Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Math acceleration advice needed.... (kind of long)

Hello!

It has been a while because we were frustrated of getting nowhere with the school. But now, we might have a tiny hope and would appreciate any BTDT recommendations and advices:

Quick background: DD7 (2nd grade) and DS6 (kindergarten) both started 6th grade EPGY math program this summer. In the last two years, we have attempted multiple meetings to ask for math acceleration only to be told various reasons that all equaled to "no." Recently, the district has a new GT coordinator who is trying to help us.

Currently, we are asking the school to allow our kids to use ALEKS in place of their regular math curriculum. The reasons are:
1) ALEKS will allow continuity of math education beyond elementary math. More than once we got the "But if your child finished 4th grade math in 2nd grade, what are we going to teach her?"
(2) ALEKS can generate quizzes and homework and track progress and align state mandated requirements. i.e. minimize extra work for the teacher.

However, the district's technology department is concerned about adding something new to the school server and also we are still waiting for the principle and teachers' responses.

Another option is for our kids to do Singapore Math workbook during math time. Pros: no technology is required and kids can pull it out anytime. Cons: material will be purely for review purposes because teachers don't have time to teach to one child; and the lack of ability to generate quizzes and homework.

(My kids have been bringing their 5th grade Singapore Math workbooks with them to school. Although initially we were hopeful that the teachers gave their permission to bring the books, we found that kids hardly did any because they are expected to do the regular work first. They also do not want to feel "different" and feels awkward when their peers ask them questions. We were told that at our school, kids just don�t spend that much time on math in K-2 because state math exam starts in 3rd grade.)

This is a rare opportunity and we really hope to get it right this time. Any advice on which method (online math or workbook) might work better as far as independent learning in a classroom? Which method will be easier/less work for the teachers? Any pros and cons that we should consider? Also, how do/did your schools determine the grades (mainly for the second grader)? And if using ALEKS at school, do parents have access to it from home?

Thanks!
Mag

Huh?

ALEKS is HOSTED. Its like google or online banking. No need for a server, just an internet connection.

I haven't tried it (we use Linux...) but wouldn't using the streaming plugin alleviate that concern?

For that matter, I wouldn't rely on ALEKS for teaching new stuff, TBH - it has explanations, but they're terrible. OTOH, it splits stuff up into such small bites that mathy kids will quite largely teach themselves.

Scuse me a moment.... AAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH. There, I feel better now.

In reverse: once your child has an account that account will work from anywhere on the web, including home. You'll only have teacher access (e.g., the power to make it do a new assessment when you want) if you are the account holder or whatever they call it, basically if you're the one paying. We don't have grades so can't help there. Are you expecting the teacher to mark the work? If so, then online is easier since then they won't have to! An issue for us with online maths was that there were only one or two computers in the classroom and using them was a big treat; it wouldn't have worked to have DS use one every maths session, the others would have been green. OTOH online's more engaging for most kids and getting immediate feedback is very valuable. In P2 (roughly 1st grade) I used to print out ALEKS worksheets at home and sent them in (as a backstop in case his teacher didn't have anything suitable for him: once she got his measure he hardly used them and ALEKS became a home thing). I wouldn't make a plan to use ALEKS for years (although if it makes school happy to do so, let them ;-) because it does get boring after a while; I also think its structure is better suited to the elementary maths than the more advanced stuff.

Must go... I'm sure others will chime in too.

Oh, I wish you the best of luck in finding the right solution!

For 3 years, my son was pulled out for his own math program, but occasional scheduling problems would leave him in the classroom during the math period. During this time, he would sometimes participate, sometimes prepare for his math period or do problem solvers independently. A valuable thing we learned:

His classmates _did_ see him as different because he is so smart, but they all accepted him and respected him and appreciated that about him. This acceptance and appreciation helped reinforce his own acceptance of his differences.

My son had a similar experience. That is the class does see my son as different, (in 5th grade his math map score was 280), but his classmates are wonderful to him! When he leaves to attend other classes, his classmates are very supportive. I wish to applaud the teachers he has had over the years, (and indeed all teachers), who have made it point to emphasize how each student should be valued and respected for his/her individality. Godbless you teachers for your long hours that seemingly go unoticed and your committment to our future!

You might point out to the school that ALEKS is also set up to use with the RTI process (remediation/special ed), and if the school gets a school-wide license, it might really simplify things for teachers who need to provide additional support for kids who are behind the curve as well as providing a simple means for meeting the needs of students who are ahead.

The program pre-tests, post-tests, and provides basic explanations, freeing the teacher from "grunt work" tasks like grading papers, keeping separate records of differentiated assignments, creating worksheets, and acting as a "talking textbook" - things that aren't necessarily the best use of valuable teacher time.

If you want this resource for your kids, sell it to the school in terms of what it will do for the school and the teachers as well as for your children.

