Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Best test to look into low memory for digits etc?

This is my first post and I hope I make sense.

I am considering having my DD8 tested again, since her results from K met qualifications for DYS but I decided not to pursue it then. I thought I could manage on my own but now that's she's in 3rd and with the history of everything we've tried and unsuccessful results, it's obvious we need support if she's ever to be properly challenged in school. I work hard to get her out in the community and she shines if she's at any class such as museums or the larger lego club at the main library, any time the leader adores original and bright kids and the other kids are also outside the box, she just floats she's so happy. But school is another difficult and rather pathetic story year after year and it drains her so much.

When exploring who to choose to administer the testing and which tests would be best, I want to incorporate the following information this time (see details in next paragraph) in case there is an underlying issue that needs to be revealed, or if it might bring her overall score down for one test versus another.

She's been in a reading study for a few years and one thing that stands out is, though most of the results are very high, in the high 90s percentile range, two scores for the CTOPP are low, Memory for Digits and Nonword Repition, and they aren't even average they end up 37th and 25th percentile-ish, consistent from year to year.

Her KBAC-III scores from K also show that the items related to short-term memory are "average" where everything else is superior or very superior. She's strongest with anything to do with reasoning ability, long-term storage and retrieval and visual processing.

Does anyone know if this "reveals" anything or is it just like my DH says, she just didn't like those parts of the testing? Is there a "best test" for a profile like this, in case issues need to be tickled out?

Thanks.

I'm responding to this to bump it back up. There are lots of folks on here who know way more about testing than I, but I'll throw in what tiny bit I know from our own WPPSI testing and recent dyslexia testing, which included the CTOPP.

To help the group in answering your question - what tests did she have done in K, and what tests has she had done as part of this reading study? Are you looking for additional testing, or just interpretation of testing you've already had done? (Or maybe you're not sure which you need, in which case, this group should be able to help you.)

Since I don't know much about testing, I'll tell you what we've had done and the results we've gotten out of those tests that may be somewhat pertinent to your DD. If you've had similar tests done, but no helpful information out of them, finding someone to interpret them may be more cost effective than more tests.

Based on your original post, and on our own results from our WPPSI and dyslexia testing, I'd say you've likely identified the culprit - her short term memory is not at the same level as the rest of her abilities - and now you need to know what to do about it. The tester who did DS's dyslexia testing a month ago gave us a 14 page report with conclusions and recommendations. It sounds like you need those types of recommendations on how your daughter can get help with her short term memory so school is not so exhausting.

So here's what we got out of the testing we've had done:
- Our DS7 had WPPSI-III testing done at age 5.5. Testing revealed a gap between processing speed (50-somethingth percentile) and other subtests (98th/99th percentile). The tester told us how this would likely play out as he gets older and gave us strategies to address it. Working memory (which I think equates to short term memory) is on the WISC, but not on the WPPSI. Others on this forum can hopefully tell you whether you get enough additional info from the WISC to do IQ testing again, if your DD took the WPPSI the first time around.

- We started to see the processing speed problems play out over the first two months of 1st grade this year. We had a dyslexia evaluation done, where they were able to use the previous WPPSI-III testing. That tester administered the following: CTOPP, GORT-4, TOWRE, TWS, and WJIII. We received a 14 page report from her with her conclusions and recommendations at the end. The results were that he's not dyslexic, but that his processing speed is playing out in his reading and that he probably also has lower working memory. His scores on most tests were quite high, but it took him an inordinate amount of time and concentration to get those scores. He scored 37th percentile in the Memory for Digits subtest like your DD (but scored high on the nonword repetition subtest).

- We got a set of recommendations primarily focused around building his fluency through tutoring and an online program, but also recommendations for his teachers to implement, including removal of time limits on tests and not grading on spelling unless it's a spelling test. School cannot provide any kind of tutoring because he's performing above grade level, so we're doing that privately, but they can implement the other recommendations. It will be helpful for you to get similar types of recommendations for your DD, based on whatever her specific needs are determined to be.

