Last week, DS7's teacher sent a behavior report home that said that DS7 cannot focus on his work and also hums in the classroom when others are working quietly. From the tone of the report, she was obviously quite frustrated with DS7 when she wrote it.

DS7 admits he has trouble focusing in class. I asked him if he has trouble getting his work done in class. With no other prompt from me, he said the teacher gives him "17-page packets" and it's hard to do the work because he can do it "lickety split without thinking" so he gets distracted by the interesting things to look at in the classroom. I then asked if he gets disracted when he's doing differentiated work. He told me that he has to think when he does that, so he doesn't get distracted.

So, here's my issue. The teacher has provided some in-class differentiation, at our request. She also made a point of telling me sometime after her first differentiation effort that DS7 was the only one in the differentiated group who was unable to even start on the differentiated work -- he said he didn't understand what he was supposed to do, until she sat down with him and walked him through it. We've seen similar things at home: fear of starting the unknown because he might do something wrong, and not really be smart....

I am hoping someone might have some advice on getting these things across to the teacher. I get the impression recently that she thinks we're just some of those pushy parents who think their child is soooo smart. And, it's not that. I don't have test scores for DS7 yet (am still looking for a more economical way to get them before standardized testing in 3rd grade), and DS7 is certainly not the easy-to-spot gifted child that DS9 (DYS) is, but he is definitely beyond what they're doing in class. DS9 brought home his 3rd grade reading workbook (that DS9 has tested out of) and DS7 did some and said it was "soo easy."

So, any ideas on some very diplomatic ways of resolving this issue with the teacher? She's nice, and I believe she does have the children's best interests at heart. I've heard rumors that she's planning to retire this year or next, so I don't know how ambitious she feels about new ideas.

I don't have any advice, but your DS sounds like mine! They have a few times throughout the day where they are responsible for completing work on their own. He got in trouble for not finishing his "centers" (math & reading), but turns out he was spending too much time on what interested him - the computer! When I talked to him, it was the same reason. Either it was too easy and he was distracted, or he wouldn't start it because in his mind it was too difficult.

You're not alone!!

We have the same issue still with our almost 12 year old son. However, as I was reading this post. I realized that I am just as likely to put off the boring repetitive aspects of my job. I'm typing this while a data entry project stares me in the face. However, i did do all my analysis work and reporting that actually takes thought to complete.

Now, I'm thinking I should have more patience with our son. I can't imagine going back to 6-7 hours of boredom every day and getting the assignments completed correctly and on time.

I don't really know a solution. In our state we can request in school testing before grade 3. Is that an option for you? The downside is that it can take about 4 school months to get it completed. Are you seeing emotional side effects? This might be a way to get something done before that 3rd grade cut off.

Good Luck!

My prediction is that it's going to take a huge effort to change this teacher's actions. Are there any alternative settings (homeschooling/different school/subject acceleration/ gradeskip) to explore. In a way, it really doesn't seem 'fair' to ask a teacher to redesign a whole curriculum for one student, particularly if her curriculum is working for the vast majority of kids in the classroom. Of course, it isn't fair to ask a child of your son's age to face 17 pages of 'easy peasy' day after day after day.

At the very least you might try sending in your own assignments for your son to do during the day instead of the regular assignments...I have know families who 'homeschool' inside the school building by taking 100% responsibility for the worksheets. One thing to find out is to ask the teacher for next week's handouts, and create some 'harder handouts' that are similar enough (in some way) to the teacher's handouts that the teacher would allow a substitution - instead of an addition to the daily worksheets.

Good Luck,
Grinity

I don't think we are asking her to do something special just for DS7. There are 2-3 other kids above level in the class and when the teacher differentiates, this group does it together. The one thing DS7 seems to need is an explanation of expectations before starting something that is brand new. Apparently the other kids are OK without that. The teacher seems to equate that with DS not needing the differentiation.

At this point DH is opposed to HS and PS would require a move. We like the school particularly for the environment and have made headway on DS9's academics but we also know that through 2nd will be a struggle on the academic front. We are set to meet with the administration next month to discuss next year, so maybe we can use that as an avenue as well if we can't make progress with teacher before then.

