Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy A vent and a sanity check...

I had a chat to dd's teacher this morning about her maths. Dd is 5 and skipped in to grade 1. We're near the end of our school year here.

DD has been complaining that she is finding maths boring. She does grade 4 maths books (teacher reference ones, not the ones from the supermarket) and grade 4 Mathletics at home for fun and with no instruction from us - getting at least 90% correct. I had organised to chat to her teacher about her maths today and had indicated that I wanted to speak about the possibility of her giving dd harder work. I took dd's work in to the meeting as an indication of what she is doing. I got there only to discover the teacher had recruited one of the vice principals to come along too, whose first words were "the teacher has told me about all your worries". Which seemed surprising because I hadn't actually raised any to that point... She turned out to be one of the most patronizing people I've ever met - one of those people who speak to you very calmly, like they're soothing a young, slightly dim child. Could have throttled her... fortunately I didn't!

I described what dd was doing in Mathletics (which the school uses) and showed them the maths books. They completely dismissed dd's work saying that because the books give explicit instructions on what to do (i.e. "Find the area of each of the following in cm2" etc), this doesn't count. They said in class she simply follows the instruction given and no more, where as some other children are expanding on what is asked.

DD is a kid who wants to do the right thing and she will follow instructions to the letter. The example they gave me was a word puzzle that said to come up with a way to do X. Because she had come up with one way to do X, not multiple ways they felt this was an indication that she was not ready for more challenging work. From my perspective, dd had done exactly what she was asked. They also said she works very slowly, which they felt was another indication of her lesser ability. In reality I think this is a two pronged issue - she works slowly because she is, well, 5 and most of the other kids are 7 which a couple of extra years of motor skill development, and also she's not a fast processor. I'm not sure how many times I can have the faster isn't better conversation...sigh...

This all came to a head because they have been doing division by equally sharing items between pieces of paper - dd is going mad with boredom.

I said to the teacher that unless it was clear to dd that they wanted her to expand on an instruction she was unlikely to do it. So the teacher has at least agreed to try this, but nothing more.

I guess ultimately I am having gifted doubt. DD's tester, who is very experienced with gifted kids, said explicitly and repeatedly in her report that dd will need advanced instruction in maths right from the get go. Dd's non-verbal scores were at the ceiling of the SBV, her NV fluid reasoning went beyond the measure of the test. Her first teacher this year put her straight in to grade 2 maths which she enjoyed and was doing fine in, but we discovered very late that the teacher who took over mid year (the current teacher) put her in a middling grade one maths grouping. Because she is slow with computation, no one seems to believe us that she is capable of more and it is driving me nuts. But then maybe the tester was wrong. Maybe what we see at home is not unusual?

I don't pretend for a minute that being able to do work from a book and online is the same as being able to maths in a range of contexts and I don't mean that I think she is ready for a grade 4 maths class, but I feel in my gut she is capable of more than they're asking. Am I though just being a proud mum? Has any one else experienced this?

Thanks - sorry it was long.

Don't have gifted doubt. If you have a 5 year-old in first grade, who is doing any kind of 4th grade math, I'd say your kid is darn well highly gifted.

My (supposedly) HG DD5 in kindergarten still counts on her fingers to get 10+3.

HG/PG DS7 is struggling with 4th grade math now. But he'd slit his throat, I think, if they made him go back to 1st grade math. Better to struggle a little and learn something new than to have to sit through something you already know again and again.

Might you show the teacher a copy of the IQ report and discuss the processing section, and the fact that she IS only 5? Also, maybe they need to tell your DD to find two or three different ways to get from point A to point B if that's what they want. As you said, a 5 year-old might not take that initiative on her own. And temperment plays a role there too.

Good luck!

�
I have struggled, initially, with this idea. �I just wondered where my son's natural zone of proximal development is �if I'm googling early education ideas to stay one step ahead of his zpd so I can be a guide. � �I'll probably cut and paste the links later but you've probably read all the same articles I have- Summary:
>>gifted kids need teachers, parents, and coaches too. << . To me that means, well, let me quote a Well Trained Mind siggy., "The ability to learn on one�s own is normally the result of a good education, not the cause of it."
~Classical Education & the Homeschool

So well done for following the directions well, that's how most children usually learn. �So, this post is probably validating but not practical as far as how to get your kids and the school system to adapt to meet each other's needs. Sorry the year did a bait n switch with a good-fit teacher to start off the year with.

I may be totally off here, so take it for what it's worth, but when I read your post it triggered a memory of something the gifted screening team said regarding my son. One of the reasons they didn't want to recommend testing is because he did not show initiative to extrapolate upon the problems given to him during the screening session. They informed me that one of the traits of giftedness is "expanding upon problems, showing creativity in moving beyond what was presented".

