Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Advice needed - reverse grade skip???

Hello all,

I would appreciate any advice on my dd8.

Here's the background:
-She started K with age mates and hated it. After having had such issues with her older brother - needed to go to full time GT school, we decided to IQ test. She tested at 99%+. Tester suggested homeschooling for K and then sendng her to GT school the next year.
-During homeschool, daughter was uninterested in learning. It was near impossible to get her to do any school work or read. Preferred more creative pursuits and friends.
-Before the next school year, the GT school suggested we grade skip her to 2nd instead of 1st because she scored so much higher on IQ test than most other students her age. We agree because we knew she might need some real challenge to finally motivate her. She was excited to do the skip.
-Her first year of school (grade skipeed to 2nd) did 3rd grade work. She was unprepared and not interested. She did end up working hard and made huge leaps on her MAP test. However, she was near the bottom of the class all year.
-Next year, I met with teachers and suggested we move her back. They felt that she was gaining so quickly that she would be fine and it was best to leave her put. She finished 3rd this year (they did fourth grade work.) She made even bigger gains this year. She is reading very well but still doesn't like to read for pleasure at home. She isn't very mathy and is only about a year ahead in math. She was still in the bottom 1/3 of her class. She's 8, the other students were 9 going on 10.
-Our family just relocated to a new state. We have an opportunity to reverse this grade skip now and we do not know what to do. My daughter's previous teachers from the GT school, strongly suggest we do not pull her back. They think that the regular classroom (with the grade skip still in place) will be a perfect fit for her. I agree that she doesn't need the GT classroom right now. However, I'm not sure about keeping the grade skip in place.

Now is our chance to right this, since she'll be needing to make all new friends anyway. My husband and I go back and forth on this all the time. She knows cursive, division, multiplication, reading about 6th grade, etc. So is it right to send her back to 3rd and a regular classroom. The classrooms do not even cluster group and do not even start enrichment pull outs until January.

We are concerned about having a 16 yr old graduate HS. We are also concerned that she isn't motivated and she just doesn't like school or academics. I worry that she won't be able to compete as well as she could for HS scholarships, etc. if we keep the grade skip. However, if we reverse the grade skip and she suddenly does mature and catch fire, then what???

Socially she was perfectly happy with the older kids and always has preferred that. Even today, when we visted Sunday school it felt "wrong" to send her with the 3rd graders (age mates) because she seemed to be more like the 4th graders....so confusing.

Sorry for the long post, I'd love your advice.

Thanks

If she fits better socially with the 4th graders, I think that really tells you where she belongs right now. It is priceless to have the opportunity to fit in, even a little bit.

I'm not one of the experts here, but if she's socially comfortable with the age of the grade she was skipped to, I wouldn't reverse that. Worry about high school when the time comes. She's just finished a year of 4th grade work. Is it so bad you would want her to repeat two years of academics? Everything she's had in school?
It sounds to me like the motivation is the issue, not the work. Does she have major academic gaps from doing poorly, or is it the work habits alone that she needs to develop?
I did very poorly in my GT school because I had no understanding of time management and no urge to please adults. Putting me back in a Regular classroom would have been the end of all hope for me - I would have completely shut down. I don't know where I would have scored on a modern test but I got an award for the highest score on their screening test in the history of the district - very high, like your dd. So I have some unresolved issues here and I apologize for that, but I am sure that sticking with the most challenge my parents could find for me was the right choice for me, even though I got D's. Also - I loved having my class where I was normal so much that I would never have jeapordized that by trying hard...

Have you tried challenging her with her creative work? Painting classes with much older kids, etc? What makes her 'spark'?

Ditto of aculady
IQ testing $xxxx.xx
relocating $xxx
fitting in socially even a little bit priceless.

Not knowing anything at all about your daughter have you considered that she has some possible LD or other issue that means that she is compensating for with her outstanding IQ? Compared to an ND child she could be making great progress, but with huge effort. It would certainly make for not enjoying school or being very motivated. But so would personality.

