I'm looking for any books that can help me understand the achievement vs intelligence gap that occurs with some children. It seems like most the books on child development, gifted children discuss issues that occur when IQ is greater than achievement. Yet,I'm actually looking for information on the reverse situation (i.e. IQ < achievement). I have seen a couple of books that address that this does happen but not in detail nor any theory as to why. I appreciate any resources that you can suggest!

Gladwell's "Outliers" is an interesting read. His thesis is that its an environment that rewards hard work. The section on schools that cater to inner city kids may be what you are looking for.

I like this book a lot:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Surgeons-Performance-Atul-Gawande/dp/0312427654/ref=pd_sim_b_1

The section on Surgeons in India is very interesting because they have no resources, yet do astonishing things.

IMHO, people rise very far when they are constantly placed in very challenging situations that almost (but not) overwhelm them with mentors who can listen to them and guide them and who they listen to.

The book �Smart Boys� by Barbara A. Kerr, Ph.D. and Sanford J. Cohn, Ph.D. has a short section that addresses causes of �overachievement� which they define as when a child�s academic performance is higher than that predicted by psychological tests.

The two main categories are;

1. The Student has test Anxiety (Self explanatory)

2. The Student is Benefiting from a Reputation or Halo Effect
This could be caused by older siblings, family reputation or high interpersonal skills.

I agree with Eema on this one, some kids just don't test well. I think that IQ tests are useful when show that a child IS gifted, but I don't think that they are reliable enough to PROVE that a child isn't gifted.

In the end, I see gifted as a child having special educational needs that are unlikely to be met in her neighborhood school without substantial modification.

I think that achievement is a very different thing than high IQ. High achievement can occur with a hard working person once the range of IQ gets into the 120s. If that person is also very creative, then unquie high achievement can certianly start in the 120s of IQ. Take a look at Dr. Deb Ruf's 'Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children left behind' and there is a list of very important and successful achievers with 120 and up IQs in the back.

IQ and success in life are generally related when you look at large groups of people, but for any individual, there is quite a range.

In the end, if you really want to know if your child is 'gifted' IQ wise, let him have a chance to do academics a few years ahead of himself. If he still rises to the top of the class, then you can assume he's gifted and just not testing well for whatever reason. If he is wearing himself out or not performing well, then you still don't know for sure, but you have another datapoint.

I hope that helps!
Grinity

I third that! A lot more than intelligence goes into achievement.

[quote=Austin]
Gladwell's "Outliers" is an interesting read.

I love this book and would love to discuss it with someone who has read it.

Ellipses - here's a thread from this forum on Outliers:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/34681/1.html

Thanks St. Pauli!

I began working directly after college in 1982. I have seen such a change in work ethics since then. More often, students from Asia were the employees moving up in the work force. I have become close with them and we talked about backgrounds. Their attitudes are very different than ours. I have applied many of their attitudes and ideas to raising my daughter and it has helped. My white American friends raise their children quite differently and their children have not turned out as well. I have seen so many highly gifted kids who are doing nothing or worse.

Ellipses, what do you see as the key differences between Asian parents and what they are doing and American parents?

I was one of those not great test takers, ok I am not gifted LOL. But school came easy for me, I hardly studied have an MA. But I didn't even break a 1000 on the SATs. I just hated tests like that. But if I knew what I needed to study then I would do great. So am I naturally smart eh I would say no, but if I know what to study I will do great. So IQ tests are not the end all and be all.

Yes, please tell us what you see yourself doing differently. I'm intrigued!

I am curious about the differences as well.
My daughter found the cartoon last summer about the two ball players. One is American and one is from China.
The American child says:
In my school I get summer off so I can hang out for almost three whole months.
The other child says:
In China, I go six days a week, all year long.
American:
WOW! What are you gonna be when you grow up?
Other:
Your boss.

I don't follow a traditional school schedule in our house and my kids tend to demand a more math and science curriculum.

My husband and I once worked with a man whose daughter was highly gifted. The girl's dad told us her SAT score and it was very close to what my husband's son from a previous marriage made. We were curious about the girl because my husband's older son is also highly gifted but had problems in school, found it boring, and decided to take the GED instead of finishing high school. He could make very high scores on tests without trying but for some reason wouldn't do what was required to finish community college classes and dropped out of that too. He was very good with computers and was usually able to get jobs when he wanted to work but he had absolutely no work ethic and would sometimes go months without working and stay on his computer most of the time. When he did work he could find jobs that paid very well even without the degree but then quit because he didn't like dealing with office politics. He's 34 years old and now that he has worked at a convenience store for the last year and a half he wishes he had worked a little harder.

