically how each challenge (CAPD, dysgraphia, dyslexia) impacts your ds and what type of testing (and where you can get it) can help you better define what specifically is causing each or how the challenges impact your ds.

Also post the scaled scores for us once you have them. I don't know enough about raw scores to be able to tell anything from them.

Best wishes,

polarbear

It doesn't sound like this neuro was very experienced with gifted children... I am sorry it didn't go better for you both! Perhaps you could look around for another tester who has experience with gifted & 2E kids and have the Stanford Binet or WJ-III administered?

Polarbear - I haven't received anything from him yet, and, no, there is no follow-up appointment although I did schedule one today with the first psychologist we saw that referred us to this man. It felt very much like this was the minimal of effort expended with very little willingness to go beyond. He only spent about 15 minutes with me after the testing, and I think that is all I'll have with him. I would never recommend him to someone else.

I'll definitely post the scores once I have them.

Epoh - when we can afford to have testing outside of our insurance-approved list, I will definitely follow through with more testing from someone else. It runs well over $1000, though, and right now that's just not possible.

I hate those situations.
((hugs))
Grinity

I am so sorry you're having to deal with this. The evaluator sounds like a piece of work.

Thanks, you all. It is one of those things I can't talk about to anyone else other than here.

Wow Lisa, I'm so sorry! How incredibly frustrating - ugh!

polarbear

My son had a similar issue - our psychologist couldn't calculate his IQ because the spread between his highest score and lowest score was so vast that it was consistent with only 7% of the population. sigh. IQ isn't everything, but it would have been nice...

The test results are invalid due to the neuropsych's obvious lack of expertise in testing gifted children. The discrepancy with prior testing is no mystery, regardless of the accuracy of those prior results.

CCN - you know, I think I would have preferred to hear that we couldn't get a valid IQ rather than having an IQ on his report that is so far off the track. Did this mean you also were not able to get gifted services because of the spread?

I believe the same thing, lucounu, but I'm wondering if there is a way to file a complaint or protest with the insurance to request a second opinion since we can't afford right now to pay for testing on our own.

ABQMom - Yes, unfortunately (and that is a going point... that no IQ score can be better than an invalid one - I hadn't thought of that).

So my son had no "gifted" IQ on record, and yet he can read/write /speak two languages even though his receptive language test score was an abysmal 0.5 (percentile). There are "typical" kids in his grade 2 French Immersion class who aren't reading any English yet (they start formal instruction in grade 3), and he reads English above grade level, as well as reading French (at a grade 1 level). Yet he's 0.5 in receptive language ability. Hmmm.

The district psychologist kept saying "that's interesting." Yes, yes it is.

Perhaps, but he wouldn't be able to take the same test again. Do you think that the SB would play to his strengths such that you could try that one if insurance would be willing to pay for a retest?

FWIW, I do believe that the RIAS is the only IQ test with which I am familiar that flat out tells the tester not to figure a FSIQ at all if there is huge score discrepancy. The WISC tells you that you should use caution in interpreting results, but not to avoid figuring the FSIQ all together. Both of my kids had huge spreads and still had GAIs and FSIQs figured despite scores that varied from 8-19 within one index or PRI and VCI indices that were hugely apart from one another.

Unfortunately, people who are likely to be using the results for figuring out your child's needs often don't know enough to realize what they are looking at when the scores come in wacky like that.

Thanks so much for the additional info, you all. I guess my trepidation is based in wondering what in the world I say in my request for a "second opinion" ...

This evaluator failed to provide additional support on questions that were correct but not the answer the test was looking for and failed to take into account the scatter in evaluating the validity of the score?

Any idea on how to complain?

So out of the blue, my son says, "You know, that psychiatrist didn't have a sense of humor at all."

My heart sunk, and I wondered what in the world he'd done that triggered that observation about the tester.

Seems that when the interview started, the tester asked him where he lived. My son said he knew the tester was looking at his sheet with all of his information so thought the question redundant. So, he decided to have fun with it. He told the tester he was living in an apartment in student housing across from the University. He said he told him what classes he was taking and who a couple of his professors were - all made up, of course. He said the psychiatrist never looked up until then and finally just raised his eyebrows and looked at him. My kiddo said that when he laughed and said, "Obviously not. It's on your file," the tester didn't smile or give any response.

Should I be concerned? Should I email the tester and address this or just wait for the report since I'm going to ask for a second opinion anyway?

We finally received the final report. I started a new thread with the scores here:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/134573.html#Post134573

I know you have another thread now, but it is a shame to get what sounds like a 'dud' of a tester... keep moving forward.

Thanks, Chris. I was jut so grateful to get the testing and wanted answers, I wasn't thorough enough in researching the evaluator. Lesson learned, but sorry it was at my son's expense.

Danger, Will Robinson!
This is just the hugest of red flags for me, both professionally and personally. If a practitioner cannot stand being questioned, they're putting way too much of their own ego into the situation to remain competently professional.

My other thought-- and forgive me, I haven't read ahead so it may be answered already-- is whether it's necessary to use the WISC-R. If you have suspected auditory processing issues, why not a non-verbal test like Raven's? Or if you're dealing with a kid who is already assumed to be gifted, the old Stanford-Binet still has considerable value in determining precisely how gifted it is that we're looking at.

Does your school system not pay for this? There's a federal mandate to identify gifted children, which of course requires testing. And if a parent has significant disagreement with testing results (like your situation would be had the school sent you to this guy) you should have the right to request an Independent Educational Evaluation. This means that you may ask that a professional, competent evaluator who is not employed by the school system conduct another evaluation of your child.

If you request an IEE of your child, the school must provide you with information about where you can obtain such an evaluation. (Larger districts like ours usually already have payment set-ups in place with a number of independent providers, and those independent providers know what the district is looking for by way of documentation-- though some people go outside that list entirely.)

We refer to Youngest DD's score as the total number followed by "with a fifty point verbal suppression". It sort of puts things in perspective, especially in meetings with teachers. At my snarkiest (usually during bad IEP meetings), I think of it in terms of "yeah, lady, and even when she doesn't talk she's smarter than you are".

I saw your post about CAPD or APD; Dr. Silverman recommended to us the Able Kids Foundation. It might be an additional resource for you.