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Posted By: HowlerKarma Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/22/13 05:39 PM
I'm looking for recommendations from the mathy people here-- it's been so long since I took any precalc (and there's been significant reorganization in how secondary math is taught) that my own experience is little use to me.

Needs to:

a) move at a reasonably good clip, low repetition, low spiraling levels (so probably a college text is better than one intended for high school)

b) have MANY applications-types questions, and relatively few of the basic drill variety

c) ideally, a good older edition which I can get for cheap. I'm looking, in a perfect world, to spend less than $60 on this.

d) video tutorials or something like that on an instructional CD, meh-- maybe. A solutions guide or online companion site, probably better.

My DD is very driven to practice skills with applications/challenge questions, and not driven by much else, honestly. She's not what I'd call a "mathy" kid (math for its own sake), but she's not slow to catch on, either. Any text probably needs to be well-written enough that I can follow it, because she is definitely not an autodidact with math.


Ideas?

I've looked at Blitzer-- that seems to be the one that I'd go with at the moment, but I'm looking for advice from people who know a lot more about math textbooks than I do.

TIA!!
"Advanced Mathematics: Precalculus with Discrete Mathematics and Data Analysis" by Richard G. Brown is part of the Dolciani series of math textbooks. Val reviewed it favorably on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/McDougal-Littell-Advanced-Math-Student/dp/0618250379/ref=cm_rdp_product . It has both computational exercises and more difficult exercises which ask you to prove things.

Posted By: arlen1 Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/22/13 06:17 PM
I am in love with AOPS. IMO, best pre-college math textbooks I've ever encountered. (I and DC are very 'mathy'.) We've used only 'prealgebra' and 'introduction to counting and probability' textbooks (both excellent) until now, though. AOPS has 'precalculus' textbook and associated course, but unfortunately, no alcumus (online problem engine) for precalculus (yet). Each book has excerpts and short diagnostic pre- and post- tests online; for precalculus, it is here:

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Store/viewitem.php?item=precalc

So judging from what I've seen of other AOPS books:

a) move at a reasonably good clip, low repetition, low spiraling levels so probably a college text is better than one intended for high school) - YES (though it is technically for pre-college)

b) have MANY applications-types questions, and relatively few of the basic drill variety - I am not sure about 'application-type questions' - you can check the samples online for yourself, but these are not basic drills (though DS gets bored about mid-way the end of chapter problem sets). YMMV. Actually, if you use this, I'd like to know what you think - whether these are drill-or-no-drill problems.

c) ideally, a good older edition which I can get for cheap. I'm looking, in a perfect world, to spend less than $60 on this. - YES: $47 book + $12 solution manual (or $53 if bought together).

d) video tutorials or something like that on an instructional CD, meh-- maybe. A solutions guide or online companion site, probably better. - There is a solutions manual. There are (great - in DC's opinion) video lectures on SOME topics online, though I'm not sure if there are any specifically for precalculus.

(As a side note, books are also available on amazon - may be faster shipping.)
Posted By: Kai Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/22/13 06:32 PM
Of the traditional texts, I like the Lial book for self study. It has clear explanations, lots of problems of all types (you don't have to do them all), lots of review problems (again, you don't have to do them all), chapter tests, and cumulative review problems for those who need it. And the solutions manual is excellent. You can get used copies very cheaply online.

If you have a math student who would do well with a discovery approach and extra challenge, you might want to take a look at the Art of Problem Solving series (as arlen1 suggested). They have a book that is called Precalculus, but a student who has finished a traditional Algebra II course might be better placed in their Intermediate Algebra book. They have placement tests to help you decide.
If I were in a time zone where the class times were during DS's waking hours, I'd have him in an AOPS online class quick as winking, fwiw. I ? third the recommendation for the books, even if the classes aren't of interest. Given a sufficiently challenging text, I disagree that it'd be a waste of time, though she certainly could just go on to calculus, or indeed to something else, e.g. more statistics.
Posted By: amylou Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/22/13 07:13 PM
My now 13yo ds went through an inexpensive sequence of iPad books - Trig., Precalc and Calc. published by a company called School Yourself (schoolyourself.org). I find their use of text combined with short animations very good, although I can't personally judge effectiveness as I already know the subjects well. I think they worked well for ds in explaining concepts, but they were very limited in the number of exercises for the reader. We have thus supplemented with "Calculus Workbook for Dummies," available for $11 from Amazon.
Originally Posted by ColinsMum
Given a sufficiently challenging text, I disagree that it'd be a waste of time, though she certainly could just go on to calculus, or indeed to something else, e.g. more statistics.


