Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Late on Math Discussion fo 6 yr old

I tend to focus on my older kids and I know you all have discussed supplemental (afterschool) math for younger ones. On Friday, DS6 told me that he thinks his worst subject is math, and it concerns me. I think his perception is due to working out of a textbook in class that is difficult for even me to understand. What is this tendency to make math a vocabulary labyrinth rather than working problems and mastering a process? It might sound old-fashioned, but is modern math becoming too verbally convoluted?

Anyway, I wanted to see what the current consensus was about Singapore (Intensive Practice books?--is that the recommended one?) vs. ALEKS if I wanted to get something for him for late spring/summer when schools almost stop working with kids. He's about 4th or 5th grade level (I think his text is 5th grade). Your suggestions are appreciated.

I'm sorry about your DS's troubles, cym.

Both Singapore and Aleks are good programs. There are pros and cons to each, depending upon your specific situation.

Does he (and do you) prefer workbooks or computer work? That's a key (and simple) distinguishing feature between the two, I think.

Aleks has a free trial, so that's handy if you want to see what you think of it before you pay anything. It does have a monthly fee, whereas for Singapore you only pay for the books you use, so for afterschooling, I would guess Singapore would probably be cheaper. (For full-on HSing, I think the cost issue would be less of a factor, since we go through the books pretty fast.)

Singapore tends to have a different slant on math than most programs I've seen. More "mental math." Fewer practice problems and less review. That can take some getting used to, but it is probably also good if you're trying to help a kid who is frustrated by the usual approach.

As for which Singapore workbook to choose:
* "Intensive Practice" and "Challenging Word Problems" are good if you want to challenge a child with more critical thinking work and less arithmetic--and sometimes challenge them a lot, because the problems can be downright hard. The arithmetic isn't hard, but you have to do some serious lateral thinking to figure out the solution!
* So if you're looking to push him in the area of problem-solving, then I'd recommend "Intensive Practice."
* If word problems are a good way to reach him, then "Challenging Word Problems" would be my first choice.
* If you just want to make sure he's got the basic math skills, then the regular workbooks are probably better.

If you decide you want Singapore, be sure to check their website so that you get the level of workbook that's right for your DS. 4A is really more like 2nd semester of 4th grade rather than 1st semester. The website tells you what's covered in each book so you don't buy the wrong thing and waste your money.

I know I'm not strongly recommending one thing over another, but that's because your needs and wants are what will distinguish between the curricula choices.

I hope I haven't totally confused you...

While I like Singapore Math, I am having problems deciding which books /levels I should purchase. I have mentioned before that I have bought 5 A and 5 B for DD at the beginning of her 5th grade, and 5A was a total waste of time and money. It would be nice to be able to go to a bookstore and have a look at the books before buying.
Other than that I think they are excellent:-)

On the Singapore website they have placement tests that you can print out and give to your child to determine the appropriate placement.

http://www.singaporemath.com/Placement_Test_s/86.htm

Summer

We are using Aleks for afterschooling to keep DS interested in math. His in class math is sort of a round robin approach of doing 3 or 4 concepts on each worksheet and then just repeating these concepts over and over and over.

The computer aspect makes it "fun" to him since it doesn't count against his normal screen time allowance. I like the presentation style in Aleks and the online tools it provides. You can also print out worksheets and such for additional review. One of the best features to me from an afterschooling approach is that when he signs on,he has to review the topics he did the time before. This is great reinforcement since it is often a couple days between sessions.

I did try Singapore a couple years ago for a summer. DS hated the worksheet approach since it felt too much like more school.

Both seem to be good programs though.

Good luck!

Thanks, all! Guess I didn't realize there's a placement test for Singapore. I'll ask DS to do it and see which level is appropriate.

I'm a little jaded about subscriptions for online programs...it seems like the minute I pay is the minute my kids lose interest. We subscribed to BrainPop, which the kids loved at school, but not at home. Then RuneScape--same thing. I'll have to see about ALEKS--his classroom has it, but they haven't worked on it this year; he's supposed to do it a lot next year.

Our DS8 is using Aleks. I don't have any experience with Singapore, so unfortunately I can't help with that.

Aleks is working well for us. We homeschool, had been using Teaching Textbooks' Algebra I until recently. I found some parts of TT that didn't work for us, and found Aleks when I was looking for a similar (computer-based) math program. Aleks does a lot of what TT did, and quite a bit more. It also addressed specific concerns I had about mastery of certain concepts that our son was having trouble with; in TT, he didn't get much of a chance to work on those before moving on, whereas in Aleks, he *must* master them before moving on, even if that means having to do 20 similar problems.

Also, I like that I can print worksheets and schedule assessements (tests) whenever I want. We live in a state that requires a lot of paperwork from homeschoolers, so it's also nice that Aleks has that end of things covered, right down to mapping what DS can do against our state's math standards. For our son, the whole pie thing is very motivating. One more plus is that Aleks does an initial assessment that is fairly in-depth, so before you even start you get an idea of exactly what concepts your child knows and doesn't know.

Tara

But it says to allow SEVERAL HOURS for secondary level test!
When?

Do any of you actually have at home books for 7th grade and up?
Is it true that they have challenge/word problems already build into them?

I assume you mean for Singapore, right?

