Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments New, with K questions - and language immersion?

Hi, everyone! A friend pointed me to this forum. Sorry if some of this has been discussed here before.

DS is 5 yrs 2 mos. We suspected he was gifted because he was an early reader, and there is a charter school for the gifted in our town; so we had him tested. My friend has told me that based on his scores we might have some trouble finding the right place for him, even with the charter school. Her son is a year ahead of ours in school and scored a little higher, so she has the voice of experience. I don't want to go looking for trouble, and my DH thinks any of our options will be just fine, but I'd appreciate your feedback.

Here we go:

** Scores edited **

Now, here are the schools I'm looking at right now (all public):

1. Zoned neighborhood school. High-scoring, everybody loves it including a friend whose DD reads 2 grade levels above; literacy coordinator told me they could accomodate DS (this was before I had test results, but I showed her some of the books he was reading; they were at least a 3rd-grade level I think). Nice place. No foreign language except as an after-school "play Spanish" program.

2. Language immersion magnets. Now, I really like this idea. I've seen the research on foreign language benefiting cognitive ability yada yada; we are not worried about his English skills; DH and I are monolingual and this is his best (only?) shot at becoming bilingual, which I think would be a great gift; and most importantly, DS is very interested in learning another language. I've looked at two schools. There are some differences but both teach about 85% of the K year in the target language. Both principals have told me that gifted kids do fine there, but they have no official gifted program until 3rd grade and they were both upfront about their mission being to teach the masses, so to speak. But I got the feeling that both (especially at the smaller Spanish-English school) would be open to going outside the box for DS. This was also before I had official test results.

3. Charter school for the gifted. My first choice at the moment, though the grapevine warns me that highly gifted students might not be served adequately there. Still... it's for the gifted, so he'd (presumably) have more peers in reading and could possibly learn even more excruciating detail about dinosaurs than he already knows, instead of doing letter-recognition worksheets. And they teach both Spanish and Chinese starting in K.

4. The magnet schools I didn't tour because I ran out of steam, including IB and learning immersion. I mention them in case one of you says "You have IB kindergarten?!? You MUST tour that school, it is WONDERFUL for gifted kids" or something along those lines.

Caveat: All of these schools except the neighborhood school have an admission lottery, so there is no guarantee he'll get a seat in any of them. They all have wait lists.


So... my questions are: 1. Do you all have any thoughts on how we should choose among these schools? 2. Does anyone have experience with language immersion? and 3. If our son ends up anywhere other than the gifted charter, do we warn the principal and teacher in advance?

Sorry this is so long -- I seem to be obsessed with this. Thank you for any advice you can give!

Can you just apply to all that interest you, see what the lottery results are and then decide?

That would make FAR too much sense. lol

I don't know why I am worrying in advance. Well, yes I do, all the magnet and charter applications are due in a week or two, so I've been having to decide where to apply in the first place (you can't apply to unlimited magnets). And we just got test results yesterday, so I've got them on the brain, so to speak. Not sure if they ought to change my magnet school choices. Probably not.

There is a good chance he'll get a spot in one of the language immersion programs. Probably not so good a chance at the charter school.

Welcome, NCmom!

My DS is currently in K in a Two-Way Immersion (TWI) (Spanish/English) program at our nearby public school. They start teaching 90% in Spanish and 10% in English in Kindergarten. And half the kids in the class are native Spanish speakers and half are native English speakers. My DS was probably about the same reading level (in English) as yours before entering K. We didn't test him on math, but he was definitely above K level before starting.

The first couple of months of the school year went well. DS was interested and engaged. However, he is now quite bored and starting to act out in school (talking while the teacher is, giving goofy answers to her questions, not paying attention, etc.). (We are implementing some new "respect" rules for school tomorrow -- we'll see how it goes...) We met with the principal and teacher a couple of weeks ago, urging them to accelerate some subjects for him. They have started sending home more difficult math homework and they are going to send him to the TWI 1st grade classroom for reading. So we'll see if those things help him.