Hi Mag,
My DS7 is in 3rd this year. Our school put him in a 4th grade math class last year where he completed the curriculum and pretty much the 5th grade curriculum too. They also put him on a computer program that our school uses (called successmaker through pearson). They didn't start it for him until almost the end of last year. They let him do this some during the 4th grade math class when they were repeating stuff he already knew, and during morning work time. He has almost completed the program though because it only goes up to 8th grade so not sure what they are going to do in terms of computer programs. They also let him do Khan academy some last year, but now he just does it at home some. But those were nice programs because they were about 20 minute sessions and you can stop when you are done. It doesn't seem to take much work for the teacher because they can put it on when other kids are doing morning work or something else that our kids don't need to do.

So this year they put DS7 in a 5th grade class for math. We may change this as the year goes on because he already knows all the material. The problem is the school only goes up to 5th grade and they didn't want to send him to middle school this year. So for now he goes to the 5th grade class, and then they let him do the 7th grade math on the computer. In the last couple years I sent in singapore math books and some other challenge math things and they let him work on those when the computer wasn't working or when something else unexpected happened. He also is on the 5th grade math olympiad team so that challenges him some. It's not completely perfect, but we are pretty happy with it so far. The also didn't want to use EPGY or any of that other stuff I suggested, but they were willing to use a program they already had for kids at school. And when I bought the program from home, the did let him use it some at school...but the loading took too long for some reason. Anyhow, I would check if your district has a computer program they already use.

good luck!

On ALEKS' Download web page, it requires a "plug-in" for the school setting. (Although there is also the "streaming" plug-in for use in public library etc., it is not recommended.)

Thanks,
Mag

Everyone (principle, GT teacher, teachers, district GT coordinator) all agree that there is a need. For at least the last two years, "we meet each student's need with in class differentiation."

"Pushing for an advanced class, not just for your child, but for the top 20% of the class that is probably ready for more advanced material. Once you have some differentiation, the rest can come more easily."

That will be awesome! Several teachers have tried to talk to the district without much success. Last year, the first graders were ability-grouped for math classes. This year, they are "studying" this cohort of students to see if the ability grouping made any difference in kids math skills. (However, no more ability grouping this year.)

At one point, we were so excited that school had agreed to allow DD (DS was not in elementary school yet) to go to a higher grade level for math and reading. However, this was blocked by the previous district GT coordinator. Since then, the principle and teachers stated that this plan would not work due to schedule logistics.

Currently, there is a weekly pull-out enrichment program for 3rd and 4th graders. We have asked the teacher to see if she could pull DD for these classes. She said no.... and "what is DD going to learn later?"

"For example, in our public schools here, K teaches K math and 1st grade math. In first grade, they can start 2nd grade math. One teacher takes all the kids who are ready for advancement and another takes the grade level. The teacher who is teaching advanced can teach more of the optional parts of math too since the class is able to keep up."

You are very lucky to have this option at your school.

Thanks for sharing your experience!
Mag

Hello ColinsMum,

Thank you for your input with ALEKS... After reading your post, we read a few more reviews on ALEKS. It seems many other parents also recommend using it as more of a supplemental material (rather than primary teaching tool).

Either online or worksheets, we do not expect the teacher to review or grade any of the material. We are trying to find something that will cause no to minimum work for the teacher.

The school is already concerned that offering this differentiation in class will cause enough headaches for the teacher and principle. (How come so-and-so got to use the computer for math all the time? How come so-and-so got to do something different? How could my kid get the same treatment? Sad, but a very realistic reason the school has mentioned as their hesitation to offer individualized differentiation.)

Thank you also for the virtual scream....

Mag

Hi Haiku and lorokeets5,

Thank you for your input on being "different."

Just curious, as parents, how did you help your children see this "difference" is simply part of who they are and be proud (without getting cocky) and not let their peers make them feel it is weird?

And as for the teacher, how did you children's teachers help their classmates accept your children and be supportive?

Thanks again for sharing your experience....
Mag

Thank you for this great selling point! Although with the current budget cut (GT was on the chopping block, but got saved at the last minute), it is unlikely the district will purchase the program for the school. (If any online program gets approved for DCs, we will be paying the cost.) However, we did include your suggestion in our letter to the district GT coordinator as a possible resource for other students that might benefit from individualized learning program.

Thanks again!
Mag

Hi shellymos,

1. Thank you for sharing the programs that you have used/tried! We looked at the SuccessMaker from Pearson. It looks interesting and we like the fact it goes up to middle school and offers reading programs too. How are the lessons and explanations? Will you recommend it as a main teaching source or more of a supplemental material?

We were not able to find a cost, and wondering if you might have any idea? (Since we will have to pay for it.)

