Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums GT Research non-linear follow up

Just wanted to let people know that I wrote several leaders in "the gifted" and I heard from Renzoulli. He has asked a specialist on his staff to contact me about the nonlinear stuff.

Grinity, did you hear anything yet?

What I asked is how do you support development of the non-linear as the linear support seems straightforward.

Ren

sorry, I got lost ... can you make a short summary here about the non-linear issues?

That's great that you'll hear from an expert, Ren. I'd like more of an explanation, too, as I've been reading your posts but not really understanding what you're referring to. Thanks.

First of all non-linear can be explained simply as picture recall or understanding in pictures. Like when I read I have to visual what I am reading, or when someone talks to me, I have total memory or "scenes" in my life and that is how I remember what is said. Linear, you remember the words. You don't think in terms of pictures, you think of the words "in sequence" so most rote learning is linear. Non-linear is the stuff that happens when you don't understand how you got there. Like the 2 year old saying 87-56 is 31. Now, if they happen to have gone through their math tables already, then it is linear, but if they haven't they just get the answer popping into their heads.

Hunter explained to me that they don't even understand that the answer just pops into the head until 6 or 7 and the difference between their linear calculations.

Non-linear is right brain and why they say many big non-linear thinkers or gifted musicians are left handed. It is the big picture, analytic, strategic thinking.

And we support the linear learning very easily. But the non-linear is different. How do you support that? By playing chess? Hence, my inquiries.

Non-linear calculation is a very powerful tool and since DD has shown non-linear capabilities, first with the early math calculations and now with her thinking and analysis of situations, I would like to support that as much as I support her reading skills by getting different books from the library.

Question off topic. When your child started to read did you have to use different books all the time because they would memorize it the first time they read it and clearly the second time, she is just going through by memory rather than reading.

Ren

Ok! I think of linear and non-linear in terms of visual-spatial (non-linear) vs. auditory-sequential(linear). I think we tend towards the visual-spatial at this house, so I've done a bit of reading about visual-spatial learners and how to challenge and reach them best. I like this list of visual-spatial vs. auditory-sequential learner traits.

http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/appendc.pdf

I do think you can be a blend and nuture both sides.

And chess has been a great game for my son!

On the reading - my son went from not reading books (he would read signs, labels sometimes) to reading long stories in a matter of months (which is a very visual-spatial way to learn to read) he never memorized books because he never had the opportunity to do so. Well, he had some board books memorized before 3. But my DD3 does memorize books quickly. We never had early readers for DS until it was too late. I was under the impression preschoolers couldn't and shouldn't read (silly me). DD's not a super strong reader, but I suspect it will come all at once like with DS. Who is reading at jr. high level in 1st grade. DS is a pure sight reader, as is DD, who knows her phonics but doesn't use them except to maybe identify what letter something starts with.

hi - you're here! i just sent you a pm.

Got it st. pauli!

Thanks for the link.
Ren

Ren, definitely go to the link kimck posted - lots of helpful articles there. I likewise would refer to this as visual-spatial (right-brained) learning vs. auditory-sequential (left-brained) learning. There are so many articles I like from that website that I'd just end up posting links to them all LOL, so I'll let you look for yourself. Also there's Linda Silverman's excellent book, "Upside Down Brilliance, the Visual Spatial Learner". It's out of print, but sometimes there are used ones on amazon. In my opinion, it is the bible on this subject (some of what is in the book is also located somewhere on the web, though not nearly all of it and not all in one place).

Here are a handful of articles that I am preparing to give to my kids' teachers (I have at least two VSLs):
http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/appendc.pdf
http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/teaching.pdf
http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/intro.pdf
http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/appenda.pdf

hope this helps...

Based on the link that kim provided I conclude that DD, DH and me (and thus most probably DS too) are visual spatial thinkers.

I would be interested very much in hearing what the experts have to say on suporting visual spatial learners at the school.