My husband and I asked our friend how he was able to instill such a good work ethic in his daughter. He said it wasn't anything he did but his Asian wife worked with her after school and maybe that had something to do with it. I remember thinking that was kind of sad that the poor girl went to school all day and had to spend hours doing more school work just to please her mother. That poor girl is now a doctor.

So here I am trying to homeschool a 10 year old who already knows more than I do about so many things. The older he gets the more he reminds me of his adult brother. He wants to stay on the computer more than he should. When I say something about it he points out all the things he has learned from the internet and he does tend to do things that could be considered educational. I have trouble limiting his time on it because I know he has learned so much more than I knew at his age. When his adult sister has trouble doing something on the computer, she has to call her 10 year old little brother walk her through it and I can see that this might be a useful job skill. If something doesn't work the way it should he is on the internet to find out why and how to fix the problem. He rarely buys anything without checking online reviews and making sure the item is exactly what he wants. He increases his typing speed by using the computer, another job skill.

I sometimes feel like I am being really mean when I make him practice handwriting and piano and things to help develop motor skills and speed when he would rather work on something on the computer, but I often think of my friend's daughter with the Asian mother who had to work so hard after school but is now living a better life because of her cruel mother.

Is the time spend on the computer used wisely or is it used as entertainment? How do you know the difference?

I think it depends on whether they are productive or not on the computer. The Japanese have a name for kids who are no longer productive - Hikikomori.

I spend upwards of 18 hours a day on my computers starting when I was 13. But I also had other interests that I pursued including sports, girls, friends, clubs, etc.

It exists in all societies.

http://davidpurcell.blogspot.com/2007/10/hikikomori-japanese-educational-system.html

I really regret some things that I did not do at that age that I could have - due mostly to our financial situation - such as piano lessons, guitar, etc - as well as an even broader and more formal education involving travel. I was fortunate that my mom had a lot of Liberal Arts books around on history, politics, culture - including the some very challenging non-fiction books of the day - and she loved Jazz - which gave me entry into non-scientific ideas.

If I had to do it all over again, I'd put myself in a rigorous program that had both a classics side (Greek/Roman/Chinese/Japanese) plus the Mathy side. Once that foundation was laid, then around 10 introduce computers and other fields and allow greater freedom to explore since the discipline and broad base is there.

The big problem with learning from the internet is that most of the world's ideas are not online nor do you learn from interacting with an expert. The facts are superficial and the answers are canned. Its one thing to figure out how to get a short cut to using a software package or fixing a bug, but its another thing to grasp the cruelty of the Athenians or the beauty of Hilbert Spaces. Its very easy to search for a fix than to struggle with coming up with it on your own.

The knowledge gained from the internet is mostly very, very fragile unless its backed up with some very hard work offline learning the details and the problems in the field and the limits of the tools they are working with.

Those who get very good at searching it or doing the quick fix have very little depth in the fundamentals and get found out catastrophically. Nor can they handle being unsure. It can be very humiliating for some of today's "internet generation" to get humbled in public by someone who learned all or most of their stuff offline. Its very easy to do.

They also tend to stick to what they know and what they know is very narrow - and as a result - their ideas are not that original at all - and usually too concrete. They also do not know what completed work or good code looks like - and that most bugs are the sign of a deeper issue.

How do you appeal to kids like this?

I suppose if you REALLY want to know something, you will pick up a book, learn it, correspond with the author, seek out thoughtful commentary, connect one work to another, find the unresolved issues, and learn to think abstractly.

If you cannot just walk away from the internet for a week and just read books, the there is a real issue.

There are a lot of typists, but very few original thinkers or problem solvers. Does he want to spend his life typing or coming up with the ideas that hundreds if not millions of people will work on?

A lot of it is the concentration on school and books and not on sports. Most students are expected to work on their homework. Also, parents are expected to make more decisions for their children based on their experience. Here, kids make many decisions for themselves. There, parents are expected to help choose their professions and their colleges.

I do see too many kids making decisions here without much data to go on. I guess this is a general lack of respect for age.

This thread came to mind when I read an article about three Chinese families struggling with the loss of their children.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/23/china.parents.ohio/index.html

Thanks! That was really interesting. I know that there is a lot of pressure in China where education is also tied with "love of country". And parents do whatever they can to educate, even if they cannot afford it.