We aren't at that level yet. But they do let you see a fairly detailed outline of topics covered in the book, plus they let you peek inside and see actual sample pages of the book. In my experience, the samples are very much what the whole book looks like. There have been no real surprises for me with their stuff if you check the website thoroughly and make use of all the help they give you.

I do know that all the books we have used (5 so far) have some challenge and word problems in them. They're just not as hard as the extra-challenging workbooks.

7th grade starts a new series though, so it might be different. I'd say check the website.

Ghost is pretty much independent in all that he does, but coordination of all of it is beyond him yet - or he is like his dad and will never be able to remember dates and appt.;-)
I am profoundly exhausted by being a driver - yes - and it does not look like it is going to change any time soon, unfortunately. We live in the area with a very poor public transportation system, so I have no choice but to be my kid'd private chauffeur.

Yes Kriston, I meant Singapore - sorry:-)
Anyone owns higer math textbooks?

I second Singapore and Alex. I would also recommend looking into Zaccaro Primary Challenge math. I am pretty sure we will use Singapore and Zaccaro for hs.

I haven't seen the 7th grade books yet. I think I read Art of Problem solving may be better at that point, but honestly what do I know?

AoPS are excellent, but for very top math kids. Most of their books also do not follow any specific curricula, so it is kind of hard to use them as your core book. Having said that I again stress that they are excellent.

It is hard to use Zaccaro as your core books - they are definitely enrichment. We loved especially What Future Scientists and Engineers Should Know - or something like that.

My kids use Singapore for elementary math. We have used a variety of online math and textbooks for higher level math. Sorry, Ania, don't know anything about the upper level Singapore.

Oh boy, do I know how that feels! I have 3-4 carpools depending on the activities, but sometimes it seems like keeping track of carpools is even harder than just doing it all yourself (if you could be two places at the same time). We have really pared down the activities. Even so, I continue to deny DS6 gymnastics and DS11 guitar lessons because I don't want more stuff to track and be responsible for. Maybe after spring break...but then soccer starts, and summertime is around the corner.

I think AoPS is excellent, very challenging, very fast-paced, and for the serious math-talented youth (not kid!). It comes with a "community" of other math-talented kids, who enjoy solving problems for fun (difficult problems!). DS 9 is taking the Intro to Algebra course, which covers topics in both Alg 1 & Alg 2, plus some trig; most of the kids are older (11-12), but I was pretty desperate. He can't do many of the challenge problems, but he's exposed to new topics. My strategy is that he'll take a "real" Alg 1 course next year for credit, where he'll solve all the problems, maybe do a couple competitions, and maybe take another AoPS course toward the end of that to keep finding out new topics. We'll see.

As for DS 6, his teacher says she'll get him to work a little more on ALEKS, since he'll be doing it a lot next year, and I'll probably buy some Singapore for self-paced summertime work.

Do they offer Intro to Algebra? I thought they only offered Intermediate Algebra?
DS started his "flirt" with AoPS by taking AMC 10 class. The rationale was that it will get him prepared better for AMC 8, since AoPS does not offer AMC 8 class. What can I say - the class was very difficult for Ghost, he could not follow most of the problems.
Next he took Intro to Counting and Probability and it was a totally different story. He was able to follow during class sessions, was contributing a lot to the classroom discussion. To learn most from AoPS you have to be familar with the subject to the point of being able to participate during class. If you are just sitting in front of the computer and watching it like a lecture (as Ghost did for AMC 10 class), you are not going to gain a lot . After each lesson about 10 problems are posted online for class participants. You have to wrestle your brain and try to solve them, even partially. After second lesson a challenge set number 1 is released. You have a few weeks to submit it to your instructor for evaluation. After leson 8 set number 2 is released. Those are really difficult problems (that's why it is called challenge :-)and it takes a while to answer them. And then within the challenge, there is even a larger challenge - Ghost was not even able to touch those problems:-)
Of course he was procrastinating, and you can't do that - you have to be very systematic and start working on the challenge set as soon as it gets released. But it is easier said than done.
Do not even think about participating in the class without a textbook. Actually, they ask you to read selected chapters before each lesson, so you will have some idea of the problems you are about to encounter.
They say that of all the intro classes Geometry is the most challenging. It is also the longest. DS is still waiting to take that, even though he "did" Geometry last year.
What I am trying to say, like Cym did in her last post, do not jump into AoPS just because your child is gifted in math. I think is is better for them to cover the material at school first and then learn on AoPS how to approach problems that are based upon that section of math.

Also, AOPS Intro to Problem Solving Books (I -The Basics and II - -And Beyond) are great for math clubs. There is a school here in Utah that has a daily problem solving class based on those books. Kids from that school are excelling on all math contests in our state.

Yes, Ania, there's an "Intro to Algebra" course, book, solutions, etc. I think it is an amazing class, but very very hard. I find it harder than the honors Algebra 1 course by EPGY, though the nice thing is DS isn't worried about a grade. If he gets several problems wrong or doesn't do them, it's purely for himself.

Thanx Cym !
How come I have not seen that?
Guess what class DS will be signing for next:-)
Even though he can do more complex problems, he still strugles (makes mistakes)on the easy ones, so our mutual decision was to repeat an Algebra course. I am so glad they are doing that!
Thanx again Cym!!!