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    #248624 04/14/21 07:26 PM
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    Hi, haven't posted in a while, so here is a quick reminder:

    DYS age 11, diagnosed ADHD, ASD, TS, and anxiety. FSIQ 144, NVI 158, VCI 118, similarities scores of 11/15/13 at ages 7/9/11 respectively (only the first was obtained during an official administration of the full test by the school, the other two were taken during a study we participated in for autism research.) WIAT math 160, verbal 130's.

    Now, on to my actual questions. After learning a bit about what the similarities section of the test seems to be looking for I wasn't really surprised DS did poorly on it when tested the first time. From what I gather it involves categorizing things and thinking about them in certain systematic ways that he has never been good at.

    Recently I mentioned this to his BSC and she informally assessed him on a basic "which item does not belong" activity and she said that he performed at about the level she would expect for a 7 year old. As in, there are 4 food items and 3 are veggies and one is not and he doesn't get the obvious answer. He hems and haws for about 5 minutes, talking about which vowels and consonants the names of the items share or do not share, their colors, the quality of their flavors, even debating the exact variety of some of the species of vegetable, which obviously is of no import whatsoever.

    My questions are, what does this mean for him educationally and is there anything I can do to work on it specifically? I find myself wondering if the same underlying weakness that is leading him to have so much trouble with such a simple concept is also interfering with his ability to complete his school writing assignments.

    He is a wonderful creative writer (this is relatively recent!) and he has great technical writing skill, but he can't seem to write a cohesive, properly structured, logically organized school report style paper. He is going into 6th grade next year and I plan on asking for writing accommodations at the upcoming IEP meeting to have them in place for middle school. I am worried they are going to insist that it is more a matter of lack of effort on his part rather than a lack of ability.

    I should mention I have been homeschooling him this year due to covid and the difficulty he was having with distance learning/the hybrid model. He has really grown in his creativity, writing many short stories, poems, and journal entries, as well as finally becoming interested in art, painting and drawing many pictures of his special interest, creating tons of maps of both real and imagined places, and making the most devious mazes ever. He also took up piano about a year and a half ago and has progressed rapidly through the Suzuki method, surprising everyone as he finished book one in under 3 months while in OT still learning how to tie his shoes! He is now super into composing and spends much of his free time writing sheet music. Apparently pulling your kid out of school can really boost their creativity! (and I honestly thought my kid didn't have any :P)

    Back to the writing. Working with him first hand I can see that he isn't just being lazy. And I can see that his best efforts are disorganized. The things he chooses to include/the ordering of his thoughts are, to me, completely illogical. He can write a story just fine, with a logical sequence of events, but he can't choose topic sentences and support them with relevant information in a way that would leave readers feeling anything but confusion. He jumps around, includes irrelevant information, barely sticks to the thesis, all the while taking an incomprehensible amount of time to compose even a single sentence.

    This all has all lead me to wonder if there is some basic deficit in his underlying way of organizing the world around him. If he doesn't think apple=fruit and instead thinks apple=a word with double consonants this could easily lead to him writing or thinking something that doesn't logically follow for most people. Especially if he makes the assumption that everyone else categorizes apples the same way. We of course make the assumption that the most salient feature of an apple is it's affiliation with fruits in general as well as it being crisp and delicious.

    So yeah, am I just trying to force some evidence to fit a theory or is there some truth to the idea that he might have a specific deficit that is affecting a couple of different academic tasks? If so, how do I help him get better at it?

    And as an aside, his vocab score has gone down each time he has been tested, should I take this to mean that he is no longer learning new words? It was 16/13/11 at 7,9,11. Is that normal? He reads a lot and we think he has a pretty impressive vocabulary. The study did not provide any additional written material, just the scores, and he was not allowed to take his ADHD meds due to the study criteria. But the 11 really surprised me even taking into account his lack of medication. He did after all still get his usual 19 in digit span every time. I guess that one and figure weights (also 19 all 3 times) must be pretty accurate if they are that stable! He also was stable on symbol search and nearly so on matrix reasoning. Just these verbal measures are all over the place! The study did not do any visual spatial measures, so can't compare there.

    And that marks the end of my huge rambling question/life update smile

    Last edited by SaturnFan; 04/14/21 07:37 PM.
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    This is definitely not an expert opinion, but my untrained hunch is that the divergent answers did it. I remember trying out some internet sample questions on my DS when he was little out of curiosity, and he gave some unusual answers like your son (things like: “doesn’t have three vowels in the name” or “doesn’t have another possible name” or “is inanimate and made of things that were formerly animate”.)

    Those answers were the reason I never bothered testing. He was going to answer whatever he pleased and bend the test to his will. Cheap answer, that. ☺️


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    Another thought from the perspective of a family tackling EF and what’s worked for us. Can you help him pre-formulate a structure to his essays and help him storyboard? I think of this as a skill to be learned, not an innate deficit. Then break each discrete piece into a standalone task.