Thanks. We really appreciate your reply. When we read what you said about Hikkomori, he said yes, but there is also Karoshi - death from overwork. I think he wants to find a comfortable place in between the two extremes where he still has time for video games.

He said he was really impressed with your 18 hours a day on the computer and the fact that you also had time for sports and girls, etc. He wants to know if you used any "Red Bull."

He likes the idea of doing liberal arts study and we have talked about maybe working on an online liberal arts degree in a few years and he wants to continue reading classic books.

He also said when you just read a book you are also getting some of the author's bias which is why he likes to read from multiple sources. He still thinks Wikipedia with all of the links to more info is a great resource.

The only time he was away from the computer for a week was when we went to Disney World and there were lots of things to keep him busy. It is much harder at home with no other kids in the neighborhood and nothing but cows down the road from us.

I am really glad you mentioned piano and guitar because I don't think he realizes how lucky he is to be able to do these things and I wish he would spend more time practicing.

I have always heard that music helps people deal with stress and he has been complaining that I have exposed him to too much second-hand stress which he says can be more harmful than second-hand smoke. He argues that being on the computer helps him deal with stress because it takes his mind off other things.

He is just ten and loves to debate with me. He is also entering puberty and I have a feeling his teenage years are going to be even more challenging for me than his sister's were.

You just go without sleep!!


Latin, Greek or Mandarin?

I'd also study the biographies of the first-rate minds of the last century - Feynman, Fermi, Neumann, Ghandi - who were happy in their lives and who achieved much in many fields.



Hehe.

Watch out for second hand information, too!!!

All he had to say about this was "I agree, you should."

I thought Gladwell was trying to identify several "outliers":

Clearly the 10,000 hrs idea -- you don't have to be the smartest but the hardest-working or most driven or most interested

Cultural differences -- these values are very strong and endure generations. I don't think it's simply "Asians work harder". Children who see their parents work hard whether it's in rice paddies or the garment industry and who involve their kids in it (rather than working hard and sheltering the next generation) and make it part of their value system/upbringing.

Opportunities - could be birth dates or pure luck (like availability of computer lab when Bill Gates was at the right school/right time).

Advantages - year round learning, summer programs, encouragement.

Not part of that book, but also of interest to me is how the internet/computer culture are killing some key skills: dialogue/conversation (though Lori, you are providing that for your son by debating with him which is important!), written communication (kids rely on texting & emailing these days); real-life contact with nature & the outdoors (there is a combination of safety/media spotlights of scary kid kidnapping stuff, technology-age focus, and urban availability of open space).

I also think there will also be (or already is) a shortage of people who can "do" with their hands (plumbing, electrical, carpentry--not as a profession specifically, but as an ability to help yourself when the need arises).

One additional comment...Lori, I know how you feel when you're interacting with a kid who is smarter in some ways than we are, but we have to remember they are still kids in lot of ways. They still look for guidance and structure from us. Sometimes when I say "no" I can tell they're relieved. It's hard for me to limit the computer time too. I'm trying things like, "You need to take a break and read for 30 minutes and then you can play more".

Has he read a biography of Teddy Roosevelt?

TR had a lot of health issues until he got into his teens ( and as a result spent a lot of time in intellectual pursuits ) and had to deal with a major tragedy when he was young. He was easily the most intelligent man to be President.

Excellent, excellent book.

http://www.amazon.com/Theodore-Roosevelt-Modern-Library-Paperbacks/dp/0375756787

I don't think he has read much about his early years, but he has read things like National Geographic's Eyewitness to the 20th Century and here is some of what that book said about him: "Most significantly, it is hard to deny that Theodore Roosevelt was a confirmed racist who used his belief in the inferiority of nonwhites to support American imperial intervention abroad."

That one sentence led to lots of discussion about racism and imperialism. I never read things like that when I was his age and I don't think I would have wanted to talk about it if I had.

He read a biography on Lincoln a while back and he says he is interested in what presidents did while they did while they were in office and why they made the decisions they made.

He works for a while, then plays a while. He seems to need a lot of breaks. My husband and I both like to get our work done first and then have the rest of the day to relax. I have tried to talk him into doing it this way, but I guess as long as he gets his work done, that is all that matters.

I finally finished "Outliers" and it does speak of the longer hours and days of school. This naturally leads to being able to concentrate for longer periods of time and learning quite a bit more earlier on in their education.

