Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional New Here with a Question about 2E

What are the parameters to classify a child as 2E?

I have always known my son was bright but when he started 1st grade he started showing signs of an attention disorder according to his teacher. In second grade the complaints about his attention continued and he was slow finishing math tests. She requested that we retain him in 2nd grade so that he would "mature" and be "able to finish work in a timely manner" and I refused because I didn't feel retaining him when he was otherwise on grade level (other than a low fluency score) would only exacerbate his "focus" issues.

In his elementary school they use worksheets for most subjects and he is slow to finish them and even slower if he knows there will be 9 or 10 of them that day.

In 3rd grade the complaints about his focus became more frequent and again he was slow to finish math tests and worksheets. Finally I requested testing. The school brought in an outside psychologist who specializes in LD diagnosis and who does evaluations often.

His WISC IV scores were:

Full Scale IQ: 119 (90%)

Verbal Comprehension Index: 132 (98%)

Perceptual Reasoning Index: 121 (92%)

Working Memory Index: 110 (75%)

Processing Speed Index: 85 (16%)


She also diagnosed him with ADHD. She said that his attenion difficulties are from external influences (what is going on around him) and from internal influences (his own thoughts). He gets distracted with some tasks because they make his brain take it to higher levels. For instance: when the psychologist tested him she had him read a list of words as part of the test. Halfway through he stopped and said to her: How do you think we got language? I mean who created this symbol (pointing to a letter) and called it an "a" (or whatever it was) and then this symbol (pointing to a different letter) and called it a "b". And then how did they put these symbols together to form the word that represents something we know. And then there are different symbols in Spanish and Chinese that mean the same things as us but in different ways. How did this all begin and how did they pass it on? Meanwhile the psychologist is saying: please just read the words. haha

Speaking with special education teacher friends they have never seen such a huge discrepancy between the Verbal Comprehension/Perceptual Reasoning and the Processing Speed as my son's WISC showed.

So would he be considered 2E?

This years teacher (4th grade) took some time to get onboard with his diagnosis and to stop calling him defiant and to stop saying that he is making a choice not to finish his work in a timely manner. We do have a 504 plan that allows for extra time on tests and assignments and to have large assigments broken up into sections/allow him to do less problems as long as he gets it (which he does...the psychologist said it takes my son maybe only 5 problems to master something when it takes the rest of the class 20 problems). Things have been better in the last 2 months he has actually been finishing work and focusing better in class since the teacher started to use the strategies listed in the 504 plan but I dread starting over in 5th grade with a new teacher. New teacher = teacher who doesn't understand why someone so obviously smart can struggle so much in school so they try to fit his square peg into a round hole.

I'm no expert but your son looks like he is 2e. I'm sure that the testing experts will chime in but I think that with such a huge discrepancy between his PSI and the rest of his scores that they should not have reported a FSIQ. Did the psychologist give you his GAI, General Ability Index, which is based on his VCI and PRI? You can calculate it yourself if you were given the subtest scores see
WISC-IV Technical Report #4: General Ability Index
www.ksde.org/Portals/0/.../gifted/WISCIVTechReport4.pdf
You may want to repost your question in the identification and testing portion of the forum.

Looks 2e to me - I'm on my phone at the moment which means I'm typing challenged but fwiw here are a few thoughts - from the parent of two 2e kids:

1) it's important to understand what's driving the dip in processing speed - it could be a number of things, fine motor challenge, visual challenge etc and you need that info to develop a good and appropriate rt of accommodations. Extended time is a bit of a throw-it-at-every problem and hope it works accommodation.

2) does he complain at all about handwriting or does his handwriting appear either sloppy or slow? Have you tried letting him do his assignments via keyboarding? Have his teachers tried giving him the option of oral answers on timed tests and does that improve his scores?

3) Did the school offer any kind of SLP or OT screening?

4) most of us 2e parents eventually have private eval'd because the info given by the school is not as detailed as it could be and leaves us with unanswered questions. Private neuropsychs will also usually add additional testing to determine the cause of discrepancies like you're seeing.

