Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Overexcitability around others... manageable?

Hi,

My ds 8 has been tested with the WISC-IV twice and has fallen into the PG range both times. Last year he was diagnosed with AS, though "just barely." We weren't sure we agreed with this dx, but as this year has unfolded, I think we must accept that we're not just dealing with PG issues. He is home educated, and we have no support for the PG or AS issues, so that's why I'm here. I need some insight from those who are experienced with these issues.

Some history...

Ever since our ds was a toddler, I would notice a change in his personality and beaviors when we were around other children. There was never an issue with adults that I can recall. Normally outgoing at home, he would kind of sit back and observe or do his own thing when in our toddler-mommy music class. This was puzzling to me. Otherwise he was calm and we never had any kind of behavioral issues.

As our ds hit the 4-5 age range, we began to notice that the other children seemed to sense something different about him. He would walk up and talk to them and they would just stare at him, even though he was being kind and polite. Around this time we saw his first negative reaction when engaging with other children. He was watching some girls play at the park and he decided to stomp on a little dirt house that they had made. Maybe this would be normal for some boys, but not our ds. I was shocked, but I did go to him and tell him that this wasn't acceptable behavior. He couldn't really tell me what he had decided to do this.

Right after he turned six, we started a homeschool co-op. He did fine, except that the other boys seemed to be intimidated by a six-year-old who "knew stuff." They mostly excluded him in the educational classes. I first saw that we had something really unusual going on when we started the PE class. No matter what they were doing, my son would seem to go into his own world. He would listen (or try to) and participate, but he would do crazy things, and in general he seemed rather lost much of the time.

For instance, they were asked to run a course of orange cones. When he got to his first cone, he kicked it like a punter and sent it sailing through the air. The kids thought this was great, but I was stunned! I had never seen him act so wired! He did this in every class. He also never fully 'got' the instructions for games and things and wouldn't bother to ask. He just faked his way through as much as he could. My husband came to a PE class and couldn't believe his eyes. Our son was just so "lost" in there. It was like he was on speed.

DS did this same kind of "wired" thing when we started a new church. I finally realized that this was a stress reaction. He would talk in a robotic voice, his body would be stiff, and he just did things that were out of place. I was continually having to corral and correct him while there; yet, at home he is as calm as can be and never exhibits these signs.

Now that he's 8, he's really standing out. It's hard to ignore it or write it off as a PG issue, so I guess we're dealing with an AS issue. I just don't know what it is that we're looking at here, nor do I know how do deal with it. I don't want to continually correct him in a way that makes him feel like he's always doing something wrong, yet he bulldozes the smaller children around him when he gets in this spaced-out mode. Here's an example from yesterday. He was playing with other children, he ran out of a closet, ran over a three-year-old in the floor in front of him. He said that he didn't even see her (right in front of him!).

He is a very sweet and loving child normally. He doesn't hit, bite, or say mean things, so I know this isn't intentional, yet when another child is crying or injured, he seems to always be the source! For years, even before we knew about the PG or AS issues, I learned to go over "acceptable" behavior before we went anywhere. This rarely helped because he seemed to short circuit when around others.

One more thing to mention is that in the past two months "lost time," extreme dawdling, and a major lack of focus in general has become a huge issue.

I'm sorry that this is so verbose and rambling. I just want to give as clear of a picture as possible. Can someone please give me some insight into what might be going on, and what we might do to help my son?

Thanks so much!

Our DS9 (with AS) is also typically better with adults than with peers. He has a hard time choosing the right topics to engage with peers about, and he finds peers less predictable than adults. He also sometimes sees them as competitors, which makes him feel anxious; and he misreads social cues so that even if someone is not making fun of him, he may think they are.

Asking a kid with AS why they did something is unlikely to yield much... they usually don't have a lot of insight into their own behavior.


Gym is hard... it can be overstimulating AND competitive, both of which have been issues for my DS.

The exclusion is awful. Did you find a way to work on it?

With our DS at this age we had the teacher introduce the idea of AS to the class, and DS had an opportunity to tell his peers about his challenges. The teachers were very clear about the need to be kind and accepting, and we found that other kids avoid DS much less now that they know what his deal is. It has been a real success for us.