2. You also gave us the idea of asking for any programs that are already approved by the school/district for the 4th and 5th graders. If there is one, it certainly will increase our odds of getting something accepted by DCs teachers.

Thanks again for your BTDT inputs...
Mag

Mag, this might not help with your current situation, but fwiw! Our ds' elementary school refused to accelerate him in math even, but rather than give up all together we decided to supplement math at home so that when he had an opportunity to move ahead in middle school he could do so. We used Aleks and it worked out great for us. DS learned most of the concepts on his own reading the Aleks explanations; when he didn't understand he asked us (parents) to explain and we'd offer up a few different ways of looking at the concept. (Both my husband and I are strong in math, this might not work as well for a child who doesn't have a source to ask when they have a question). I liked that I could create quizzes in Aleks so that I could customize them for our record keeping, and it helped us tremendously that Aleks provides a table tying their concepts to each state's standards at each grade level. When we were in a position (different school for middle school) to advocate for accelerating ds in math, we provided copies of his quizzes, the Aleks report tying master concepts to state standards, and his previous achievement testing (through the schools) plus his ability testing - and that got him appropriately placed in math in 6th grade.

One note on how to use Aleks at school, if the IT department isn't willing to download the plug-in. Would you be able to send a personal laptop to school with your ds and would the IT department let him access the school wifi network? I'd also first research whether or not your school district already has an Aleks license - because if they *do* they clearly don't have an issue with downloading the plugin You might also discuss with your IT department the fact that (I think, our district is one) that many school districts have evaluated and used Aleks as a supplemental aide - chances are good nothing horrific will happen if they download the plugin.

Another approach that a parent at our elementary school took (which only works if you have the interest and time) - was to serve as the "gifted math helper" in her ds' 2nd grade classroom - when she asked that her ds be accelerated in math she was told it wasn't possible to send him to a higher level classroom due to scheduling challenges. So instead, she came into the class during the time the 2nd grade class did their regular math and pulled out a group of the 5 highest achieving "math kids" in that classroom and worked with them as a group to expose them to higher level concepts. She combined this (for her ds) with outside tutoring through Kumon, and was able to successfully advocate for a higher math placement in 5th grade (she was clearly a more effective advocator than I was, since I had to wait until 6th grade and a different school!).

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - you can trial Aleks for free, I think for one week, can't remember for sure.

pps - this probably is also too school-specific, but our school offers after-school tutoring for kids who underperformed on the state NCLB tests. It's all online and self-paced with one teacher overseeing questions and progress. Last year our first grader saw that happening and wanted to do it too, even though she's a high IQ kid who's totally a math geek - she didn't realize it was kids who were at risk, just thought it looked like a lot of fun. The teacher overseeing it let her sit in and work at her pace too and that worked great - but - it wouldn't have worked if she'd been a few grades older and/or realized the other kids were struggling math types. However - maybe there might be an opportunity for you to convince the school to supplement with an after-school math club using an online program.

FWIW, I interpret that as meaning simply that if you had a lot of people on the network using the streaming plugin simultaneously, your network might get overloaded. IOW, I think the only issue is that the streaming plugin causes more network traffic than the usual one (because, I assume, more of the computation of what should be displayed is done on their server, and then the results sent over the network to you, compared with the usual plugin which sends less material and relies on the plugin on the local machine to calculate what should be displayed from it). Of course what matters is not what you or I think but what the person in charge of your school's IT thinks, but I wouldn't write this off.

Wow, Mags... we have a very similar situation.

I have a DD7 as well, in second. Last year in 1st, I send in singapore math for her to do, she completed 2A,2B, and 3A, but I was hesitant on advancing her too much, so we also did the 2nd and part of 3rd grade Singapore Math Process Skills in Problem Solving, which focuses on the heuristic approach. That is what our GT coordinator suggested. Didn't work out as great as I wanted, as if she had a problem, she would either just sit there without asking for help, or the assistant would show her how to solve it incorrectly. I corrected it at home, and the poor kid would do 2 pages incorrectly, I would show her in about 10 seconds, and then she would get them all correct. But I loved, loved, loved those workbooks.

This year, they agreed to let her do Aleks. She started third grade curriculum in mid Sept, and is almost done with it. She basically already knew all the addition/subtraction/multiplication/division part of the chart, she just needed to be shown/review measurement and decimals. My thought, however, is to bring in Singaport Math again before advancing her to the fourth grade level. I'm not an educator, but the entire lesson on area and perimeter was literally "For area you multiply these two numbers, for perimeter you add these 4." And that is it. "Angles... >90 obtuse, <90 acute, =90 right." DONE. She got all the problems right, reviews and assesments on that right... but really???

