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Posted By: Val Homework - 09/10/09 05:05 AM
I have a question (or set of questions) about the amount of homework handed out in most or nearly all schools today:

Am I the only one who thinks that schools are going way overboard on the homework thing?

I mean, do seven-year-olds really need to do homework? Shouldn't they just be running around and having fun after school? Don't they need a chance to process what happened all day?

School is long and tiring and I don't see why kids need to keep working after they've already been sitting still and working for six or seven hours. What are they doing in school all day that they have to work more at home? If they were learning concepts properly and getting practice in class, should they really need extra work? Especially if classes were ability grouped?

It seems to me that placing crushingly huge homework loads on kids (or giving any at all in the lowest grades) deprives them of a chance to play, stifles creativity, and, in a way, turns them into small versions of workaholic adults. I also have concerns about the effects of too much work on brain development.

I realize that some homework is necessary in high school (but not the 2-3 hours/day stuff I hear about from friends). Maybe a little in 7th and 8th grades. Sometimes. Before that, I'm not convinced.

Val
Posted By: Kriston Re: Homework - 09/10/09 05:09 AM
Me neither.
Posted By: OHGrandma Re: Homework - 09/10/09 05:25 AM
GS10 is in the 5th grade. This is the first year he's had homework on any regular basis. It takes him 5 minutes, and he's done. His math teacher is assigning a paper and specifically tells the kids they can't do it at school.
I've heard complaints for the last 5 years from people who say their kids get too much homework from the same teacher/school.
At this point I am glad he has a teacher who is specifically assigning homework. GS needs to learn a little more responsibility for doing it, and turning it in on a consistant basis.

I do think if an elementary aged child has more than 15-30 minutes on a regular basis, talk to the teacher!
Posted By: Belle Re: Homework - 09/10/09 05:26 AM
Gotta agree...I remember reading somewhere online where a group of parents actually led a rally against a school board concerning homework. They stated the exact same things as Val in their arguments and if I remember correctly, they actually made an impact and homework became something like optional or there was a huge decrease - I can't remember.
Posted By: BKD Re: Homework - 09/10/09 05:31 AM
If DS7 did all his Gr1 homework it would take around 20 minutes each day, and DS5 only around 5 minutes (he only gets readers). It might not sound like a lot, but it really feels that way to small boys, and the busy mother who has to make time for it after work/school but before dinner.

I agree with you - I don't think it should be a regular burden for such young children. And it's so very repetitive - the teacher has explained that it's about "consolidation." I think it tends to reinforce the message that school is about uninspiring routine.

And I alway ignore the "homework" involving making beds, helping with chores etc. I find it an inappropriate intrusion into home life. It seems pretty common around here though.
Posted By: OHGrandma Re: Homework - 09/10/09 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by BKD
...
And I alway ignore the "homework" involving making beds, helping with chores etc. I find it an inappropriate intrusion into home life. It seems pretty common around here though.


What?! I'd really be raising a fuss with that! It is not the schools business to tell me what a child should or should not do to help the family.
Posted By: Val Re: Homework - 09/10/09 05:49 AM
Originally Posted by BKD
And it's so very repetitive - the teacher has explained that it's about "consolidation." I think it tends to reinforce the message that school is about uninspiring routine.

Agreed.

Kids who are ability grouped and who are moving at an appropriate pace in school shouldn't need extra uninspiring work (unless we want to kill any love of learning that they have).

Val
Posted By: BKD Re: Homework - 09/10/09 05:57 AM
Quote
I'd really be raising a fuss with that!
I'd like to, but I'm trying not to let my reputation as a difficult parent get out of hand.
Posted By: ColinsMum Re: Homework - 09/10/09 06:57 AM
There's quite a book industry against homework - there's The Homework Myth by Kohn and then The Case Against Homework has draft letters to write and such to get things changed. Might be worth a try, anyone upset about this! DS5's school does not set (compulsory, written) homework by policy, for which we are very grateful.
Posted By: JJsMom Re: Homework - 09/10/09 02:00 PM
I don't mind a little homework here and there, but I do mind the QUALITY of it. DS's teacher does give him challenging things - usually taking less than 15 minutes for him to complete. But, the other kids get coloring worksheets and whatnot. To me, giving homework just to give homework makes no sense. DS is only in K, so it's really not necessary at all yet.