Often people with AS have trouble with implicit instructions, or even listening to instructions fully. My DS has it in his IEP that instructions have to be explicit, and usually he should be presented with a checklist or an example of successful work, so he knows what he has to do.


Home sounds like a comfort zone; good that he has one.

I encourage you to see if you can find ways to stretch him to be flexible. This can be as simple as running out of a favorite food (brand of bread, style of peanut butter) and having to substitute something else on the fly; or driving home a new way; or changing the schedule unexpectedly. This sort of thing encourages him to be OK with alternatives, which in the long term reduces anxiety.


Correcting constantly is no fun, but that's the route we've taken. Only if he can be made to understand what's acceptable, and how to do it, can he learn to take responsibility for his actions and do the right thing. We say: "In our family, we figure out the right thing to do, and we do it, even if it's hard."

To not correct him is to accept that he's never going to learn to be considerate... we were unwilling to take that route, so we correct unwanted behavior, and we try to be consistent.


Problems with attention are often part and parcel of AS. People with AS often find that what's in their own heads is more interesting than what's going on with other people out in the world, so they have difficulty attending to basic life stuff or any subject that they find intrinsically uninteresting.

We have been very successful with behavior therapy (ABA), and I recommend it highly. The aim is to teach correct behaviors, and gradually reinforce them in a variety of settings until they become natural. In the past we have had therapists run play dates for DS to keep him on track and get him used to other kids, or take him to the park and practice joining play with other kids.

They also work directly on anxiety and social thinking. (The Michelle Garcia Winner materials are useful for this, too, and can be used by parents or professionals.)

We have found that our DS needed medication both for anxiety (SSRI) and for attention. This was not our total solution, but it has allowed DS to learn what we are teaching him. He's doing really well these days, and we are proud of him.

I recommend the discussion forum at OASIS, too: http://www.aspergersyndrome.org/Forums.aspx

HTH,
DeeDee

My ds is more likely to sit back and take the blame or let himself be misunderstood. He doesn't seem to care, but if you ask him about it later, he'll say that he noticed it and that he didn't particularly think it was right. Yet, he doesn't make a big deal of it and doesn't say a thing about it unless prompted. I worry about this. I wish I truly knew if he was okay, or if this is something to be concerned about.


That particular class was his first large group experience. This past year we joined a different co-op and he had very little trouble with being accepted. His motor and social skills have improved, so maybe that's why. The only complaints he had when I talked to him after class were that the other children seemed to want to play younger kid games. He stated too that the other kids never seemed to be interested in what he was interested in ---science, nature, books, etc. He doesn't have any obsessive interests to blow them away with, so perhaps that's more of a PG issue.

He's an only, and he's homeschooled, so he loves to interact with other children when given the chance. I think he compromises now by coming down to their level, doing what they want, just to be around them. I think he realized last semester at co-op that this isn't the most fulfilling, yet what's the alternative?


This is one of the reasons why we initially doubted the AS dx --we've not seen him as inflexible, at least when we look at lists of behaviors for AS like the one above. He's had a total of two tantrums in his eight years, and that's including the toddler years. He's very go-with-the-flow and he doesn't protest to anything. He will offer his opinion, but then he lets it go without a fuss. Could it be that he's just exhibiting differently than many AS kids? (Like I would know what's normal!)


I've always had the same attitude, even before we knew anything about the PG and AS issues; if anything, I'm one of those who corrects too often. I don't let too much slide. However, as this 'thing' is developing with him, it seems as if he can't control it, and he can't seem to explain it. He just says, "I seem to have a big problem with focusing. I don't know why I can't _____." It doesn't seem to matter how many times we talk about it or walk through it, he just isn't "aware" in the moment if he's zipping around in play.

Okay, I guess I'm back to "just take him to a doctor." Any suggestions for the 'type' of doctor?

Thanks again.

There is a wide range of what counts as AS, and nearly nobody has all the possible symptoms. In Sohn and Grayson's book Parenting Your Asperger Child they go through a list of types... possibly yours is a dreamier type, rather than a more explosive type.

