Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Suggestions to Improve Executive Function...

...when mom's EF is weak also?

I'm chronically disorganized and live a cluttered lifestyle. My husband is neat but not in the house much. Our son is 9 and finishing 3rd grade. For the past 2 years he's been in a G/T Center public school.

His second grade year was fine. He's always done very well in class and with any tests or in class assignments. His school uses the same "Planner" system for homework starting in second grade, and they really try to make it work for all students. In second grade his teacher watched as the children wrote down each homework assignment in the correct location and made them do it over if they goofed up.

In third grade at first, his teacher did the same. She also wouldn't let the kids leave the class at dismissal until she had checked their books and papers to be sure that kids have every textbook and item needed to do homework! So for the first half of the year my son had no problem doing homework and turning it in.

Gradually however his third grade teacher has been removing these supports for the whole class, and the past several months my son has just floundered. He forgets to bring books home, he doesn't know where his project packet is, he DOES his work but forgets to write his name or somehow it just doesn't get turned in. Classwork also is missing lately -- I assume he does the work but it just never finds its way to the inbox, and the teacher doesn't hunt it down -- she says it is his job to turn it in.

My son has a horrible sense of time. And he fights me when I try to help him plan things out -- says "I'll do it later" but then later never comes, and it is 5 minutes tioll the bus, and he suddenly realizes he doesn't have enough time to finish the 20 minute project he has to do.

When it is time to do homework, he'll futz around for hours finishing a worksheet that should take him 10 minutes -- this is especially true if it is something that he perceives will be hard for him. the only thing that helps sometimes is drawing him a time chart with 15 minutes increments marks on it, and keeping track of what he's been doing all afternoon long.

His room is an absolute wreck. The thing is, I'm not much better than he is. I've somehow managed though to at least be motivated to be organized, to turn things in on time, and to get work done before pleasurable things (more or less).

So I need advice. I really am worried about the move to 4th grade. Everyone at his school tells me that the fourth grade teacher expects even more of kids than the third grade teacher does. While my child doesn't have a diagnosis of Executive Function Disorder or ADD or anything like that, I'm pretty sure he c ould have the diagnosis is we pursued it. But I really just want to help him improve so he isn't so frustrated and we aren't arguing all the time.

I am looking for ideas of things we can do over the summer that might help both of us get ready for next year. Any thoughts??

First of all, it's awesome that you have found one thing that works. I say - work it! Do it everyday all summer long.

Your next step is to work on you. Theoretically that will be easier than it would be to work on someone else, right? Consider yourself a 'lab experiment' to figure out what works for someone who is genetically similar, right?

How to solve the messy house problem? Check out the flylady thread. Just follow the directions, even though they don't look like they will work! This is an experiment in trust and experiential learning. In 30 days you will have learned a boatload about how to have the life you want.

We really get to know ourselves when it comes time to making a decision - this item right here - do I love it? do I need it? does it make me smile?

If you can't answer yes to at least one of those questions, then the item has to leave the house. Then you won't have to spend all day trying to 'organize clutter' which is not possible! You will have more time for parenting and you will be in a better mood. You will start to know who you are in a deeper way than before. You will be ready to help your son get what he needs - but this isn't an instant cure...you have to really change first. Allow yourself at least 3 months of working on your end of the problem before you do anything new with DS, besides what you know already works - the time map.

Love and more love,
Grinity

Try mindfulness meditation. Really!

We just bought our DD9 an iPod touch, on which I set up the App "home routines" as a task manager for her. Interestingly enough it's fly lady inspired and I used to use it myself to keep track of my own life when I was so sleep deprived I could not remember anything on my own. DD has a list of everything she has to do each day of the week, particularly school mornings and afternoons, and checks each one off as she goes. She can see if she has all the stars she needs yet and she can see all her accomplishments for the day. She uses the timer a lot (ie 15 mins to get dressed and do hair, 20 mins for this homework task). She finds the iPod clock/timer much more useful than the egg tmer she used to use, it seems to give her a better sense of time past and remaining.

At the end of the first week she was ready for school 15 mins before we had to leave - 30 mins before she used to be ready, with all her jobs done and little hassling from me.

It's also self rewarding. If she gets ready in time she can play (educational) games on it and I can take it away too. I let her do math or spelling games anytime, non educational stuff is only if she has time after school or on a weekend.

It stays with me during the school day. Which is safer but I think she would do better at school organization using it.