I named off numerous examples of his creativity and initiative to extrapolate on things that inspired him, but he was what I described as a "effort efficient worker".

They eventually capitulated and tested him, and he was high gifted in all three exceptionalities. His unwillingness to expand beyond the assignments for which he sees no purpose beyond busywork is still a part of his learning style, but I don't much care now. He's not a performing monkey there to impress the teachers; he's in school to gain skills and knowledge for his own future.

Perhaps the teacher is under the misguided idea that every gifted kid always goes beyond the assignment on the page every time they have an assignment.

Just a thought. I might be totally off, but I did find many of the teachers who were not actually trained in teaching gifted kids had some very limited, often biased ideas of what "all" gifted kids should be like.

We've had this same experience in our schools - even among the teachers who are specifically trained in teaching gifted kids.

We had a difficult time in elementary school getting our 2e ds placed at an appropriately challenging level in math. He has dysgraphia + a relatively slow processing speed but is clearly extremely gifted when it comes to picking up on math concepts and he loves math. What we did was to advocate as much as we could for appropriate work at school (which never worked) but at the same time we let ds do supplementary math work at home (which he was happy with because he loves math). We chose an online program that was aligned with state standards and included assessments and reports which showed exactly what our ds had mastered (and was also a program that had been evaluated by our school district and was found by the schools to be credible). Although it took us until middle school, once we got there, to that new school/new situation/new set of teachers, we were able to show "proof" of our ds' ability through the assessments and reports we had from his work outside of school, combined with his ability (IQ) test report, to successfully advocate for him to be placed at the level he was truly capable of working at.

Soooo... I hope you're successful much sooner than we were! The thing to do is just keep advocating, keep good records, examples of your child's work, testing etc. Don't give up. Some of the teachers you'll run into will be clueless and nothing you can ever say will change their mind. Some of the gifted programs out there aren't going to be all that great either - ultimately we found the gifted program in our district is more of a program for MG kids, not HG/PG kids.

It sounds like you are close to the end of your school year - try to stay encouraged - even if you don't get things worked out satisfactorily right now, next year will be a new year with a new teacher and hopefully the school staff will be more willing to listen and support your dd's needs.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - the whole concept of "show your work in multiple ways" in early math was just sooooo non-motivating for my kids (and would have been for me too, and I have a degree in math!). DS in particular thought it was ridiculous, why should he have to do it? My MG dd even thinks it's silly. I have to stop typing now or I'll proceed into a full-on rant about our school district's elementary math curriculum! Anyway, fwiw, once my ds go to pre-algebra and higher math courses, he was so much happier - that's where gifted kids who are strong at math concepts really start to soar.

I have a math degree, too.

There are so many kinds of math. Most of what is taught until Algebra is just arithmetic. Geometry, if taught using proofs, is the first REAL math class. It is shame kids have to wait until 8th grade to get to it when many are clearly ready for "proofs lite" by the 3rd grade.

What the GT kids get excited about is number THEORY and algebraic theory - things THEIR minds can sense but which ALL elementary teachers are totally ignorant of. If a kid can grasp series, summations, and then limits, then they are ready for Calculus as well.

Kids can be slow computationalists, BUT they get the THEORY and get it spades.

So, the teachers saying show your work, or picking on hash marks, are really forcing compliance because there IS NOTHING ELSE THEY HAVE TO OFFER.

--


IMHO, Logic, Euclidian Geometry, a good abstract algebra and another in analysis should be taught to GT kids FIRST with hints to the clerical parts, then double back for the clerical aspects in each - i.e traditional algebra, analytical geometry, linear algebra, and then calculus. You could combine algebra/analysis in one course and linear/calculus in another. The latter courses would reinforce theory and also introduce areas where ideas break down. Essentially the student would get the first three years of a BS in math completed.

So,

Sem 1 - Logic
Sem 2 - Proofs
Sem 3 - Geometry & Abstract Algebra
Sem 4 - Analysis 1
Sem 5 - Analysis 2 and AA 2
Sem 6 - Traditional Algebra I/Geometric Analysis
Sem 7 - Calculus I /Linear Algebra
Sem 8 - Calc II/III
Sems 9-12 - Electives + physics/chem

I think this hits on a really key issue (at least in our school district, gifted and regular classroom ed) - a large part of the problem imo with our math program here is that the teachers who are choosing the curriculum and who are implementing it at the elementary level are not math-brain-type folks. My ds' 2nd grade teacher was instrumental in selecting his elementary school's math curriculum. She's a talented Language Arts teacher, no question about it. But she was so clueless about math - she freely admitted to parents at one of our meetings that she didn't really "grasp the concept of a fraction" until she was 25. Yikes!