The difficulty connecting with peers is a key component no matter what type.


It can sometimes be like their radar is tuned to things but not people. Though my DS is very social... just not good at reading cues.


Who diagnosed the AS? Is he receiving any services now?

I'd say, take him to a neuropsychologist. (Ours works in tandem with a developmental pediatrician, which is great.) They can do a wide variety of tests to figure out what's going on. My feeling is, it's important to have good diagnostic information; at that point you can then use that information to formulate a plan to improve things and work on the missing skills.

DeeDee

Your DS sounds a lot like our DS 5. Same sort of weird behavior in same age groupings. His older sis is in a class for HG kids and accelerated. He has not had any testing yet. We have noticed the same sort of behavior as you describe with your son. I have taken him to many different preschools and church groups and we get the same kind of reactions, kicking random objects, running around, kids staring at him or ignoring him. Lots of physical OEs. My mother and law said my husband was the same. They gave him a toy to hold for awhile in the younger grades. My DS has a toy to but he is a very young 5. I don't know if this would work as well at 8.

So an odd thing happened. My brother in law started dating a girl who has two children and her children are also like this. The Boy has the same sort of reactions at school. He was diagnosed with ADD the first year in school then ODD and then they said he has AS this year. He is a good six years ahead in math and his reading and comprehension are off the charts. Her DS is a couple years older that mine in second grade now.

Amazingly our kids can play together just fine, no awkwardness, no fighting, no issues. Also our DS gets along fine with peers from DD7 class who are all HG or higher, especially older boys who are interested in international current events or discussing building hypothetical things. The girl friends kids also get along great with similar peers. So I finally quit trying to put DS 5 in regular social settings or make him fit and found a great woman who has worked with gifted children. She has a very small group of kids a couple times a week for preschool-ish classes and works on following directions and listening skills along with pretty open ended play. We also have him in a martial arts class that is multi-aged with two very good understanding teachers. He has worked toward being better in there, but if a new teacher comes in who doesn't seem to get him its back to the kicking stuff and running around. I am doing this partially because he is going to public school.

He is starting K in the fall in a very short half day program, So wish us luck. Or wish them luck!

Anyway, I told my brother in laws girlfriend that I think her kids are gifted. After meeting more gifted kids she agrees and is planning to move them to another setting next year. In her case I don't think her son has AS or anything else he is just really smart and trying to fit in a hostile environment.

Good luck with your son. If you can find other kids at his level I think that would help a lot. Also I think really intense kids with more noticeable OEs do benefit from sensory or OT techniques like what would be done in OT therapy. I Think this is only helpful when it is done in a non invasive, natural way that is not labeling the child. For example: when he is starting to get anxious we squeeze his hands and put pressure on his shoulders and be a calming presence for him. Sometimes we verbally remind him before we arrive to be calm. And explain exactly what that looks like. Having a toy to squeeze or play with and a book to read if they need to take a step away from the group. Having a toy to share that most boys like can also be a good bridge. It is really hard and I don't think it will ever feel normal unless you find other parents and kids that have HG and PG kids, this helps. Our son seemed to get worse the harder we tried to make him fit with same age peers.

Remember no one knows your child better that you. You are probably the only expert on your child. No body knows! If you don't think he has AS your probably right. Who knows whats normal for a PG child probably not many other people besides you, because you live with one.

Two things I tell my kids when they are feeling out of place; Its not you it them and You are normal for you. If he gets stares and non responses after he tries to tell some boy about his theory on invisibility or whatever. Its non you honey your fine that made perfect sense. They said I'm not normal or this or that is not normal. Its normal for you so your fine. My DD who is older 7 will actually say its not me it them and then go talk to someone else(not out loud). This works better if they have a base of real peers so they have someone else to talk to. DD will also tell people if they say that's so unusual or your so unusual, she says its normal for kids like me. If there are no kids at his level find him adult peers there's nothing wrong with adults or much older kids if that's who he feels comfortable with.

