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    Joined: Oct 2010
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    Ok... So this got WAY too long, but I've written it now so I am going to post it!


    Originally Posted by Dude
    [quote=Giftodd]
    A gifted athlete has the same experience as a gifted student. It doesn't look like effort for them to hone it, because they have physical advantages that their competitors don't. And since playing sports is fun for them, they pursue it naturally.

    It's only when a gifted athlete competes against other gifted athletes that effort begins to become a major factor. It's their spelling bee.

    My point was not that gifted athletes do not find what they do easier than others, my point is that even exceptional athletes have to work very hard to get to the top and most people are happy for someone else to commit the effort (you only need to look at the number of people whose participation in sport is great - but is mostly enacted from their couch). The average person can contribute no more than hitting a button or two on their remote to reap some benefit from this sports star's amazing physical prowess (I.e. enjoying and wondering at their skill).

    Even if a child is doing well at the local swim meet, to take that talent further requires physical effort. To take it to the top requires extreme physical effort, commitment and sacrifice. Little Sally, in the next lane, her mum might feel I am bragging if I talk about how quickly my own daughter is getting ahead - but ultimately she and I know that of we take it further it will involves a significant sacrifice by all our family. There is an obvious cost for that success. If my daughter won, say, a state competition her school would publicly celebrate it even her performance was in no way associated with the school. External sporting achievement is regularly celebrated at dd's school. An academic achievement has never been in her time at school.

    The fact that sport, art music, etc are things that people find enjoyable even if they are not exceptional at it helps as well. These are things people can imagine wanting to do and can understand why someone would choose to pursue (and can possibly even imagine themselves doing - however realistic this may or may not be - if they were just willing to commit to it or it weren't for their bung knee etc). They understand it, they may feel they have a choice about it and if they don't feel they have a choice (say, like me, they are surprised they can walk given their lack of coordination) they generally feel ok about it and that there aren't too many things riding on their ability to be a great 'X' (most jobs don't require outstanding physical ability - if they did, the perhaps we'd see the reverse of this issue)

    In Australia it's my experience (and others might have found things to be different) that while you'd appear to be bragging if you came out and said 'my little Penny is the best swimmer in the State', if you said 'little Penny can't come to Johnny's party because she's got swimming trials' no one would bat an eyelid. If you said she couldn't come because she had a spelling bee people would feel sorry for Penny, think you were stealing her childhood AND implying your kid was smarter than theirs or that they were deficient parents for not insisting that Johnny do spelling bees. There is so much in the media and advertising about being able to meaningfully increase IQ (yes, I know, another controversial topic) that not only are you saying your kid is smarter if you mention an academic achievement, but I wonder too if there'd isn't an implication they are not good enough parents too?

    I just think sport and other areas of physical excellence - including music and art are definable and easy to understand (I often think about a little girl who was in my mothers' group who was quite obviously an extraordinarily talented painter, even at 3 - no one batted an eyelid when her mum mentioned - in a friendly way - what her daughter was up to). Intelligence is much harder to understand and is therefore, as I see it, prone to being perceived as tricksy. As someone else said, we all have it and rely on it to make our lives what they are. Because of things like theory of mind (where by we attribute mental states to others, which we can only really do from our own understanding) it's difficult to understand what it means for someone to be smarter than you - and if someone isn't responding the way you expect them to then you might reasonably doubt the they are smarter than you.

    Also people in positions of authority are often presented as being smarter than others - politicians, bosses, etc., despite that not necessarily being the case. These are people who might be perceived as (or who are actually) trying to manipulate us, rip us off etc. So then smarts (whether real or imagined) become untrustworthy in another way - it can be used against you. But these are also roles that 'normal' people aspire to (well... maybe not being a politician...) The are only a few positions that are going to be filled by great sports people, so given the effort/commitment/sacrifice you'd want to be pretty sure you had a chance of getting to get to the top for it to be worth the risks. Better off trying for one of the billions of 'normal' jobs out there - but try and get the best one you can. So for most people it matters how smart they are in their day to day lives. The smarter person is competition - untrustworthy competition at that!

    So to my mind and experience, talking about sporting achievement is an everyday, possibly irritating to others, but not friend loosing, variety of potential bragging. The costs for ultimate success are high and so that talent is only a threat to the person willing to make similar sacrifices - and the benefits of success are shared. Talking about academic achievement effects me personally. It means your child might have better life chances than mine (because the majority of us are competing for jobs in what is theoretically a meritocracy), I might feel that I should have done more to make little Sarah smarter (believing I could have influenced her IQ), I might feel that your child might be tricksy and manipulative - might out smart and take advantage without deserving it. Your child might be getting access to more resources than mine, further increasing their advantage etc, etc.

    Of course I am making generalizations here and I am not suggesting these are conscious thoughts. I just think intelligence is a much more loaded advantage than physical skill.


    "If children have interest, then education will follow" - Arthur C Clarke
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    Originally Posted by Giftodd
    So to my mind and experience, talking about sporting achievement is an everyday, possibly irritating to others, but not friend loosing, variety of potential bragging. The costs for ultimate success are high and so that talent is only a threat to the person willing to make similar sacrifices - and the benefits of success are shared. Talking about academic achievement effects me personally. It means your child might have better life chances than mine (because the majority of us are competing for jobs in what is theoretically a meritocracy), I might feel that I should have done more to make little Sarah smarter (believing I could have influenced her IQ), I might feel that your child might be tricksy and manipulative - might out smart and take advantage without deserving it. Your child might be getting access to more resources than mine, further increasing their advantage etc, etc.

    Of course I am making generalizations here and I am not suggesting these are conscious thoughts. I just think intelligence is a much more loaded advantage than physical skill.

