Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy MAPs & Lexiles & Parent Conferences...OH MY!

You know, like lions & tigers & bears!

Sooooo...DD6's parent-teacher conference was today. She's in first grade, I am happy with her teacher and thought she had a good understanding of our daughter, for the most part. At the VERY end she gave us her MAP test scores and shoved us out the door -- did. not. even. review. them. (Is this unusual??) She's in first grade, and teacher said she was reading at a 3rd grade level (which sounded low to me but I decided to go with it).

Get home and the Math RIT is 198 which is a 99% and Reading RIT is 221 which is a 99%, only thing is from the chart a 221 is 99% for early second grade, a 98% for early third grade and a 93% for early fourth grade. Plus, her lexile is 884-1034, and I do not know how accurate this is but I guess that is about 9th-10th grade?? Is that correct?? I am wondering if this sounds like a 3rd grade reader to you?

And no, we've not had her IQ test (yet) waiting to hear from the gifted teacher on that. But, would you think this indicates subject acceleration? Can you use MAP scores to advocate for that? I don't know what to think anymore. But with scores sort of "off the charts" is it odd she handed us the sheet and said BUH-BYE!?

Help! What next!?

You can absolutely use these scores to advocate that your child be given reading instruction with other children who have similar scores...which would likely be either with other gifted children her age or with older students.

http://lp.jcsd.net/curic/inttechnology_files/page0003.htm

ETA: A RIT of 221 is about average for a 7th-8th grader according to the 2008 norms. The new norms might be different with this. The Lexile range that you gave includes Charlotte's Web, the Hobbit, and Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone.

So I am curious how to approach this -- she said she's in a reading group with two other kids and they are reading at a 3rd grade level. She's pretty confident in this! Do I say these score indicate otherwise? I mean the books they are reading are in the 400-500 lexile level, as far as I can tell? Hmmmm.....

Oh wow -- thanks for that chart. I wonder if there is a place I can find an updated one online I could refer to for the teacher? This was her beginning of the school year scores (that we are just not getting) so that does look right about 8th grade. Super helpful -- what to do!?!?!

Found it on the NWEA site! This is SO HELPFUL. It has 221 as beginning of year 9th grade, and her math at mid-year 3rd grade. In case anyone else is looking the PDF can be downloaded here: http://www.nwea.org/support/article/normative-data-2011 and it is 2011.

Hmmmm....now what, back to teacher? Move on to principal, or try for the gifted teacher? Ack!

You'll probably also want to look at the full norms report:
http://www.nwea.org/sites/www.nwea.org/files/resources/NWEA_2011_RIT_Scale_Norms.pdf

The Lexile scores are harder to get exact percentiles on, but her range puts her smack dab on the proficient range for a 6th grader.

The best percentile/norms chart for lexiles that I've been able to find is way down on the bottom of this link from Scholastic: http://teacher.scholastic.com/products/sri_reading_assessment/pdfs/SRI_TechGuide.pdf

I believe that it is on page 81. It is reasonable to take her lexile range and look right at the middle of it and find the percentile off of that. Scholastic doesn't break it down beyond clusters of 5 percentiles (i.e. - 90th percentile, 95th, etc. but not 90th, 91st, 92nd, etc.) and they don't list scores above the 95th.

The middle of her lexile range is around 955-960 which would be around the 90th percentile for a fall 4th grader and around the 70th percentile for a fall 6th grader. I wouldn't argue that the teacher should consider her reading at a 9th or 10th grade level based solely on the lexile even though the upper end of it is around the 50th percentile for a 9th grader. The teacher might think that you are stretching it too much.

Honestly, my one kid whose scores looked like that in 1st got to the point where it would be easy to argue that was where her reading was by the end of 1st, though, and I'd suspect that your dd's scores will be harder to argue as nothing way far out of the norm in short order as well.

BTW, just to mention longer term. My kiddo who I mentioned at the end with similar scores around that same age wound up subject accelerating, doing GT pull outs, and finally skipping 5th grade. She's also subject accelerating post-skip in science.

There may be two other kids with whom the teacher can group your dd for reading right now, but the likelihood is that she will continue to pull away from the group unless they, too, are fairly gifted. I'd at least put subject acceleration on the table if her writing is fairly strong as well. We found the one year that dd did subject acceleration to be one of the better academic fits even moreso than GT pull outs. The grade skip was an even better choice later down the line.