Thanks for the replies!

1) Ask yourself if the current differentiated worksheets are really going to be in the readinesss level after a week or two. If yes,

2) Are you able to 'drop by' the classroom' every day for two weeks to go over the harder worksheets with DS? If so, tell the teacher that you understand that she believes that if DS were truly advanced, that he wouldn't need any extra support with the harder worksheets, but that you suspect that it's a matter of confidence, and that if she will cooperate and allow you to come by every day for 2 weeks for 0 minutes of support to provide that extra confidence that at the end of 2 weeks you and she can sit down and re-evaluate the situation and if DS still isn't able to work independently, you will see that you are wrong and she was right, and you'll leave it be with the easier sheets.

3) If you can't physically be in the classroom, then ask the teacher to send home the harder worksheets the night before so that you can review the directions with DS the night before. If the teacher seems unwilling, again try the 'wager' approach.

4) If the teacher is completely uncooperative, try hot housing - such as http://www.aleks.com/independenthttp://www.aleks.com/independent
with particular emphasis on providing support and scaling it back gently, so that DS has a chance to be frustrated with the process at home. DS may not want to do this at school because he knows that tantrums aren't allowed at school (or he may be aware that they have a high price socially that he doesn't want to pay) and he may actually REQUIRE a good old tantrum or two as he reverses his enforced underachievement. It's pretty monstrous to force a child to sit for hours and hours doing work that is 'way too easy' and sometimes the healing process from that hurt can be more noise than what school requires.

Then, after about 2 weeks of your son being able to face whatever it is that he needed to face, ask the teacher to let him try the harder worksheets again. You might even ask her for some 'already used' worksheets to send home so he can practice 'being brave' with you at home.

The behavior you seeing is very 'classic' for kids of a certain personality who have been enforced to work at levels far below their readiness level at school for a period of time.

Aleks offers a free 3 hour trial, so don't worry if it says that it starts at a '3rd grade level' just plow through and see how he does, ok? Say to yourself, I want to get to know my child as a learner.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Hey, I totally understand how a certain personality type can get into tremendous trouble with "assigned" tasks when they are inappropriate (high need for autonomy, oppositional tendencies, high degree of confidence in their decision-making).

Couple that with perfectionism or a skewed sense of "smart" (and self-identity) = "just knowing it" (ie-- without study, effort, and certainly without ASKING FOR HELP... oh, the horrors... LOL);


well, you've got my daughter. She is 11, EG/PG, an honors virtual high school student who is filled with hormonally-fueled adolescent angst, and is perpetually either bored to tears with her coursework-- or afraid to ask for help that she ACTUALLY NEEDS. (The latter is a problem in mathematics sometimes, where she seems to think that "observation" is a route to mastery... and that when that fails, as it not surprisingly sometimes does in algebra and beyond, this is a clear example of a personal failing as a "smart person." )

I have no advice. But LOTS of sympathy. Let me put it this way:

all of this = epic power struggles at our house.

My daughter's preferred method of introducing challenge into her school life? Procrastination and civil disobedience.

About the procrastination; she spent last year's spring break completing <mumble-mumble> weeks of schoolwork. Okay, okay... it was about five weeks' worth. She did it in four days. With almost no discernable drop-off in quality.

So really, with the situation as it is (school's "GT" offerings, even with a 4 grade acceleration in play AS WELL, are simply unsuitable about 85%-90% of the time); it is tough for me to advocate that my DD should change her approach.

The problem is that when she gets that far behind, we feel like we can't "reward" her with enrichment activities and extracurricular "fun" stuff... since, you know, she has to learn that there are things that you do just because you HAVE to... but that means that we may spend months with every weekend devoted to hectoring DD into compliance, which she frequently resists with every fiber of her being. It is also the case that almost every single other person in DD's life begins to have KITTENS over "being behind like that" after she racks up a couple weeks' worth. Yes, I realize that for most students, this would be metaphorically suicidal... but I think that for DD, it's exhilirating to turn on the "panic mode" and drink from the firehose. Oh, sure... it may not be any more intellectually stimulating overall, but at least the RATE is more like what she's after. She would probably be perfectly happy to have taken a full year of algebra 1 in a three week "boot camp."