Gotta run - hope that makes sense!

polarbear

This sounds a lot like my gifted 2e child. She's off on tangents a lot. She had significantly lower WMI and PSI scores than VCI and PRI, though, and I understand that the WMI is often impacted by ADD although I wouldn't say that his not being super low indicates that it isn't ADD.

I have ! My oldest had a 94 (42nd percentile) PSI score @ 7 and VCI at the 99th percentile. My youngest had a 142 (99.7th percentile) VCI and around the 50th percentile for PSI and WMI. FWIW, my oldest is not 2e but my youngest is. The difference is that my oldest had high scores in all indeces except PSI and she had somewhat wonky scores due to anxiety at the time even within her higher scoring indeces; she refused to complete some tests and got really low scores and others that topped out the test.

I'd say that knowing it to be 2e is more of an art than a science. Someone might look @ my older dd's profile from 7 and say 2e, but knowing the kid and seeing her performance over time, she isn't 2e so much as she was a stressed kid coming off of a really hard school year when she was tested. My 2e one looks totally different. Inconsistent performance is a hallmark of ADD. Mine is definitely highly inconsistent to say the least.

His GAI certainly should have been calculated with the discrepency btwn his scores, too. You can do it yourself using this chart if you have the scaled scores. My rough guess would be that it would come out around 126 which is the 96th percentile. That may not mean much more to his school but it may be enough to qualify him for GT services b/c it surpasses the 95th percentile mark that many schools use.

Thank you for replying.

I was not given his GAI score but I figured it out using the link you guys posted.

His GAI is 130 and 98%

with a confidence level of 124-134 at 90% and 123-134 at 95%. I clearly have no clue what a confidence level is so my wording might seem weird to you. haha. I just copied all the way across the chart.

His subtest scores were:
Similarities: 16
Vocabulary: 17
Comprehension: 13
Block design: 11
Picture concepts: 17
Matrix reasoning: 12

.

Unfortunately our school doesn't have GT services.

Polarbear to answer a few questions: I'm not certain what is driving the dip in processing speed really. He doesn't seem to have fine motor skill issues or anything. He IS very analytical so sometimes he takes a long time on tasks like Math when you can look at a problem in different ways. He analyzes it to death to make sure he didn't miss anything. He also gets distracted by considering higher applications of the tasks that he is performing (like the word list). I'll keep thinking about it though and maybe something will jump out at me. He does have a delay at times when I read to him. He will laugh at a funny part after I have gone on to the next part.

He does complain about writing and his writing is sloppy though it has gotten better since his current teacher has been harping on it. He gets frustrated with the computer because it takes a long time for him to find the keys but we are working on teaching him to type now. His teacher DID mention that he was going to do his spelling tests and other similar types of tests orally but then never did. I'll have to ask him about that. It IS in his 504 plan to give assessments orally when appropriate.

The school told me that he didn't seem to have any issues to them that warranted SLP or OT screening. I did request that the SLP staff evaluate him because I was concerned by the delayed reaction when I read (and the teacher also noticed that at school) but the psychologist felt that he didn't have a processing issue and wouldn't need to be evaluated by SLP.

I think you're right...I need to look for a neuropsych. This Psychologist was an independent evaluator...she isn't a school psych. But I wonder if there is another underlying issue here.

Absolutely, vehemently agree with all this. Nicely put, MON.

DeeDee

Master of None:

His coding score was a 6
And symbol search was a 9

They Administered:
the WISC IV
Woodcock-Johnson III
BASC-2 (parent, self, teacher)
Vanderbilt diagnostic parent rating scale
Vanderbilt Diagnostic Teacher Rating scale
Connor's rating scales (teacher/parent)

Through this evaluation the psychologist formally diagnosed him with ADHD but should I have other tests done that haven't been listed?

You hit the nail on the head when you said "If you know what to call it, you will be able to describe it to the teacher who will be able to look it up, and it will go much better than just saying your kid is slow and has a hard time focusing". That is exactly what I am after. I decided to start here to see if the 2e designation fits him. Mainly, I wasn't sure if his scores land him in the gifted category. At the very least I could explain THAT to them but yes, if there is something else that I should look for I will definitely try to explore other avenues. I don't have a lot of money so that is an issue unfortunately.