Thanks so much Cricket!! This is so helpful! So I was saying 9th based on the RIT from the MAP -- but good to know where the lexile falls as well. 6th grade isn't even at her school -- it is middle school in our district. What KILLS ME is that she didn't even go over these with us -- just casually handed them to us at the end of the conference. UGH! From asking friends and other teachers EVERY SINGLE TEACHER went over these with every single parent. *sigh*

So, I will e-mail or call the principal tomorrow. I will push for subject acceleration for sure.

Let me ask another question -- would a score from MAPs or a Lexile score include comprehension? I can't tell you how many times I hear "Just b/c she can read it doesn't mean she can understand it." Gotchya, but I am not giving her War & Peace -- ya know??? I just want to be able to combat that one if it comes up. As long as the books are "content appropriate" this score indicates she should be able to read and understand the texts that fall into this range, correct?

A MAP reading score at that level would definitely include comprehension.

Ditto what Aculady said. I've heard even really bright GT teachers make comments like that. I'm sure that there are kids who sound out and "read" stuff that they don't comprehend, but that doesn't mean that all kids who are way above grade level on reading aren't comprehending and her MAPs scores definitely support the belief that she is comprehending what she reads.

Some of the std stuff that teachers suggest or believe just doesn't apply to HG kids. For instance, I recall numerous teachers in the early grades for both of my dds saying that you should have kids read books that are a little easy for them to build confidence and not give them books that are too hard -- that they'd progress more quickly if they weren't overwhelmed with too challenging material.

That may be true for most kids but it wasn't with my oldest. We routinely read books that were right at the top of her lexile and sometimes beyond and her reading would always jump when she was stretched like that.

Thanks so much -- I feel awful actually that I haven't supported this level of reading as a mom, let alone that I didn't push for the school to (yet). Honestly, she's always been self-lead and I don't think she'd think to pick out something besides Judy Moody or Magic Treehouse without being offered it, you know? And I just assumed b/c she still enjoyed those books they were still OK. And actually her reading score from the spring -- so end of Kindergarten -- was 198. So she went up 23 points -- is that an unusual jump? Or kind of what gifted kids do? (I am having a hard time even using that term as she hasn't even been IQ tested yet, so I do not really know she's gifted for sure).

Her teacher yesterday kept saying "she's just a kid. and we don't want to push her or give her too much. she needs downtime. and you really have to make sure she is comprehending..." and like I said she said (very confidently!) she was reading at a 3rd grade level.

So, if I ask for subject acceleration, what grade would you recommend being appropriate?? Is it enough to go to second grade for reading?

I think they don't understand that with these kids, it's not usually us pushing them... they push themselves.

For example, DD6 has asked us to take her to the public library, because she wants to explore the adult section. This is a kid who I'm reading Harry Potter to at night, and a couple months ago she tried to read a little on her own, and gave up in frustration. But since then, I've caught her twice reading ahead on her own with comprehension. A couple days ago she'd read ahead a couple pages, and she asked me to pick up where she'd just left off, "Right there at 'Divination.'"

And I think this story just answered your question, Artsmartmom, because that looks like quite a jump in reading ability to me. And this seems to be her operating mode in just about everything. Blink, and you'll miss it.

Dude -- you are so right -- blink and you'll miss it for sure! Plus, she is NOT a discriminating reader at all -- I remember a friend saying her child would say that is a baby book! She really could not care less -- if it has words she'll read it, happily. She's over there reading a busy bumble bee book right now. But, I've got a list from lexile.com and am going to the library today for some more appropriate books.:)

When we first started going to the public library her FAVORITE thing was sitting in the window reading the encyclopedia -- this was like 2 years ago. I don't know what appealed to her, exactly, but it was like it was finally something with enough info for her, ya know!? Ha!

That's a really big jump. Was your DD reading a lot over the summer? It can definitely happen.

One thing to think about when your child's reading level is much higher than her grade level: In addition to reading, all the other subjects will have materials written for kids on grade level. So your DD may need more challenge than just in reading.

I would suggest setting up a meeting to discuss options based on your DD's MAP scores. Ask their advice about what to do to keep your DD challenged so that she is learning new things. There are printouts with the MAP by level, showing what a student at that level would be ready for. (I can't find the link at the moment, but I think inky's posted them.) It would be nice to find out where the other kids scoring at that level are; I would guess GT kids a grade or two up might be similar, otherwise several grades up.

Yes, she is pretty much always reading, but I wouldn't say she was reading on this level -- really just more of the same. But, she's also started quite a bit of creative writing -- like her own stories -- so maybe that can accelerate this score? I have no idea. So I am meeting with the principal on Tue. to discuss the score.

