Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Exhausted and glad I found this place...

I'm the mom of a 9.5 year old daughter. Never had her formally tested. She goes to small, private school that we love, and all of her teachers have referred to her as "gifted" over the years, and every checklist or criteria for giftedness I have seen is a fit for her...the good, bad and the ugly

Essentially, I come to you now because I am at my wit's end parenting her. She exhausts me. She wears me down. I'm a special education teacher,with two masters' degrees, so I am not without skills and strategies, but I am often finding myself at the end of my rope in dealing with her. Her language and reasoning is sophisticated beyond her years, she is relentless when she wants something (or doesn't want something) bordering on obsessive. Her "smart" remarks, or way of "beating us at our own game" when we try to reason and negotiate with her are unnerving. You can't even punish the child, or take away privileges, because she reasons and rationalizes about why it doesn't matter.

At this point, I am fearful for my relationship with her as she approaches her teen years. As I said to my husband, at this age she stomps upstairs and locks herself in her room when furious; in 6 or 8 years she could be stomping out of the house and jumping into a boyfriends car. I worry that if I can't manage her effectively now, things are only going to get worse as we enter the teens.

I also worry for her, because she often just doesn't seem happy I wonder if it's too much negativity from us at home (she does classic things like know exactly how to complete the entire unit in math with the teacher barely covering it, but forgetting to bring her math book home to complete her homework 3 days a week; her room is a disaster area and we can never get her to keep it remotely neat, but then she loses everything; she is so absorbed in what she is reading or playing or watching or imagining that she doesn't do half of what she's supposed to, and doesn't hear us trying to gain her attention). She has had issues with serious anxiety in the past, though that seems to be in check lately. She is seeming to have more trouble fitting in with her peers (classic, again) though her teacher's don't seem to see it. She is very hard on herself with perfectionist tendancies, but at the same time careless bordering on lazy about her assignments and tasks at home.

I love her dearly and just want her to be happy and confident and feel comfortable in her own skin. My husband and I have always said life is going to be hard on her, smart as she is, because she analyzes things so deeply, thinks so hard about everything, and can never just "roll with it".

How can we help her? What can help us help and parent her productively???

I don't have an answer for you, but wanted to send you some *hugs*! I'm sure others will have more insight than me, but hang in there!

I want to send you commiseration too--it all sounds VERY familiar, and yes, I too am thinking "If she is this hard at 8...." quite often. My DD is also incredibly relentless, has an astounding memory for things I said once 5 years ago when I was half-asleep, and can beat almost anyone at their own game. She used to explode a lot, but recently she's moving towards "Fine, whatever" with no show of emotion at all--and she will not fold.

I am working towards reaching her and trying to acknowledge her pain and anger rather than disciplining more.

I can relate! My DS8 gets out of control sometimes in his rudeness to his family, and it slowly creeps up so I don't notice how bad it's gotten. I find that the only thing that really gets him to respond is to make his bedtime earlier in 15 minute increments for infractions. This deprives him of whatever it is he wants to do, since he just has to go to bed. This also seems to be helpful in getting him extra sleep, which makes him more pleasant anyway.

I have heard great things about this book, and I keep meaning to check it out at the library: Transforming the Difficult Child or wait, was it this book? Living with Intensity

Get her in a sport that challenges herself against her own best, that has high standards, and gets her physically exhausted.

My two older kids were very much like this, and once they started climbing, things were much better for everyone. They were happier, and so was I.

All that intensity that used to be directed at whatever roadblock I'd put up in front of their unrelenting pursuit of the moment instead went into challenging themselves to do better on the next route on the wall. Both were national contenders for several years, and it was all self-driven.

The other was having to deal with teammates and a coach who dealt on a much more basic level. Want to argue? Do 20 more pushups. Want to challenge my idea? Run another lap.

Now I'm not saying it was happily ever after or that I got to sit around a drink mint juleps in the afternoon while they were perfect children. Far from it. But at least I didn't spend most days wondering how I was going to get through the constant demands.

Hope this helps.

I have a similar one, but he is generally very postiive and happy and does not have too much anxiety but he can be defiant and struggles with impulse control, focus, etc. I agree with the sports suggetion too. My DS is the best when he has had the exact right amount of physical and mental stimulation each day. Figuring that out is sometimes the hard part.

I would also consider getting a full neuropsych eval, IQ testing, other issues (EF disorder, anxiety) preferable with someone that has experience with gifted kids that may have other exceptionalities. It may give you a better picture of exactly what is going on with her. I would also recommend Transforming the Difficult Child - it does work if you stick with it. Finally, Smart But Scattered is a great book for helping with the organization stuff - bringing stuff home, cleaning room, etc. Others here have suggested Late, Lost and Unprepared too.