BUT, I think homework is important for older kids because once they get into college, they will have to manage their time outside the classroom to get assignments completed.
Posted By: CAMom Re: Homework - 09/10/09 02:50 PM
Yep, I was going to suggest The Homework Myth to confirm that really, no kids need homework.

In my humble opinion, homework is designed to make sure the parents know that the kid is doing something at school and to demonstrate progress to parents. DS has homework every day and it takes him 15 min to do, plus his required and documented 20 min of reading every day. We do it but I disregard a lot of the individual assignments and make them better and more fun.
Posted By: twomoose Re: Homework - 09/10/09 03:02 PM
Here's an interesting bit of research I found while googling, and supports JJsMom's point - the right amount and the right kind of homework can be beneficial.

http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2006/03/homework.html

My DD in middle school routinely has 3 hours plus of homework almost every night. She's hardly doing anything but homework during the week. DS in 1st grade gets about 30 minutes, most of it so far not really worthwhile. He's frustrated at the lack of challenge, but so far, not refusing to do it. So, needless to say, we spend most evenings planning, doing and checking homework. Fun, fun smile
Posted By: Elisa Re: Homework - 09/10/09 03:22 PM
My DS8 refused to do homework in first grade and I had to really think about how I felt about it. I decided that I like the values that homework teaches: hard work, responsibility. And I did not want to set a precedent for slacking off in middle school,high school. I worked with his teacher to make it more challenging and interesting. His school actually calls it practice work and I agree you get better by practicing. However, I am ever vigilant to make sure that the kids' homework is at the right level for them. (My cover has already been blown so I'm free to speak up any time.) With things like practicing math facts, we add challenge by doing them fast. My daughter just started high school and she has a couple of hours of homework a night. It doesn't matter if it's too easy, too hard, boring, stupid or crazy, she gets it done.
Posted By: JDAx3 Re: Homework - 09/10/09 04:27 PM
I've been 'protesting' homework since DS started school....to myself anyway. It was always pitifully redundant and I didn't see that he learned anything from it, other than it took away from his playtime.

The only thing I don't mind so much now is the handwriting aspect of it. Only because DSs writing could use some practice and I can see where it's not feasible to have him really practice for say 30 min to an hour in the classroom - there are other things he could be learning. I consider the 'write your spelling words 3 times in cursive' task a handwriting assignment and not spelling since DS doesn't/didn't learn to spell that way.
Posted By: onthegomom Re: Homework - 09/10/09 04:45 PM
My dd6 started doing HW in K. It took about 5 to 10 mins. She got very tired of coloring and practicing her handwriting after school. I spoke with her teacher about it and she said she was doing much more than she needed to do. My DD is a little perfectionist. She would completely color everything when a little coloring was ok and she would erase her letters several times until she was satisfied. Once I told her what the teacher said it made a big difference in he HW attitude and took some of the pressure off. It seems sad, she put this pressure on her self in K. I was glad I talked to the teacher because I would think lots of Moms might just think oh well she just doesn't like it, that's how school goes sometimes.

My DS9 gets HW that is suppose to take 30 mins but his does it in 10. I am glad I see and do some HW with him because it lets me feel like I know more about how he is doing in school. The school feels this parental involvement is very important to the kids success. I've heard other parents complain about the HW and how hard it is for their kids and what is suppose to be 30 mins turns into a dreaded occasion.

Our school has a NO HW on Friday policy. I do love that because it makes play dates easier.
Posted By: Nautigal Re: Homework - 09/11/09 03:08 AM
Our school district has a policy that homework should be 10 minutes per grade--so a first grader should have 10 minutes, and a 3rd grader should have 30 minutes, and so on. Or no more than that, at least. By that logic, a senior in high school should have two hours of homework. This seems reasonable to me, insofar as homework is necessary at all. They seem to give homework every night except Fridays--at least some little thing to do, no matter what it is. No homework on weekends, at least so far.