    If it’s creative writing, I ask my DS how a paragraph starts and ends. What idea or imagery is he advancing in that space? What information does the reader already have? Does he want to confirm or disconfirm that? Does he want to introduce an element of surprise or humour? Can he imagine, visualize, act out, or talk it through? I find helping concretize the content helps DS regulate his attention better and focus on what he’s delivering. The more the content can feel like a tangible amalgam, the less he’ll feel like he’s parsing and collating 100 disparate items.

    For non-fiction writing, I often give him an audio recorder to dictate into. The disconnect between verbal output and written output is significant. This strategy allows him to separate the acts of delivering substantive content, and transcribing and enacting proper writing mechanics. That discovery was a powerful one for us. It’s doable in school, too, if he has a quiet space to work and a headset, and can reliably whisper.


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    I am laughing at the divergent answers on the similarities test. I had a similar issue (varieties of vegetables :D) when I took an IQ test at 8-9, and I was internally quite outraged that the answer to a question in what has been presented as an *intelligence test* was so *dumb*. What did *he* think?

    That said with an ASD diagnosis... They do think differently, and theory of mind can be a huge issue when they try to map what is in their brain to something other people can understand. It makes sense to them, if not to us.

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    It took me a long time to get my kids to understand that when taking a test, the correct answer isn't what you think it is, it's what the test maker thinks it is, and that this is true even if the question is prefaced by something like "What do you think...?"

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    I see this quite often in students on the spectrum. Two key things you've mentioned:

    1. categorizing quite unconventionally, often based not on what we might call in NT-land the essence of the thing. There's a famous (possibly apocryphal) story ascribed to a number of prominent HFAs, about the concept of "cat". Instead of an idealized (Platonian, one might say) image of a cat, it's more like a slideshow/file of many, many specific cats, which have been individually tagged as "cat". In the absence of a specific tag, there isn't an automatic conceptual quality that stands out. So any given tag could be the one reached for.

    And yes, sometimes it's just divergent thinking. But I think you're seeing a way of categorizing that is based on bits and pieces that NTs would view as non-salient details, rather than conceptual categories, which is much more ASD in nature.

    2. organization in written expression. Executive function is a huge part of writing, especially once one gets past simple sentences, and especially for persuasive writing.

    What you want to go to the district with is a request that they remediate the impact of the executive functions known to be associated with ASD in the context of his academics, especially in written expression. EF includes many skills necessary for written output beyond simple sentences: idea generation, initiation, planning, organization, to name a few. He also may struggle with cognitive flexibility once he gets stuck somewhere in the writing process.

    They'll be familiar with the impact of EF on work completion, but my experience is that it also hits pretty hard in written expression. But it can be taught. One of my recent evaluations was a lovely ASD student whose essay writing has soared from well below average to totally on grade level over the course of high school. Direct instruction and consistently scaffolding EF with graphic organizers, rubrics/checklists, and cues until it becomes second nature will work wonders.


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    Thanks so much everyone, you are all my experts smile

    Regarding the school, I'm not so certain they actually consider DS to be autistic (so getting them to remediate just based on the diagnosis may be difficult). They have it on the IEP and of course we have provided plenty of medical records, but on an individual basis with staff I often get the feeling they don't agree with the diagnosis (and sometimes they flat out say so.) Even the person in charge of his wraparound services doubts the diagnosis (but his actual BSC he works with does not).

    When he was first diagnosed at 2.5 they had to use home videos as a tie-breaker because he came up ASD by only a point or two on two measures and not ASD by a few points on the other two measures. ADHD and TS are known to cause social skills deficits as well and we are 100% sure he has those, which muddies the waters.

    Basically, a lot of people (even experts) have doubted the diagnosis and attributed it to his other disabilities or his high IQ.

    We have had him in a bunch of studies over the years (because I like to contribute to science) and they always make sure a child qualifies by giving the ADOS, and he always qualifies. I think he's had the ADOS 5 times now in addition to many other screening instruments and they all agree he is on the spectrum. As his mother I have gone back and forth, but now that he is older I think it is more obvious. His intense interests and single minded focus on them can't really be explained away by high IQ or social skills deficits. Or his lack of friends at school.

    So, what I'm trying to say is that whenever I ask for an accommodation related to his ASD diagnosis I get a lot of "You don't really think he needs that do you?" I frequently get outright disbelief and even indignation when talking to people about his diagnosis, especially at the school.

    There is plenty of talk about how gifted kids can have some autistic traits, but no one talks about gifted kids being able to cover up their autistic traits. Maybe his high IQ is the reason he looks less autistic, not the reason he looks more autistic?

    And speaking specifically of work completion aeh, I talk a lot about it at the IEP meetings (and they don't seem to hold him to the same standards as the rest of the kids), but there are no specific accommodations listed in the IEP related to work completion. Since he will be getting a whole new team and presumable much higher work requirements when he moves on to middle school, should we add something more specific to the IEP? Do you have any typical wording that might be used?