LOL, I just logged on and was thinking how exhausted I was managing my DS6 to get him to bed when "I just want to read a little more Mom!" turns into a 20 min argument (and darnit his reasoning is good!). Hang in there! I usually take a lot of comfort from reading other parents' posts, especially on overwhelming days!

Has anyone read a book called "The Highly Sensitive Child?" My DD7 really struggled with anger and some of the same kinds of issues mentioned here (although perhaps to a lesser degree). Anyway, this book helped me to find new strategies for dealing with her explosions. I realized that the way I responded made things worse.

Anyway, it really helped us. Maybe it might be helpful for you, too.

We feel your pain and concern! This describes DD8 almost exactly, although her intellectual prowess has devolved into a double-barrel blast of denial and stubbornness. Her poker face is so good I often wonder whether I said what I said, or heard what I heard. For at least a year we've been asking that "How will we handle her in five years?" question.

She is "smart but scattered" to such a degree that we are planning to pursue the neuropsych eval, and because she just never quite seems comfortable in her own skin for very long.

Things we've tried with varying success:

- Moved her from regular into gifted class (HUGE success in terms of reducing anxiety)
- Piano lessons (easy to progress yet infinite room to improve)
- More sleep (DD melts down often and easily without enough sleep...)
- DHA/fish oil pills (seems to stabilize her mood when given consistently)
- Sports (we found DD thrived under a "mean" gymanstics coach from Eastern Europe...the only coach who could convince her to excel..we need to get her back into sports)
- Giving her a break from her younger sibling

Thanks so much, everyone. I appreciate the advice and commiserating! It's glad to know this is similar to what others experience.

With regard to sports- I have made it a point to keep her in a team sport every season since kindergarten (she's in 3rd grade now). Several reasons for this...she would be perfectly happy reading a book in her room for hours at a time and I want her to get out and be physically fit; I hope she will find a sport she really likes and want to continue into the upper grades; I have felt, particularly in our community, that it is important for her socially. She has played on teams with the same group of girls from school pretty much every season. I feel like this keeps her engaged in something all the kids can relate to, instead of her unique pursuits, like Greek mythology. It gives them a common bond. She is also more motivated to join a team right now if she knows her friends are playing. However, as I see more of a gap developing with her and her agemates, I wonder how long this will be a factor.

The problem we have with most team sports is she can really take it or leave it, and just doesn't try that hard. She's had the same soccer coach for years who has said that, when she tries, she's as good as any girl out there. BUT she is too lost in her head most of the time to really focus and care. Same with basketball and lacrosse. I put her on the swim team last summer. She's a good swimmer and I thought that was a nice mix of team and individual sport. However, that is not to her liking...as she says, she likes to swim, but not have people tell her what stroke to swim when...or how many laps...and she doesn't like the pressure of everyone watching and cheering for her during her heats Right now she is in volleyball, which she likes a lot, for the first time that I remember, so that's great. She has mentioned karate/ martial arts several times. Maybe that would be worth checking out.

I will look for some of the books mentioned. Also, I am curious, Pru, about your connecting gifted programs to reduced anxiety...could you tell me more about that? In her private school, there is no gifted program. But as a teacher in the public school system, I'm not sure that her options there (twice weekly curriculum extention unit, math 2 yrs above grade level) would be worth what we would give up leaving her current school.

I'm interested in how many of you are mentioning sports. My DD enjoys being active, but is not physically talented. I would say she is probably in the bottom 25% for athletic ability, though not delayed. Do any of your kids meet this description or anything near it, or are they talented physically? We do spend a ton of time outdoors, but DD has never been involved in any organized athletics (we've asked, but she's never been interested, and we haven't pushed it). One reason I have hesitated is that I suspect it would be hard on her to be mediocre at something like this AND also not deeply interested (mediocre at it and interested is okay with her, but the combination is not so great, as it isn't for most people, I think!) Or...any suggestions for something physical and demanding yet also very noncompetitive? I have considered yoga. We have a kids' yoga video that she used to love till our ancient VCR ate it. I have yet to find another good one. She has become too old for many of the goofy "kids" yoga videos.

My daughter couldn't connect her foot with a ball to play soccer and wasn't very talented physically as a little girl. She rocked at rock climbing - enough to have several climbing gear companies sponsoring her by her senior year.