I forgot to say - I could not stomach flylady on a daily basis. But having a bit of a read of her site and some home organization blogs was a great primer to then setting up the home routines app. The combination of having a manageable plan and the "home routines" app running was really helpful for me getting back on track post baby. And the approach of doing a little each day all week is much more effective and realistic for me now that I have three kids than the" once a week big clean" approach I learned at home (where I was an only child an no-one was home much to create chaos on a daily basis).

There is something to be said for getting a diagnosis. My D (now 16) has had so many of the same issues you describe, and really is just getting some EF "sea legs" this year as a sophomore in high school. No amount of list making, sticker charts, planners (lost, left out in the rain), timers (lost), electonic tools (lost), assignment notebooks, folder systems, etc. helped. I am pretty organized, so we tried LOTS of things over the years, none of which made much difference. Even when she wanted to, she just couldn't get organized.

A couple of years ago she was diagnosed with a non-verbal learning disorder. This has helped us in a few ways:

- It helps her and me to know (and remember) that she isn't being dumb or willful when she has EF problems. Her brain does not process correctly in that area. She has worked harder to master skills and techniques to organize herself since getting the diagnosis, and I have definitely become more patient when problems occur sometimes. I just help her out, and we talk calmly about how to avoid the same problem in the future.

- Her teachers are aware, and last year especially they gave her some extra reminders and cut her some slack if she turned in something a day or two late. Like your son, she does her homework, just doesn't always remember to take it or turn it in. This year she seems to be doing better, only a few lapses. Which is good, since college is only 2 years away.

- In looking at colleges, we have been considering what will be best for a kid who has organization issues. Several on her list have trimesters (only 3 classes at a time for shorter terms) instead of 4 or 5 classes at a time. We also have one college on her list that has block scheduling (1 class in each 3 week period). We have some other colleges with "normal" schedules on the list, too -- she did make improvements this year, so she will visit and might apply to some where she would take 4 classes at a time. Her high school has block scheduling, and this quarter she had 3 academic honors classes, and got As in all of them. So I am starting to think that maybe she can handle a regular college schedule. But we are keeping her options open

- One thing that has helped in high school is that they all have laptops (school provided) that they HAVE to have for all classes. She puts "stickies" (like an electronic post-it) on her laptop desktop to remind herself of things. That has been helpful.

- I have joined an online group for parents of gifted kids with NVLDs. They have had good advice on things like when and how to teach my D to drive. So having a diagnosis can help you find books and other people to connect with who will have some suggestions you might find helpful.

I do add a recommendation for FlyLady to what everyone says above. Babysteps for you and your DS But getting the diagnosis is a good thing.

Thank you so much for all your comments.

Yes, I am VERY familiar with FlyLady... I started reading her website about 8 years ago, I think, and even signed up for her reminder emails but they got to be much too overwhelming.

One problem I have with my son and decluttering is that he gets extremely anxious about the idea of throwing ANYTHING away. Even, say, the wrappers and cardboard box that his Pokemon cards came in. And he kind of panics if I tell him I am going to clean his room without him present. But if he is present, I'll pick up things and ask if we can throw it out, and 99% of the time, he says "no" and takes it and shoves it in a drawer. Old rubber bands, scraps of paper, whatever. I do wonder if he has some sort of hoarding disorder.

I'm not tidy, but I don't have any problem parting with objects.

This is very interesting, thank you! I had come across the idea before but had forgotten about it.

Great - start with every part of the house that isn't his! Once the whole house is humming nicely along, cleaning itself, it will be much easier for DS to get in the habit of parting with stuff.

Part of perfectionism - the kind that keeps us trapped, is to blame, blame, blame ourselves for every little thing. I remembered the first time I threw away something - a 7$ cord - that I remembered later that I really did need. Yes I threw away 74 pounds of clutter plus a 7$ cord. This was about 10 years ago, and I wish I could play you a tape of the 'tonge-lashing' I gave myself! Intensity plus high expectations plus anxiety = explosive emotional self punishing. I made a mistake. After about 3 minutes I said: "Oh, so that's what I've been trying to avoid by never throwing anything away - I feel sorry for myself for the way I treat myself, and I feel sorry for the person who taught me to act like this! I do want to live in a nice house, so I'm going to have to accept that I'm imperfect, and fork over the 7$ for the new cord. So I sat down and ordered it right away, apologized to myself, and celebrated the 74lbs of trash that I had been willing to give up!

It was quite a remarkable moment. I was almost 40 years old. It may be that a diagnosis is the way to go, but in addition, get started with the babysteps and get your 'house in order' before you go after DS. Well, give yourself a 3 month head start anyway. I remember writing email after email to Flylady in my early days: "I can fix myself, but how do I fix my DS and DH?"

