Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research The Elite Illusion (public exam schools)

I know a story similar to Val's - valedictorian, rural high school in the SE, no AP classes available, near perfect SATs, plenty of extracurriculars, and 0 for 2 on Ivy admissions back in the mid-80's.

I agree that IQ, grades and SAT scores aren't necessarily enough. And it's not recent.

As someone admitted to an Ivy, and who went through the process, here is my take.

Most kids who have the skills and life story to get in do not apply. That is changing and this is part of the reason why applications have risen at top universities.

Another reason applications have risen is that the influx of Asians and their desire for social acceptance is also fueling the number of applicants.

Another reason is that the new SAT is much easier than the old one.

And a lot of kids are using the SAT prep programs and also attending "chinese school." Most of the top kids at the top public schools in DFW do this. This fuels the high SAT scores and high GPAs.

When I got accepted, I was the first in five years from my HS. The class before me had a number of exceptional grads, but only one applied to an out of region school and she went to Stanford. In my class, my classmates applied to public universities and later did their grad schooling locally as well. Looking at the grad list today from the same school, 1-4 a year go to ivies, MIT, or Caltech. A change.

The exceptional kid 25 years ago had AP classes, SAT > 1500, and some outside activities. Today, this is the norm. Kids are so much smarter and parents so much more prepared that the normal AP stuff is not a separator at all.

As far as life stories go, most kids will have the same one. The exceptional applicant today will have a history of independent pursuits or significant real world achievements. Something that the committee does not see on most apps.

For instance, six years in the US Army Rangers with three combat tours. Or an established byline in the local newspaper. Or a dozen published papers in a peer reviewed journal. Or 30 college credits taking senior level courses at the local university. Or manager in some business.

Whereas that was me in the early 90's, and I was 1 for 1 on Ivy admissions.

I think part of it is that there's not enough headroom in those sorts of descriptions to distinguish the 99.999th percentile valedictorian-with-high-SATs from the 99th percentile one. And part of it is that even with 17% yields, test scores and grades have never been sufficient to demonstrate that you can successfully transition from big-fish-in-small-pond to small-fish-in-big-pond.

The Ivies are generally considered to be much harder to get in than to stay in, and they don't want to admit kids who will struggle unsuccessfully. IMHO you need some way of demonstrating that you have the ability to struggle successfully, not just that you're smart.

Demographics might be coming into play here.

Aren't the Millenials the baby boomers' kids who are currently in college?

They aren't making any more Ivies.

If that's one of the issues, then Ivy percentage acceptances should peak, then decline.

The internet-driven common application form is another reason. It's a lot easier to complete one application for six colleges than six completely different applications for six colleges that also have to be done by hand or typewrter, except for the essays.


I don't agree that kids are smarter today. Rather, I think they're better prepped for an easier SAT. Plus, AP courses have become less demanding in order to meet requirements that "everyone be able to have a chance to try them." When I was in school, most kids weren't capable of taking AP courses and most didn't (and that was okay from what I could tell). Today, everyone deserves a chance to "try" and the system has ended up making them easier.

None of this makes today's teenagers smarter than their parents.

There was a program on NPR, new york station about the exam high schools and other good high schools. A principal at one of the other good high schools weighed in. He remarked that the other good high schools didn't have the AP classes offered at a Styvescant. Styvescant is 31 in the nation and second in National Merit scholars. If top students want to get in there, they are going to have a great peer group. That is hard to beat, when you are looking for great peer groups. And Harvard loves (which means other good colleges love) Styvescant and the quality of candidates.

Recently a 15 year old left Styvescant and went to Harvard. Do you want your kid with those kinds of peers?

Now, just like Juilliard, which became known as Little Asia, Styvescant is becoming an Asian majority. The Asian kids are getting the scores to get in. Our friend, who had a child in Sty, up until last year, said when he went to the AP math parent's meeting, he and his wife were the only non Asian parents there. That may be reflect in the Language portion of the SAT.

Ren

The exceptional kid 25 years ago had AP classes, SAT > 1500, and some outside activities. Today, this is the norm. Kids are so much smarter and parents so much more prepared that the normal AP stuff is not a separator at all.




Sigh. As someone who researches educational inequality for a living, this thread is now depressing me. This is only the norm for SOME schools and the degree of difference between those schools and the rest is increasing, making it much less likely that a talented student who doesn't go to those schools or have a family that can afford the extra tutoring and test prep, etc. will have a shot at attending a top university.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect says today's kids have 10 IQ points over 30 years ago.

I know Mr W is ahead of my milestones by 9 months or so. And he has loads more opportunities to learn than I did - and far more knowledgeable and sympathetic parents.

Multiply this across the whole population, and it will have an impact.

I think many of the so called elite schools are echo chambers that are overpriced and which saddle their students with too much debt. A different topic, for sure.

The school's name is spelled "Stuyvesant".