I also sent a reply about his GAI but I believe it went to the moderator for approval so it should be here when they get to it.

In the reply that is coming I said that I found that his GAI was 130 (98%).

My dd's ADD dx was based on the Connor's, BASC, wildly erratic achievement tests (MAPS, etc.), the IQ profile, her profile on the GORT (an oral reading test in which she was in the 4th quartile for everything except reading speed; she was in the 1st quartile for speed), and a psych meeting w/ dd and me and talking about what she was experiencing. It sounds like your ds had enough rating scales and tests done to get a reasonable dx.

I don't know that having the dx has been a magic bullet, though either in terms of fixing the problem or getting the school to better see that there is a problem.

Re whether your ds falls into the gifted category, I'd say yes. He appears more moderately gifted (MG) than highly or profoundly gifted, but he may be more gifted than the IQ scores look at first glance. Did he have a lot of scatter within subtests? For instance, my oldest, who like I mentioned didn't test well for reasons other than 2e, appears fairly MG when looking @ her composite #s, but even in indeces where her composite #s were high-ish but not outstandingly so, she had some HG+ scores. PRI, for instance, came out around the 95th percentile if I recall correctly & had an 8 (25th percentile) and a 19+ (99.9th percentile).

Kids with wild scatter like that may be more highly gifted than the composite #s, which average the highs with the lows, would indicate. Also, if he does have ADD, which sounds like a distinct possibility based on what you've posted, his scores on many parts of the WISC may be affected by his concentration and lowered accordingly.

That score profile certainly suggests some kind of disability. My son has a somewhat similar profile: his scores are here.

FWIW, in addition to giftedness, he has motor dyspraxia, problems with visual processing and visual-motor integration, Asperger's Syndrome/NVLD, sensory processing issues, and a formally diagnosed Disorder of Written Expression. He does not have ADHD. The WISC and most other IQ tests are really blunt instruments with respect to looking at learning disabilities. Significant score scatter can be a "red flag" that something unusual is going on, but it isn't really diagnostic of anything by itself without confirming results from other, more specific, sources of information.

An evaluation with a professional who is familiar with 2E kids, not just LD kids and not just gifted kids,would probably be really be helpful.

Edited to add: on the Conners, my son scores like he has ADHD-inattentive, ADHD-impulsive, and ADHD-mixed. After spending nearly 10 hours with him, watching him work on a variety of tasks, the psych who evaluated him said that in her opinion, the behaviors that caused the positive ratings on the Conners were almost certainly not ADHD, but were related to his giftedness and to his Asperger's. (I agree with this assessment, and so does he.)

The psychogist mentioned in her report that he did exhibit notable scatter on the tasks related to the working memory subtests. She said that he tended to miss some items while getting more difficult items correct. As far as the subtests go, I'm not sure what kind of discrepancy qualifies as scatter.

For VCI he had scores of 16, 17, 13

For PRI he had scores of 11, 17, 12

PS: 6, 9

WM: 12, 12

She was going to do the GORT but decided not to in the end. I do know from fluency benchmarks that he is slow but his state test results (taken under normal time constrictions) show that he is well above average in reading.

He did make a comment to the psych (when they had to use a large room with a window rather than the usual small room that they used without a window) that "we should go back to our normal room because I notice things, much more than other people, so much that its a problem sometimes". So he is pretty aware of his attention difficulties and can identify an environment that would cause him trouble.

dmack, I'm not a testing expert, but from what I understand scatter > 1 SD is potentially significant - but I've heard that mostly re VCI vs PRI vs PS vs WM, not within the subtests. Our ds has scatter > 1 SD on his subtests, and our neuropsych discounted taking away anything significant from that... otoh... we were not using a neuropsych that specializes in 2e kids. She *did* emphasize the significance of the VCI/PRI vs PS scatter, which was greater than 2 SDs for our ds. Our ds has also been through WISC testing twice (2nd and 5th grade), had discrepancies in VCI vs PRI both times.. but in opposite directions both times - go figure!

I think from the scores you've posted that WM is likely not an issue for your ds, but processing speed potentially is.

