Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments class size

We learned from our principal that at our local public school, next year K-3 will be at 31 kids and 4th-6th grade will be at 34 kids! Right now, it is 25 and 32 kids, respectively. We are in California where the budget crisis has really slammed the schools.
Part of me is really worried, obviously, for my kids, but then I think, well, they are way above grade level, the gifted program starts for my older one in 4th grade, hopefully it is irrelevant.
What is your class size where you are?

About 20 in the elementary grades, at a public school in a Boston suburb.

22 kids in a gifted pull-out program. But that's because that's all the 2nd graders in the district who qualified - other classes in the older grades go up to 30.

16

At our public elementaries it's roughly 22 kids K-1st, 27 kids 2nd-5th. At our public middle it's closer to 35-40 kids. At our private elementary and middle it's 19-20 kids.

Our G&T is 28 for both classes in 2nd grade. But the gen ed classes are 23. There is much demand for our G&T, best in the district so kids in the district, and out of zone, can get in.

Our PTA pays for assistant teachers. We also pay for the art, chess, Spanish and underwrite part of the music teachers.

I'm not sure. We just pre-registered for pre- k and they're waiting to see how many kids show up to see if they're going to have one class or two this year.

We are in California and I think DD8's G&T class is 31. We heard from a friend that class sizes at her old school might increase to 40 next year. I find that hard to believe as the classrooms are already packed.

I counted 34 chairs at her school's 4th grade class. I really don't know how a teacher can teach that many children much less keep them all in line.

She's entering 4th next year and we know layoffs are happening again. We were told that if the number of 4th grade G&T children in 4th exceeds the limit, they will have to hire a second teacher, and so class sizes will decrease. Or they'll just pack them to the brim.

We keep threatening to home school but she's socially very active and very happy, finally.

Our Kindergarten in Minneapolis is going to be 29 and the early elementary grades go up in size a few kids.

We have a 2e kid with an IEP for behavior issues coming out of preschool. We diligently discussed this with the school and our ECSE case worker since Kindergarten will either be a qualified success or a raging failure depending on the teacher's style. After carefully considering all of this... they assigned DS to the class of the new K teacher they haven't hired yet Well it should be quite an adventure for everyone involved...

15 in DS's private school class at present; the school imposes a maximum of 16 in all classes. State schools here (Scotland) have a maximum of 25 in P1 (K to you) classes, usually in the high 20s thereafter I think.

TBH I find it hard to be excited about the differences in the 25-30 range, which seems to be where the political interest is here. Differentiation is, I think, more of a reality here than it seems to be in the US (teachers are assessed on it routinely) but it usually just means there are high, average and low challenge versions of each lesson. Being more individual than that is already pretty impractical once you have 25 in a class, it seems to me. My feeling is that 15 is much better.

I really wonder how many children they can jam into a classroom. Sigh... Our school has a full-time, self-contained gifted program so at least for 4th grade on up, it will be just kids in the gifted program. Hard to know if that matters anyway.
For kindergarten, we were at a private school with only 10 kids per class, and it wasn't that impressive. It probably partly depends on the quality of the teacher and the other students too.

There are currently 24 kids in DS's 3rd grade GT class. Last year, there were 29. I think the district will go up to 30 with special approval. It depends a lot on the teacher and the particular group of kids, I think, how well things go with a bigger class. DS had a much better year last year with 29 kids than when he was at his previous school with 23 kids. Of course, the previous school was a regular classroom with a huge range of abilities, whereas the current school is for HG kids, much smaller range to teach.

From our district's website:
Target Student/Teacher Ratio
20:1 first, second & third grade/acceptable range 18-24
24:1 fourth grade/acceptable range 22-28
28:1 fifth & sixth/acceptable range 26-32
*150 students per day/per teacher
*Class size varies depending upon subject

For the gt classes, the class size used to be smaller. Now, to avoid misguided charges of elitism and avoid drawing unwanted attention from the budget hounds, the gt class sizes seem be in the same range as the traditional classes.

DS6 goes to a charter STEM school that limits its calls size to 20. This stays the same all the way up through 8th grade. The public K classes that I observed the year before DS6 started school were around 28 per class if I recall correctly. They tried to "differentiate" in those classrooms but like ColinsMum said- it really ended up being a "high" "medium" and "low" version of the same lesson. None of them was even remotely aimed at DS's level (and that was a year BEFORE he started K). His teacher this year was able to do things on a much more individual level than we would have seen in the huge public school classes. We're VERY happy with our school.