She just kept writing back - keep babystepping, it will happen.

and I've seen amazing, but slow, results!

Last winter DH was willing to tackle the basement. It was on my list to go down and do my share, but his share was 90% and I'd been putting it off. One morning he woke up and said: "I should do this." And over the next two months he did. I hadn't said a thing. It's just that when one person raises the bar everyone around them catches the spirit.

Last summer DS was packing for camp while in a hotel room. DH and DS had for many long years teased me for making the bed (all I do is straighten up the sheets, I don't tuck) at hotels and motels.
So DS was repacking his duffle, and I heard him lecturing me: "Mom, you have to make the bed before you dump the stuff out because if you don't you'll never know what got lost in the sheets! I'll show you!"

I nodded quietly, but on the inside I was cheering!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

For my DD I started some years ago telling her that I was going to clean her room, and that she could watch, or she could let me do it on my own. I promised not to take out stuff I knew was important to her and to put everything I removed in the shed for a month. If there was anything she noticed was gone and really missed then I would fetch it back for her. This morphed over time to "If you miss something we can talk about it."

I think the first time she insisted on helping and it was awful for everyone. The next time she stayed away and she's learned that I won't take things she will notice are gone and miss. She's never once gotten anything back. And she's much more able to keep her own room tidy after I have culled and done a bit tidy for her.

I have often done this late in the year, particularly if I am wanting to cull toys too, and told her that after the month in the shed the toys that were removed will be going to charity for the children who don't have as much as she does. She seems to like that idea.

Thanks for all the additinoal ideas.

I have looked up some mindfulness meditation classes for this summer and might enroll myself and son in one.

Hey everyone!

I have been doing a lot of research and reading since I last posted, and figured I might as well update you on what I have learned and found in case someone else might be interested.

Somewhere -- not sure this site or elsewhere -- someone recommended this book: Homework Made Simple by Add Dolin. I got it from the library, read it through, and even read parts of it aloud to my son. It was extremely useful.

the author has a website here: http://anndolin.com and also her tutoring company has a website -- the part I found particularly useful there was her list of products worth considering:

http://ectutoring.com/resources/products

Based on what I've been reading, I'd decided to work with my son to set up the following plan for next year; we'll start parts of it over the summer to havet he skills in place by September.

1) Create a daily schedule with 30 minute increments set off and really stick to it.

2) Include DHT (Dedicated Homework Time) each day 45 minutes including one weekend day of his choice. Son will receive rewards of screen time for starting DHT on time (one reminder), staying at the table for the full 45 minutes, and staying on task the whole time. If he doesn't have any homework, he can do a list of academic work (declutter binder; work on upcoming projects, study vocabulary words, study math facts, etc. Reading a book won't be an approved choice, because he tends to rush through his work in order to get to the latest novel he is involved with.)

3) For homework that just says "read the text book" pr "review the material" we will come up with specific tasks, because these tend to be areas my son just blows off because he thinks he knows the material (usually he does ... but he makes careless errors.) One idea is to have highlighter tape, and highlight the main ideas and supporting details of the science or ss test on the first read. Then later in the week, have the child remove the highlighter tape while reading just the main ideas and details again. Another idea is to make vocabulary cards, and read them over. If he is just sitting there for 45 minutes of mandatory DHT, I hope it will create a space where he will figure why not do this?

4) Son will receive screen time for properly filling out his school planner, bringing home all materials needed for HW, and for bringing home HW papers in the proper file folder (not crumpled at the bottom of his bookbag. Also screen time for properly filling HW away in the binder after DHT is done, and emptying backpack of garbage and lunch box each night. Lots oif little rewards -- whcih I am going to have to stay on top of, at least at first.

5) We will work out a schedule for after school that coordinates with his best friend, who is also having similar problems. The other mom and I are working together to see if we can find a schedule where the boys work with me for DHT each day while she care for my younger child and her younger child, at least to start.

5) Every Sunday evening, my son will do a "Clean Sweep" of his backpack and binder with a parent, or possibly with a nice neighborhood teen instead. Everything in the backpack gets removed, planner gets updated and reviewed for long term projects, etc. reward of screet time for completing "clean Sweep" with good effort. Also he will use this time to fill out his reading log which must be turned in monthly. Finally, he will pack a plastic bag in his backpack on Sunday evening with a request for him to go to school Monday and at some point during tha day, do a clean sweep of his desk-- just put EVERYTHING in the desk that isn't a book or desk supplies into the garbage bag and bring it home so we can go through the papers together and archive or toss (or send back to school to be turned in.) I'm not sure this part will work -- it is my own idea not Dolin's -- but I just can't go into school and help him clean his desk weekly and I don't think he'll remember to do it on his own yet. But the idea is for me gradually to withdraw the support and reminders and rewards, but have him still do these things on his own.