Why do they have to be with kids there own age? We don't only talk to people our own age. PS if any of my kids were in a gym with orange cones, unless they had a book or my phone, the cones would probably be flying if I didn't give them the look in time . Most of the boys in DDs HG class would probably kick them too depending on who was watching them. I'm not sure why, but Id kind of have an urge to kick them as well, especially if there was no one to talk to and nothing to do. Maybe this is the divergent nature of very creative kids. A lot of the issues that we have had would be greatly reduced by homeschooling. Unfortunately I can not do that right now. I would love to hear more about your situation. Let us know what happens. He sounds like a wonderful boy.

My (limited) understanding of appropriate social development is that it's optimal when done with like peers, not just age but emotional/intellect. If your son is PG he wouldn't have much chance to interact with intellectual peers of his age, just by sheer statistics. If the PE is such a big issue, do you know much about his auditory profile? My DD, also 8, has something going on with auditory issues. (She’s EG-ish but now we’re not so sure since with our new knowledge of older test scores, it looks like low short-term memory calculated into her full-scale would have suppressed her IQ). Always has, ever since she was a baby. It’s very noticeable and predictable. When we brought her to a "specialist" in K, he just said her hearing was extremely sensitive, so when she's in loud or echoing places, or with alot of screeching kids, even when it’s outside, it's almost like she can't hear anything, and anyway it seems to really agitate her. But she knows enough now not to cover her ears or act out “like a baby”. So she seems to act really fidgety, talks really loudly, or just spaces out. But the choices and evidence of what to do about it, besides obviously avoiding situations or wearing ear plugs, is controversial not to mention sounds pretty expensive. We were told to have her tested again the future if this still interfered, which it does. Though she’s gained alot of tolerance just with maturity. But we're hoping it's included with the neuropsych testing this spring.

With my DD, she gets nervous when it’s a bunch of typical-mall-sort-of girls (not, for instance, girls she’ll meet in a “worm exploration’ class at the nature center) especially if all the girls are pretty glitzy or Justin-Bieber crazed, that seems to make DD nervous...but who wouldn’t be nervous LOL.

I’ve tried to read as much as I can about AS/Aspersers and I’m always confused, as I am when I read checklists for nonverbal learning disability, and even ADHD-inattentive. The higher the intelligence, the more unique the person, and not enough of them to study or have other people experience! There is the 2E issue, and I believe there is something there with my DD, but for her I think it’s more a dyslexia type of thing, plus the auditory and sensory (she also has visual issues).

If only these kids were more gathered together and not so spread out, they could OPTIMIZE SOCIALLY with each other...well at least if they stay the course and find their place in the world, they’ll likely find each other at least when they’re a bit older. But their childhoods certainly are different than typical because they are so different. We love them though : -)

He hasn't seen a neuropsych, though I hope to get him in to see one in the next few months. We experienced a trauma in the family just a month after he was diagnosed last year. We've been focusing on surviving, so all other new things have been on hold. The person who gave him the dx was someone who gets mentioned on this board and who has experience with PG children. That's why we opted to go there.

When we came to the end of our time with this psych, he opted to put ds in the AS category, but said that he could fall on either side of that line. To us that wasn't very definitive, especially since so many of ds' issues seemed as if they could easily be attributed to PG/OE issues. Plus, ds was excitable while in the visit and not really his normal, calm self while there. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but we would have liked him to see him when he was calm, as well as when he was stressed, before making a dx, esp. when he wasn't strongly falling into the AS category.

No, he's not receiving any services now. We would have to drive over two hours to get any. Once he sees someone else (like a neuropsych), perhaps we can get some other kind of help for him.

Thanks again for your help.

Your entire post echoes my own thinking on the matter until just a few months ago. I would love for my ds to have access to others with his same interests, or better, other PG kids. As an adult, I have some of the same issues because my interests are so different that almost everyone I meet. Until about a year ago, my son did associate with older people. All but one of his "friends" was an adult. They loved him. I didn't think anything about it, but I do have to question this at least a bit, as this is a typical Asperger's thing, too, from what I understand. (Though, I have had the mom of a PG adult tell me that her child's friends were always adults, and he did just fine. Still, I can't blow-off his AS dx just yet.)