Our kindergarten class size topped out at 21 when my kids started school, but I think it's increased since then. The # of students per class goes up again as the grade levels increase. My youngest dd is in a private school which aims for the same # per class as the public schools and my oldest (ds) is in a private school which caps the class size at 18 (but he's been in a class that's less than 18). Although we've never had our kids in a classroom as large as the new OP's classroom will be, our experience has been that the teacher's style and personality, combined with the make-up of the students in the classroom are more of a challenge for a student who needs differentiation than class size. DS had a real mixed bag of experience with different teachers (and many of the same students in his class) through elementary school. There were a few kids who had behavior challenges that some of the teachers were able to handle, other teachers weren't on top of it and weren't in control. The teachers who weren't in control tended to have rather chaotic classrooms, and the teachers who had an ability to cope with challenges in the classroom were able to differentiate no matter the classroom size (if they believed in differentiation)... which is another hurdle - the school my kids were in for elementary tended to want everyone to be right there in the middle of the crowd in terms of achievement and ability. It took me a long time to realize though, that even with differentiation, our ds was so far out there in terms of thinking differently and grasping concepts quickly that differentiating to his ability level just wasn't practical in a regular classroom.

polarbear

19 in first grade. The teachers' union contract mandates no more than 25 per class. As soon as one classroom hits 26 they are required to hire a new teacher and split the classes in that grade, even if it happens after the school year is underway.

Believe it or not, the research findings on this are not that strong. I should see if I can look them up. I know it sounds unbelievable and my instincts tell me otherwise, too. However, my DD got a better education in a class of 18 than in a class of 11.

ETA: OKay, so there is one large study (Project STAR) that showed some decent effects for grades K-3. Other than that, the effects are quite mixed. Florida implemented a class size limit at great expense. Thus far there have been no clear positive effects: http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/press-releases/pr-pepg-research-may10

The STAR project seemed to involve classes I'd think of as genuinely small (13-17) - is it maybe the case that some of the other research that hasn't shown an effect has been looking at larger classes? That's what I remember from some of the research I've seen, although it isn't something I've looked into properly. I think it would be tricky, because clearly small classes are going to be automatically better - at best, they might be better if the teacher takes advantage of the extra time/student available, and that takes time and effort to learn (if it's possible at all).

My own impression/hunch of how the small classes work at DS's school is that the most important thing is not really what happens in class, so much as the effect on the teachers' planning and general energy level. If it is easier to teach a smaller class, more of the teacher's energy is left for addressing the difficult problems we want teachers to address, like how best to help each child. DS's school also has a no-homework policy which surely also helps (less marking!) - but the thing I most appreciate there is that they do seem to have time and energy to be genuinely interested in thinking about how to help DS. I can't help but think that if each teacher was dealing with twice as many children, this would be less the case!

I have also heard/read that. I think there must be some threshold size for a class where if you go beyond it, there are just too many kids in the class. 35? 40? 100? Where does it end??
We had 25 kids per class this year in grade school and 20 the year before. I haven't noticed a difference in terms of the quality of teaching. There will be 35 kids in the gifted 4th grade class next year; my son is two grade levels ahead so hopefully it doesn't matter.
California ranks 47th out of 50 states in funding schools, and it is pretty obvious. Our school has little PE, so we pay $2000 a year for the swim team. There is little art, so we pay for art lessons at the local art center. There is little music, so we pay for private piano lessons, etc. I don't know how the kids do whose parents can't/aren't able to pay for the extras that we do.

Clarifying--you meant to type "aren't" going to be automatically better, right?

The FL class size amendment keeps classes at 18 for K-3, IIRC, so they're right around the same size as the STAR project classes. I read some pretty valid criticisms of the STAR project--it was not blinded, so teachers in the small classes may have been working harder to produce an effect, and parents could and did get their kids moved to the smaller classes on request.

A similar lack of effect occured in CA after they reduced class size, but it did not go down to STAR levels. Actually, aren't CA class sizes quite large?? Maybe they only did it in some areas. One theory there is that there was a paucity of qualified teachers when the sudden rush on hiring occurred after they decided to reduce class size. One thing we absolutely DO know is that teacher quality matters--a lot. The research on that is very strong.

$2000 a year for the swim team! Holy crow!

Wow some of these class sizes are huge! We are in public schools.
DD5 had 18 in K along with an extra assistant for the special needs kiddos
DS12 has anywhere from 10 to 22 depending on the class at the middle school.
DS 19 had 25 to 30 in the HS.

I think these are huge class sizes! We do frequently have an aide, and there is huge parent participation at our school. Actually, our public school is ranked in the top 10% in California. It's an affluent area, and many parents donate alot of money. Our PTA last year raised over $100,000.
Yes, I think $2000 a year for 2 kids ($1000 per kid) is alot for a swim team! But I think most sports are much more, at least out here. They both swim, 12 months a year, 4 nights a week for an hour each practice.
How much do other sports cost where you are?
Out here, soccer is really huge. Football, etc.

Our sports are free with exception of specific items personal items, like shoes or mouth guards. Football, Soccer, Lacrosse, Baseball, and basketball are big. My kids have been in Soccer, Track, Cross Country, Baseball, Swimming, and Football over the years. Really the cost was only the shoes, mouth guards, shin guards, and swimsuits. The school provides any of the major equipment for football and other sports requiring major equipment.


I know many schools out here (Ohio) charge, it just depends on the district. I happen to very lucky our district is manage financially like a well run business. We have not had deficits issues like others. When budge changes are coming they are normally 3 or 4 years a head of the curve with planning the cost reductions. Our town is the same. I can't say neighboring communities are equally managed. The vast majority seem to be suffering majors cuts and continued deficits looming.