Intuitively speaking, for Montessori I would group several related activities into a more complex one.
And I would let the child do task B even if s/he cannot do task A.

lsa - just one minute ago, I got off the phone with my DS5's montessori teacher (who thankfully is very into learning about all this stuff in order to better serve her students). Among other things, we talked about the very issue of simple is hard vs complex is easy, and she related a story about how ds was uninterested in a bunch of simple works that eventually lead to a more complex "stamp work" (I think this is math work). Apparently, he was able to do the more complex work first, and after doing that he had a better understanding of the simpler works that lead up to it (like the thousands beads). In effect, he is learning backwards, which is just how the theory is described (kind of like complex vs. simple is an adjuct principle to whole vs. part) - I am eternally grateful that his teacher understands this!! I can't believe it. Meanwhile, I could hardly articulate the principle, but somehow the teacher understood what I was trying to say.

We really lucked out with her. DS5's twin brother, who is probably more balanced between visual-spatial and auditory-sequential, has a very different teacher (older, more than 20 yrs experience) at the same school, who I can imagine bristling at the idea of me, a mere mom, giving her educational tips LOL.

Wow, snowgirl, I have teacher-envy! I wish our Montessori teacher had been like yours. She's a gem!

We were given the standard "must complete task a before moving on to task b" at our school, and DS6 (then 4) just didn't do any language arts stuff for the first half of the year. DH and I finally advocated HARD for him to be allowed to skip the "easy" stuff, but it was such a battle!

*sigh* Pat that teacher on the back for me, would you, please? She's the kind we all want!

Oh, Kriston, don't I know it. How on earth am I going to get DD7's teacher (at the same montessori school) to understand this??? She is finally reading at grade level thanks to vision therapy, etc. The other day she picked a chapter book off the shelf to read, and her teacher (who I otherwise like very much) made her put it back, said that she "wasn't ready for it yet." Made dd read Frog and Toad first. I wanted to scream - here I was just so glad she was finally willing to take a chance at trying to read anything at all!

I'll just have to take a leap of faith - conferences are in three weeks. Fortunately I have DS5's little stamp work story to use as an example, though it doesn't really translate over to the subject of reading quite as well. I'm going to bring in my VSL articles, but I am certain some teachers (especially other DS5's) may feel insulted or imposed upon.

The good teacher is very young - I think this may be her first classroom - and very open to new ideas. She was already talking about how the info I was providing will help with other students she has. It was pure luck (she took over the class last year when the original teacher went on maternity leave and later quit).

oops, time to pick up dd...gotta run...

Ugh. The "put the book back" stuff makes me crazy.

Honestly, I can't imagine refusing to let a child try something harder. If they want it, what's the harm? If they can't do it, they'll either figure it out or put it back and get something easier. If they can do it, why shouldn't they?

So dumb!

So I have studied the list of the auditory vs. visual and I cannot make sense of it for me or DS. Are we supposed to be one or the other? Sometimes we're strongly one or the other, but more often we are stongly neither or weakly both. For example auditory--enjoys algebra and chemistry Visual--enjoys geometry adn physics. I Enjoy Algebra and Geometry and didn't care much for chemistry or physics (although I got A's). i just don't see any pattern at all for either of us. Is that weird?

Nope. It's not weird. It just means you and your DS aren't strongly one or the other. You can learn using many different learning styles.

It probably makes life easier for you, actually. You can learn more or less equally well if you read, listen to a lecture or look at a graph. People with a strong preference for just one learning style probably wouldn't be able to say the same.

<shrug> No biggie.

Very interesting. I've only half "read" what has been said here before about VS learners but I read the links and I think my DS10 is definitely VS. I'm as confused about me as asc though. I hate being "talked" to (i.e. lectures/auditory) and prefer to learn by doing. But I am very sequential. But I always see the big picture. But....well you see what I mean. I must be one of the "mix" Dottie was talking about. I also have a bit of a photographic memory. I'd put essay type questions into outline form and then could read the outline in my head for tests. Where does that fit in?

I am definitely going to have to look into this for DS10. Anything to help me understand that boy better!!!

I think I'm visual but I'm also very sequential. I did the outline thing for studying, too, EandCMom. I think the photographic memory thing is a visual trait--we "see" the page in our heads.

Actually, I didn't realize how visual I was until I started writing my novel. As I was trying to describe a character that I was creating or a setting, I realized that I would see a "picture" of the person or place in my head, and then the hard work for me would be to try to find the right words to describe that vision.

A trick: think about what you were doing yesterday at this time.

Did you see yourself doing it, or did you think of the words "fixing dinner" or "typing on the computer"?

If you saw the picture, you probably tend to be more visual. If you thought of the words, you're probably more something else.