I'd highly recommend indoor gym climbing for kids who aren't as talented or physically adept. It's just you putting your feet on holds, hands on holds, and then standing up and doing it again. It's physically challenging and exhausting but not outside the reach of anyone. I'm terrified of heights and have even started climbing myself.

When I say sports, I guess I really mean physical activity. My DS is athleticly slightly above average but not physically talented. He does love organized sports - baseball, basketball, wrestling and he would play football too if I let him.

But even outside of sports, we try to incorporate some type of physical activity. He is not too old for the silly kids yoga videos. He loves to box on the wii. He and my husband play pick up basketball, we go for a bike or scooter ride, I have him run laps at the school, we go hiking or skiing on the weekend. He likes doing all sorts of physical activities and we encourage that to keep him well centered. I notice a behavioral difference when we have not been able to incorporate the activity.

K is not talented at sports; definitely average at best, and that's when she tries! She is a strong swimmer but not interested in that as a team sport. I have thought about yoga as a stress reducer...a local center has a tween class. But it's so pricey! She just went to a rock climbing b'day party but didn't have much of an opinion of climbing one way or the other.

2 book suggestions that may be helpful:
Hold on to Your Kids
Transforming the Difficult Child
But mostly Hold on to Your Kids

I will be following this post because I have a feeling it may have some useful info. for my future with my youngest...

oh, and ADHD inattentive, maybe? Have you considered that?

My DS started out with some mild motor delays, now caught up to the average range. He had school PT for a while.

DS loves his swimming lessons (which have evolved into 1:1 coaching sessions in the lap lane)-- turning into a real lifetime sport possibility for him.

He also adores his horseback riding lessons. He is not yet proficient-- started not long ago-- but it's intensely physical and non-competitive.

We do try to make it a point to give him several opportunities a week to really exercise...

DeeDee

Hmm--thanks for the tip, ABQmom. As a matter of fact, we do have a climbing gym quite close to our house and I have heard they are good with kids. I know of a good riding place, but it's distant, and the expense seems significant. I've also considered martial arts, but I know for sure that it would not appeal, at least initially--she is very opposed to anything that seems violent in any way. Yet I suspect the discipline/respect aspect would be great for her. We do try to get her in the pool as much as we can in summer--she loves to swim.

Ultramarina, band, chorus, chess club and dance have been good non-sport, non-competitive activities for our non-athlete. Also, I think that a finding an adult mentor helps. My DD has a very close relationship with her piano teacher -- I tease her teacher that I get music lessons and weekly therapy rolled into one.

Ultramarina, I don't recall how old your DD is, but my older two kids were not great athletes when they were young. They looked awkward when they ran and they were the slowest kids on the team.

They played soccer, basketball and softball in the rec leagues when they were young. DD16 and DD14 still play softball, and DD14 has added volleyball. They now have average speed. Both play for very competitive travel softball teams, DD16 starts on the HS varsity team and has had some interest from some Division III coaches. DD14 starts on her 8th grade softball and volleyball teams. They really enjoy the team sports.

My point is - don't give up on sports. It took quite a bit of practice and some speed & agility classes to get where they are now, but it is good for them to have to work at something to reach a goal. Oh, and neither one can ride a bike. We are trying to correct that parenting mistake with DD7.

My DD9 is also not very coordinated and dislikes sports. We have a family rule that she has to participate in something physical. Otherwise, she would sit on the couch and read all day and night. She tried soccer, gymnastics and dance-- stuck with each one for a while but never quite got the hang of any of them. But now she is into Zumba (of all things!). It is not competitive, but it keeps her moving. We do it together (the place near us won't allow kids without an adult) so it's mother-daughter bonding and she says it makes her feel stronger. This might be something you could try. I also second the poster who mentioned horseback riding. We have a friend whose 2e daughter is a great experience with it. She helps to care for the horses, learns to calm herself and focus.

Something else to consider . . . has your DD ever been taught any relaxation techniques? When things get too intense, this can help them to relax and let go of some of the intensity. My kids love tapping therapy. I thought it was nuts at first, but it truly does help them to calm down and focus, especially when they are upset. (No idea if there is any scientific reason this works. I don't even care if it's all in their heads, as long as it helps them.)

I did. I was considered a hopeless clutz at home as a little boy, but my mom signed me up for football when I was 9. One of the benefits was I learned to stop thinking so much about every movement, just react and trust my body. When I did that, I found it doing things I never thought it could.

I wouldn't consider my soccer-playing DD7 to be gifted physically, because it's not like she has unusual speed, agility, or strength. But what she does have is a control ability well beyond her years... I've seen 5yos who were as likely to throw a ball behind themselves as they were to throw it in your direction, but she could reasonably throw a ball at me at one. At 18mos we'd kick a ball back and forth, and she had an arrow-straight kicking motion that I could never have coached her. Her ball came to me every time, but mine didn't always come straight to her, and she'd be annoyed.