Re missing some items and getting more difficult items correct, and your ds noting that he "notices" things around the room, I'd wonder if perhaps the low scores in processing speed might be related to a vision challenge. If he'd been through a neuropsych eval, one of the tests they would have followed up with would be a test of visual-motor integration. Our dd9 had a significant dip in processing speed that was greater than 2 SD - and she had a lot of difficulty with the motor integration test. Our neuropsych referred her to a behavioral optometrist who found that she had severe double vision which was causing one eye to shut down most of the time, and she also had severe tracking problems. She went through vision therapy for a little over a year, and although she hasn't had her IQ retested, I'm certain that her processing score would now be back up in line with her other subtest scores, based on the type of work she did in VT and the massive improvements we saw.

Another thought re noticing things other people don't notice - my ds has an expressive language disorder combined with dysgraphia which made it extremely difficult to write (output), especially up through 4th grade, and the school wasn't helping him much at all - so there were a lot of times when the class would be working on a writing assignment and he'd be just sitting there, not having a clue what to do. While he sat there, he says he'd notice things and his mind would start to fixate on them, things like another kid's notebook, something on the teacher's desk etc. It wasn't an attention challenge, it was a kid sitting in a classroom who couldn't do what he was supposed to be doing. A similar thing happened with him during class discussions because the pace of the class was just too slow for his brain... sooo... just fwiw... he had a few teachers convinced he had inattentive ADHD when really he had an entirely different challenge. That's where neuropsych testing really *really* helped us understand what was going on.

polarbear

My expertise only goes so far here. Hopefully someone who knows more will chime in. Likewise, I've generally heard about scatter btwn tests making the overall score unreliable; however I have had a few experts tell me that scatter w/in subtests also creates unreliability. Both of my girls had scatter of more than 4 SD within subtests if I'm recalling correctly. One of them again was most likely related to a combo of anxiety and just being meticulous and slower in processing but not really a treatable problem.

I generally figure that the kids for whom it is pretty clear what is going on, like my oldest, are either not gifted and just have the other "e" or aren't 2e at all. 2e ones are really hard to sort out b/c they compensate for those other "e"s so much with their strengths that it isn't so clear what is wrong.

In my layman's opinion, I'd say that your ds' PRI subtest is the one where the scatter looks the most suspicious. If I had to guess, I'd say that the block design is the one where he got an 11. That was my dd13's "8" score. Kids who are truly slower in processing speed, totally stressed by timed tests, or who have some other issue related to speed will often do poorly on block design b/c it is the only other timed test outside of the PSI index.

You could be on to a few things here. My son was also diagnosed with slight nearsightedness and astigmatism. The astigmatism is strange though because the the curvature appears on both sides of the plane so it cancels itself out and he can basically see fine. It doesn't cause the blurriness that the normal type of astigmatism causes and as a result usually doesn't get caught in a normal eye exam. However, I felt last year that he had a tracking problem. He had a hard time copying off of the board (filling in his agenda). I also noticed that at home when she gave an assignment (done weekly) where they had to copy by hand a few sentences from a paragraph that was typed on the top of the paper to lines on the bottom of the paper he really labored over it. When the teacher complained that he took a long time to fill out his agenda last year I suggested that he might have a tracking problem and she insisted that it was attentional rather than difficulties with the task. I will follow through on getting at least a behavioral optomotrist.

Also, last year and the beginning of this year he had trouble with sitting there during writing assignments waiting for help. And, finding certain lessons so incredibly boring that he couldn't pay attention (when the class was struggling with things he already knew). I wonder if his recent improvement is due to the teacher correcting these two things. His current teacher was the "enrichment" teacher. It was similar to a gifted program but the kids who were placed in it weren't necessarily gifted. They rarely used IQ tests unless the parents already had them done so the kids who were chosen were kids who were good at doing classwork. So....not a 2e child. But as a result, he is experienced in giving challenges to kids that need it however in the beginning he had very little patience for my son's struggles especially since he could see he was bright and otherwise capable.