My DH and I were both "late bloomers". I was in remedial reading/math classes in yr3 and then top of my grade by yr5, twiddling my thumbs until the last year or two of school (by which point I had no idea how to study or time manage, never having needed to). My eldest DD, who has both of our strengths and both our weaknesses, and is G/LD also seems to be following a similar path. She was coming along great guns at 4yrs old, fell apart when she hit school and now in yr4 it's all really coming together for her again and I suspect another year from now she will be as far ahead as she was behind a year or two ago.

My point being, for some kids they may not really show the fruits of their giftedness early in their schooling. If your DD is gaining and gaining each year, even when behind, I would not be at all surprised to see her really take off even more when she hits "average" to "above average" for her peers, and then you may really hit some problems if you have moved her both out of a gifted school AND put her back.

Grinity often advises that the ideal fit for a gifted child is the class where they will get 90% with some effort. And that makes sense, they have to work, they can't just phone it in, but it's not so challenging that their self image is damaged by being unable to achieve well.

One more thought - just clarifying here. Your DD essentially started her first year of school in Yr2 (having resisted homeschooling for K)? And she was 6 yrs old? My own DD, mentioned above, has perhaps had a weirdly similar journey, for completely different reasons. She started a new school at the beginning of yr2. She is G/LD and it had not been picked up at the first school, so really her first two years of formal schooling she learned some good general knowledge but it might as well have been two years of play based learning with no formal instruction.

When she started Yr2 at the new school she was assessed by them as beginning of K reading/math level. By the end of Yr3, 2 years later, she was above average in one or two areas, below average in a couple, but over all "average". They don't like to tell us these things directly but at a guess she was sitting somewhere between the 30th and 50th percentile for her class.

She's now half way through yr4, instead of the gains slowing down now that she's caught up, she's gaining faster and faster. At the end of Yr2 we worried she should repeat. At the end of Yr3 we were glad we hadn't repeated. By the end of Yr4 I think she will be performing really well for her cohort and I would not be surprised if she is needing extension in Yr5.

Your child is not my child by any means, but they have both started "proper" education in yr2 very behind their peers, and been catching up steadily. My daughter is 6 months further along than yours and for us, the gains are only accelerating. Make of that what you will...

ugghh...typed my reply and didn't post.

Anyway, thank you all for your advice. Very helpful.

We have considered LDs. I had her do some Orten Gillingham type tutoring for reading two years ago. It didn't seem to be dsylexia after all. She came on super strong in reading, basically when she was ready. I still might do a LD screening this summer just in case.

I think the "late bloomer" idea is spot on. She's been singing multiplication facts in the car recently and doing mental math super fast. But dare I ask that to happen during school and she'd refuse!

I think Grinity's idea is good. Her previous GT class with what was a double grade skip essentially was just too much. She felt beaten down all the time. I guess we were hoping that the regular classroom and reversing the skip would give her the chance to shine. Maybe I've forgotten how slow paced the regular classroom is though. My kids have been in full time GT classrooms for the past 4 years. My perspective might be off. Maybe she'd still shine a bit in the regular class with the skip still in place. She needs the self confidence. I should mention that the elem we have choosen has top rated scores. Very high academics. They seem to be the school that draws families looking for a good school. Their GT enrichment pull outs take the top 15%....I found that strange. There's no special grouping, etc. for the top 3%.

Mumofthree - wow, sounds like our dds have a similiar story. Yes, mine started in year 2 but was doing the year 3 work. It was a tough way to start out in formal schooling. Looking back, she was thrown into the fire. However, she did work very very hard and gains keep coming faster and faster. Her teacher said she was always on task in class and the teacher said she's her all time favorite student. She was always paying attention and working hard.

Another interesting point about my dd. She always hated reading and I kept throwing every chapter book possible at her trying to find one that interested her. I gave in and now supply her with picture books and graphic novels from the library. So far this summer, she reads for about an hour a night. Anyone else have a child like this? Never too interested in books without pictures. She's never even liked to be read to from these types of books. Strange.

Thanks

One other thing to consider when you move from one state to another, that the educational system may be quite different. What they are typically teaching in the 3rd grade in one state may be a whole different thing than they are teaching in another state. Sad, but true. We moved the middle of 2nd grade and I couldn't believe the differences in the curriculum.