We are in a more affluent area, not the top but comfortable. The parents and community are huge supporters of the schools. Our PTO generally has raised over 100k a year also. Which often funds new playgrounds or equipment in the buildings. Here the voters have to approve any additional funds to the district. Our district asked for 1 operating increase in the last 10years. The voters have never turned them down. I think the district's transparent and well managed budgets make the community comfortable with giving more when asked.

I am always aware of how lucky we are to be in our district. It's just hard to imagine meeting the needs of any kid with 35 or 40 of them in class, never mind outliers on either end. I don't envy the teacher in that position. I can't imagine my kids doing well in that environment. It would make it a lot harder for them. They've all had real hero teachers at times that made a huge difference in their lives. I can't imagine the teachers being able to give the time, attention, and care my kids have gotten with numbers like those. I can get annoyed with the school at times for the hoops we've had to jump through but I know it could be a million times worse.

In my stepson's school district in Oregon, kindergarten class sizes will increase next year from 21 to 34 students, grades 1-5 from 25 to 35 students, middle schools from 30 to 38 students, and high schools estimate class sizes will average 44 students.

We live in Washington. Here, class sizes have been around 20-25 students. DD will be in an accelerated program for gifted students next year and class size is capped. (The class is filled based on test scores and there is a waiting list.)

My daughter's elementary school PTO has less than $5000 in its coffers, IIRC. Total. Yup.

Sports and clubs through school run about $100-200/year.

As a teacher I have firsthand experience that smaller classes (we had specially small freshman English and math) leads to much stronger teacher connections and learning experiences. It's not universally true, probably, but I could really know each student and inspire them, do fun work because I could get the supplies and handle the load... I'm so grateful DD's charter caps at 20 for K and 22 for 1-8. It's a crazy amazing benefit.

My dad also teaches in CA and the class size growth (along w banning pets, field trips, dictating instruction etc even tho his kids score amazingly high compared to his school... Sigh) have gotten so big in primary! In secondary were up to at least 35 (if you had 34 you were grateful, and the times I had odd small classes it was amazing!) but most often 40 and easily 45 in AP.

I should mention that my kids swim on a private, nationally ranked, year round swim team. They are in grade school, so that is why we pay fees. All of the sports affiliated with the junior or high schools are free. We do not pay for those.

John Hattie, director of the research institute at the Melbourne Graduate School of Education (based at one of Australia's top ranked universities, Melbourne University). His research is interesting and has shown that class size matters, but teacher technique matters more. In a media interview he explains: "Many simply can't accept that small class sizes shouldn't be a top priority. Professor Hattie surprises them with his research, which found teachers talk more in small classes. "All the things that you think would be better in small classes, it's the opposite. Rather, it's, 'They're going to listen to me better'," he says. "If you take a teacher of [a] class of 30 and put them in a class of 15, they teach the same way. Now what that says to me is that if you are going to reduce class sizes you need to reteach the teachers."

From: http://www.theage.com.au/national/e...hought-20120309-1upjx.html#ixzz1xHHT0BKB

(I could only find PowerPoints of his research, or media commentary but I haven't had a chance to look in any journal databases.)

Ah! This makes so much sense. When DD was in a very small class, I assumed she would get a lot of one on one attention, but she looked at me like I had two heads when I asked about that.

I can understand the actual standing in front and teaching part but isn't the teaching role undermined when you expect the teacher to handle 30% homework review?

And in class time. When DD has a publishing party coming up, they have the drafts, the edits, the final. In between, she conferences with the teacher to go over what she has done. And if it is non-fiction, her fact finding. If you have 30% more students, it is a lot more time. When we pay for the assistant teacher, she takes the HW out of the folders, marks them, puts new HW sheets, in. We have red folders for parent communication. Those have to be checked and school flyers or information gets put in.

There is a lot more than just the "teaching" part.

I think one of the reasons there has been no clear cut positive effects in FL is that at the same time the state has changed the end zone for teachers by implementing a bunch more end of course exams, changing the FCAT and implementing a new teacher evaluation system - all of which has the teachers here going in circles trying to get it all sorted out. The other issue for smaller schools is that they have had to deny access to some honors classes for bright kids because they don't have the money to hire another teacher to teach another section, but can squeeze the kids into other non-honors classes where there is often times more room.
DD is having to take 2 classes through virtual school next year because there is no space for her in the classes because of class size restrictions. (The fines for the schools that break the law are pretty steep.)
I know as a science teacher it is virtually impossible to successfully do labs with classes larger than about 22 because the amount of equipment the school usually has was based on having a smaller class size, so the more kids in a class the more per group, which leads to less active participation by more kids, and having to skip some of the more complicated labs because of the dangers of having too many bodies in a small space. The safety laws down here actually set the maximum number of kids per science lab based on the size available to move around in the lab area. Most rooms are the size for 24, but with class size laws, most typically have 25. If someone were to get hurt, the science teacher would be held personally responsible because of the way the law is written, as opposed to the school being responsible because they put the extra kid in the class against, often against the teachers better judgement.