About civil disobedience: my darling little Ghandi, there, is a completely immovable force when she makes up her mind. "Nope. Not doing it." We've resorted to some pretty wacky tools of motivation when she goes there-- but from an adult perspective, it leaves us scratching our heads.

I mean, seriously?? A four paragraph essay about Anne Frank is your hill to die on, kid? REALLY? But that part of things is about pure rebellion related to the inappropriateness of the task itself.

Not asking for help when she needs it is related to the fact that so much has, for too long, been TOO EASY for her. We've always feared this particular facet of giftedness; that she would internalize that "easy" = "smart" and translate it to the converse. She most certainly has.

Anyway. Sorry. I seem to have hijacked your thread there for a moment.

All of that to say.... if we can't be an example, at least let us serve as a warning to others. Appropriate placement really IS that important for kids with this particular brew of personality characteristics.



Some other things to watch for in this particular blend of characteristics in a GT child:

• Goldilocks syndrome-- make sure that s/he has ample opportunity to BROADEN task tolerance so that s/he can begin to adjust to the idea of "doing" tasks that are too easy, and also tackling tasks where the outcome feels uncertain (they may initially feel "hard"),
• Try to modify your way of approaching discussions of what it means to "be smart" to reflect that smart people DO have to work very hard at hard tasks/subjects, and that "being smart" just means that one's brain is able to process information differently-- it still takes EFFORT sometimes, and that's okay and it certainly doesn't mean that a person "isn't gifted." Mostly, I think that our kids sometimes are terrified to admit when they need help, because they seem to come to regard "just knowing" already as normal in a learning environment. Long-term, that is a terrible thing.
• Finally, even grown-ups have to do things that are trivial/boring/uninteresting. A lot. It can help to prioritize what I know that I must do, and set myself a time to do it in, after which I will reward myself with self-selected activities for a period of time. I can also allow my daughter to have some of this sort of freedom, too. She MUST complete the work the school insists upon, but at that point, her day is her own. I have also agreed to help fund independent study materials for her, on the condition that her regular schoolwork needs to be completed with acceptable effort/grades.

Only a gifted child could be "bribed" to do schoolwork with the lure of more difficult educational materials. Crazy, but true.

Whew! HK, I'm exhausted just reading your post!

Thanks for the information/warning! I guess my worries aren't unfounded.

I wish you a battle-free weekend.

Are you my mother?

To answer the original post, no, you're not alone. I have the same thing with DS8 in 3rd grade. He has reached the pinnacle of boredom with the school year already, and complains daily about everything being too easy. Except his ALEKS math, in which he has reached the pinnacle of his current knowledge at the end of the 7th grade level (he did 3rd through 6th in an average of two weeks apiece and has been in 7th since Thanksgiving weekend) where he told me the other day that he "sat and did nothing because it was too hard". He has inherited that tendency from me, the belief that "easy = smart" and therefore "hard = stupid" and your smarts must have worn off. I've fought with that all my life and try valiantly to keep him from the same path, to no avail. We're a work in progress.

To add to this, yesterday DS7 asked to do EPGY which we haven't done in a while. We use it as afterschooling when there is time and DS wants to. I felt sad and frustrated watching him. DS freaked out during the math races. He was hyperventilating and cried during each session saying he would never be able to win. He doesn't have rapid recall of his math facts yet. You could feel his panic. I explained that he WOULD learn the math facts, that doing the math races frequently could help to learn them and that everyone needs practice to learn them. I also noted that when it came to a new concept, he would call me for help. I was cooking dinner and told him I could help but he would have to wait a minute or two. Each time, he then would replay the lecture and tell me he no longer needed my help. I guess I am seeing that we need to find more experiences like this for him so he can get some confidence.

Good luck to the OP--I hope that you are able to work out a solution with the teacher for your son.