    I don't think I even mentioned it, but he will be going back to school in about 2 weeks now that they are back to full day in person learning. This is why we are scrambling to get an IEP meeting in to get him set up as best we can for success in middle school.

    None of this is helped by the fact that he is still small, under 60 pounds frown We are fully prepared to pull him out if any bullying occurs moving forward. It sounds like everyone is on board with him keeping his aide, it would take a bold bully to go after him right under the nose of an adult. And he doesn't ride the bus.

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    Originally Posted by SaturnFan
    ... add something more specific to the IEP? Do you have any typical wording that might be used? ...
    ... we are scrambling to get an IEP meeting in to get him set up as best we can for success in middle school.
    A few resources, in case they may be of interest -
    1) Wrightslaw - SMART IEPs -
    https://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/articles/plan_iep_goals.html

    2) Social Skill IEPs discussed in a resource linked at this old post -
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ase_help_me_work_through.html#Post210194

    3) This old post discusses IEPs/504s and suggested wording -
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ists_for_possible_504_ac.html#Post234023

    4) This old post links to IEP/504 resources including FAQ Pop-ups -
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....understanding_504_vs_IEP.html#Post235889

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    Originally Posted by SaturnFan
    So, what I'm trying to say is that whenever I ask for an accommodation related to his ASD diagnosis I get a lot of "You don't really think he needs that do you?" I frequently get outright disbelief and even indignation when talking to people about his diagnosis, especially at the school.

    He has a diagnosis from qualified medical professionals. That same diagnosis has been verified by several independent medical professionals. You're not making spurious requests for giggles.

    Yes, he needs the intervention. End of discussion.

    If there's an alternate accommodation that serves the same function, but is easier for the school to provide, I'd say consider it. Is the school not providing the accommodation, and it's reasonably medically indicated? That's a violation of 504 rights and discrimination on the basis of a disability, which requires escalation.

    In this kind of case, you may have to be a hard*ss to get what's due. That's ok! Stand in your power and be firm in your requirements. Maybe bring the BSC into the discussion as an ally to build bench strength. Don't entertain discussion if this is what your medical team is saying your son needs. Negotiation is for implementation logistics, not the decision of need, itself.

    (And you're more than welcome to debate and consider here among friends. It can be so difficult to disentangle the different components of these needs. Parenting kids like ours truly is a hard job. Just be ultra-steely when you're going into the school.)


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    There are a number of strategies/interventions for building executive functions in students, including for task completion. A typical template: the team starts by working with the BSC to
    1. identify what EF skill deficits have the most impact on work completion in his case.
    2. develop a plan for first explicitly modeling and instructing in those skills, and then
    3. scaffolding and
    4. reinforcing successive approximations of the relevant skills, ultimately
    5. fading the reinforcement as he becomes more skilled.

    Then repeat with the next most impactful executive function skill deficit.

    For example, if work is not completed and submitted mainly because he forgets that he has it, then the targeted skill would be working memory-related, say writing assignments down immediately in his agendabook (or online task reminder system). Initially, the reinforcement would not be for successful task completion, but simply for remembering to record assignments.

    If the work not completed is biased toward written expression, perhaps the skill in need of scaffolding or instruction is organizational, in which case explicit instruction and modeling would involve a selection of graphic organizers (a selection, because student voice is important, and he may find that one of them aligns better with the way his mind is already organized), and direct instruction in how to use them, with guided practice through writing assignments, gradually fading the amount of prompting needed to use the elements of the graphic organizer as he demonstrates more consistent facility with them.

    Another approach would be a writing rubric that spells out exactly what constitutes a good piece of persuasive writing, even if it feels a little rigid to a natural essayist. E.g., the basics of an essay start with a thesis statement, followed by a series of sentences that reference some of the details you will use to support your argument. The next paragraph opens with a transition phrase that indicates to the reader that you are presenting your first supporting detail. A few sentences in that paragraph explain or give examples of your supporting detail. Etc. The rubric would be expected to increase in complexity with grade-level expectations, but might start from quantifiable criteria like, each paragraph must include at least 3-5 complete, grammatically correct sentences. The essay should consist of x number of paragraphs. The first paragraph will be the introduction and must include a sentence stating the thesis or topic, and sentences listing the supporting details briefly. The last paragraph must restate the thesis as the conclusion, and repeat the supporting details.

    It sounds like he is a creative enough writer that, if one explained the graphic organizer or rubric as the skeleton of a persuasive writing piece, and his creativity as how an essay is fleshed out with the voice and personality of its writer, he might be able to use this a structuring tool, while ultimately being able to inject a more organic writing style into it. Or the framing of a building, with his writing style constituting the colors, finishes and interior design.


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