6) I'm intrigued by the use of a buzzing watch that you can set to go off with little text reminders (Write down HW!!) at certain times. We'll see if the above helps things and if not, I might invest in one of those.

This summer he has agreed to work on spelling and math skills (his areas of weekness) during DHT sessions we are setting up every morning (to earn his screen time). His friend might be coming by to do the same thing, so we'll see if this is a workable idea .... or not.

Anyhow, just thought I would share!

Sounds great! The hardest part (if your EFs are anything like mine),will be sticking to it and being consistent. That's great that you have a neighbor/friend going through the same thing, you have a built in support group.

Where can you get removable highlight tape and programmable buzzing message watches?

Thanks for sharing, some great ideas and info here!

Thanks Nik. Yes, you are exactly right -- sticking to this plan will be the challenge for me of course. Also working my younger child (who attends a different school with different start and stop times) and figuring out my own part time work schedule and all that will be a challenge.

The watch and other items I found links to on Dolin's website as suggested items she's found to be helpful. The watch is $60 though so I don't know if it's worth it.

http://watchminder.com/

I've read that people have been uswing this watch to help kids learn to focus their attention. You can set it to buzz every 5 minutes or so during some task, and the child is supposed to mark down on a sheet if she is attending the task when it buzzes or not.

Highlighter tape is here:

http://www.reallygoodstuff.com/search.do?query=highlighter+tape

Oh -- another strategy that Dolin suggests and I agree with is for children who tend to daydream or are inattentive when their work gets challenging. She suggests placing a mirror on the top of the desk or table. The student takes a break form working, looks up, and sees his face in them mirror and somehow that makes him realize he has lost focus and he gets back to work. I actually remember having a mirror over my desk in middle school and using it for exactly thatr purpose, years ago -- so i think I may try this as well.

Oh -- the other product I am interested in is the time timer:

http://timetimer.com/

which might help my son focus his attention better during that 45 minute of Dedicated Homework Time. He gets anxious when we use traditional timers, but perhaps this might help. Of course, I am so disorganized, I'll probably lose it!

Excellent article on Executive Function Disorder:

http://www.pediatricneurology.com/newpage11.htm

My son does not have symptoms of ADD or ADHD as far as I can tell, but the rest of the symptoms describe him absolutely perfectly.

HoneyBadger, thank you so much for posting this. I could have cried. I don't post here often and usually only come when things are bad. EF for my boys, who just finished 3rd grade, is a serious problem. For me, living with a DH and two boys who struggle with this is starting to make my head explode, and I am pretty sure it is much harder to be the boys, with the nagging and organizational failures, than it is to live with them.

I'm reading through the thread now, as best I can. Hopefully I can gain something before I am next interrupted. So, thanks. Much appreciated. I wish I had something constructive to offer. On our end, I'm just glad things are coming to a head after grade 3, and not later. I tried to address things pro-actively at school, but that was a miserable failure. The bright side is that now the school recognizes there is a big problem. We are on a waitlist for testing, and the school has approved counselling for one of them (prompted by him running away from school).

HoneyBadger - the last link you provided is pretty much exactly how a developmental paed I recently heard speak described inattentive ADHD (he was speaking particular in gifted kids so maybe it's different in other kids, I don't know he didn't say).

Listening to him speak I realised that both my eldest and my husband have inattentive ADHD and that my middle girl possibly does too, though milder and without the co-morbidities.

Can I suggest you ask yourself why you think your DS has all the issues on the list but not ADHD? If you throw out preconceived notions of what inattentive ADHD is (mostly mine came from poor media coverage and hear-say) and think of it as this list then is that a good fit for your son? It's a great fit for my son. In fact that article was a great discussion of my whole family.

I am not sure if reading that article was a trigger for me or not but after a really hellish fortnight I completely collapsed in a heap this morning. Holding my family together - getting out of the house in the morning, getting homework done, dealing with the constant noise, dealing with my eldest DD going straight to a rude, angry, mean, or accusing tone of voice... Being the only person that has any sense of time, has any sense of needing a plan, of needing to adjust the plan.... it's just utterly exhausting.