HK--your dd reminds me of myself when younger--and I am just wondering if you have ever considered that ADD (the inattentive kind) could be playing a role in her procrastination? I may be totally off base, but thought it might be worth exploring.

It's a good question.

We think probably not-- relative to chronological peers, she seems pretty on top of things, and she can focus quite readily when she's willing to do so. She simply never forgets things that are important to her, and she has no trouble absorbing/recalling even quite complex information-- when it suits her.

She's just completely oppositional when it comes to being told to do something that she thinks is pointless and unpleasant.

She's very much an adrenaline junkie. I can see that light of exhiliration in her eyes when she's in the middle of chaos and riding the hurricane to get more finished than should be humanly possible... she definitely sets herself up to do it deliberately on some level. She truly thinks of herself as someone who "works best under pressure" and views it as a time-saving technique. LOL.


SHE doesn't seem to mind that process. It's everyone else that thinks it isn't good or healthy.

ETA: It was good to take a renewed look at this, though, and carefully consider the possibility again. Thank you for the suggestion. It's such a good idea, in fact, that I'm going to paste the link here (there is a wonderful checklist of differentiable behaviors):

Before Referring a Gifted Child for ADD/ADHD Evaluation

My daughter's behavior is squarely on the "gifted" side of things; but if she were actually sixteen (not 11) it might not be wholly age-appropriate in terms of executve function (her judgement of time management is mostly very good-- but sometimes she miscalculates and gets herself into trouble). It's so very hard to know what "appropriate" looks like when a child is far away from age norms. I can see very easily how my DD might be labeled as ADD in a classroom, however.

HM:
So, all of the following may be true about your dd, and adhd may not have anything to do with her behaviour. But I am sure that what was going on with me appeared very similar to my parents/teachers/college friends who just could not believe the level to which I would procrastinate and then somehow manage to get it done. But *inside* there was more to it than that, some of what you have addressed in other posts about your dd (imposter type stuff, perfectionism, fear of failure) all combined with motivational paralysis, which for me anyway is best explained by adhd. (I also clearly see it in my father, brother, and cousins, and I know there is a genetic component to adhd). If any of this continues to seem like it might possibly be an issue for your dd, I think the book Driven to Distraction might be helpful. When I was 11 I think that the executive function stuff didn't appear to be an issue to those around me b/c the giftedness compensated for it (and honestly even with many classes in college). But it would have been helpful to me to sort this all out sooner.

"We think probably not-- relative to chronological peers, she seems pretty on top of things, and she can focus quite readily when she's willing to do so. She simply never forgets things that are important to her, and she has no trouble absorbing/recalling even quite complex information-- when it suits her.

She's just completely oppositional when it comes to being told to do something that she thinks is pointless and unpleasant.

She's very much an adrenaline junkie. I can see that light of exhiliration in her eyes when she's in the middle of chaos and riding the hurricane to get more finished than should be humanly possible... she definitely sets herself up to do it deliberately on some level. She truly thinks of herself as someone who "works best under pressure" and views it as a time-saving technique. LOL."

I truly do appreciate the insights. Thank you.

She's been quite open her feelings that this is entirely voluntary on her part-- but we do ask. If there is a point where any of this feels as though it isn't "a choice" on her part, we would (and will) immediately seek a consult. Our communication with her is pretty open and healthy on this front.

I'm a little wary of the "well, let's see if meds help" mentality, though. Our family's gatekeeper for referrals is someone that we jokingly call "Doctor Feelgood" with good reason... basically, he has the fastest script pad in the West. Every time I see him, he asks me about depression or anxiety while he's reaching into his coat pocket with a gleam in his eye. (Apparently a sinus infection puts one at grave risk for clinical depression, or something...) I also forgot to add that he is completely clueless about giftedness and the issues associated with it. He regards DD with a bizarre kind of bemused curiosity, like he isn't really sure what to make of her. (Her specialist physician is much more at ease around her and simply accepts her the way she is-- I can recall HIM explaining to my then 3yo how his stethescope worked.) Anyway.