Also, the longer days allow students to work problems that take them longer. We are more interested in finishing a problem fast here. That is why word problems are being introduced more often and much earlier here. I often hear "I don't get it" if the student can't get it immediately. I work very hard with my students to "sit with it" and to take their time figuring it out.

In my basic sociology course many years ago in college, my professor said that almost anything can be reduced to immediate versus delayed gratification. I often see how right he was about this. I believe this is one reason that early math is way more than addition. The belief that if one can add, he or she is successful in math for that grade level sets a student up for failure later when applied problems arise.

I'd say the "Most significant" thing about TR is that he empathized with people due to his own situation and experiences and fought against entrenched interests and corrupt politicians to implement much of the Progressive agenda of the 20th century. He sought out the counsel of many people, many of whom were formidable women, including his daughter Alice.

He treated all men equally despite any personal beliefs he had. His fights as a young man, representative, appointee, and elected national official are interesting to read as his passion shines through. He was personally threatened several times and his enemies sought to smear him at every turn. And in the midst of his very hectic life, he wrote many books on history that have stood the test of time. His children became formidable in their own right, which is usually not the case of presidential progeny. Alice was the counselor to many leaders and a force to continue Progressivism and Ted won the Medal of Honor saving the Normandy invasion.

Its pretty telling that the National Geographic has to stoop to gotcha theater to satiate an academic fetish when the real story of TR is very compelling.

Here is a taste of what TR faced:

"By the next summer, however, grieving over the loss of his wife and mother, both of whom had died on the very same day the previous February, he returned to North Dakota seeking to regain his sense of purpose."

And then disaster upon disaster followed along with a cast of characters that challenged him at every turn:

"A brutal cycle of heavy snowfall, partial thawing, and subzero freezing ensued, crusting the ground with impenetrable ice. Thousands of animals froze, starved, or fell prey to predators. Newspapers estimated the total loss of stock as high as 75 percent. When Roosevelt returned to Medora in the spring of 1887, he found that more than half his herd had perished."

You have man barely in his 20s, son of a Dutch New York Business Elite and Ivy League grad trying to do this and get over his loss as well. And before he was in his late teens, he could barely lift ten pounds and spent days or weeks in bed - and he was profoundly gifted:


"Sickly and asthmatic as a youngster, Roosevelt had to sleep propped up in bed or slouching in a chair during much of his early childhood, and had frequent ailments. Despite his illnesses, he was a hyperactive and often mischievous boy. His lifelong interest in zoology was formed at age seven upon seeing a dead seal at a local market. After obtaining the seal's head, the young Roosevelt and two of his cousins formed what they called the "Roosevelt Museum of Natural History". Learning the rudiments of taxidermy, he filled his makeshift museum with many animals that he killed or caught, studied, and prepared for display. At age nine, he codified his observation of insects with a paper titled "The Natural History of Insects".[11]"

It changed him profoundly:

Roosevelt felt that his associations with the West immeasurably enriched his life. He once wrote, "I have always said I never would have been President if it had not been for my experience in North Dakota."

DH and I taught internationally for 11 years, in the Philippines, Turkey, Japan and Latvia, so we've seen an awful lot of different cultures and the ways they treat education. I have to interject a few thoughts here about the work ethic or lack thereof in regards to US kids and our education system. (This may be the wrong thread for it, but many of you seemed to bring it up, so bear with me.)
One of the biggest differences between the way children are educated here and in other countries is that we allow children to start thinking for themselves much much earlier than most of the other countries we worked in. Most of the national curricula that we saw was extremely heavy on rote memorization and empty of critical thinking skills.
There is also usually a much smaller number of spots in universities in other countries than what we have available here in the US. In most places it is still an honor to be able to go to university, where as here there is literally a place for everyone (even those who don't want to go). This over abundance of opportunity leads to complacency for our students as well as the attitude of "Oh, I can get into somewhere, I'm not worried."
Another major difference is that teachers in other countries have been protected by laws so that they have control over what happens in their classrooms - meaning that parents can't go to the administration, complain about a grade and have it changed for what ever reason they see fit. There is a respect for teachers because they really do hold the key to a student's future. (There are no helicopter parents allowed.)

(Yes, I know some of you are wondering about the control that teachers have, but think back to years ago in this country. A teacher had the right and the power in the classroom. Yes, some abused it, but these were and are the exception, not the rule.)

