Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional how can I rise my 2e son self-esteem ?

While my son's scores on the WISC-IV are nowhere near as high as your son's, the pattern of highs and lows is very similar - high VCI, lower PRI, very low PSI. My son has significant fine motor deficits and some visual processing problems that are not picked up with an ordinary eye exam - left-sided visual neglect, scotopic sensitivity, problems with tracking and convergence, poor figure-ground discrimination, and so on. He also has formal diagnoses of Asperger's Syndrome and Disorder of Written Expression.

The problems with motor output, visual processing, and visual-motor coordination (which correspond to the very low PSI scores,and which adversely impacted the PRI) make it very difficult for him to write legibly, and even harder for him to write legibly and still think about the content of what he is writing while he is writing. When he was your son's age, my son really needed a scribe to record what he wanted to say: the mismatch between what he had in his head and what he was able to get out of it on paper was so huge that it was too frustrating for him to even try - trying to write by hand made him feel stupid and he felt that it was useless.

Kindergarten was miserable; he was constantly depressed and frustrated because everything was either too easy or too hard. This rapidly progressed to outright refusal or avoidance behavior when asked to do anything involving a writing task or really any visual or motor task that he didn't think he'd be able to do, or anything that he'd mastered so long ago that he felt it was insulting. He had a choice of trying to do the work and having evidence stare him in the face that he was incapable, or refusing and getting consequences for being disobedient, but not being ashamed of not being able to complete the written work acceptably (which he clearly saw was not difficult for others). He would rather have been seen as disobedient than as stupid. Refusing to work allowed him to preserve some shred of his self esteem, but at a huge cost. The consequences of being in this kind of a school situation were a big part of our decision to homeschool.

As he got older, he learned to use the keyboard independently, and that has worked reasonably well for him, but it doesn't for some kids.If what he is trying to write is very complex or difficult, he still benefits from using a scribe so that he doesn't have to concentrate at all on the motor planning part of things.

Based on my experiences with my own child, "work" that is appropriate to the PSI level or that requires a lot of motor output or handwriting, but is not at or at least near the challenge point for the VCI and PRI level is a recipe for disaster.

Specialized occupational therapy to help rehabilitate the visual issues was incredibly helpful in improving my son's reading speed and fluency, BTW.

There are other things besides motor skills deficits and visual problems that can cause a low PSI score, including ADHD, but I wanted to be sure you knew that ADHD is often not the main problem with a score profile like this.

I don't know if my son would count as one of Grinity's 10 gifted/Asperger's data points, but I wanted to put it out there for you.

well, he had "motor skills" tests (I do not know the English for "motor skills" therapist). None of them made the therapist think about motor problems ... Nevertheless, when I observ him, I think he is often embarrassed by his own body, but not that much.
He has visual preocessing problems (not that much) and he is followed by a therapist for that.

This needs a long reply I don't really have time for right now, but I see that Grinity and aculady have given excellent (as usual) feedback I won't cover again. Just add my +1s


Pretty much this:


Was she Freudian or Lacanian? (this forum sorely lacks my most useful emoticon, the eye roll). Yep, France is still hung up on the refrigerator mother theory of autism, and the most commonly available "therapy" is Freudian psycho-analysis.

http://www.soutenonslemur.org/2012/...-sur-la-situation-de-lautisme-en-france/ (in French)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/h...utism-strongly-criticized-in-france.html (in English)

(the subject of autism treatment in France is currently high visibility -- http://www.soutenonslemur.org/ is anti-psy but has a good collection of press clips on the subject).

This might also be helpful: http://www.aspergeraide.com/index.php (French)


Well, that VIQ/IQ is going to make ruling Asperger's in/out tricky. I hope the person you are meeting with has experience with that combo (the 1/10,000 IQ, the undefined "other(s)")


But it helped some with classroom behaviors...

ADHD and meds is not my... area of interest but I would be wondering about aggression appearing right after the drugs were started. Have you talked with the neurologist about the home issues? Have your tried weaning him off the meds, maybe during the last summer vacations, to see if the aggressive behavior went away?

I hope somebody with more experience (and especially someone who has gone through several med protocols) can chime in here.


But... it won't be enough. Unfortunately.

Yes, I am familiar (well, 30 years out of date familiar) with the situation in France. I am French, although I have been living in the US for a while now (and with my own maybe 2E child, not going back anytime soon).

Retention (redoublement) is only going to make things worse for him, I am afraid, but a grade skip (which would be much exponentially easier to get than in the US) won't help either.

Drawing a blank on suggestions. Homeschooling is probably not an option (parental sanity seems to be in serious danger as it is). Has the speech therapist (orthophoniste), who seems to get him, been able to give any suggestions on keeping his mind fed *at school* while working at his comprehension level? The fact that the teacher scribes for him is actually wonderful.


A lot of warning signs for Asperger's there, down to the playing preferentially with girls.

A lot of warning signs for a PG child who is increasingly disconnected from age peers and their interests and starting to shut down.

The fact that he connects so well with his sister, who is probably his only intellectual peer in your village, is... a good thing.

And BTW, is the school thinking about skipping her (sauter un classe)? Because she might need it. Soon.



Because she wants him to read instead? What about reading lower level books and listening to things a 7 year old wouldn't be expected to read anyway?

Ergotherapeute? That would be an OT is the US.

My son is about 6 months older than yours, nowhere as high [1] on the gifted scale, and got a formal diagnosis of Asperger's last spring. We are struggling daily with similar issues (including nagging worries about stealth dyslexia, although he is currently reading at or above grade level in 2 of his 3 languages).