Regarding your last paragraph of your post, it sounds that you suspect there's a gap between her short term memory and other abilities and that the CTOPP is accurately revealing this. That sounds reasonable based on the rest of your post, and I'm not sure I agree with your DH. If you find a good educational specialist in your area, they can also help you decide if the current testing you have is adequate, and you just need them to interpret them for you and provide some recommendations, or whether more testing would be helpful.

Is your dd in a "reading study" group based on high ability or because she's shown signs of struggling with reading (or some other entirely unrelated reason)? If she's been identified by the school as struggling or if you've worried about specific things you've noticed (such as having a tough time learning phonics, stumbling over words when she reads outloud... etc...) then I'd definitely look into further testing or ask for help with deciphering the testing you already have. FWIW, I think it's also possibly telling that your dd shines in groups outside of school but not in school - yes, that could be all due to lack of intellectual challenge in school... but maybe part of the picture is a struggle related to reading or short term memory which is used in school but can be worked around in other situations?

I don't know that I can help with advice relevant to your dd's situation, but I can share a little bit about testing and my own 2e kids - I have two 2e kids, one of whom has dysgraphia and possibly stealth dyslexia (as defined by the Eides), the other has struggled with reading and testing shows she has a challenge with associative memory (but isn't dyslexic). Both of my 2e kids have discrepancies in their IQ testing in one specific area - it's a different area for both, but in the case of my ds his scores in that area are in the low-mid average percentile and for my dd her scores are around the 25th percentile. Just looking at those scores by themselves they don't look like anything huge - just a simple blip in sets of otherwise high scores, and once you average them out, poof! They disappear But they play out in a *huge* way in terms of academic functioning (and life functioning) for each child, so for a child such as your dd who is scoring in the superior and very superior range on other IQ subtests, yes, it's quite possible that a dip down below average percentile in one subtest *might* mean something significant.

Although we haven't gotten quite as lengthy reports as Coll we have gotten specific suggestions on how our kids' challenges will impact them and what types of remediation we should pursue as well as what accommodations they should have at school. My recommendation is to look into private neuropsych testing if it's not out of reach financially (we were able to have it covered through our insurance). If private testing isn't going to be possible, then make a request for testing for LD/reading through your school.

I'm sorry if I veered off-track - I think from your OP you were looking to test again to qualify for DYS and were concerned one area might pull a score down, but from the rest that you wrote my advice is to look for testing to better understand what's up with the low areas of your dd's profile, and chances are you'll get the ability vs achievement testing you need for DYS through that.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Coll and polarbear,

Yes you really do seem to understand me...thank you!

Someone who could interpret scores so far would be a good start I�m also curious about additional testing to get another profile that will allow me to understand and support her with any home support I can do and, if needed, accommodations at school but I�m not holding my breath based on previous experiences. But I might try if I had the write words/guidance.

Also I�d like to have a framework to help her learn about herself and her learning styles since she�s getting more mature and more on board with learning structured ideas to help make things more smoothly. She�s learning that if the work she�s required to do goes more efficiently, there is more time for her to do what SHE wants to do!

A big concern is that school makes her completely exhausted, which cycles into a difficulty getting her out into the world where she really has fun and meets a variety of people. She is very outgoing. Her OT says she must have to do a tremendous amount of compensating, not just from the gifted perspective (being under challenged and most kids not knowing what she�s talking about unless she acts silly) but she also has �accute hearing� (oversensitive - though she gets more tolerance as each year goes by - when it gets too loud it�s like she can�t hear anything at all), coordination disorder, left/right challenges. Pretty disorganized from a left-brain perspective, very visual-spatial.

DD has a fantastic photo-type memory and does rely on it. I don't know to what extend but I think when she is in circumstances where she can't do her little compensation routine she gets upset. During vision exams we found she's cheated for a couple of years, probably, and was well overdue for lenses. This last place she went to they picked up on it, there were very bright med students and she wasnt' going to fool them. DD said "HEEEEEYYYYY!" she was pretty shocked. They had a screen where they could change the letters quickly and did.