Another possibility is a good analytic geometry course.
Posted By: arlen1 Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/22/13 07:32 PM
Yes, I actually wanted to note this too - AOPS's (introduction to ?) 'number theory', 'counting and probability', etc. could be options for your DD (of course, depending on her interest and other considerations) - there is no set 1-straight-line sequence of courses. I've seen more detailed recommendations on possible paths on AOPS somewhere but can not find it right now (though there is always Richard Rusczyk's 'Calculus Trap' short article).

As to the questions of placement ('Am I ready?' and 'Do I need this?'), I find pre- and post- tests (found online) for AOPS books and courses very useful.

Re. 'very driven to practice skills with applications/challenge questions, and not driven by much else, honestly' - yes, the backbone of AOPS *is* a lot of application/challenge problems (as opposed just to regurgitating knowledge/skill) - but probably few, if any, 'real world' problems - say, applications in physics or chemistry.

I think the books are well written. In 'prealgebra', the first chapter is 'arithmetic', and it is started actually from something like 1+1, but then goes on to (the student) proving various arithmetic properties (e. g., distributive laws, etc.), defining division via solution to 'ax=b' and reciprocals, and (the student) proving more arithmetic properties. Of course, some subtle details may be skipped here and there, but compare this to the standard practice in US of introducing proofs for the first time only in a geometry course, which is (normally) taken very late.

BTW, if you find 'gaps', you can fill them going to specific topic in alcumus (it is free), try the problems - the provided solutions would include specific theory/practice references (and possibly video lectures).
The plan is for her to take AP Statistics next year via her high school-- which we already know means that I'll be teaching her the material, since there pretty much ISN'T any real interactive instruction from them.

That "Khan Academy" model, by the way, really doesn't work for my DD. She hates canned instruction. This is why distance coursework isn't on the table, basically, unless it's a pretty high quality program with a good reputation for live instructional sessions.

We're hoping that she could test out of MTH 111/112 as a college freshman (or earn college credit) and go directly into the calculus sequence, but as others no doubt are aware, much of the "traditional" Algebra II... isn't-- at least not anymore. Ergo, I don't think that my DD's Algebra II foundation is all that secure in terms of just skipping precalc.

Our goal-- precalc via independent study or a college course the summer after she graduates (this summer she is working 8-5 M-F, so not so possible).

I can help, but I'm not well equipped to actively teach this material the way that I am statistics-- I'm an analytical chemist, not a physical chemist. Statistics, I know as well as mathematicians who teach it. Calculus and fancy algebra, not-so-much. So any text would need to be solid enough that I can use it to rejuvenate anything that I don't remember, too. My foundation obviously is radically different than DD's since it was many many years ago, and there is no doubt that it's been 20 years or more since I have thought about some of it.

The college program that she is interested in has the option to do a 3y Math BS, but the catch is that she must start with the calculus sequence as an incoming freshman. This is appealing since it: a) gets her into upper division coursework more rapidly within the major, and b) leaves her some breathing room to explore other interests and probably a double (?) major, even if it's in something in the humanities, where course scheduling becomes a nightmare with a STEM major and leads to incompatibilities.

So that, in a nutshell, is why we're looking and a bit more detail on the nature of WHAT I'm after. It has to be something that I can use well enough to teach her or work alongside her, and it has to be written in a sufficiently engaging style that she can read and enjoy it, and the problems have to be complex enough and interesting/quirky enough that she'll willingly do them.

SHOWING derivations is probably preferable to either extreme-- just giving them out like postulate candies, or asking students to derive all from 'first principles.' DD is neither type of student; she's quite mathematically strong, but not "mathy" the way some kids are.



Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
The college program that she is interested in has the option to do a 3y Math BS, but the catch is that she must start with the calculus sequence as an incoming freshman.
HK, I hope you won't mind some unsolicited advice:

AP Calculus in 12th grade has become quasi-standard for the best students. I would have qualms about an educational program that sent someone to college at an earlier age than usual but with a lighter math background than many of her classmates, especially if she wants to major in math.
Yeah, but our only alternative is for her to have taken the course but without any real instructional support. Several friends of hers have done exactly that. We've been skeptical given the lack of instruction.