Things that have helped us are

1) strict elimination diet, we use this one:

http://www.sswahs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/allergy/resources/foodintol/handbook.cfm

2) an iPod touch for my 9yr old which has an app called Home Routines set up with everything she needs to do:

http://www.homeroutines.com/

The iPod touch has changed our lives. She's had it about a month and within a week was getting ready for school on time with all her chores done every day. She was self managing her home work and not playing until everything she had to do first was done. And we've packed it with educational games. And she loves having her own music to wake up to in the morning. And we can confiscate it for truly terrible behaviour (this has only happened once or twice and she still gets to use it for "work" but not for "play").

But it's still not enough, we need more help and I am at my wits end. She's being assessed in September. I need to get DH to agree to be assessed too. And probably my middle girl as well...

Maybe an iTouch with a wrist tether so my D wouldn't lose it Otherwise it would probably go the way of cell phones, planners, etc. in the past (well, if I knew what "way" that was, she wouldn't have lost so many, would she?). Seriously, any tips on how to keep them from losing it? I am sure that is what would happen.

My almost 5 year old can't keep track of hers but my 9yr old hasn't lost it once, because she uses it for everything. When it's not for work it's for play.

Similarly my best friend tells me that her DH used to put his phone through the washer or loose it almost monthly and never answered it because it was never handy. Since getting an iPhone though he always has it and answers it, and has had it two years without washing it or loosing it. He uses it to photograph things he has to remember, for the calendar, as a timer, etc. If you get the right device perhaps it won't be lost? Or maybe not....

Is there a way to attach it to a belt? My kids have to wear a belt with school uniforms so that would work here.

Ah, ours gets handed to meant school drop off and given back to her at pick up. Not sure how I would manage it at school.

Oh I just meant they wear belts and if there was something that could hold an itouch on a belt.

You are very welcome! I am spending a lot of my free time this summer (I've got the kids at home and am watching some other kids a lot, many activities going on) researching, thinking, and it is great to have a place to post what I'm learning and thinking about, and get feedback on it!

Yes, I feel the same way -- things really fell apart this year in third grad for my son. And part of me wishes that the homework and classwork just hadn't been so demanding on my son and that way, he woudln't have had as many difficulties. Yet part of me is happy that he did -- it allowed us to see early on that executive function was a real issue rather than waiting to find this out when he hit middle school.

We are very luck though that the school he attends ( a public school magnet type program for GT kids) is pretty aware of the need to help kids develop EF skills. I'm not sure how well they can actually help kids like my son but at least they are aware that some kids just aren't as organized as others and from what I have heard of his teacher next year, she is flexible and will work with us to put some things in place for him next year.

I am a teacher and do a lot of tutoring on the side and I have worked with many chidlren who were diagnosed ADHD and my son just isn't like them. I guess it's because he isn't hyperactive at all, and no teacher he's ever had told me that he seemed inattentive or distractible during class. (Hmmm... well, they do all say that he likes to chatr a lot.) Even from preschool, he was able to sit and listen pay attention during story time, etc. He can be impulsive, but it's nowhere near as bad as it is with many of my clients. He does not have dificulty inhibiting his behavior, although that isn't a great strength either -- he seems about typical for a 9 year old boy.

So that's why I never thought to persue an ADHD diagnosis.

I do hear what you are saying about ADD/Inattentive, though. It's entirely possibly that's what he has.

The things that fit him to a T are:

- overly responsive
- poor ability to separate emotion from fact
- easily frustrated
- poor use of self talk
- trouble shifting gears (plan A to plan B)
--poor recall of the past
- poor sense of passage of time
- poor future planning (lack of follow through/perseverance)

Hmmm.. you know what? LOoking at the DSM list at the end of the article I linked to -- my son DOES have 6 or more of the symptoms listed for ADHD/inattentive, doesn't he? It's just not really impacted his ability to perform at school until he hit third grade.

This sounds great!! I think I'd like one for myself, first!

So thinking it all over, one thing that really stands out is that my son has an extremely poor sense of time.

What's already been helping tremendously has been the use of the Time Timer. That's a timer that shows a visual (like a pie chart) in red of exactly what percentage of an hour remains of your time. As the clock ticks away, the pie graph gets smaller. So if I set it for 45 minutes on the computer, he can glance up and see that there is only a little sliver of red left -- means time is almost up.

He's a very bright child, so you would think he knew how to tell time, and that 10 minutes left is just ten minutes left -- but when we used other timers, he was constantly surprised at how fast his time had gone by, Since I bought this time timer and have been using it, he has had a much easier time accepting that "time was UP" -- seems like less of a suprise or shock.

Other ideas for developing sense of time:

1. Whenever you do an activity that should take, say 10 to 15 minutes, set timer for 15 minutes and ask child to tell you when he thinks only 10 minutes have passed.