Teacher says �alot of the kids are tired� but my daughter isn�t hyper-scheduled, very little screen time, she has lots of time for relaxing at home, games/drawing/building, messing around. We eat dinner at home the same time every day and she has a 8-3:30 bedtime (gettting up about 6:30 am). She walks about a mile a day to and from school on school days. She is otherwise healthy, eats nice healthy diet, can go like an energizer bunny during the summer...can spend literally hours in the water with plenty of energy to do something else afterward. It�s school that just really seems to shatter her. Organization not too good with remembering paperwork, etc., but is this maturity, her learning style, because she gets tired there or due to a LD, or are the two interrelated?

Her reading group has been reading the same book since September. I don�t really understand what they do. DD says they have to keep reading over and over the same things to build fluency. We just had the conference after Thanksgiving and there is not another report card until June. March conferences include the kids so you have to be careful what you say etc. I�m really into not rocking the boat at all this year. Just want to get more info/possible scores to continue to help out of school, develop her talents interests to build up her confidence.

As for previous tests...

KABC-II in K long-term storage and retrieval, visual processing, crystalized ability all 99th/99.9th or �>99.9th� except for �Short Term Memory� 79th percentile (which is considered �high average�). It looks like the short term memory went into calculating the full scale.

The reading study at a university is just sort of a coincidence. She started in K and it�s long term. They don�t offer interpretation but you get the scores. From one year to another (haven�t received this year�s yet) everything on the CPOTT is over 90th percentile except memory for digits and nonword repetition, well below 50th percentile) and blending words is in the mid 70th percentile.

TOWRE is all above 90th.
PPVT-III is 95th
WJ-III subtests story recall, understanding directions, picture vocabulary, oral comprehension all in high 90s percentile.
GORT-4 99th


She seemed more comfortable reading upside down until start of 2nd grade. She started reading about 3 � she had her own process. I didn�t work with her but answered any questions she had. Handwriting an issue from the beginning but I just thought they started too early.

Still needs to make an effort to remember to correct upper/lower case, has a hard time with left/right (doesn�t take dance any more, as teachers are more serious with other kids and it�s not cute any more to be so off from the rest of the class, she refuses to participate). Organized sports, we just don�t bother any more. She swims in free pool time, walks, bikes, scooters, plays around.

The school has been given the scores in an effort to understand her/us advocating for academic fit. This never happens. The school has never tested her with their own tests and never mentions our stuff. We tried pushing it last year since she was having a hard time (very frustrated, learning nothing, not �meshing�) but they refused to test her. I have kept the snappish e-mail from the principal, for my own sanity if nothing else, since nobody would probably believe it if I told them. The pull-out program is enrichment only, little projects and things...very political, she wasn�t recommended and we didn�t bother pressing the issue. She mostly responds to home study and getting out into the world.

She meets her targets for the grade they keep her in (has never been accelerated due to their concerns re social/emotional). Sometimes aces tests, sometimes shakey. I don�t always understand the difference of what�s happening, if it�s how she feels or how they�ve learned, how the test is structured.

We do OT privately. Help from a pediatric ophthalmologist is helping with vision/convergence issues. I have mentioned it in conferences and written notes (responding to complaints such as difficult handwriting, hard time tying shoes) but it doesn�t amount to any discussions with regard to accommodating/helping her. There are 20 kids in the class with an aide and a special ed teacher. Suburban setting.

Thanks again for your replies.

About the reading study, it is not done at school, it's a community/university, completely independent thing. It compares struggling readers to non-struggling. DD has never been below level with reading which is part of the problem when I try to ask about these discrepancies. They say if she doesn't read below level she can't be LD. I just want to look into it more, have someone who knows about 2E look into it.

No insight on the other items, but my 8yo still needs about an hour more sleep than this. If your DD wakes cheerfully on her own at 6:30, she's almost certainly getting enough sleep, but mine is grouchily shaken awake at 7:30 if bedtime ran later than 8:30 the night before.

AlexsMom,
I know what you mean, I have considered this too, but she does crash at that bedtime and pops up on her own at that waking time or often before. Thanks!