Thank you very much. Just checked the NYPL and they did not have Upside Down Brilliance. Amazon has one for $195. And as for do they buy it if you request? No. NYPL doesn't. They search for a library that does and then borrows from them. I am still waiting for my copy of Miraca Gross' book that is suppose to come from some University that lends it to NY.

These posts are great.

Ren

Silverman's "Raising Topsy Turvy Kids" is good, too, and it's still in print, isn't it?

Hmmmm....interesting. I definitely see a picture of what I was doing. I never thought about anyone seeing anything other than a picture. So some people see words in their heads for what they were doing? I think I am visual but I am visual sequential. I am not very spatial I don't think. My DS is spatial I believe. He likes things very messy at all times and has no concept of time. If I say we're leaving in 5 minutes then that means to him that when I am walking out the door he should then get ready! Drives me crazy.

It appears most of Linda Silverman's books are not being sold currently other than on ebay or amazon market. Why have her books gone out of print?? Is there hope they will be reprinted at some time?

I have a running commentary going in my head too but if I think about what I was doing yesterday I picture myself doing something.

I was visualizng other people actually seeing words written in their heads and I couldn't quite get that. ROFL!

LOL! Visual, visual, visual!

Ok, Dottie, I'm scared to say this but.....I get what she's saying!! I guess I am very visual aren't I???

I've been trying to figure out what is so confusing about this. It's that I know that I'm auditory, but I hate details and am very intuitive. In college I would not read the book and just go to class to listen to what the prof said. I virtually never wrote anything down. But I would listen for the big picture. If I could tell by the prof's voice that this was an important detail I might scrounge around for a pen and write it down because I'm not good with details. Usually, though, I never had to look at my notes. Once I heard it, it was in there permanently if it was a concept. But if I had to actually memorize something (like lines for a play or the structure of a nucleic acid), that was a real struggle.

So my two defining characteristics are that I learn by hearing and I hate memorizing details but love big concepts. So does that make me auditory/non-linear. I am so not visual!

And then when you asked where I was this time yesterday, I felt myself in bed waking up from a nap and smelled DH cooking dinner. Does that make me kinisthetic/olfactory?

I am so confused!!!!

acs I have no idea who you are, but let me tell you I would love to wake up from a nap smelling DH cooking dinner LOL

I am visual and so is DS5. DS3 is audio. It was very obvious from early on that they each processed information and learned in very different way.

I'd say kinesthetic, yes. But, acs, I really think you're a combo platter! I don't think you're one thing or another.

Interesting. You just totally described me in college. I remember that I began diligently writing notes, because that's what everyone else did. But I never looked at them. I finally quit taking notes and just listened, then I could remember it all. But since I went to a college where attendance wasn't mandatory, I didn't do as well as I could have! I actually chose a law school based on the fact that it had a mandatory attendance policy, so I would get my money's worth and be forced to learn it by hearing it. However, I am also quite visual - when I took tests and didn't quite remember something, I would picture the material in the textbook.

About the olfactory sensing - i have to share DS4's comment today. Since we live in the frigid north, today's 40 degree temps were like spring to us. He said, "it smells like spring out here. Wait, no, it smells just like ___ Park." This is a park out of town that we went to a year ago after a rain. Love those nose memories!

When I first came to this forum, one of the questions I had was whether my DS6 was a Visual-Spatial learner or not. He had many of the indicators--puzzles, mazes, patterns, etc.--but he didn't seem to be an all-or-nothing learner, as VS kids are often described, and he seemed to learn quite well through auditory channels.

I think it was Dottie, actually, who say something to the effect of, "Ya' know, a lot of times the really, really smart kids learn well any which way." (Naturally that's a lousy paraphrase of her well-written remarks.)

I think the parents of HG+ kids tend to be pretty sharp themselves. Ya'll may just learn well any which way!

P.S. In college, I either went to lecture or read the book--rarely did I need both. (Auditory/visual?) If I went to class, I wrote things down and reviewed my notes only right before the exam, and then mostly only because I was anal-retentive. The act of writing them down the first time pretty much cemented the whole lecture in my head--both big picture and details. (Auditory/Kinesthetic?) I could usually remember where on the page the info I needed was located. (Visual?) I would hear in my head the words I needed to write for the essay questions on the exams. (Auditory?)