These days she's playing soccer, while she has teammates who are more talented than she is, she demonstrates an ability to think strategically beyond anyone else on the field. She's the only one I've seen who can consistently spot an open player upfield and make a pass to a spot where her teammate can get to it and a defender can't.

All of this I interpret as her maximizing her physical gifts because of her mental ones.

I think the only way to have any of our children feel good in their skin is for them to understand themselves, their strengths and weaknesses, and how sometimes their weaknesses are strengths in disguise. If I were you, I'd get a full educational eval with a really good tester. It's not enough to know she's gifted, it's not going to mean a whole lot to her. But giving her details, priceless.

just my 2 cents.

My DD is 8. I should say--she is not inactive--we are a very outdoorsy family, and are outside in some way (hiking, swimming, boating, fishing) almost every weekend. But we have not done any organized sports of any kind. You know, the one sport she does do at home with her dad is baseball, and she's actually quite a good hitter, according to him. But it's such a "all eyes on you" kind of sport that it worries me a bit for her. And it seems to be one of those sports that brings out a really negative side in other parents. She will freak out if that happens.

I appreciate the thoughts and ideas.

I feel your pain. My daughter is now almost 15. Some days I can barely stand being around her. She can be so rude to me. I set down certain rules and will take away her phone. This seems to be the only thing that works. She plays apps on her phone all the time and looks things up.

She tried sports when she was young and was so-so, but is not interested at this age. She is not that coordinated. She is in band, but loves singing. She is in a type of Glee Club that she loves.

Her room is a disaster and I have (almost) given up on it. I work hard to pick my battles with her. She is an excellent student and during 8th grade suddenly began organizing herself - academically. So there is some hope there. She wants to be top of her class and will do some work to stay there. (She is first in her class now.)

Good luck and set a few rules that she can't break (such as name calling). And consider giving her an i-phone so you can take it away when needed. LOL

This was my dd with tap and tennis. She is not gifted physically, but she used her mental skills and effort to keep up with the others, even when she was with girls several years older. It was great for working on perfectionism and perseverance too. Thankfully she chose to drop dance. I think it will be more of an asset in tennis. It is so extremely competitive here that I think it is unlikely she will even make the varsity high school team--BUT I think she can be a great player and the mental lessons learned can be applied to other areas of life too.

This is my DD, too. She's not particularly talented physically, although she is playing school sports with kids up to 2+ years older than her and holding her own, but she is particularly good at using her mind to her advantage. She is very consistent and measured when she plays and is adept and learning offenses and defenses and strategizing and knowing where she needs to be when. My DD plays primarily because she loves the social aspect, but it also is such a nice contrast to her school experience for her to be expending both physical and mental energy.

I'm sorry things have been so frustrating lately. It seems like you're really doing your best, and your DD is lucky that she has such attentive parents who want the best for her (even if she doesn't fully appreciate it yet!).

Two things I'm thinking. About the organization (forgetting school stuff, organizing her room, etc.), my thoughts are that they probably just aren't as important to her as they are to you. Your DD maybe just doesn't have the social experience to care about the need to jump through the hoops of turning in work that required no effort or cleaning her room. And if she's had to pay no attention in order to do the school work that is much too easy, then it's hard to snap her brain to attention in order to turn it in. And, just my personal opinion, unless the unclean room is unsanitary, it may just be one of those things that you have to ignore. It's really a self-limiting behavior with natural consequences. When she's had enough experiences not finding something that is really important to her, then she'll make changes in some way (not necessarily keeping her room clean) that will make her more organized.

The other thing I'm thinking is about engaging her negativity. And I'm saying this more from an intellectual perspective than from experience because, honestly, this is something I struggle with with my kids on a regular basis. But maybe try to rein in your interactions with her when she's argumentative or acting out. Try to ignore the tone of her voice, tell her she can be angry but that she can't be loud and disruptive about it or she'll have to go some place away from others in the house, let her have alone time in her room to freak out about things until you can have a pleasant conversation. Maybe your extreme calmness in the more challenging situations will help her. If she's hard on herself, then she probably knows when she's messed up and, tempting though it may be to try to make sure she sees the error of her ways, she may just need you to be there, hug her, and say nothing. I was that way as a kid, being hard on myself -- still am -- and the best thing someone can do to support me is let me figure things out on my own and let me know that they are there if I decide I need them.