All in all, I have mixed feelings at this point about his being in the TWI program. On the one hand, he can already read in Spanish (still working on the comprehension though) and is starting to speak Spanish without any accent! But his acting out behavior in school shows me that he is bored with where he is at.

I'm not sure if that's helpful, but perhaps hearing about someone's experience in one of these situations might help...

Good luck! And one thing I learned from the wonderful folks on this forum is that many solutions that work well are often only temporary. So what works for 6 months or 1 year, might not work for your DS in the next 6 months to a year. But there are always opportunities to switch gears as needed.

Welcome NCmom! I have heard that some gifted kids do well in language immersion schools early on, because the language slows them a bit, but then they start to show their extra fast learning skills and it's just like any other school. (Which means that HG+ kids will need some special accommodations in any school.) The upside is they will have picked up a second language.

As for gifted schools, if it's lottery, you will be getting a range of levels of gifted kids, and unless it's an HG school, your son will probably still need something different from the mostly MG kids that will be in the school. The thing to look for (in any school) is flexibility. If the school says that their curriculum is challlenging enough for all the kids and they don't ever need to accelerate, watch out.

From reading so many stories on HG kids here and elsewhere, it seems that you just have to prepare for the fact that you might need to make changes to your school situations periodically. Sometimes a school that is a wonderful fit for awhile may not work out the next year.

But it does sound like you have some wonderful choices. Good luck and sorry I don't have anything concrete. (My DS5 will be starting school in the fall too, so i can only retell others' stories so far.)

(And if I had been a faster typist i would have noticed NTMom's advice and skipped my repetitive comments!)

Welcome NCMom!

Our DS4.5 has been enrolled in an immersion French school for a year and a half. Like you, we are (basically) monolingual - I *can* speak French, if forced to, but DS certainly hasn't gotten his accent from me.

The issues are a little different for us since our DS began when he was three, and we were less concerned about academic material during the day. As he gets older we are going to be worried about level of instruction in math for sure, but so far he reads primarily in English anyhow, so reading at school might well happen at grade level, at least for a while. We have had some behavior problems and acting out, but nothing particularly serious (I hope!); and I have to say that he has absolutely *loves* learning French. We visited a gifted school last week and were pretty impressed at what the kindergarten class was doing until we went back to the French school for comparison, and they were doing the same things only in French! And beautiful loopy cursive! So we're definitely sticking with the French school for a bit.

One thing to know about language immersion schools is that there's a sunk cost issue: the standard recommendation is that a child needs to stay in for 5-7 years in order to maintain fluency. So if you're thinking about the language immersion school because it's an easy way for the child to become bilingual (and who wouldn't!), realize that the benefit might well not accrue if you try it for a year or two and then leave. Even if the child makes very good progress during that period. The teachers tell us, for instance, that DS speaks French as well as or better than a native child his age. But if we stopped now it's not just that he would be stuck speaking as a four year old; he might well lose it all. This is not a reason not to do it, but we're confronting now the reality that there's a strong incentive to make things work at the French school instead of up and leaving. We're hopeful that the school will be responsive to his academic needs when the time comes, and we're getting very involved. But it does give us the feeling of a bit less freedom. Well worth it, in our minds, for the advantage of a second language. But just so you know.

Hope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you'd like more details.

BB

Hi NCmom!
Welcome!
Your son did a good job on those tests - he must have taken them seriously and cooperated! Congratulations!
We are so glad that you are here, and so glad to be here for you.
Give your friend a hug from us! She did a good job!

My first concern is that your husband is probably in GT denial. There is no shame in that, as most of us started out that way, but it is to your advantage to jiggle that ASAP, 'casue it gets so lonely being the 'concerned parent' all by yourself.

