Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion What does the SAT really measure?

This is the subject of ongoing debate at the leadership level of my kids' private school. The school rarely produces a NMSF despite being a pricey "college prep" day school.

The school takes the position that the SAT does not really matter or measure anything substantive. PBS had an interview with the CEO of the Princeton Review that totally rips the value of the SAT as well. The Princeton Review guy claims that the SAT only measures test taking ability and that it is a poor predictor of college success.

OTOH, past discussions of SATs on this board seem to presume that the SAT somewhat accurately measures a child's education, information base and problem solving. Colleges certainly consider it, hopefully for more reason than because they are in the habit of doing so. (I was a NMSF so my bias is that the test is HIGHLY accurate.)

I would love to hear the thoughts of the board on this. My own feeling is that our school is doing CYA and the lack of NMSF indicates a deficit somewhere.

My understanding is that the SAT was a very good predictor of collegiate success up to approximately 1994. Prior to 1994, not only did the test score track closely with college success, it also tracked closely to IQ, which was why Mensa accepted SAT scores for membership. But then it had an overhaul that introduced subjectivity into the verbal scoring (open blank questions instead of multiple choice) and students were allowed a calculator. Afterwards, even more subjectivity has been added, with the introduction of an essay portion, and the analogy section (which was the part of the test most influenced by intelligence, not achievement) has been eliminated.

So I'd say that the effectiveness of today's SAT as a predictor of college success is an open question that needs to be researched.

I honestly don't know much of anything about today's SAT tests (and found what Dude wrote very interesting!)... but fwiw, (and I'm OLD so my memory is both questionable as well as I'm sure my high school data points are waaaay waaaay different than today)... but fwiw if memory serves me - back when I was in high school, re the National Merit Scholarships - when you took the SAT (or PSAT?) you qualified as a semi-finalist - and then in order to become a finalist a company that sponsored a scholarship had to "find" you - you had to be interested in their line of work and it also helped to have a relative who worked for the company or have some other means of standing out other than just the test scores. There was more to NMSFs than simply scoring above a certain point on the test - actual scholarship $ had to exist somewhere for each scholarship, and that usually came with some restrictions in addition to test scores. I remember that at our high school, the kids who got NMFS weren't the kids who were necessarily at the very top of the class in terms of achievement... and there were kids (including me) who scored very very highly on the tests but were only "semi-finalists".

What types of colleges do graduating seniors typically go to from your college prep school? What is the average (and range) of SAT scores? What is the experience of going to school their like? Is it a small school - and if so, is there a possibility that the lack of NMSF kids is simply due to numbers?

polarbear

The SAT is still "A Good Intelligence Test" http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...tter/the-sat-is-a-good-intelligence-test , but the College Board can't say that for political reasons. It is supposed to predict success in college, and it does. You can look at college graduation rates vs. SAT Math+Verbal scores in Table 6 of the "Completing College" report at http://heri.ucla.edu/DARCU/CompletingCollege2011.pdf .

And THAT is why I brought my question here. Thank you all. To you questions, polarbear, the school graduates 70-75 kids per year and has had three NMSF since 2005 (Wow that sounds low!) The seniors go generally to public universities in state and through the south with a couple going to smaller liberal arts schools. (I should note that admission to our flagship State U. is crazy competitive.)No Ivies or particularly exclusive schools appear regularly.

Your next question is probably, so why are your children AT this school. That has a long, involved answer involving the "least worst" option analysis and I won't bore you with it. However, they are at the elementary school and I am trying to get the leadership to face the merit scholar (and related college admission, as polarbear rightly points out) issue and not simply define it as a non-issue.

OK, let's talk about intelligence. First there is the concept of g, as being a general sort of cognitive ability, which can never be accurately tested and may not exist. IQ tests all have specific tasks and abilities that they test, and may get slightly different results from each other.

Then there is Gardner's multiple intelligences and his objection to the privileging of two that happen to easy to measure: verbal and logical/mathematical. Gardner and I are of the opinion that the most important of the intelligences is actually interpersonal intelligence. My work experience and the time I spent on a graduate admissions committee are parts of the reasons I believe this.