Rock and a hard place, that. I agree with you in theory.

We've tried to get a seat at the local CC for her to take more intensively taught math beyond algebra II, but the proximity of the CC to our land grant uni means that the uni uses the CC as their "remedial" math department, and both groups of students (Uni + CC enrollees) have precedence over local high school or homeschool students. NOBODY can get seats in Math 95 or 111-112, and without the latter, she can't get into 251 (Calc I).

Setting aside my theoretical agreement, though-- I do not think that most high school calculus courses adequately substitute for college calculus to begin with. I've seen a lot of those students-- and all about 5-10% of them do not have the math background that the ones who take calculus as college students do.

AP courses are too shallow and test-prep oriented to really teach much, we've found. Sadly. Is DD learning something from AP Physics? Oh, sure she is. But she's interested and she has us as a resource. She gets one hour a week of class time with that teacher. That's it. AP Calculus (and pre-calc, taught by the same person) is "taught" by someone without great English skills, and with little desire to interact with students. Ergo, those courses have an order of magnitude less instruction as compared with physics. The teacher basically grades what they turn in and directs all inquiries to Khan academy or Youtube.



Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
The plan is for her to take AP Statistics next year via her high school-- which we already know means that I'll be teaching her the material, since there pretty much ISN'T any real interactive instruction from them.
Ha. I'm happy enough with calculus, but I've been becoming aware that I'm delaying DS's learning the material in AP stats, because I don't want to have to support him in it. (I will have to learn it first...) In his case my reasoning that if I put it off another year I probably won't have to support him may be correct :-)

Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
That "Khan Academy" model, by the way, really doesn't work for my DD. She hates canned instruction. This is why distance coursework isn't on the table, basically, unless it's a pretty high quality program with a good reputation for live instructional sessions.

Can't quite tell whether this is, or is not, coming from a misconception that the AOPS course would be Khan academy like? (I don't think anyone's suggested anything Khan-academy like, so I'm a bit confused.) Just in case it is, what I'm talking about is live instructor teaching, not their free online Alcumus. E.g. this.

Obviously I have no direct experience of AOPS courses, but I have heard many good things about them and the instructors certainly have the background.

This is not a personal rccomendation from me, other than maybe you should look into them:
"the joy of calculus dvd great courses" on amazon


this homeschool forum link
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/t...tistics/page__hl__+calculus#entry4956865

says there's an online class mixes calculus and statistics and blends well with AOPS, it's by netmath by the University of Ilinois
Posted By: arlen1 Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/22/13 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
AP Calculus in 12th grade has become quasi-standard for the best students.

Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Yeah, but our only alternative is for her to have taken the course but without any real instructional support.
...
She gets one hour a week of class time with that teacher


AOPS online courses have only about 1.5 h / week live sessions - via special chat online (these work just fine). Others say that instructors are responsive outside the live sessions (i have no first hand experience with this in particular, though). So, if you are looking for more instructor access, this may or may not suit you. Your DD can try a course and cancel within 3 weeks or so with no penalty - best to see firsthand.

AOPS has Calculus course (well, it also has 'Group Theory' course), and judging from what I see in other AOPS courses, I'd guess that it is way more rigorous than regular AP Calculus (granted, the AOPS version does not have the AP label which would be valuable for the HS transcript.)

AOPS Online School is now accredited (by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges), so there should not be a problem with course certification.
Posted By: arlen1 Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/22/13 10:50 PM
"Why Discrete Math Is Important" (on possible math education paths) by David Patrick AOPS http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?page=discretemath .

Quote
Most middle and high school math curricula follow a well-defined path:

Pre-algebra → Algebra 1 → Geometry → Algebra 2 → Trig / Precalculus → Calculus

Other middle and high schools prefer an "integrated" curriculum, wherein elements of algebra, geometry, and trigonometry are mixed together over a 3-year or 4-year sequence. However, both of these approaches generally lack a great deal of emphasis on discrete math: topics such as combinatorics, probability, number theory, set theory, logic, algorithms, and graph theory. Because discrete math does not figure prominently in most states' middle or high school "high-stakes" progress exams, and because it also does not figure prominently on college-admissions exams such as the SAT, it is often overlooked.
I love the great ideas generated in this thread. I truly appreciate all of the thoughtful responses! smile This is what is so great about this place. Love that.