That's not something I want to do, for reasons of my own related to an understanding of the pharmacology of those drugs (which I'd venture to say is superior to our physician's, if it comes to that).

Caffeine definitely does NOT help her in terms of executive function, and it often does behave paradoxically if the issues are truly chemical in origin.

I think your dd is in a very good place that you seem to get her so well, and that you do have such an open relationship and that she is able to be open about her feelings.

I totally agree with you about the meds--and am thankful that dd9 appears to take after her stereotypically German, detail-oriented, def. not adhd father (unfortunately perfectionism is still a driving force though for him and her). But we are now facing this challenge of adhd or not with my ds7, who has Down syndrome. So different ends of the spectrum, but same issues--what is causing the behaviour? Is it being in the tail of the bell curve (although my son really isn't the tail, just pretty far left)--and how to tell if it is really adhd.

I know that I could get meds for him tomorrow from the ped., but we are trying to make the most informed decision and can't get into the specialist whose opinion I respect the most until May.

Re: meds--anecdotally, fwiw--they def. make a difference for me. When I remember to take them!;) But it is an entirely different case to try to decide to give them (or withhold them from) to a growing child.

Oh--and for me re: the choice thing--when I was 11 I (very defiantly) *chose* not to do my pointless reading work and my parents got called in for a conference with the reading teacher(which resulted in...nothing. Could have been a chance for acceleration or differentiation or SOMETHING!)

When I was 17 and in AP English and just.couldn't get started on the 3 page papers we had to write each week (but then did a whole 1/4s worth in one weekend) it wasn't a choice. It was different.

"When I was 17 and in AP English and just.couldn't get started on the 3 page papers we had to write each week (but then did a whole 1/4s worth in one weekend) it wasn't a choice. It was different." That's my DD to a T!!!!


Deacongirl, if you don't mind my asking, at what age did you start taking ADHD meds? Are they such that a person could just take them when a big paper is assigned and then just deal with other coping strategies without meds the rest of the time?

If so, I think that might be a possible compromise for my dd, since writing with a deadline seems to be her biggest obstacle. I think that occasional as-needed type use would be a much more more acceptable risk weighing her need to function to meet deadlines with her medical risk. I just wouldn't want her taking them daily given heart problems in the family.

<donning pharmacologist hat>

Now, before I say any of this-- I'm not for even an instant suggesting that it is wrong to medicate persons with ADHD/ADD so that they can function more normally-- they really help some people, and I understand that. I just think they are perhaps not sufficiently respected by clinicians as the potent drugs that they are. This should never be a casual decision, IMO.

It is also posited by some (mostly those without background in the molecular side of this) that ADHD subjects may not respond to the drugs in the same way that neurotypical persons do (meaning that the two factors I mention are thought to be untrue for them)-- but from a molecular/neurochemical standpoint, that seems farfetched to me.

Nik, I really urge you to speak to someone with genuine expertise in neuropharmacology and cardiac pharmacology who knows your family's medical history. A genetic quirk at the receptor level might lead to dangerous idiosyncratic responses to stimulant drugs that a neuropharmacologist might not consider. (I only mention that because I have some background in BOTH of the subdisciplines involved-- and cross-training, particularly in physicians in these disciplines, is unusual.)

One thing to bear in mind with psychotropic drugs in this class (that is, SSRI's and stimulants that are intended to operate in the biogenic amine system) is that they alter the kinetics of the neurotransmitter system.

There are two important sequelae of that fact clinically:

a) these drugs as a class may produce potentiation with habituation-- that is, the system responds in an exaggerated manner to additional doses of the drug once it has been withdrawn for a period of time. (This is a contributing factor in cardiac fatalities that are so well-known in stimulant-addicted persons who fall off the wagon after detoxing-- they are sensitized to the effects of the drug and a previously safe dose results in an overdose-- this is most frequently seen with the tropanes like cocaine, but I don't know whether it has been sufficiently investigated with the amphetamine or SSRI class.)

b) because they alter the baseline kinetics of neurotransmitter signalling, (reducing post-synaptic clearance times), use may result in INCREASED clearances when unmedicated, relative to naive control subjects. In other words, while drugs in this class do not induce "physical dependence" the way opiates do, it is extremely clear that neuropharmacologically, there is most certainly dependence.