I agree on the state differences in what is being taught. We moved from MN to NC. I'm guessing that the MN standards are higher than NC. I'm going to compare state websites to find out more.

:)a full time playdate would be best for my dd. She doesn't like the academics at school. She has seemed interested in science class. They studied the brain, solar system, disected a sheep's brain in her GT class. That seemed to spark a bit of interest. She hates math. She loves music class and is just breaking out of her shyness to perform. She is super funny and dramatic. Everyone comments that she's bound to be in the cast of Saturday night live someday....
She feels she fit in with the girls at school very well. She was well liked by all the girls in class. She had many playdates and her friends miss her terribly.

And yes, I agree on the "very good" districts. Typically, if you pass the standarized tests you are doing well. Her K experience of a month was awful. The teacher was thrilled that she already knew her letters coming into K.....and this was a good district in MN.

Yet another vote for LD testing. There are a ton of things besides the dyslexia you mentioned that could be issues. It is worth it to either have a diagnosis you can work with, or have the knowledge that it is more of a personality issue. My younger D turned out to have a non-verbal learning disability. She didn't really hit her stride academically until high school (truly using her talents in all areas, and working through the areas where she is not as naturally gifted). But having the diagnosis really helped us pinpoint her problems and get supports in place so she could thrive.

Have her eyes checked for the reading things. Although she CAN read well, she may choose not to because of the small print. Her eyes may get lost on the page...and reading is not fun when that happens. A Behavioral Optemetrist helped my 5 year old a GREAT DEAL!

Ha, my daugther asks me daily where we are going and who we are seeing. She wants life to be one great big play date too. And loves music and drama. And never shuts up. But she does seem to quite like math now. She loves natural sciences and we have often joked she will probably end up a singing vet on TV or some weird combination of her interests and skills. LOVES activities like dissection. In fact lately she has been enthusiastically telling people she is "Going to be a brain doctor or a heart doctor - because you get to cut up dead people at university!".

MumOfThree - our daughters sound very similiar!!

We did have her eyes checked and she "should" be wearing reading glasses for all schoolwork/reading. She doesn't usually remember so it's always a struggle. She may need vision therapy, her eyes keep overcompensating more and more. I forget the word, overconvergence I think?

I just got her scheduled for full LD testing. They will redo the IQ testing as well. We'll see in a few weeks what that shows. I might get back to her eyes as well. Thanks!

I wonder how many kids who do a grade skip ultimately graduate in the top 10% of their high school class? Do such kids still excel or are they now "average" in their class of older kids? Your point about competing long-term for scholarships is a good one.

jack'smom, I've always wondered this as well. I guess I assume they should stay at the top. I have two friends who have grade skipped daughter's. They are only in upper elem. right now but remain in top couple of students. They seem to still be coasting even with the skip. I don't know what that will mean come middle/high school.

My daughter is a late March baby so she is on the younger side for her class anyway. If she were a fall baby, I wouldn't even worry quite so much about the skip. She's almost a year and a half younger than many kids in class.

Three things to consider: academical achievements, emotional fitness and Physical abilities.

1. Academic achievements are the least important. If a child is gifted, no grade level would satisfy him/her. Yet skipping the growing process is a sure way to create a child with high expectations with low abilities. There is certain amount of apprenticeship going on in boring daily life, which assures him/her to be able to handle "ordinary" tasks. "MN has higher standard than NC" is an irrelevant statement. For if MN has an average ACT score of 24, while NC has 23, it would show a big difference between the two states, however it has little bearing on individual schools, let alone for an individual child. The best a parent can do is to compare the course syllabus to see if there is any gaps needing extra attention.

2. Emotional fitness. Does she really fit in with the older kids, or she likes to take a passive role, or she likes to be treated as a kid sister? As parents, you need to make sure that she really belongs by observing how her friends treat her, and how she interacts with others in group activities, etc. It is harder to get leadership roles in a higher age group. How she handles it is an important factor.