My conclusion: I'm highly visual, but I'm sequential instead of spatial, and I'm a strong auditory learner as well. FWIW...

As an aside, I suspect that if I'd spent less time on boys at a neighboring college and more on school, I'd have had straight-As. As it was, I graduated with a 3.8something and lots of memories. It was the closest I came to getting over my perfectionism.

C'est la vie!

kinesthetic?

If you're doing it right! <smirk>

actually acs, you might welll be auditory/non-linear! Silverman was the first to talk linear/non-linear, but Josh Shane does a great job with the varieties of non-linear thinking. I can't wait until some of it get written down!

You may actually be a kinisthetic learner,(in the end I think that's my best learning style) as the emotion in the teacher's voice, which you may have experienced vicariously as you listened, is what you were looking for. Most folks are good at learning in many ways, but some who are excellent VS, are susprisingly weak in otherways - and I believe this is what Silverman found and was able to discribe. People who use a variety of stratagies to fit various situations are called:"Smart" no?

I think Meta-cognition is a worthy study, but I think the only reasonable goal is to figure out what are the prefered methods, and to develop all one's resources for taking in information.

Make more sense?
Grinity

Kriston, the more you write, the more certain I am that we were separated at birth ... that was me to a tee.

Benj skews toward the visual, I think, but at this point he does pretty much all right with however. I think he falls somewhere in the middle, but he does have some strong visual tendencies (video games, anyone? ).

DS has always said he learns "by voice," yet he also does well with visual material. He likes nothing better than studying any sort of guide where he can compare every possible combination of something - all the types of bears in the world, all the various spaceships, all the whatevers of the Star Wars series, etc. That, and watching tv, of course (documentaries are fine). And I suppose he is non-linear b/c he can see something and understand the big picture and make observations about things others overlook. But he's also linear, I think...

As for me, I always hated lectures because they went too slow for me. I'd much rather read the book. I'd usually take notes as a way to force myself to listen, or I'd doodle, or play word games on my paper. Interestingly, recently (in the last few years), I am able to sit through lectures and enjoy them. Maybe that's because in school, I had all these other things I liked to do, and now I am so grateful to be OUT that I'll sit through anything?

I am a little bit confused...

is non-linear = visual and linear = auditory?

What about kinestetic learners?

As well, many of the characteristics of the visual are the same that those of HG+.
Are HG+ people more visual than the general population?

This is my understanding;

Non-linear vs. Linear
Holistic vs. Sequential
Visual vs. Auditory
Right-brained vs. Left-brained

I once heard a memorable quote regarding this which stated that left-brained individuals usually have higher grades (as a group), but right-brained individuals usually have higher IQs (as a group).

non-linear = visual-spatial (right-brained) learner
linear = auditory-sequential (left-brained) learner

I'm not entirely certain, but I think kinesthetic would be a subset of visual-spatial. Under this theory, anyhow, there are only two kinds, not the many kinds under (Gardner's?) theory of Multiple Intelligences.

About giftedness, my understanding is that HG+ are likely to have superior skills with both left- and right- brained learning. Silverman notes that the kids who scored very well on IQ tests did very well with visual-spatial items - it sounds as though it would be difficult to score as high if one did not have visual-spatial strengths:

"I�d like to share with you how the visual-spatial learner idea originated. Around 1980, I began to notice that some highly gifted children took the top off the IQ test with their phenomenal abilities to solve items presented to them visually or items requiring excellent abilities to visualize. These children were also adept at spatial tasks, such as orientation problems. Soon I discovered that not only were the highest scorers outperforming others on the visual-spatial tasks, but so were the lowest scorers. The main difference between the two groups was that highly gifted children also excelled at the auditory-sequential items, whereas children who were brighter than their IQ scores had marked auditory and sequential weaknesses. It was from these clinical observations and my attempt to understand both the strengths and weaknesses that the concept of the �visual-spatial learner� was born."
http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/intro.pdf

As has been discussed above, many people are a mix. For example, my DH is HG, and is strong with both left and right brain things, though if forced to choose he'd probably choose visual over auditory. So, to answer your question, I would say that yes, HG+ people are probably more visual than the general population - but then, they may well have greater auditory-sequential strengths as well - just plain "more"! Somewhere in her book, Silverman says that those who heavily favor only auditory-sequential learning can visit the world of the visual-spatial learner but cannot live there.