Also, there is the question of how behavior affects future scores on the SAT. And for that, I reference Walter Mischel's marshmallow test. In his famous 1960s experiment, Mischel asked kids three- or four-years-old to wait 15 minutes with a marshmallow in order to get a second marshmallow when the researcher returned.

Mischel sometimes found this delayed gratification in very young children, but he believed (or believes) that it is a learned behavior. At last report, he was investigating those people that could not wait at four, but had somehow dodged the substance abuse problems and other issues that dogged many of the future adult selves of children that could not wait for the second marshmallow.

Mischel followed up on the marshmallow kids later and found out most of the kids who could wait scored an average of 200 points higher on the SAT. So it turns out that the SAT may also be a measure of the kind of behavior that will allow students to do well in college.

SAT scores and other measures of intelligence are not affected much by the variation of quality in schools within the U.S. or by other variables that parents can control, so I don't think your children will be harmed by attending a high school with few National Merit Scholars.

I agree.

As a former PG kid from a poor family who went to a rural public high school, I have some experience of this. I was busy educating myself in high school, reading Voltaire in biology class, and so forth. For me, the real problem with that setup was the lack of a intellectual peer group. I arrived at college emotionally and socially immature and with abysmal work habits.

My psychologist buddy tells me that most people have comparable SAT and GRE scores, but my GRE verbal and math were each exactly 100 points higher than my 98th percentile SATs, after a liberal arts education (GPA of about 2.5) and a few years of work experience.

It does make me wonder why we have so few though. We don't have any highly intelligent kids in upper school? They ALL go to college and almost all take the SAT. And supposing my kids have tested well (which they have), they will have few to no academic peers in school? That is troubling.

My feeling is- the SAT is required for almost every competitive college. If it measures intelligence or not, you need to do really well on it if you want to get into a competitive college. I would worry if my pricey high school didn't procedure NMSF. Our public school has 10-15 a year.
You can really prepare and improve your scores alot with today's SAT. I know personally 3 kids in our area who got perfect 2400 SAT scores. I never knew anyone as a kid/teen, and I think the SAT scores became inflated over time. I'm assuming that is why MENSA doesn't accept SAT scores anymore for membership.

fwtxmom: I think I would be a little concerned, too. 3 since 2005? (That's really low, compared to my local public school, and it pales in comparison to number of NMSF generated at the pricey schools around here)

Do you have information on how the kids do on things like AP tests or SAT subject tests? What does the school give you to use as an "objective" yardstick?

Does the school give scholarships to attract high achieving students? I think that is one good way to attract that type of student, provided that the school is a "best option" in your area.

The SAT was recentered in 1995. Verbal scores of 730+ and math scores of 780+ became 800s http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/equivalence-tables/sat-score .

Which implies that it's a sort-of IQ test with a very low ceiling. I say "sort of" IQ test because it measures knowledge that no one is born with (e.g. vocabulary, geometry) as much as stuff that's more innate (e.g. the ability to see relationships).

I think of tests like the SAT and GRE as being very good discriminators of averageness.

The school takes the position that the SAT does not really matter or measure anything substantive.

Personally, I think that's just silly. Of course it is at least ONE indicator, and it's not comppletely random, right? However, even at our large school, there are only a handful of kids a year, so I wouldn't necessarily assume a deficit. I also think that you need to look at the entire picture: AP scores (not just number taking them, but % scoring 4s or 5s), average ACT/SAT scores, college acceptances, etc... I would almost be more worried about their statement that it's pointless - THAT sounds like CYA. In the end, though, it only really matters how your kids do. If there are enough peers for them to have some like-minded, like-qualified students in their honors/AP classes, it doesn't matter how the "average" student does. I always like to ask, "how many kids are performing at/close to my child's level?" I don't need names, or test scores, but I want to have some sense that my kids won't be outliers. Even if that isn't ideal, is it a small, caring community with teachers willing to mentor/challenge your kids if they ARE alone intellectually? That can make up for a lot.

I love this board! I can count on it for a really thorough and diverse discussion. Momtofour, you have hit the intangible that really pulled me to the school. It's small, it's warm and they seem willing to be flexible with their program for my 2e mathy DS and my very verbal DYS DD. The school is engaging in some introspection on academic issues, which is a good sign, and I want to really explore this myself in advance so that I can contribute intelligently.