2. Ask child throughout the day to guess what time he thinks it is! Keep a running record -- what his guess was and what the actual time was.

3. Adult swim period at the pool lasts exactly 15 minutes. Ask child not to look at closk and to do some activity with you -- ask him to try to stop just before the 15 minute whistle blows.

4. Have him cloase eyes andtell me whan 1 minutes is up.

5. Guess how long it will take to do a certain activity (get dressed, toast toast, boil water; clean bedroom floor. Write down guess an dthen time how long it does take.

6. Guess how long it will take to finish a page or a unit in the workbook. Do the work and time it. Compare prediction.

7. In restaurant, guess how long time will be between ordering food and serving. Then time it.

8. Guess how long it will take to drive from point A to point B.

HoneyBadger - these are great ideas. When my dd was in preschool, her teacher suggested similar exercises to develop sense of time. One was to point out how long it takes to drive from point a to point b. I think I need to start doing this again as she is driving, working and always late because she just doesn't allow enough time......

We call my dh the "human clock", because he has such a good sense of time. Unfortunatly, he is also late all the time. His problem is that he always "forgets" the things he needs (brief case, phone, computer) and tries to do "one more thing", (check his e-mail, print something out, empty the dehumidifier.....whatever comes to mind). Also executive functioning issues.

They drive me crazy!! Any suggestions on how a mom with relatively good EF can deal with her smart but scattered family?

This is a great thread, thank you for sharing so many great tips!


This may be simplistic but the more research I do, the more I come to the conclusion that the professionals are just using different labels for describing essentially small variations of the same thing: ADD/ADHD/ASD/EFD/OCD/ODD/SPD/LD etc etc. Over the past 8 months since I started frequenting this site, I have read so many parent descriptions of their child's issues and thought "yep, that's my DD" but then the wide variety of diagnosis-es (SP?) received for practically identical issues leads me to wonder if we are all just talking about varying degrees of the same phenomenon.

Another non scientific random thought on all of this: maybe all of these issues are sort of part and parcel with being very gifted, sort of like how blind people develop heightened senses of hearing or smell. Maybe some kids developed heightened IQs at the expense of other functions but these strengths and weaknesses sort of balance each other out.

My DD could never keep track of phones, planners, homework, lunch money, etc but for some magical reason, we are going on year 3 or 4 with the same IPod Touch! I am guessing it has something to do with the fact that we never explored actually using it for something functional like a tracker or minder, it has been purely a source of entertainment for my DD and therefore it is a highly treasured item worthy of the extra effort required to keep up with it.

Now my DD is getting ready to go off to college, she knows she needs all kinds of help with planning, remembering deadlines and schedules etc, she has taken the initiative to figure out how this treasured toy/companion can also be her personal assistant. I am hopeful this will actually work since she is already used to keeping track of the thing.

HoneyBadger - my DD is 9 and the only person who ever mentioned she might have ADHD is the psych who dud her IQ test, who then said "but she doesn't have it because later in the test she could focus quite well." which i now believe is completely wrong. The whole point is that she can't choose to pay attention.

My DD is not hyperactive (sometimes at home) and is quite well behaved (again less well at home) but she's often off with the pixies when she looks like she's attending. But when you look at the whole picture I am quite certain she has inattentive ADHD.

To be honest I think that we have done a pretty reasonable job of parenting and partly through luck and partly through choice she has a had the best possible run health wise. ADHD, ASD and other conditions are clearly tied to gut issues and my DD has always had a great diet and has never had antibiotics ever, or any other drugs, including during pregnancy and birth. Due to DH and my chemical intolerances she lives in a very chemical free house, no cleaning chemicals, no perfumes, no carpets, etc. DH and I often wonder just how much more obvious her issues may have been if she'd had any environmental triggers or gut disturbances.

Nik - I would not say these issues are part of giftedness, but that they occur more often in the gifted. The developmental paed I mentioned earlier described gifted and inattentive ADHD as co-morbid, occurring together to often for chance.

And I do think that there is a lot of overlap between a number of those conditions you list, but not all of them. And again many of them are co-morbid. But in particular it seems to me that EF dysfunction is being used to describe inattentive ADHD, which I think is really misunderstood and has a bad rep.

Please excuse my typos, I am on my phone....