    I don't agree that the benefits of athletic achievement are more "shared" than the benefits of intellectual achievement. If your friend's daughter trains hard and improves her swimming time by 1 second, who benefits? If your daughter studies hard and becomes a good doctor, many people benefit.


    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell
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    I don't mean that your kid swimming at the local pool is perceived to have a broader benefit (though often sports teams - here at least - are very involved in their local communities), rather I mean that the ultimate out come of investing in sporting talent is something that can be enjoyed by lots of people (the Super Bowl doesn't get the massive advertising spending is does because no one is watching and enjoying it).

    I am not saying I feel sport benefits a broader group of people than intelligence does. I find people's interest in competitive sport completely baffling. What I am saying is that people can get enjoyment from and participate in sport as a result of other people's effort without expending any effort of their own (through watching it, through the social interaction and camaraderie that comes with supporting a team etc). I'm not even saying that people think about sport being of greater benefit - just the in the community's mind sport = good.

    Society's benefit from smart people is often much less tangible (sure, as an example, some smart person created vaccines that are capable of wiping major diseases in the world, but when I'm getting my kid vaccinated all I'm thinking about is that she's in pain and I'll have to keep an eye out for reactions. As a result my kid doesn't get an illness, but the illness no longer exists in my part of the world anyway -sure, because of vaccines, but I don't think about that - so there is no obvious result to me from this wonderful piece of science). Society likes smart people when they do something heroic (which sports people are perceived to do all the time), like save lives. But otherwise most people don't have much direct experience of smart people in a way that embraces and celebrates their talent, becuase so much of 'being smart' is done behind closed doors and the results become part of our everyday experience without us realizing it.

    I am not saying sport is more valuable - just why I think there is a difference between people's perceptions of accademic vs sporting achievement.

    (typed on my phone - apologies if there are random made up words dotted throughout...)


    Last edited by Giftodd; 02/10/12 05:00 PM.

    "If children have interest, then education will follow" - Arthur C Clarke
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    Originally Posted by Giftodd
    In Australia it's my experience (and others might have found things to be different) that while you'd appear to be bragging if you came out and said 'my little Penny is the best swimmer in the State', if you said 'little Penny can't come to Johnny's party because she's got swimming trials' no one would bat an eyelid. If you said she couldn't come because she had a spelling bee people would feel sorry for Penny, think you were stealing her childhood AND implying your kid was smarter than theirs or that they were deficient parents for not insisting that Johnny do spelling bees.

    I never really thought about this and I suppose I should consider myself fortunate. Our kids go to a public school, but one where academics is given primary importance. At our school, "I'm taking Penny to a spelling bee" gets the same positive reaction as "I'm taking Penny to swimming trials".

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    I have to chime in on the sports discussion because I was a MG kid IQ over 140 and a HG athlete. I was the top recruit in the country for my sport and was asked to graduate high school early because I was that good. My Mom said no so I graduated on time and went to the top school in the country for my sport- which is also a top university. I was on the National Team and competed internationally. I also had a career ending injury in college which changed my whole life. What I learned is that my sports training made me more prepared for the corporate world than most of my fellow students. There has been research that says an Olympic athlete can accomplish in 6 hours what a normal person does in 8. In a corporate setting- I understand team, and how individual accomplishment can help a team more than someone who never played sports. That being said, most of my friends know what my background is and make a lot Of assumptions about howvi am going to raise my kids and that I will be a pushy sports Mom. Both are really good athletes- my dd may even be great- but she is only 7 and time will tell. My gifted ds9( not sure where on the spectrum he falls but would guess between MG and HG) is a good athlete but it took a lot to get my parents to understand that athletics are not his greatest gift- his brain is. My friends are shocked he has dropped out of sports because the culture here is more more more sports. They ask about it EVERY time I see them. I happily say he prefers to have his nose in a book- he is just going to be a different kid. Maybe I feel a little bit like I need to justify his lack of sports participation- since they always ask him to play or why isn't he playing. But really I am just speaking the truth. I will often chime in and say- after my 13 knee surgeries I am perfectly happy having an academic smile.
    Sports can create people that greatly contribute to the world as they are not all dumb jocks smile

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    At my daughter's (truly terrible) school, buses go to the athletes first. Her Knowledgebowl group has missed three meets because there was not a bus available.

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    I really love and hate this whole conversation at the same time. I am kind of new to this and have felt so isolated so it's awesome to know there's a group of people who are feeling similar things, but also I feel so frustrated that people are so easily offended and that I need to be so over thinking when I say things about my child. I have definitely resorted to not talking about his abilities or achievements but feel very awkward when people ask me a question that involves a truthful answer that could be considered braggy. I have always been good at math or science but never good with language and communication and am no where near as gifted as my son or people on this board. I am always well intentioned wih anything I do or say but somehow when it comes to talking about any accomplishments or challenges with my son it almost always comes out wrong. When someone brags to me about their child, even intentionally, I never think negatively of them. I just think " oh they might be bragging but that's awesome!" anyway, I'm hoping I can get guidance here from all of you nice people... I'm still learning and it truly upsets me when people take things I say the wrong way. I'm hoping I will be able to find a group of people who understands. I hate that I'm always afraid to talk to people with normal children. I'm a stay at home mom so my kids are my life and I don't have much to talk about so I mostly just listen and talk about the other persons kids. Like someone else said though I want my son to be proud of his accomplishments too. We always call grandma to tell her how great he did at something. I really enjoy reading all your posts and have gotten some good ideas on how to better say things even though I really dislike having to be so careful =]. Thanks!

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    I found myself having to hold my tongue about my daughter having tested for the local gifted school this weekend as my friend was telling me how her 8 year old is swimming with the 13 year olds now on her team while we were at lunch today. I hate that I have to hide her abilities so as to not alienate myself.

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