This alteration is apparently permanent, incidentally, which is why I am often horrified at how cavalierly clinicians offer to "try" these drugs as a means of differential diagnosis in children or adults suspected of 'maybe' being depressed.


The latter is why I think that probably "occasional" use of ADHD meds could just make 'unmedicated' periods worse than before, and the former would lead me to have very serious concerns in someone who had underlying cardiac risk factors.

HTH. Of course, this isn't medical advice-- I'm pointing out why I'd want input from someone with expertise in cardiac pharmaclogy before going that route.

<taking off pharmacologist hat>
______________________

It's also interesting to me to note that my DD's problem is writing (or doing anything else) without a deadline. Maybe that says something about underlying causation, and maybe it doesn't mean a thing. But it is a remarkable contrast.

Wow, thanks HK, that sort of thing is exactly what I was afraid of. I will definitely try to find the right professional to answer these questions for my DD before considering meds. my uncle is a heart surgeon, maybe he can point me in the right direction. I really want her to try the fish oil pills, but I fear even if those work, she will forget to take them once she is off at college.

Re; deadlines, my DD has trouble writing on what she calls "stupid promts" for things like the SAT writing test but she can sometimes knock out excellent 7-8 page papers at one sitting on the morning they are due. She says she needs to work it all out in her head first. She refused to ever do pre-writing or drafts, so when a paper does come to her complete in her head, it either happens just hours/minutes before it is to be submitted or more often, after the deadline. I don't think it has ever occurred ahead of a deadline. She seems to have no control over expediting the "workings" in the head that eventually produce good work but often too late.

Back again on the same topic.....

We received a note from DS7's teacher asking to meet with us. She said that she thinks DS7 finds it to be too hard on him to get his work done, and that he just sits instead of doing it. She also said he's the only one who is being given differentiated Language Arts work who can't finish it.

We had him tested a couple weeks ago, and are due to meet with the psych tomorrow to go over her findings. I filled out an ADD assessment at her request, but in retrospect since I suspect I may likely be somewhat ADD myself, I may have been a poor choice to fill it out. His behavior doesn't seem odd to me, but maybe my baseline for odd isn't standard. We elected not to have the teacher involved at this point, mostly because I don't get that warm fuzzy IYKWIM.

I asked DS7 why he's unable to finish his differentiated work, and he told me that before he gets that, he has to finish his rather hefty regular language arts packet. Since he rarely finishes that, as I described in the original post, he has no time to work on the other. Apparently, the other kids aren't having this problem.

Any suggestions for how to politely request that he be able to test out of these packets?

I think it is possible that DS may suffer from mild ADD, or that it's masked to some degree by GT'ness. But it seems to me like IF that is the case, he shouldn't need to be medicated at 7yo, if the only real issue is that he can't focus on inappropriately challenging work.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. (Be gentle -- it's been a rough couple months. Nothing bad, just too many little things piling up.) Thanks for being here.

Thank you for sharing your experience...I think your first sentence is so true. I can't help wondering the difference it would have made for myself and even more so my brother if we had been advocated for in the way parents here do. (I know my mother did the best she could with the information she had at the time...)

And I'm also thinking that is why it takes me all day to unload the dishwasher now...

We did talk to the psych about it. She said she doesn't see enough indicators for it to be ADHD. She thinks that DS's inability to focus likely is because the work is too easy (like DS said). The worksheets at issue are at grade level in the same area of DS's greatest demonstrated strength on WJ-III (>99%). In her report, the pscyh is recommending that DS be allowed to test out of them, or use the results from his achievement test as evidence that he has tested out.

We are supposed to meet with the teacher soon. Hopefully, I can convey things in a productive way. I know she's really trying, and that she's frustrated with DS. Fingers are crossed.

I did see that last week. Made me wonder a lot about me.