I just ran across this presentation "Working Memory and Processing Speed in the Classroom. It does a great job explaining what each skill is and how it works in learning and life situations. I don't know much about the author - but will be doing some more research. Anyway, ho[pe you find it helpful. http://vbida.org/PDFs/WorkingMemoryProcessingSpeedClassroom.pdf

Grinity - love your story about the hotel bed. I thought I was only one that did that!! How cute that your son parroted what you've been teaching him all these years. It appears that he does listen to you!

I think many of those diagnoses stem from conditions that can fit into a "lagging skills" model. Children develop skills or abilities according to as timetable, and some kids develop more slowly than others. If they don't fit into developmental norms, they really stand out,m especially in a classroom setting, and can cause difficulties depending on how they and those around them react to their lack of skills in that particular area.

The reactions (shutting down, acting out, refusing to try, giving up, or developing coping strategies that may or may not be useful) can look similar across children, even if the reason for the reaction is different for each child.

I think it's only been recently that the "lagging skills" model has been used to understand some kids who might otherwise be termed Oppositional Defiant or something else -- kids who have difficulties in the area of shifting cognitive set (switching gears) or keeping track of time, or who have very very high persistence/perseverence (i.e. STUBBORN!!!) and just can't see another's point of view (low empathy skills). If you see their behavior as not being willful, but stemming from a lack of skills, it gives you a starting place to go back and teach thoise skills (perhaps at the preschool level) and hope that now that the kids are older they can pick them up more quickly.

Yes -- that's the "lagging skills" theory again. My son had HORRIBLE sense of time and schedule when he was a preschooler -- so much so that I never did any of those things with him then, because it just wouldn't have made any sense to him.

But now that he is 9, and shoudln't really need it, I need to just go back to do them with him.

I've been working with him (and hjis younger sister) for the past week and am REALLY encouraged. We just went on a long car trip and as I was driving 60 miles per hour almost exactly, I taught the kids (who were begging from the back seat every few minutes "How much longer ad nauseum) to measure our rate of time by watching the mile markers go by.

AFter a while I had the kids see how long they could hold their breath. My older child was able to hold his breath for a full milk (about 1 minute at the speed we were traveling).

Finally I had him close his eyes and try to guess when a minute/mile went by. He thought a minute was up after 20 seconds the first time! He was really surprised and so was I. We did this a few more times, and after using a few different strategies, he managed to get to a minute.

We're going to spend the rest of this vacation learning to estimate 5 minutes and 15 minutes.

Gee, that's one problem I do NOT have because I am as disorganized as my son.

But if your husband is amenable to improving, I'd say just ask him to focus on one thing each month (do something 30 times and it becomes a habit they say). If you and he notice he is perpetually running late because he has misplaced his stuff for work, that's a good place to start.

Identify where he puts these things when he comes home from work, and why he puts them there. Then try to locate a place by the front door (or door he leaves for work out of) and label it (temporarily if need be) his "launching pad". When he comes home from work, he puts everything right there in the "Launching Pad". (It might need to be near an electrical outlet for recharging purposes -- rearrange things if need be). If he needs his laptop to work at night, get it from the Launching Pad but return it there when done. In the morning, as he leaves for work, EVERYTHING he needs for work should be right there in the "pad". Your job as an organized person should be to help him at first set this up, then help him develop the habit to look into the Launching Pad at night to be sure he put everything there. Ideally he will ingrain those habits himself in a few months.

THIS habit is one I finally managed for myself -- and somewhat for my kids. SO I know it can work!

So, along with working on sense of time, we've been working on ways to focus attention. (Seeing as perhaps my son has signs of ADHD/inattentive)

This past week, I bought my son a bow and arrow set as we are visiting my parents who live out in the country where you can practice in the backyard safely. IN just a few days my son has become a very accurate shooter; he even says that archery is more fun than computer games (for the moment anyhow). And he told me that he feels very peaceful when he is shooting and very focused!

One thing he learned from his current favorite novel (Ranger's Apprentive series) he said, was to visualize the flight of the arrow first, several times, before he lets it go -- he finds that improves his accuracy tremendously. Is this a form of mindfulness, do you think? Whatever it is seems like it must be beneficial!

So, I've been Googling around to see if kids with attention problems have had good luck with archery as a sport -- I'm not sure. I did happen upon this interesting article, which suggests the sports of archery, swimming and tennis for children who have attention difficulties.

http://www.articlealley.com/exercise-for-adhd-1450554.html

THAT was very interesting to me, as we have just joined a pool this year that has a tennis court nearby, and surprisingly, my son has recently started (hyper) focusing on playing tennis when we go there, as well as setting himself goals of swimming more and more laps. It's as if his brain is trying to get him the stimulation it needs, somehow!