We ignored a lot of the homework in first grade, with the teacher's blessing--I'm not going to have him sitting around coloring or working on two-letter spelling words. This year I'll probably just give him extra things to do if there's nothing worthwhile.
Posted By: Nan Re: Homework - 09/11/09 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Nautigal
We ignored a lot of the homework in first grade, with the teacher's blessing--I'm not going to have him sitting around coloring or working on two-letter spelling words. This year I'll probably just give him extra things to do if there's nothing worthwhile.

This is the type of homework I worry about. I'm glad you've gotten the teacher's blessing to ignore it!

I agree that by middle school or high school some homework is appropriate, and I wouldn't protest about a small amount in the late elementary grades. However, I live in fear of the day when DS (now grade 1) starts bringing home busywork homework. I think I'll take the approach another parent on this board has and substitute more appropriate work. I just do not see the point of making a child who spells quite well practice a typical grade-one spelling list of words he's known for years!
Posted By: marieg Re: Homework - 09/12/09 09:14 PM
Homework in 6th grade takes my DYS two hours per night. It is HARD homework. Ceasar's English (latin roots), 40 problems of math (not her favorite) and social studies that *I* found challenging.

She used to breeze through homework in 15 minutes in 4th grade (like the two or three sheets tops she'd get) but now she has to really *work.*

I wish it wasn't so much but I also think she's finally learning to study, work and have to think hard about things. Skipping 5th grade I was freaking about this to be honest. It got really challenging really quickly (and not everything was an automatic 100% every time!) but I think in some ways that is a good thing. When you get 5/10 on an assignment because you blew through the homework and didn't really READ the instructions is a mistake she has remembered!

Posted By: Val Re: Homework - 09/13/09 07:37 AM
Originally Posted by ColinsMum
There's quite a book industry against homework - there's The Homework Myth by Kohn and then The Case Against Homework has draft letters to write and such to get things changed. Might be worth a try, anyone upset about this! DS5's school does not set (compulsory, written) homework by policy, for which we are very grateful.

I picked up a copy of The Homework Myth today. Thanks for the tip.

Val
Posted By: Dandy Re: Homework - 09/13/09 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by marieg
When you get 5/10 on an assignment because you blew through the homework and didn't really READ the instructions is a mistake she has remembered!
If some creative teacher can find a way to teach our son to slow down just a tiny bit -- and pay attention to details, instructions, etc -- he'll be unstoppable. "Going too quickly" really is his only problem in school right now, and is the only thing negatively affecting his grades.

He's seen the pinch on a few quizzes and reading tests... and says that he agrees he needs to slow down... but ZIP! ZAM! ZOOM! he continues to go at his own breakneck speed.

On the rare occasion I can get him to slow down ever-so-slightly, his quality and accuracy go through the roof. I just haven't figured out a way to get him to hit the brakes.
Posted By: sittin pretty Re: Homework - 09/13/09 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Dandy
[quote=marieg]On the rare occasion I can get him to slow down ever-so-slightly, his quality and accuracy go through the roof. I just haven't figured out a way to get him to hit the brakes.


I've read (although haven't tried it) that manipulatives, like a stress ball or silly putty, can help with kids flying through things. The theory behind it is that by unconsciously diverting some of their mental energy to the manipulative, they are forced to channel the remaining mental energy to the schoolwork, directions, etc. (Sort of slows them down to "normal" levels of brain power)

Of course, your DS may need to juggle flaming batons in order to reach "normal" levels of brain power. laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: Dandy Re: Homework - 09/13/09 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by master of none
Exercise, exercise, exercise.
Her problem is too much physical energy that keeps her from mentally focusing. I don't know if it would work for you. Sounds like your problem is too much mental energy.
He's pretty active at school & at home, so his physical energy seems relatively balanced (thankfully!). But teaching him to throttle back his mind. Aughhh -- that's the real challenge.

The teachers all say that he's just going to have to experience the sting of low scores a few times to figure it out.