Part of that is small class size effect, though. Our public high school (which is a generally good one) has about 6 NMSFs in a given year - but it has about 1,000 students in a graduating class. Six classes at 75 per is 450 kids and 3 NMSFs. Sounds right to me.

The public school with the highest percentage of NMSF in the state has 12 or so out of a graduating class of 750 or so.

I kind of feel like the SATs aren't particularly emphasized in TX for the brightest kids, because they will be auto-accepted to UT & aTm regardless of their SAT score, due to the whole top 10% GPA thing.

In the end, it actually doesn't matter what the SAT and PSAT measure. In the real world most people realize it's a game to some extent, a game that's worth mastering. There is a TON of money riding on those tests. It's a bit nuts for your school to say the tests don't matter when they CLEARLY matter for scholarships and admittance.

I understand a school not wanting to be in the "business" of teaching to any standardized test, but to tell you the test doesn't matter is ludicrous.

I think most of the prep type schools around here offer SAT prep classes before or after school.

btw: I disagree about the small class size argument. Once you get to the "pricey college prep" schools, self-selection is already well underway. Those kids are typically ready and able (with varying amounts of prepping) to do well on the test. Around here typically 5-15% of the students at the priciest prep schools are NMSF.

Worth mastering right up until the entire higher education system implodes due to it's own financial stupidity.

It's probably only got another 10 to 20 years at this rate.

There are four good publics in the DFW area. One has 4000+ seniors and the others around 450-750. These consistently have 3%+ NMSFs as a percentage of the total grads. Thus the large district has around 150 NMSFs and the smaller around 30 or so. The so-called magnets in Dallas ISD and other districts are lucky to have even 1.

The privates here see from 10-30% a year of their class as NMSF.

If a school bills itself as for GT kids yet has less than 1% of its class as NMSF with average SATS less than 2000 then its a good bet that its not really what it says it is.

You can also look at the AMC8/10/12 test participation and high scoring students from the schools. A handful of kids with scores > 20 each year is a great sign. No participation is a red flag.

As others have said, I'd be less concerned about the numbers and more concerned about the "This test is meaningless" party line.

I never realized my high school was as unusual as it seems to be; I think we had about 12 NMSF in a graduating class of 400.

I had forgotten I *was* a NMSF until this thread appeared.

That should tell you how much I think of the entire NMSF experience. I have *no* idea how many NMSFs our school had because I viewed it as profoundly irrelevant to my life. It was just another random award that was being thrown at me at the time and I threw it in my award box along with the bajillion other awards I had received.

Perhaps you didn't have to worry about paying for college, but for several young people I know the reality of a "free ride" from NMSF-friendly schools is far from being "irrelevant".

I don't think I knew that you could get free rides from NMSFs.

I got a free ride, but it wasn't directly NMSF related.

I've just never thought about it since then.

I may be dating myself here, but I'm not sure that NMSF actually got you free rides to college way back in the day when I was in high school. I think the program has gotten a lot bigger; I don't know of any schools around here who don't administer the test.

I'm not sure how many free rides Merit Scholars get or got. But I think *sometimes* they are offered free rides by colleges--generally, somewhat less selective ones. I seem to recall that this was offered to me by a safety school of mine.

Because my father worked for a company that sponsored NMS, my tuition was reduced by about 25% for all 4 years. The money came from the company, not my college. It was a huge deal for me and my family.

By contrast, my husband was also a semi-finalist but didn't get anything. (His parents were in public service.) So to him, it was more of the "Throw it in the box" variety.

I didn't really have safety schools.

My choices were free schools in which I had no interest in attending or schools in which I was interested in attending but had no interest in paying for.

The real key is to have your parents *work* for a small private college, where you can get your tuition reduced by 75% for all 4 years. One of my friends did this and attended a small private liberal arts school that he quite enjoyed. No NMSF or anysuch required.

I forgot about that secret, too.

