Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional New Here with a Question about 2E

The psychogist mentioned in her report that he did exhibit notable scatter on the tasks related to the working memory subtests. She said that he tended to miss some items while getting more difficult items correct. As far as the subtests go, I'm not sure what kind of discrepancy qualifies as scatter.

For VCI he had scores of 16, 17, 13

For PRI he had scores of 11, 17, 12

PS: 6, 9

WM: 12, 12

She was going to do the GORT but decided not to in the end. I do know from fluency benchmarks that he is slow but his state test results (taken under normal time constrictions) show that he is well above average in reading.

He did make a comment to the psych (when they had to use a large room with a window rather than the usual small room that they used without a window) that "we should go back to our normal room because I notice things, much more than other people, so much that its a problem sometimes". So he is pretty aware of his attention difficulties and can identify an environment that would cause him trouble.

dmack, I'm not a testing expert, but from what I understand scatter > 1 SD is potentially significant - but I've heard that mostly re VCI vs PRI vs PS vs WM, not within the subtests. Our ds has scatter > 1 SD on his subtests, and our neuropsych discounted taking away anything significant from that... otoh... we were not using a neuropsych that specializes in 2e kids. She *did* emphasize the significance of the VCI/PRI vs PS scatter, which was greater than 2 SDs for our ds. Our ds has also been through WISC testing twice (2nd and 5th grade), had discrepancies in VCI vs PRI both times.. but in opposite directions both times - go figure!

I think from the scores you've posted that WM is likely not an issue for your ds, but processing speed potentially is.

Re missing some items and getting more difficult items correct, and your ds noting that he "notices" things around the room, I'd wonder if perhaps the low scores in processing speed might be related to a vision challenge. If he'd been through a neuropsych eval, one of the tests they would have followed up with would be a test of visual-motor integration. Our dd9 had a significant dip in processing speed that was greater than 2 SD - and she had a lot of difficulty with the motor integration test. Our neuropsych referred her to a behavioral optometrist who found that she had severe double vision which was causing one eye to shut down most of the time, and she also had severe tracking problems. She went through vision therapy for a little over a year, and although she hasn't had her IQ retested, I'm certain that her processing score would now be back up in line with her other subtest scores, based on the type of work she did in VT and the massive improvements we saw.

Another thought re noticing things other people don't notice - my ds has an expressive language disorder combined with dysgraphia which made it extremely difficult to write (output), especially up through 4th grade, and the school wasn't helping him much at all - so there were a lot of times when the class would be working on a writing assignment and he'd be just sitting there, not having a clue what to do. While he sat there, he says he'd notice things and his mind would start to fixate on them, things like another kid's notebook, something on the teacher's desk etc. It wasn't an attention challenge, it was a kid sitting in a classroom who couldn't do what he was supposed to be doing. A similar thing happened with him during class discussions because the pace of the class was just too slow for his brain... sooo... just fwiw... he had a few teachers convinced he had inattentive ADHD when really he had an entirely different challenge. That's where neuropsych testing really *really* helped us understand what was going on.

polarbear

My expertise only goes so far here. Hopefully someone who knows more will chime in. Likewise, I've generally heard about scatter btwn tests making the overall score unreliable; however I have had a few experts tell me that scatter w/in subtests also creates unreliability. Both of my girls had scatter of more than 4 SD within subtests if I'm recalling correctly. One of them again was most likely related to a combo of anxiety and just being meticulous and slower in processing but not really a treatable problem.

I generally figure that the kids for whom it is pretty clear what is going on, like my oldest, are either not gifted and just have the other "e" or aren't 2e at all. 2e ones are really hard to sort out b/c they compensate for those other "e"s so much with their strengths that it isn't so clear what is wrong.

In my layman's opinion, I'd say that your ds' PRI subtest is the one where the scatter looks the most suspicious. If I had to guess, I'd say that the block design is the one where he got an 11. That was my dd13's "8" score. Kids who are truly slower in processing speed, totally stressed by timed tests, or who have some other issue related to speed will often do poorly on block design b/c it is the only other timed test outside of the PSI index.

You could be on to a few things here. My son was also diagnosed with slight nearsightedness and astigmatism. The astigmatism is strange though because the the curvature appears on both sides of the plane so it cancels itself out and he can basically see fine. It doesn't cause the blurriness that the normal type of astigmatism causes and as a result usually doesn't get caught in a normal eye exam. However, I felt last year that he had a tracking problem. He had a hard time copying off of the board (filling in his agenda). I also noticed that at home when she gave an assignment (done weekly) where they had to copy by hand a few sentences from a paragraph that was typed on the top of the paper to lines on the bottom of the paper he really labored over it. When the teacher complained that he took a long time to fill out his agenda last year I suggested that he might have a tracking problem and she insisted that it was attentional rather than difficulties with the task. I will follow through on getting at least a behavioral optomotrist.