ALEKS has been a help to some degree because he knows that if he takes his time and answers carefully, he'll not have to do as many problems to get through a section. Hasn't carried over to his other work, though.
Posted By: Dandy Re: Homework - 09/13/09 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by sittin pretty
Of course, your DS may need to juggle flaming batons in order to reach "normal" levels of brain power. laugh laugh laugh
Maybe juggling flaming batons WHILE treading water?? That'd be quite the diversion.
Posted By: Mommy2myEm Re: Homework - 09/13/09 11:18 PM
Our district follows the 10 per grade rule and sometimes parents remind teachers of it (before state testing). DD10 is in first year of middle school. Her study hall is right after 4 core subjects and she does most of her homework then. She saves big projects for home, which we can do over several days. Last year she would do upto 2 hours of homework, which makes me wonder if middle school is going to be easier? Not only does she come home earlier, but we are not stretching homework into dinner time, which works better for all of us:)

Jen
Posted By: Val Re: Homework - 09/14/09 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Dandy
If some creative teacher can find a way to teach our son to slow down just a tiny bit -- and pay attention to details, instructions, etc -- he'll be unstoppable. "Going too quickly" really is his only problem in school right now, and is the only thing negatively affecting his grades.

My DS9 has the same problem. We were going through math yesterday and I read a few of the posts in this thread to him. I told him that the forum is run by the Davidson Institute. The immediate effect was that his face lit up when he saw that smart kids can have this problem. He had been complaining of being "stupid" on occasion before that.

I also thought about how to help him increase his accuracy. I realized that I've always emphasized the need to "check your work!" but never gave specific advice about how to do this, apart from re-working the problem. Of course, this approach can just lead him to make the same mistakes.

So I deconstructed the process and gave him these pieces of advice, based on his biggest problems:

1. For order of operations, use braces to show which parts of the problem you do first/have done. This will help you keep track of things.

2. Always simplify fractions.

3. THE LAST THING YOU NEED TO DO is to check signs.

His accuracy went up immediately! The task didn't seem as overwhelming to him either.

Val





Posted By: onthegomom Re: Homework - 09/14/09 05:03 PM
we have had some check your work issues. I brought this up with DS9's teacher last year and she quizzed him on procedure. He knew the procedure but just went too fast and didn't check work carefully. Teacher had a talk with him as did I about he needs to show what he knows. This may of helped some but not completely. I think he just got so stressed and disengaged at school that he just couldn't keep the focus. Last year was not challenging enough. He has incredible focus when he is stimulated enough and not stressed.

So far this year, no problems with checking. I'm praying this contiues. This problem doesn't help much except to know there are more kids in similar situation.

Someone here suggested "Mental Math" book for checking work. I haven't tried it for this but sound like agood way of making something too simple feel more challenging.
Posted By: Austin Re: Homework - 09/14/09 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Dandy
On the rare occasion I can get him to slow down ever-so-slightly, his quality and accuracy go through the roof. I just haven't figured out a way to get him to hit the brakes.

Have him imagine that one day he will design an airplane or a giant skyscraper. What would happen if he makes an error in his calculations or assumptions?

At some point in his life, he will assume a great deal of responsibility and in order to be ready, he needs to have a lot of practice at checking his work and generally being careful.

Speed should be used to give yourself time to check your work on key things IF there is a time crunch!

--

As for home work, there are lots of guides on studying.

But, what I like to do for technical stuff is to:

1. Read the chapter, taking notes.
2. Make flash cards of all theorems and example problems.
3. Memorize those in 2.
4. Do the assigned problems.
5. Do all the problems - omitting the trivial ones.
6. Add cards from 2 to my stack for the class and carry around for 5 minute power sessions.

7. When finals approach:

a. Go through notes from 1 and consolidate.
b. Do randomly selected problems all over again- omitting the easy ones.
c. Do hard problems for speed.
d. Review problems solved 30 min before test.

8. When the class is over with, move notes from 7a into an "archive" notebook for future reference.

If you have time, you can get another book on the subject and work the harder problems in it.