My friend's daughter got free tuition to Fordham University on her Merit Scholarship. However, Fordham is ranked #100, below the Ivies she got into. They still must pay room and board, which is probably $10,000 or more a year, transportation, books, etc. So... It's not a totally free ride.

The free ride on NMSF was why I went to a Tier 1 state school vs an Ivy or Caltech. And my smaller scholarships did not get deducted from that free ride. What a deal. A lot of schools do this today. There are some public schools that have more total NMSFs than any private school.

Here is a list.

http://excelcollegeprep.com/pdf/scholarships.pdf

99% of SAT scores on each of the Critical Reading, Math, or Writing sections are below 780 http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/SAT-Percentile_Ranks_2011.pdf , which means that someone scoring 780 or higher is in the top 1%, which cannot fairly be described as average or slightly above average.

Cool, thanks. If I recall correctly, my NMSF was based on my PSAT scores, not my SAT scores. Is that the way is still goes? I, too, was not told that there was any scholarship possibility based on getting this. It was just a notation next to my name @ graduation. As I recall, my high school had a lot of NMSFs as well.

I only applied to UC schools (University of CA) and was so set on UC Berkeley that I insisted to my mom that I wasn't going to college if I didn't get in there which about gave her a coronary. Fortunately I did get in, but I'm guessing that the reason the scholarship angle wasn't played up @ my high school is b/c none of the UC or Cal State schools are on the list of schools that offer scholarships to NMSFs and most of us were going to in-state public universities.

eta: in looking closer, I do see that some of the Cal State schools are on the list, but I didn't apply to places like Cal State Longbeach. Oh well, something to think about for dd should she do well.

Wow, that I did not know either. No one contacted me following my NMSF score and I just assumed that the kids who were NMF had scored higher than those of us with NMSF next to our names.

I got a full tuition scholarship from our flagship State U as a NMSF but that was 20+ years ago. No idea if they still do this. Also, tuition was an incredible $16/semester hour back then when I started. When I left it was all the way up to $28 which caused quite an outcry. They were practically giving away higher education back then. What happened I wonder?

All of the NMSF ratio discussions caused me to take a look at NMSF at the local competitor private schools. I guess our small private school is in line with the large public schools for NMSF per capita based on this thread's discussion but our direct competition private schools are drubbing us. (We have had 3 2005-11 with 70-75 graduets per year.) One has had 30 NMSF from 2006-10 with graduating classes of 85-90 and the other has had 22 in the past 3 years with 92-97 graduates per year. If the SAT is an IQ test does that mean all the smart kids in town go to these schools? Their numbers are insanely high!

If I *recenter* what I got back in the day, my verbal score, which was 40 points lower than my math score rises to 20 points above my math score (which remained unchanged).

The math score really wasn't changed.

Hello,

Our local public high school has class size of about 250, and this year had 15 NMSF, which is typical for the school (strong district). This is 6% of the population, which is above average. Looks like nationally (see in the quotes below), 1% of PSAT-takers become semi-finalists (3% are recognized, including the letters of commendation). So for a class size of 75, I guess it would be "average" to have 2 semi-finalists every 3 years, but a couple of letters-of-commendation-winners each year.

"Of the 1.5 million entrants, about 50,000 qualify for recognition. More than two-thirds of those qualified receive Letters of Commendation; about a third of the 50,000 become Semifinalists, about 94% of whom go on to become Finalists. Over half of the Finalists are selected to receive scholarships underwritten by corporations and business organizations, colleges and universities, and by NMSC with its own funds".

I agree that with the advent of massive test-prep, tutors, classes, taking the test multiple times, etc, the true meaning of the results are more questionable than ever, but agree with all the posters who say that it is crazy for the school to discount the SATS.....whether or not they really are a true indicator of anything important, they certainly matter!!

Additionally, while I don't want to think that a lot of school time is spent "teaching to the test", there are lots of important parts of the SAT. On the verbal portion, for example, vocabulary is a critical part. Who doesn't think that developing a rich vocabulary is an important part of education?

So I think you (OP) are right to question the administration when they downplay the SAT. It's not the end-all-be-all, but it does matter. (But I also agree that I'm sure YOUR children will do great if it's the right environment for them!!!).