I definitely wasn't assuming that AOPS didn't offer instruction-- just pointing out that the live instructional piece of things is critical for my DD in particular, and that this is a major weakness to be on the lookout for-- in her particular case-- with anything online.

Still, 1hr a week is more than she'd get out of the school's AP math teacher. Meh. The Lial text looks like the kind of thing that would most appeal to her. Might be time to take a gander at what the local colleges are using for 111/112. She has little to lose by trying independent study for it, because either she'll place out of it (and be able to follow the 3yr honors math track), or she won't (and in that case, maybe she can take something over a summer to get back in synch).

They want their majors taking college calculus IN college. That's typical of the math programs that I know about, so really it's just the one course that she's missing. I'm glad that we've opted to not have her follow the typical accelerated-into-calculus pathway there, because the repetition after having seen it for a year already would have been awful for her.


Posted By: 22B Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/23/13 04:15 AM
I guess people plan differently. We plan for our son to take pre-calculus in elementary school, and to go to university at age 17 or 18.
CFK-- actually, that IS the reason for the 3y track in our minds-- to allow for going well beyond the requirements for the BS degree, and to make time for a second major. But we're fine with 4 or even 5y, too. DD definitely has the time.

Their graduates seem to go to top-notch grad programs and have for decades, so it doesn't seem to hinder their ability to go further to start with the college calculus sequence.

I'd definitely agree if my DD were seeming likely to head into theoretical mathematics, but I think she's far more likely to go into statistics/actuarial science or into applied mathematics in another field.

Yes, we definitely all plan differently. We never really had the option to do 'something else' with DD until she was more traditionally college-aged. She's champing at the bit to be in a college setting already.
In looking around at math programs at other well-regarded institutions in the area, most seem to have the calculus sequences as the "expected" coursework for beginning majors during their first year. Not sure why several people have insisted that this is "not good enough" for someone intending to major in mathematics.

Many of these same institutions will NOT permit AP coursework to be used in earning credits for the major. They are used for placement only.

UW Math undergraduate program

UW Undergraduate major in Stats

(Note-- M124 is beginning calc at UW)

UC Berkeley Math Dept

Applied Mathematics major at UC-B
Again-- calculus IS the expected start point.

This was very clearly stated to my daughter when she met with the chair of the math department. There was no disappointment that she hadn't taken calculus (and wouldn't prior to matriculation) only that she was missing the prerequisite course. The mathematician who met her is highly experienced-- was there when I was a student there, in fact-- and seemed VERY keen on my DD after talking with her.

As noted before, the reason why she is missing that course is that her school basically doesn't offer it. They offer am online textbook and youtube, which we feel is inadequate in the extreme. If anything, this decision met with immediate approval that we have good SENSE about these things, since we're less worried about what's on a transcript and hustling DD into upper-division coursework ASAP than we are what's in DD's brain.

I am sort of shocked that anyone would assume that my 13yo is not up to the task of a major in applied mathematics on the basis of "only" starting as a regular freshman-- in calculus. She's not an autodidact, necessarily, but she can be when highly motivated. This is a kid that learned pretty much the entire year of honors algebra I in about a week-- and has retained it. She enjoys teaching math, and is a popular math tutor. She may not be "mathy" in terms of thinking about theory in her free time, but she definitely has the raw material for a math major, which is HER idea, not mine. Her idea because it closes the fewest doors on her multipotentiality up front.


The Honors track wasn't my idea-- that was the department chair's suggestion upon learning that my DD was 13 and a high school junior. The explanation was that this would give her more coursework that would suit her-- in a cross-disciplinary sense. We were thrilled, quite frankly, that this was an individual that immediately recognized DD's multipotentiality and wide interests for what they are.