In an effort to do this I'm going to quote the Davidson Young Scholar data that pertains:



OF coures you have only had the scores for a day, but the above scores are what Davidson considers 'Profoundly Gifted' or 'To gifted to measure by modern IQ tests.' This isn't to say that your child is in the highest possible LOG, just the highest measurable LOG. So although your friend's kids scores may 'look higher' on paper, the tests aren't acccurate enough at that part of the tail to really make a comparison. Also remember that although the test are measuring 'smartness' they report 'rarity of smartness' rather than degree.

Yes, his Math is 'only' in the 93%, but this isn't how they look at it. It's the 'way out' strengths that make someone 'PG' in their book. ((Remember that there isn't any standard definition of gifted, but some commone ones are top 5% or top 2% of the population.))

You son's scores are indeed rare. But that doesn't mean that you can't find a school for him. If just means that your number one priority will be flexibility. A school aimed toward Moderatly Gifted (MG kids) would work great IF they (and you) are willing to do subject or full grade accelerations. I would put Charter school for gifted on the list, but visit and show scores before you choose them. When you visit the schools, try to arrange for 15 to 20 minutes in the Kindy, first, and 2nd grade classrooms. Look for child-teacher interactions. Look for reading material on the shelves. Look for peer-peer interactions.

Gifted schools can sometimes be VERY inflexible, and 'we know it all - back off mom'
LOG is a cutting edge idea that even people who do Gifted for a living may be blind to, sort of the way things were for 2E 5 years ago.

Anyway, try to get your husband to meet supervise a few playdates with 'normal' playmates, although you may have trouble finding them. And apply to YSP, the application is daunting - but you clearly should apply.

Welcome and good luck with the lottery. Those first few days AI (after Identification) can be emotionally charged, so read a bit here and post any other little questions or thoughts you might have, ok?

Love and more Love,
Grinity

Hi NCMom,
First of all, good luck and welcome to the Boards. I've been in a situation similar to yours with both my children but I'll get to that in a minute...

Congrats on DS's scores! If you haven't done so already, do go online and apply for the Davidson Young Scholars' Program. It is a lengthy application but you'll find it is well worth it in the long run.

There was a post here a few months ago on language immersion. Several folks have said that it works for GT children but will fall short after a few years when the GT child will need more challenge.

As far as the options you have presented, apply everywhere you can...
LI magnet
charter

You can always choose to go back to your home school so that really shouldn't be a choice - even if you try the charter or the LI magnet, your home school has to take you, even mid year.

That being said, the KG teachers are fabulous at the Charter. It would be my first choice for KG, at least. The other option you haven't mentioned is the HG/GT program offered by the public schools. I've sent you a private message with links to the public HG/GT program.

Above all, be flexible. Something might work for a few years and then you might have to reconsider the schooling issue all over again...

Do send me a PM if you have any specific questions.

One additional point I want to add that I have learned about from being on this Board is in regards to two schools of thought on GT education:
1. advocates "going deep" meaning that core subjects are studied at length, maybe even exhaustively
2. advocates "going broad" meaning that several subjects are studied but not really in depth (Spanish, Chinese, Art, Music, PE 2x a week)

The public GT/HG program is a proponent of the first school of thought whereas the Charter is strongly in favor of the second. I do wish we had a blend of the two philosophies offered as an alternate choice

I know there are others on the Board that can elaborate on the two schools of thought philosophy...

We're also in the same area. We're currently applying to the Charter school for DS7 and DS4. The mom I know whose DC goes there is very happy with it and talking to the kid (HG+), it seems to be a really good fit. I'm still not 100% that it will be the best place for DS7, he *loves* being homeschooled and is really self-motivated. I think for DS4 though, who is much less motivated (and who tends to be less willing to cooperate with me), it will be a great.

We had a really bad experience with the county schools (one of the best schools in the county and in talking to the staff at the public GT program). I don't want to go on an unsolicited rant though, lol, but if you're interested, I'm more than happy to share out disaster story!