Ok, enough rambling, this is just one of my pet peeves, sorry.

This is a topic that I've been thinking about a lot lately and you sound informed. What do you make of the teachers in other countries? Do they tend to be bright and educated? Here, in my personal experience (my own primary/secondary education and my kid's thus far), teachers often fall into their line of work. Do people aspire to positions in education in the four other countries that you're experienced with? Are they appropriately compensated?

I saw an interesting interview on kids going to college (I believe on the Today Show). The interview was regarding money, where to save, where to spend, etc...

I don't remember the exact numbers given, but it was something like almost 80% of high school graduates go on to a liberal arts college (for at least a year), and by the end of two years, more than 40% of those drop out of college. And in reality, only the top 20% of high school graduates should go to college (liberal arts education), possibly the top 30%, but the bottom 40% should be encouraged to go to trade schools and apply for internships right away. It also stated that the top 10-15% really don't need a formal education or a college degree because they would be able to do any job they want (in other words, figure it out without taking formal classes) and would be better off going to take classes to get certain certifications.

Anyway, I found it interesting for a few reasons.

1. People always ask me why I do not have college funds opened for either of my two kids. One reason is both sets of grandparents have them open already, and the other is that I am not going to push either child to go to a 4 year liberal arts college to get a degree in underwater basket weaving. I also know that both of my children need to be involved in their education, and they need to put forth the effort to go to college (i.e., do what THEY can to get scholarships, etc...). While they are my children, and I want them to go to college and succeed in life, having a college degree doesn't make one successful.

2. I have a college degree, and the only thing it has gotten me is a large amount of debt (student loans). I was naive about scholarships, went to college before the HOPE scholarship, and loved learning so much that my major became "lifetime college student".

3. My degree is in education, yet I am an accountant (with no business, accounting degree). Because I catch on quickly, I am able to pick up on how to do things easily and do not need the "formal education" to figure it out.

4. My husband is one of those college students that dropped out after 2 years. He is so mechanically inclined. He is a physics NUT, and he works in the electronics field. A four year degree from a liberal arts college should not have been the route he took after high school. Trade school should've been the first step. He, of course, is looked down on by society because he's a college drop out with no formal education, etc... but he's so extremely smart in the physical sciences that it blows my mind. He's a "doer", and if either or both of my children become "doers", I will not be upset one bit.

Anyway, sorry to hijack and go off on a tangent.

/off soapbox

Oh, and Kerry, that is the reason I chose not to teach... my brother as well. Teachers no longer are in control of their classrooms. The administration is too top heavy, and parents, well, let's just say parents... Kids see school as a social zone, and not a learning zone. They don't respect each other or their teachers. It's a very "it's my world" type attitude... definitely different than 30, 50+ years ago.

I find your tangent interesting. I agree with much of what you said and never assume that someone without a B.A/S. is less intelligent than someone with a M.A/S. I am generally impressed by a PhD though, especially if earned before age thirty.

In the past year, I served on an interview board. The applicants primarily had MBAs and other management type post graduate degrees with perfect GPAs. The two 3.something GPAs belonged to the applicant with a MS in biology and the applicant with a MA/S from a prestigious university. The required standardized test showed great variance amongst all with the two non-perfect GPA applicants at the top of that stratification.

And herein lies the problem w/ NCLB. They assume that everyone needs to go to college. They don't. That is something created by our society by not respecting those trade jobs which do not require a college degree. Now, a college degree is not needed to do a particularly job, but it is used to weed out applicants. So many drop out of college, or make it through with no real plans but a TON of student loan debt they can't pay back. or else, by paying back the loans, you can't afford a car or house payment. I don't think everyone needs to go to college - this has only resulted in college being watered down. Not everyone needs to take Algebra in highschool - that has resulted in Algebra being watered down.

If you want everyone to limbo beneath the bar, you have to raise the bar. Now do you need to have everyone be able to limbo beneath the bar for everyone to have fun at the party? Nope.

Well, it depends on the country, but mostly, yes, teachers are those that strive to get there. In many countries the pay is even worse than it is here (even taking into account the differences in standards of living) and no one in the education field gets paid above the local poverty level. In fact in Turkey there are whole neighborhoods, as well as hostels around the country for teachers and their families to live and vacation in that are subsidized by the government because the pay is so bad.
In the Philippines the teacher has a great deal of power in the villages because they are often one of the few educated people there, so it is quite an honor to be a teacher.