The same can be adapted to humanities type classes. Problem solving is replaced by synopsis of the read passages. I try to totally memorize key passages if doing lit.

If you are reasonably bright, you should be able to do the final with a 100% every time given the above preparation. The speed drill is there to give you time for either very hard problems OR time to check your work.





Posted By: Val Re: Homework - 09/14/09 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Austin
Have him imagine that one day he will design an airplane or a giant skyscraper. What would happen if he makes an error in his calculations or assumptions?

I did this with DS9 yesterday, using a bridge as an example. The question was for him to imagine a bridge that might have to hold a thousand stopped cars weighing xxx kg if there was a traffic jam or some other problem on the far side of it.

Me: "What would happen if the engineer made a mistake in his calculations regarding how to make the bridge?"

<pause>

DS9: "It might collapse."

This example got him thinking.

Val
Posted By: Dandy Re: Homework - 09/15/09 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Austin
Originally Posted by Dandy
On the rare occasion I can get him to slow down ever-so-slightly, his quality and accuracy go through the roof. I just haven't figured out a way to get him to hit the brakes.
Have him imagine that one day he will design an airplane or a giant skyscraper. What would happen if he makes an error in his calculations or assumptions?
We will have this conversation tonight.

Nearly every mistake so far this year (only 3 weeks, but lots of work) has been due to carelessness. Frustrating.

I told him that while we do not expect perfection, we expect him to at least take his time and show that he cares about the quality of his work.
Posted By: Nautigal Re: Homework - 09/15/09 02:07 AM
Quote
forced to revise writing when he's pretty sure he got it right the first time! grin


LOL! That's a problem I have always had--if it were wrong, I wouldn't have written it the first time! I've never been good at editing my own work for that reason. Of course, I'm obsessive about editing anyone else's work. smile

I always did the outline and rough draft after I was done with the paper....

Posted By: Val Re: Homework - 09/15/09 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by gratified3
I suspect that this will be an ongoing process for this kid all through school as his natural pace is speedy and he resents and resists slowing down.

I describe myself as not having a slow setting.

As for DS9, I think the carelessness is partially a function of age. I'm trying to give him specific suggestions that will help him slow down (see my last post in this thread) such as "Check signs as the last thing!" I hope this approach will slow him down without revealing that it's slowing him down, if you see what I mean....

Val
Posted By: Dandy Re: Homework - 09/15/09 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by gratified3
Originally Posted by Dandy
Nearly every mistake so far this year (only 3 weeks, but lots of work) has been due to carelessness. Frustrating.
I have a kid who is, by nature, way, way speedy. It's almost painful for him to slow himself down...
I think we could switch kids and not know the difference.

Tonight he was practicing a new scale on the piano. Naturally, he attacks it with the same top speed he uses for scales he already knows -- with the expected noisy results.

"Okay, son... if you just slow it down -- even a teeny, tiny bit -- you'll play it through without mistakes and you'll be done with that scale for tonight."

"OK."

!ZOOM! (Cacophony of errors; cats dancing on the piano, etc...)

"Son... IF YOU WILL JUST SLOW IT DOWN..."

!ZOOM! (Cacophony redux ...)

"SON!!! SLOW DOWN! ..."

!ZOOM! (Ditto...)

Ad nauseum.

And either he relents, slows down & nails it... or he gets just enough practice through the above iterations... and nails it anyhow (accompanied by a very smug "Neener-neener!" on his face).

Every once in awhile, when he's not really paying attention, he accidentally slows down and is done with a given section on the 1st or 2nd attempt. When I try to point out what just occurred -- and how it might be in his best interest to duplicate this approach -- he looks at me like I'm a talking dog or something. Drives me up the flipping wall.

To his much-deserved credit, he's really improved his patience when it comes to tearing apart a new song section by section, measure by measure. Without exaggeration, it nearly brings a tear to my eye watching him methodically work through difficult passages with determination I previously thought to be impossible.

So maybe there's hope for the Speedy Gonzales gene, too.
Posted By: JJsMom Re: Homework - 09/15/09 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Nautigal
I always did the outline and rough draft after I was done with the paper....