3. Physical abilities play another big role. To handle it directly relates to emotional fitness. Since very often, it is something that you cannot make up no matter what you try.

In short, even a gifted child skips 3 grades, he/she can catch up academically very easily if test scores are used to measure. But a parent needs to be concerned with other things. In this day and age, one can find so many extra after school activities for a child to do, while school time is so short (mine goes like 9:15 -- 3:45), I find that skipping is hardly necessary. For elementary students, I am more than enough satisfied if the school can get my children to organize his/her backpacks, do and hand in homework on time.

I mention this because there are so many other factors in today's educational world. Homework is a big thing- alot of schools have lots of homework. Some of the homework is boring- you have to just hunker down and do it. I can imagine that a young-for-their-age child may have trouble doing it, not b/c they aren't smart enough but b/c they don't yet have the patience to plow through something tedious.
There is also the speed part- kids are expected to read/do math quickly. Again, it's not enough to just know the answer; you have to do it fast. Etc.
I'm sure some of it depends on what your school can offer your child. If they can't offer much, you might as well skip them a grade or more. Our local school has a great G/T program starting in 4th grade. By 8th grade, they will have skipped 2 grades in math compared to the regular curriculum. Our local h.s. offers 24 AP classes. If you skipped a grade early on and thus missed getting into the G/T program, I think that wouldn't be a good idea. On the other hand, if your G/T program is a joke, maybe it doesn't matter.

Our daughter for sure needs the grade skip thing. I think we have it for this fall. We're not too terribly concerned about the top 10% performance. Some things are bound to be off. We're sure she'll do fine, but mostly the grade skip/acceleration for us was just to relieve her real pain of being in the regular age-based classroom. Also, I think she'll have an impressive enough transcript from outside courses to balance out any grade issues.

Hi Spiritedmama - congrats on your move - I hope things are going well. Is school still in session where you live?

I would definitely not move from GT classroom to regular classroom AND undo the skip at the same time. We had a similar decision to make when DS left a 'very good' local private school that was very heavy on the product output demands, to our 'very good' local public school. At the private school we were called into meetings because he wasn't bringing his pencil to class regularly. When he switched to the public school, and I asked, timidly, at the first round of parent-teacher conferences, "W....w...what about his pencil? Does he bring it?"

The teachers, who clearly enjoyed DS for 8th grade, laughed and said "Of coures he forgets his pencil, and so do all the other kids" and one lifted up a box of about 100 pencils and indicated just how little a deal it was in that context.

The private school wasn't working ahead academically, but they were a year or 3 ahead in terms of organizational skills and output skill expected. DS learned a lot, but yes, DS PG and ADD, was thrilled to return to public school and have a lot of fun that year socially, be treated 'like a young gentleman' by the adults, and learn cool stuff without a lot of pressue to demonstrate this learning with papers and oral reports. (I wasn't thrilled, but we take turns!)

Of course you have MAP results - and if you found out that DD was going to be at the mean of 4th graders at her new school, then it might be worth while reversing the skip too. And it's worth following up on that, but I highly doubt she'll be below the 90% of MAP scores even if she keeps the skip.

Sitting in the recieving classroom speaks volumes, but school may be out by now.

Anyway - reversing a grade skip isn't the world's worst thing. We did that last August, and my DS is loving it. There is a philosophical question: Obviously it's ideal to have a kid work hard and see fruits of their labor - but if you have to choose between 'no work=amazing grades' and 'hard work = bottom 1/3 of a gifted classroom' which is better? As I've said, DS and I take turns! Thanksfully this year, (9th grade again)with the reversed skip-except in Math, and a really 'discussion orriented' private school he's getting both and it's beautiful to see. Will it last? We'll have to be flexible. Hopefully the school will flex with us.

So yes, I do feel comfortable with reversing skips, particularly in the High School years. (That is when the grades really count, right?) I don't think it's time yet for your DD. Repeating 9th grade when moving to a private school is a very traditional time to repeat a year,so DS, with his early birthday is still probably 18 months younger than many of the students.

Flexibilty is the key!
And hard data - like MAP scores and personal observation.

Smiles,
Grinity