When kids get to algebra and beyond in our district, they are finally taught by teachers who actually (often) have degrees in math or science, who understand math and who are good at it and enjoy it. I think in many ways that makes up for as much of the difference in how kids feel about math as the type of math they are being taught.

polarbear

This is what I saw with my son this summer at the Epsilon math camp. The 8 to 10 year old kids did proofs and really understood them! I remember proofs in geometry and I just memorized them. But I didn't get a chance to "fall in love" with math because I didn't get to even be exposed to the real math you are talking about until 9th grade or so. I'm so happy for son getting to see some of it now...even though his school curriculum doesn't provide it, I learned what he needs so I provide it outside school as well as I can.

Just wanted to say I agree with all above. I also wonder exactly how many ways a kid is expected to explain why 2+2 =4 and other basic concepts. I had a couple of conferences the first year we accelerated in math where I remember saying things like,

"So you're telling me my kids doesn't know how to play with blocks the right way and you think that will take a whole year?"

or

"You expect a paragraph of explanation on why you decided to add 3 numbers to solve a simple story problem?"

My favorite was when they told me that my kid needed to not accelerate because they don't learn thousands until third grade....

This year we are doing middle school math, the curriculum makes sense now. So it will get better FWIW.....

I have so many of these quotes that you just never forget because they are so absurd!

FWIW, I'll throw one out there that has nothing to do with curriculum or giftedness - one of my dd's has life-threatening food allergies. We were having a meeting with the school nurse and vice principal prior to the start of 1st grade to discuss classroom concerns (the teacher wanted to cook inside the classroom and our dd has had anaphylactic reactions to airborne wheat/corn). The school VP was notorious for not wanting to make any accommodations of any kind for our dd, and when we brought up the issue with airborne wheat/corn, she told us (this is a direct quote) that "We can't do anything unless your child has actually has experienced an anaphylactic reaction in the classroom." So we pointed out that people with allergies are told specifically to avoid triggers for anaphylactic reactions in order to avoid the high risk of *death* from the reactions... to which the VP replied (with a smile on her face), "Well, if she has an anaphylactic reaction in the classroom and dies, then we could give her a 504 with an accommodation."

Sorry to wander off-topic!

polarbear

@polarbear - wow. I might have hauled off an popped that VP in the mouth for that.

Not only is that sickening, but it's also lawsuit-bait.

I hope your DC is well taken care of now...
DeeDee

A doctor's not with allergy test results wouldn't have sufficed? Unbelievable.

Thanks all for your replies. There is some food for thought in there re what school/teachers are actually capable of expecting/producing.

Polarbear, your story is just shocking. I have no words!

Giftodd, wow. I fail to see how following directions well should count against your child? That is just silly. No matter how clear the instructions are, if she can't comprehend the concept she would not be able to follow the directions correctly!

It reminds me of a college exam I took once in which one of the questions was yes or no. So that is what I answered. But apparently the teacher expected an explanation as well, but did NOT ask for it on the exam. Of course I could have explained, but I didn't. The teacher noted that she had been looking for an explanation, but still had to mark the question correct since she hadn't actually asked for one!

And polarbear, I sincerely hope you reported that VP to the principal and the superintendent. The level of callousness in that comment is truly shocking.

Two routes I would consider for the "504 for death" comment. One is to find a disability rights advocate:

http://www.ndrn.org/

The other is to consider a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights.

How long did it take you to stop hitting him, and how many people did it take to get you off him?

I am amused b/c DH (mathematician) said the same thing about geometry and teaching of "math" this morning -- because I complained about an innumerate phone-in show host.

He made another comment I found interesting; he doesn't think there have ever been a sufficient number of qualified teachers of mathematical reasoning/logic to meet the needs of the next generation. He's going back the length of history with that, I think he considers it to be a fundamental problem of the species. It was strong wording, and philosophically interesting to this non-math brain

-Mich

Totally off topic in some ways, but my favorite story about stupid assessment/criteria is from when my son was assessed in math during the first week of 1st grade. In our parent/teacher conference, the teacher said he had failed a part of the math assessment. Needless to say we were shocked. She showed us the test and there was a section where the child was suppose to show the number 9 in 5 different ways. What they wanted was hash marks, domino, etc. My DS wrote things like 4 + 5, 20-11, 3 x 3, 3 squared, etc. The teacher said she could only give him credit for the addition one, because the others were not on the "list" of right answers!

To her credit, she was just following the rules and knew the result was phooey. She looked at what he did, joked that she was surprised he hadn't put down the square root of 81, and proceeded to try hard to differentiate for him. But you could see how another teacher might not have taken such an enlightened approach.