Ha! Me too.
Posted By: Austin Re: Homework - 09/15/09 07:56 PM

Try this from my Army days:


Slow is Smooth.

Smooth is Fast.

This comment:

The "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" saying has its origins in the military. With that context the meaning is fairly obvious: moving fast, or rushing it, is reckless and will likely get you killed. If you move slowly, carefully and deliberate however, you are really moving as fast as you can without needlessly increasing the risk on your life. (Or that you will get it wrong.)

Posted By: Val Re: Homework - 09/15/09 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Austin
Try this from my Army days:


Slow is Smooth.

Smooth is Fast.

An equivalent statement applies to getting from point A to point B when you aren't familiar with the terrain:

"The long way is usually the quick way."

Val
Posted By: Isa Re: Homework - 09/15/09 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Val
Originally Posted by Austin
Try this from my Army days:


Slow is Smooth.

Smooth is Fast.

An equivalent statement applies to getting from point A to point B when you aren't familiar with the terrain:

"The long way is usually the quick way."

Val

In Spanish, we have to similar statements:

'Cuando el Rey tiene prisa, le dice a su mayordomo: Visteme despacio que tengo prisa'
= 'When the King is in a hurry, he says to his majordomo: Dress me slowly that I am in a hurry.'

and

'No hay atajo sin trabajo.' = 'There is no short-cut without (extra/hard) work'.


About homework: I live in The Netherlands and kids here do not get any homework until they are 10 and then it is just once or twice in a while.

At earlier ages the most they get is a recommendation for parents to practice a little at home.

I personally like that.

In secondary school they get quite some homework though but I do not have yet direct experience.
Posted By: Breakaway4 Re: Homework - 09/16/09 07:27 PM
Well Dandy if you ever figure it out let me know as well! I hear the same thing every year from every teacher...he needs to slow down, he rushes, he makes silly mistakes. The worse thing is that the school/teacher often takes it as a sign that he needs to work on the basics...AGH!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Grinity Re: Homework - 09/16/09 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by marieg
It got really challenging really quickly (and not everything was an automatic 100% every time!) but I think in some ways that is a good thing. When you get 5/10 on an assignment because you blew through the homework and didn't really READ the instructions is a mistake she has remembered!
And way better to learn this lesson in middle school where the grades don't 'really' count than in High School or College!

LOL - I just read ahead and saw your post about Aleks!
Over the years, I would say that it has generalized somewhat, as long as we keep DS within his 'readiness level' - if the work drops below it, then forgettaboutit. Also, DS13 now has external motivators - like the desire to get into a fancy collge even though his mom thinks the local State University is just as good, and a much better value - that are making DS really generalize that lesson throughout his schoolwork. Personal mentors and favorite teachers that your child wants to impress might be a different external motivator.

Smiles,
Grinity

Still ((hugs)) it's a tough transition!
Grinity
Posted By: Grinity Re: Homework - 09/16/09 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by Dandy
[If some creative teacher can find a way to teach our son to slow down just a tiny bit -- and pay attention to details, instructions, etc -- he'll be unstoppable. .. I just haven't figured out a way to get him to hit the brakes.

Aleks.com got the message through to my DS for the first time...3 practice problems if you get them perfect, 10 if you make a silly error!

Smiles,
Grinity
Posted By: Dandy Re: Homework - 09/17/09 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by Grinity
Originally Posted by Dandy
[If some creative teacher can find a way to teach our son to slow down just a tiny bit -- and pay attention to details, instructions, etc -- he'll be unstoppable. .. I just haven't figured out a way to get him to hit the brakes.
Aleks.com got the message through to my DS for the first time...3 practice problems if you get them perfect, 10 if you make a silly error!

Yes! Aleks.com is the best "teacher" in that regard, and DS magically discovered he could get done more quickly... by *gasp!* slowing down a little.

If only ALEKS taught language arts, or some of the other drudgery that results in 20-30 "problems" of an identical nature. Last year's teacher finally let me pare down the number of worksheet problems based on my guess as to how many DS really needed. Will definitely be approaching this teacher soon.
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