One of the other issues that I feel is partly responsible is that with the NCLB law our local districts have all but cut out Science and Social Studies. At most they have a 1/2 hour per day to spend on EITHER Science or Social Studies. Some days they don't even get to it. My son is incredibly interested in Science and Social Studies intrigues him. Reading and Math on the other hand he could take or leave. He likes math that he can do in his head...he was so excited to prove to me that he could do long division in his head but math that has multiple steps and needs to be worked out on paper (like certain problem solving problems) he doesn't like. So that is another problem. They spend ALL day on subjects that he is not passionate about and rarely get to the subjects he IS passionate about.

That was one of the things that the psychologist said to me. He compensates so well because of his strengths that it is hard for teachers to understand the weaknesses that he has.

And you are correct...block design is the subtest that he got the 11 on. That is pretty impressive!

I'm going to have to think some more about this. The processing piece seems to be a problem...I didnt realize that block design is the only timed portion of that test. I truly can't pay for a neuropsych eval right now...we are down to one income for the moment. But in the future I may go that route. The psychologist that evaluated him is supposed to come back in 5th or 6th (I cant remember now) and re-evaluate him but she thinks he will have topped out the test at that point.

This discussion is really helpful to me! I haven't found anyone in my district that is going through a similar problem.

This is my dd11's situation too. She is my 2e one. The GT programs are full of high achievers but most of the kids in them are not gifted, IMHO. Almost no one has IQ scores so they rely on teacher recommendations, parent recommendations, achievement scores, and sometimes CogAT scores that are high but not necessarily gifted. Dd11 really doesn't fit in with this group and her learning needs are quite different.

Her middle school, too, has cut back science and history for 6th graders. They both used to be all year courses. Now you get one in the first semester and the other in the 2nd. Her English class is all about sentence diagramming, punctuation, and other detail things that are weaknesses of hers. While I think that the way GT programs identify and serve kids is a disservice for gifted kids in general, I think that it is a bigger problem for 2e kids.

My son has almost the same exact score profile. Other than PS and WM, where my son is about fiftieth percentile on both, but the GAI comes out to the same as your son.

I am wondering how or why this school psych diagnosed him with ADHD just from this hour or two she spent with him? I was under the impression that ADHD is based on observations from parents and teachers.

As far as the discrepancy between the scores, that is common now in the WISC IV for gifted kids. The way I understand it, the way they weight the subsections can cause big differences for gifted kids, but not for normal IQ kids. That's why they had to come up with the GAI to assess core ability.

The second grade teacher suggesting retaining him is bananas, I'm glad to hear you said No to that. Oy.

Anyway, I think we have the same child lol and I will share where I am with this whole thing. Barring homeschooling [or a very special school that doesn't exist for us], school is what it is. All I can do is advocate for him, but the reality is he is going to have to learn to speed it up a bit, stay on task, all of that. The good part is that we still have some years of maturity ahead of us before high school and I have already seen many behaviors fall into place since, let's say first grade, which was a nightmare.

From the teacher's point of view, they have a job to do, which is teach twenty plus kids a whole list of things. I am learning to have sympathy for them and acknowledging to myself that my kid totally annoys the heck out of them. Lucky for him and them, he is bright enough that he still gets all of his tests almost perfect, even though he is barely paying attention most days.

Diagnoses I have looked into and had evals for are ADD-inattentive, dyspraxia, sluggish cognitive tempo. But none of these quite fit.

Let's see what else, I've read up on that Edison trait theory, the dreamer theory, the problem with boys in school. Also introversion. Which is all interesting to read, but nothing has really clicked as far as solutions.

I've come to conclusion my son is just having a great old time in his brain imagining things and the nonstop worksheets that he can figure out in one minute just aren't doing it for him. I've also come to the conclusion that the curriculum is boring and repetitive. Other bright kids might just play along more, but he is not.

Our psych who did our testing put it a great way. One day something will catch this kid's fancy and he will be off to the races. For now, with our current situation barring a switch to homeschooling, he needs to learn to be able to sit through class, do what they say, and plod along. But that needs to be balanced also so we don't totally crush his spirit, and that is where we come in as parents. I've looked into weekend and summer programs, so I'm going to do some enrichment there for now.

Anyway, I hope you get some answers soon and do come and share what you find out. Good luck, you're not alone : )