My goal is NOT to have her reach a certain point at a certain time, but rather not be bored, be challanged, and absorb everthing completely. I'm not quite sure what the answer to that is, I'm just exstatic that her math education no longer consists of being the "helper"! I absolutely LOVE Aleks, and love the fact she can advance at her own pace in her classroom, and be stopped if she is having difficulty, without relying on the teacher. For her, its soo much better than their "differentiated" instruction, as her class's top 10% could not keep up with her, or even subject level advancement, as she would be stiffled yet again, even if less so. It also supports the need for her differentiation, as it does assessments and crosses of each and every line off the necessary grade level "goals" that they need for the state. My only concern is having her fly through three years of math this year, and then struggle with advanced concepts in Trig and Calculus because she doesn't have a strong foundation, or isn't mature enough to handle it... (I don't know, I never took calculus!)

If you are paying for Aleks, you will be the one with the administrative code. If they are, they will have it. I don't think it much matters either way, thought. The pie chart and progress can be seen from the student's account, and it is accessible online from anywhere.

Oh... and we had an issue with the plug in at one time. DD couldn't use it in the computer lab. I went to see what the problem was, and clicked the button for "download". Now she uses it on only that computer. Don't understand why that was an "issue", or if I wasn't supposed to do that.

Hi Polarbear,

Thank you for sharing your experience and many advantages of ALEKS program. If it does get approved, I'd be sure to print out some record for future advocacy.

Our school district sounds like yours.... the elementary school years are the hardest to get acceleration. Once we reach 5th grade, there are three tracks of math (including one that teaches 5th and 6th grade math in 5th grade, then 7th and 8th grade math in 6th grade).

We have been asking for math acceleration for the last two years.... and this is the first time we *might* get some where. Just like your family, to help keeping up with their math knowledge, DD and DS have been doing EPGY on weekends (they are just to tired after school on weekdays).

We are waiting to hear the final verdict in a few days and will post once we hear.

Thank you again for sharing!
Mag

PS: Kudos to your friend who dedicated her time to teaching at school.... Do you happen to know how often did the school let her teach? Any particular guidelines she had to follow?

Thank you for the explanation.... I am a dinosaur when it comes to technology. And like Polarbear mentioned, other schools have used and trusted ALEKS. So hopefully the GT coordinator will be able to convince the technology department. Keeping our fingers crossed.

After hearing IT's concern for the plug-in, we also asked them to check into IXL. It does not seem to require any plug-in's.

We will see what happens in a few days.... Thank you again for your input!

Mag

Hi Weids13,

Too bad that we can't put all these mathy kids and have them learn together.

We share your sentiment.... It is more about how WELL they learn rather than how fast they learn the math.

We kind of bounce back and forth between online course and workbook at home also.... hoping to strength their basic foundation and fill in "gaps."

BTW, thank you for recommending Singapore Math Process Skills in Problem Solving. Is it more like word problems? Applied math?

It is comforting to hear you had a successful situation with ALEKS at school. Hopefully our school will approve as well.

Thanks again,
Mag

I am not sure the cost of the program, it is through the school. I have only seen my DS do it once at home (he has access through school and home). There weren't lessons from what I saw. I feel like there must but somewhere, but I didn't see any. I don't know if it is a great program or not, but what they offer. We did like EPGY when we used that last year at home, we bought it but it was a good program. I have heard about other programs like Aleks that are supposed to be good too. But you will probably be more successful using one they already have, using one that's free (like Khan academy), or using one that you buy at home but they allow him to have access and use it at school. Good luck!

My DS worked on "Conquersmath" for a while. It's more comprehensive than Aleks. It comes from the UK so the money units are Euro, but other than that it was a good program although it's been a couple of years, have no idea if it has changed.

Process skills in problem solving are like word problems, the difference is that they want you to use model drawing to solve, developing skills they'll need for algebra. So for each problem, you draw squares to represent either given or not known numbers, then figure it out from there. Its basically algebra, but instead of 2x+5=15 It would be represented by squares instead of letters.
The problems can be solved other ways, even in your head. The point is to draw the models to develop the skills for the future.

I would recommend these workbooks 100 times more than the SM extensive/intensive practice, or whatever its called. My child has already been tortured enough through the school system with "extra" work, I can't imagine doing that to her.

Exactly, you can tell them there is nothing to install on the server.

I know it has been a month.... Just a quick update: principle indicated that the technology department has (reluctantly) approved ALEKS. Yeah! DD7's current teacher is on board with the idea. She even mentioned that she has several students working on the computer for reading, so DD should just blend in when she is working on the online math program. Now we are just waiting for the principle to make the final decision and purchase the program. The principle even mentioned that we might be able to help some kids catching up using the online program as well.

Thanks to all who responded with inputs and suggestions. Until we see the actual program implemented and used by students, we are still keeping our fingers crossed. At least, getting a program approved is a step closer than the last two years of trying.

Mag

Great news! I hope that it works out well for your DD and for the other students who might use it.