Also, last year and the beginning of this year he had trouble with sitting there during writing assignments waiting for help. And, finding certain lessons so incredibly boring that he couldn't pay attention (when the class was struggling with things he already knew). I wonder if his recent improvement is due to the teacher correcting these two things. His current teacher was the "enrichment" teacher. It was similar to a gifted program but the kids who were placed in it weren't necessarily gifted. They rarely used IQ tests unless the parents already had them done so the kids who were chosen were kids who were good at doing classwork. So....not a 2e child. But as a result, he is experienced in giving challenges to kids that need it however in the beginning he had very little patience for my son's struggles especially since he could see he was bright and otherwise capable.

One of the other issues that I feel is partly responsible is that with the NCLB law our local districts have all but cut out Science and Social Studies. At most they have a 1/2 hour per day to spend on EITHER Science or Social Studies. Some days they don't even get to it. My son is incredibly interested in Science and Social Studies intrigues him. Reading and Math on the other hand he could take or leave. He likes math that he can do in his head...he was so excited to prove to me that he could do long division in his head but math that has multiple steps and needs to be worked out on paper (like certain problem solving problems) he doesn't like. So that is another problem. They spend ALL day on subjects that he is not passionate about and rarely get to the subjects he IS passionate about.

That was one of the things that the psychologist said to me. He compensates so well because of his strengths that it is hard for teachers to understand the weaknesses that he has.

And you are correct...block design is the subtest that he got the 11 on. That is pretty impressive!

I'm going to have to think some more about this. The processing piece seems to be a problem...I didnt realize that block design is the only timed portion of that test. I truly can't pay for a neuropsych eval right now...we are down to one income for the moment. But in the future I may go that route. The psychologist that evaluated him is supposed to come back in 5th or 6th (I cant remember now) and re-evaluate him but she thinks he will have topped out the test at that point.

This discussion is really helpful to me! I haven't found anyone in my district that is going through a similar problem.

This is my dd11's situation too. She is my 2e one. The GT programs are full of high achievers but most of the kids in them are not gifted, IMHO. Almost no one has IQ scores so they rely on teacher recommendations, parent recommendations, achievement scores, and sometimes CogAT scores that are high but not necessarily gifted. Dd11 really doesn't fit in with this group and her learning needs are quite different.

Her middle school, too, has cut back science and history for 6th graders. They both used to be all year courses. Now you get one in the first semester and the other in the 2nd. Her English class is all about sentence diagramming, punctuation, and other detail things that are weaknesses of hers. While I think that the way GT programs identify and serve kids is a disservice for gifted kids in general, I think that it is a bigger problem for 2e kids.

My son has almost the same exact score profile. Other than PS and WM, where my son is about fiftieth percentile on both, but the GAI comes out to the same as your son.

I am wondering how or why this school psych diagnosed him with ADHD just from this hour or two she spent with him? I was under the impression that ADHD is based on observations from parents and teachers.

As far as the discrepancy between the scores, that is common now in the WISC IV for gifted kids. The way I understand it, the way they weight the subsections can cause big differences for gifted kids, but not for normal IQ kids. That's why they had to come up with the GAI to assess core ability.

The second grade teacher suggesting retaining him is bananas, I'm glad to hear you said No to that. Oy.

Anyway, I think we have the same child lol and I will share where I am with this whole thing. Barring homeschooling [or a very special school that doesn't exist for us], school is what it is. All I can do is advocate for him, but the reality is he is going to have to learn to speed it up a bit, stay on task, all of that. The good part is that we still have some years of maturity ahead of us before high school and I have already seen many behaviors fall into place since, let's say first grade, which was a nightmare.

From the teacher's point of view, they have a job to do, which is teach twenty plus kids a whole list of things. I am learning to have sympathy for them and acknowledging to myself that my kid totally annoys the heck out of them. Lucky for him and them, he is bright enough that he still gets all of his tests almost perfect, even though he is barely paying attention most days.

Diagnoses I have looked into and had evals for are ADD-inattentive, dyspraxia, sluggish cognitive tempo. But none of these quite fit.

Let's see what else, I've read up on that Edison trait theory, the dreamer theory, the problem with boys in school. Also introversion. Which is all interesting to read, but nothing has really clicked as far as solutions.

I've come to conclusion my son is just having a great old time in his brain imagining things and the nonstop worksheets that he can figure out in one minute just aren't doing it for him. I've also come to the conclusion that the curriculum is boring and repetitive. Other bright kids might just play along more, but he is not.

Our psych who did our testing put it a great way. One day something will catch this kid's fancy and he will be off to the races. For now, with our current situation barring a switch to homeschooling, he needs to learn to be able to sit through class, do what they say, and plod along. But that needs to be balanced also so we don't totally crush his spirit, and that is where we come in as parents. I've looked into weekend and summer programs, so I'm going to do some enrichment there for now.

Anyway, I hope you get some answers soon and do come and share what you find out. Good luck, you're not alone : )