I know one child with AS, a girl. She seems quite different to me than my son, but they do try to have conversations about common interests. She likes to sit and talk 'at' my son, while he would prefer to talk 'with' her and discuss things in a different, more thoughtful way. This is the kind of thing that makes me want to move to the PG side and forget the AS. I just don't know, well, what each looks like, so it's difficult.

I thank you so much for your input. I love hearing the details of others' children. I hope to have him evaluated sometime over the next few months. I will try to update on this thread (and any other I've posted to in regard to my confusion).

No, I know nothing, but your description of your dd sounds so much like my ds. Since he was a baby, he's been quite sensitive to noise (and smells). He now can handle louder sounds than he used to, but I know he still gets startled fairly easily. Maybe he is reacting to the noise. When we found out that he was PG, I assumed this was an OE issue. I dealt with it too, though as with all other shared quirks, mine wasn't as intense as his. Hmmm... I'll have to ponder this and watch more closely. Thanks for sharing.


This sounds like me! Actually, I would typically roll my eyes and run in the other direction. Just kidding... I've learned to make allowances for all kinds, though some are easier than others. I KNOW people say the same about me. LOL


Yes! This has always been a source of confusion for me as well. They seem so similar, and without seeing other children who fall into these categories, I have a hard time telling where my ds really falls.


Yes! Yes! Yes! Ah, I so wish this could happen at least some of the time. That's why DYS seems appealing. Our ds had qualifying scores to apply for the DYS program, but we cannot get even one letter of recommendation. He's homeschooled and the contact we have with people doesn't really allow for him to shine. People will comment that he's smart, but that's all. I feel weird asking someone who doesn't teach him or know him well to write a recommendation. He generally keeps his smarts under wraps unless someone drags it out.

Okay, it's me again.... another thing that I would like to ask about in regard to my ds. He has MAJOR issues when it comes to anything timed, especially math. I've tried three computer/online math programs that are timed. They have all caused ds major anxiety. It's like he's on crack as soon as he knows that he's timed. He gets rigid, confused, and is quickly brought to tears, especially if he gets anything incorrect.No amount of trying to calm him would change this.

The only thing that did help him deal with the programs was when I typed in the answers for him. He was still super nervous and riddled with anxiety, but freeing up his hands let him focus on just giving the answer. He didn't turn into a puddle doing it this way, but I clearly felt like I was causing him unnecessary anxiety by asking him to do this math this way.

It was so bad that I just couldn't keep him on any of these programs for more than a day or two. I kept going back and trying different ones just to see if he was making any progress in this area as he improved his math skills. It didn't seem to matter. Math is the only subject he struggles with, by the way.

Is this a common issue with Asperger's?

Thanks again!

Mom2MrQ, I don't think there is anything typical about Asperger's + PG. That said, my son only has the AS label (his test scores are too scattered to be interpretable) and cannot cope with the timed math stuff either. Xtramath had him sobbing in front of the computer banging his head with his fists (the only time he exhibited such behavior) while being asked questions he could answer in his sleep. I had to stand there and hide the timer to allow him calm down enough to work through it.

Aleks has been much better for him (no timer!), and Dreambox before that (but you are probably well past that, since they only do K-4).

Oh, and the talking with vs. talking at people about subjects of interest is usually a tip-off toward not-AS, but the brighter the child the better at hiding symptoms, usually, so...

Can't really help much more, I have read the Dual/Misdiagnosis book section on AS 10 times and still can't figure it out. That said the label helped us get him help he really needed to better fit socially at school, so I am currently at peace with it.

I'd recommend trying to get those recommendation letters ASAP though. People with more experience of the process might be helpful, but if you have the scores have you tried to enroll him in some gifted summer program in an area of interest and get your recommendation from counselors/teachers?

Oh, and one thing Grinity often mentions. We are not really neutral observers.

And at home we tend to tailor the environment to our preferences and our children's preferences. You might have at home the highly structured, highly visual environment a spectrum child needs to thrive, just because you/your SO share some of the traits. Ditto for what gifted kids need (intellectual stimulation, books...).