And I finally (stupid blinking envelope) saw your PM. More there in French...





[1] although after reading another post on the DAS-II in the archives it is possible that his verbal IQ on that test, with tests administered at a lower than recommended level (because of the multilingual issue?) but still well within the norming scale *might* add up to ~145. His VIQ on the WISC was 99

Raoul,

I unfortunately don't have time to read thoroughly all the replies since your last reply or to put together a well-thought out response at the moment, but I wanted to let you know that many of us here no doubt understand all too well how difficult life must be right now for your son, as well as for you. Although my ds does not have ADHD, he has a similar (although not quite as large) split between Processing Speed and the other portions of the WISC. Back when he was the age of your ds and we were just finding out what his challenges were life was just absolutely the pits at times - school was a mess, our son was beyond frustrated and anxious, and we (parents) were clueless. Although I can't help read enough at the moment to help with specific advice, I wanted to let you know - once you get past those first years of figuring out what's up, learning all you can about your child's challenges, and then advocating to get him what he needs at school - life really really does get much better. It's still very different than it would have been raising a neurotypical child, but you'll get back some of what seems lost right now.

Back in your original post you asked the question, how can you help raise your son's self-esteem - so for today, I'll go back to just answering that question. While you keep trying your best to understand his challenges, be sure to take time just to be with him, to read to him, to have fun playing with him - anything he loves to do.

polarbear

My daughter has a boy classmate. His parents are experimenting with ADHD medicines. The current one helps during school hours. But after school, something is happening with the medicine that makes him very aggressive. He is hitting everyone on the playground. Even the most loyal friends and their parents are pulling away because he is hurting their children. His mother has to go back to the doctor and see what they can do next.

So, it might be good to call the pediatrician and talk about the aggression. There could be a link between the new aggression and the medicine. Every parent I've known who chooses medicines for their child's issues has gone through an experimental stage with dosage, types, and timing.

Also, with very intelligent children, there is that huge difference between intellect and maturity. I read a few years ago that the age between 4 and 9 for "asynchronous development" is the most difficult. It does get better with time as the gap closes. Also when there is more available to the child to channel their intellect.

I give you much credit for all of your reading and translating. If I had to go on a French (or any other language!) site to get help it just would not happen. It is very impressive. Best of luck.

Hi, Raoul--


Yes, this is tremendously stressful on parents. This is why I advocate finding some respite help (someone to look after your son and give you a break sometimes)-- it doesn't have to be a tutor, anyone who can keep him safe and occupied can give you space to breathe.


I think you're right to look at this possibility.


Raoul, nobody with any sense believes that about mothers and so forth. That is 1950s pseudoscience. I am appalled that a professional said that to you.


None of this rules out Asperger's, and the "weird" communication rather suggests it.


There has been recent news coverage here suggesting that children with autism are not well treated in France, with some families traveling to neighboring countries to seek treatment.


Raoul, for my DS9 (who has Asperger's) ADHD meds alone would not work at all. The stimulant increases focus but also creates more anxiety-- which is intolerable. We found that our DS needs an SSRI (antidepressant) to decrease anxiety. This also helps him tolerate the ADHD med. If I had to live without one of these drugs, I would omit the ADHD med and keep the SSRI-- it has been very important for him to live with less anxiety, and he has flourished since we chose this path.


My DS found soccer impossible too. It's better now (he's 9). He is better at sports like swimming, which are more orderly and don't require figuring out a whole crowd of people at once.


It will be important for him to know that he learns and thinks differently from other people; that he has some wonderful skills and abilities; and that his differences are not his fault. The sooner this becomes an accepted topic of conversation in your family, the better. My DS went through an awful time of blaming himself for his bad behavior; now he knows why, and it's easier for him to accept that he makes these mistakes sometimes. Very important for self-esteem.

Best wishes--
DeeDee

Just a quick comment for tonight on

Well believe it or not, in France, it is not a specialist but most specialists who say this kind of stupid things to parents who are already so anxious and desperate... I just simply hate them now. Most of psychologists do not even know about neuroscience and believe that Freud or Lacan said everything possible concerning human nature ... I am speaking of nowadays and not of 50 years ago... I had to face psychologists who assured us that giftedness is just a parental construction ... I am used to be on a French forum on ADHD and almost every family started their obstacle course by such experience with psychologist just making families guilty. And it can last very very long. For us, it lasts "only" something like 18 months, but some families can be followed in French official institution without any diag (ADHD, giftedness, ASperger, ...) for years and years.

Moreover, shrinks (a word learnt in Woody Allen's moovies :)) are not the only one. You can find about half of the OTs who are of psycholanalytic obedience

Concerning Austism, I do not know if in the US, you heard about the movie "le mur" (The Wall in English ... nothing to do with Pink Flyod...) but it is very typical of how stupid some shrinks can be ... . SIaSL also wrote about that movie too in her last answer.

Well, I'll try tomorrow to write about what interests me : my DS and your once again very interesting answers (many of you could be better than the large majority of French psychologists .... )

I believe you. It's just horrifying and sad.

The coverage I saw, which suggests that many French families are seeking care in Belgium as medical refugees, was here:

http://thinkingautismguide.blogspot.com/2012/01/culture-of-abuse-autism-care-in-france.html

DeeDee

ETA: the film (The Wall) is here in entirety. http://www.supportthewall.org/2011/12/watch-the-wall-le-mur-by-sophie-robert/