What I keep going back to is how are they going to try to discount this, considering they didn't even address it themselves initially, ya know? I mean, I always kind of waited for the day that people didn't have to "take my word for it" and yet I am still the one asking to meet about off-the-charts scores for their own testing! Does it ever become more self-evident?

In the meantime I asked for gifted (IQ) testing at the beginning of the year and was denied due to not enough data collected -- so she is currently in the midst of a "phase 2 intervention" where she is pulled out for 45 minutes per day with the gifted teacher while they decide if she is suitable for testing. So, they of course do not think MAP scores say anything about giftedness. So for now all I can hope to do is deal with this subject and at least get it straightened out.

Does anyone know if I ask for subject acceleration what grade would be appropriate?? I haven't the foggiest...

Yeah, DD seems just as happy reading her Berenstain Bears collection she's read 1000x over the last three years as she is with her newest chapter book. We recently went through her whole library to reorganize things and make some space, and while I had no problem with her hanging onto the Bears and Doctor Seuss-like material, when she tried to rescue a collection that was literally baby books, I drew a line.

Throughout her progress in reading, it has always seemed like she settles into a comfort zone for a while, then someone encourages her to stretch beyond that zone for just a bit, she proves to herself she can do it, and BOOM! She's off.

At my DS's school at the end of K, they did their reading program's assessment and it has many categories like work decoding, comprehension, vocabulary, etc. and the lowest score he got on that was his reading level. So, for my DS it was 3.9 so they said 3rd grade. His MAP for the end of K was 200. His school ability grouped for reading and he was in the highest group of second graders when he started 1st.

Yes, the summer growth is not typical on the MAP but similar to my DS's math MAP growth for the same time. I would look at the Fall K also to get an idea if your DD is actually growing much in school. I think the typical growth (as NWEA reports it) for a year on the MAP is around 6-7 points.

Finally, I don't really think the teachers understand above average MAP scores as much as we think they should. I think schools mainly use them to develop a cut score for passing the state test and kids who are above the cut score they really don't have to worry about. We tried to have a conversation with my Ds's teacher last year using his MAP to encourage some acceleration and her eyes really just seemed to glaze over. We took the printout that showed where he was for each grade level and and even after explaining it to her, it did not seem to register exactly how high that was.

But based on those MAPs, I think your DD definitely needs some acceleration in both reading and math.

In my experience, you will need to take the lead on the advocacy. Teachers have huge classrooms of kids to worry about, and if a student is doing well, they will be the least likely to get attention. And most teachers will not come across kids who are many grade levels ahead in a subject, and they won't "get" it until the scores on their own tests really sink in. Or if your kiddo does something amazing (which doesn't happen as often as you'd like, when you're trying to convince teachers!)

As for what to ask for in subject acceleration, I would really try to find a teacher who is good at differentiation. The grade level won't matter quite as much. How well/fast does your DD write? That may be a blocking point, depending on how much writing is going on in a particular class. My DS was really bad at handwriting, and he's still behind.

If it turns out that there is not an appropriate class for your DD to accelerate into, there are other options. Can the GT teacher help select materials for in-class differentiation? Can the GT teacher get a group of similar kids together across grades for reading?

I would hope that the MAP scores would be sufficient to qualify for the IQ testing, as the scores show she's several grade levels ahead of her age-mates. Good luck.

Deonne -- They didn't do a fall K MAP so the only two we have are last spring and this fall, unfortunately.

So, she's a strong writer -- good handwriting and very good spelling so that shouldn't be a factor in holding her back. I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop, but who knows maybe they will impress me!

Can you get your hands on the Iowa Acceleration Scales? There is an objective checklist you can use for both subject and full-grade acceleration to see if your child would be a good candidate. We used the form successfully to get a full grade skip for my son.

This discussion has been very enlightening to me, thanks for starting it! It inspired my own thinking about DS8's reading level, which I posted elsewhere on here.

I am envious of those of you who have MAP scores, apparently our school does nothing like this for assessment and I wish they did because it sounds like a very useful tool for advocating for your kid.

It seems to me that perhaps the teacher thinks she was reading on the 3rd grade level because that is the highest level they have offered your dd and she read it well. But they didn't offer her anything higher. It does seem strange that she didn't take the test scores more seriously. I mean, why do the assessment if you are not going to use it to meet the needs of the student?!

LNEsMom -- so glad to hear it! Gosh you'd think it'd be helpful but so far it isn't -- so we'll see!