Honey Badger - my ds LOVES archery, too! I think that because there is not a lot of external stimuli such as the movement of team members in field sports, he is able to execute the same process each time and focus intently on what he needs to do without auditory or visual distractions. He competes, but so far only in indoor events. He hopes to do a couple of outdoor events this summer - and I wonder if the change in format will affect his concentration. We'll see!

You may be interested in the book, "Spark" by John Ratey. Ratey is a Harvard researcher that has studied the effects of exercise on the brain. His overall conclusion is that exercise helps EVERYONE perform better - especially those that with ��HD or learning issues.

Thanks for the suggestions about DH. Not sure how open he will be, he won't even admit that he has a problem!

I have a brief update for anyone interested in our story.

This summer we did work a lot on estimating passage of time. It really has helped! I bought the TimeTimer (visual representation of time passing) and used to when my son got on the computer or TV to measure his 30 minutes of screen time. We also used it at the pool this summer for the 15 minutes of Adult Swim. Just these two things alone seem to have improved my son's ability to understand how long 15 minues and 30 minutes are.

In addition we got a GPS for the car. My son has been using the GPS to monitor where we are going and how much longer the trip will take. In the past doing even short errands with im has been very frustrating, as he'd get in the car and start complaining almost immediately about how long everything was taking. I now see that he really had no sense of the difference between 10 minutes in the car and two hours!

How this translates to homework -- he;s in 4th grade now and the HW has hit us like a ton of bricks. I'm having him look at each assignment and estimate how much time he thinks each one will take. At first he would be overly optimistic and say "Just a math worksheet, that's 5 minutes" but over time (and we keep records!) he sees that certain types of worksheets take 10 to 15 minutes, reading worksheets might take 10 minutes per page, etc. So he has a much more realistic sense at the start of how long HW will take, which helps overall.

Thanks for the post HoneyBadger. I like the idea of using the timetimer for hw and getting a better idea of how long hw takes.

Just popping in to post this. I have a meeting with my son's teacher today and in preparation was looking up more information about Executive Function and how to improve it, and I found this website: learningworksforkids.com

They have reviewed a lot of the most popular computer/wii/playstation/DS games out there and analyzed which executive functions they can help kids work on. I haven't had a lot of time to explore yet but it seems like it might be a useful resource.

Hey MumOfThree --

I just got back from a consultation with my son's pediatrician. She agreed it sounded very much like he has Executive Function issues, but she said for insurance purposed she was coding it as ADHD-inattentive and she wants me to get him evaluated for that. She says insurance companies don't know what to do with EF terminology and she feels ADHD-Inattentive does fit him.

So we are going to go down that route now.

Meanwhile I continue to research ways to help a child with Executive Function issues. This summer we worked on time and time management. Now I'm looking at "getting started on tasks" and "thinking and planning ahead."

Any ideas?

I did just find this resource -- seems a bit old but useful.

http://www.parentcoachcards.com/index.php?page=book

Two books that have been helpful here have been "Smart, But Scattered", and "Late, Lost, and Unprepared".

Smart But Scattered (which was a big help for me, in realizing that the EF shortcomings I was attributing to DD were really "she's not good enough in those areas to compensate for my own EF weaknesses") has some good suggestions for both of those. (I can't copy-paste out of Kindle Cloud Reader, sorry!)

Their suggested method of working on planning and prioritization worked well for us, but DD's issue was mostly "I don't know how to break down this overwhelming task."

We use the Chore Board of Doom (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/allyphoe/Chore%20Board%20of%20Doom/ChoreBoard3.jpg - although the current board has far more items) at our house, and the tasks get done with little nagging. DD can choose what to do when, although if we leave the house without her having washed her face, washing after school does not count. I do give her a prompt to mind her board if I think she's running out of time, but if she runs out of time, the board closes earlier the next night.

I need one of those! For myself!!

Yes, me too!

Thanks for the book suggestions. I've been reading every day since they arrived, especially Smart but Scattered...I don't think it has any magic bullet solutions for us, but I've got a couple of new ideas that I'm going to trial this week...
jojo

Ugh! I can't work out how to cut and paste a pic of my very cool to-do list. I got the idea from Smart but Scattered. It uses velcro to make two lists - one "to do" list and one "done" list. Once a job has been done, the child moves the job to the "done" list. It's great for those that need more than a checklist to keep on track in the morning. Since we've put it into operation this week, I'm less Sergeant-like in the mornings I can email the pic if you're interested...

jojo

Yep, that's what our chore board is from, too. I use dry-erase magnets and a magnet board because we had those, and didn't have velcro.