Sorry if this is sounding a wee bit defensive; I'm feeling a bit like my parenting is being judged here, and I'm not sure why.
Originally Posted by 22B
I guess people plan differently. We plan for our son to take pre-calculus in elementary school, and to go to university at age 17 or 18.
I don't want to derail this thread, but I'd love to hear/discuss (maybe in a new thread) your thoughts about this, 22B. DS9 has taken precalculus, but is a very different character, I think, from HowlerKarma's DD, and I don't see him starting university before 17 or 18 probably. So how to make this work well has been exercising us.
Originally Posted by ColinsMum
Originally Posted by 22B
I guess people plan differently. We plan for our son to take pre-calculus in elementary school, and to go to university at age 17 or 18.
I don't want to derail this thread, but I'd love to hear/discuss (maybe in a new thread) your thoughts about this, 22B. DS9 has taken precalculus, but is a very different character, I think, from HowlerKarma's DD, and I don't see him starting university before 17 or 18 probably. So how to make this work well has been exercising us.

Do you have to keep going in math continually, or can you have your ds move on to other subjects, sciences, etc, then come back to whatever math he needs when he needs it?

polarbear
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
I am sort of shocked that anyone would assume that my 13yo is not up to the task of a major in applied mathematics on the basis of "only" starting as a regular freshman-- in calculus.

If there is a 3-year B.S. program in math starting with calculus, she will be able to start with calculus and complete it, but if followed by multivariable calculus and linear algebra the 2nd year, as Berkeley requires as a "LOWER-DIVISION REQUIRED COURSE", she would have only one year left for upper-division courses that have multivariable calculus and linear algebra as pre-requisites. This program has less depth than a 4-year one in which a student starts with MV calculus and linear algebra and spends the next three years taking upper-division courses, and it arguably leaves a student less prepared for graduate study in math or for a math-intensive career.

For many highly gifted students, their BA is effectively a master's degree, since they are taking graduate-level courses in their junior and senior years. I think that is what I'd like for my eldest.

Even with a 5 on AP Calculus BC, I was underprepared to study electricity and magnetism as a freshman, having never seen "Div, Grad, Curl, and All That" (there is a book with that title). I'd like my eldest to have at least informally studied some MV calculus before college.
Originally Posted by CFK
As to those of you with young children who are very accelerated now and you think that you can delay college until 18 - good luck with that! That appetitie for learning doesn't fade away. In our experience it gets stronger every year. I had plans of gap years, fifth years of high school, etc. My son did not.

Exactly. It has been a Herculean effort to keep DD from college this long, to be blunt. We have deliberately deprived her of some exposures because that surface 'skimming' is only likely to ruin her for the deeper exposure, and it won't really satisfy her anyway. Those with kids who haven't gone through high school recently may not understand what I mean, there. Let me explain.

Originally Posted by I'm just sticking this into a quote box so that it doesn't hog up space
My DD is, in fact, way ahead of most of her peers across the board-- in any area where she has had exposure, I mean. We supply her with college level textbooks and she eats them up. Current obsessions include the historical development of psychology and sociology, musical instrument acoustics, neurology, and poetry forms. Oh, and literature, which is sort of a given with her. She has been pretty hungry for deeper learning experiences for 4-6 years now, and we've indulged it via afterschooling-- in areas where she isn't likely to encounter the subject later in a mandatory course somewhere. She is being raised by two experienced college advisors, after all. wink

She actually UNDERSTANDS the AP Physics B course that she's taking, and completely retains what she learns, which, if you check out the discussions that Val and I have had about that class, is kind of astonishing in any high school student-- regardless of age. Again, it's because of the limitations of her school environment that we opted to have her take physics but not chemistry (well, and also because quite frankly, we didn't think that the chemistry teacher was actually qualifed to teach our DD that material-- more on that in a moment), plus we wanted her to have an actual laboratory experience.

She can be highly autodidactic, but it's very spotty and idiosyncratic. Not exactly a good way to establish a foundation for further study.

The professors that DD talked with did go through the three-or-four year plan with her on paper as to math coursework. They know that she aspires to a grad program-- there was some discussion of doing a 5y M.S. program there.

I understand the cautions being expressed in Bostonian and CFK's posts, but for my own DD, she will tolerate one run through "learning" calculus, and it had better be a good one, because remediative instruction is something that she tolerates very ill... and that's a gross understatement. She's a mastery learner, and high school is NOT set up for kids like her. High school now is just a continuation of K-8. It's more spiraling, more 'skimming' the surface, and more test-prep. Sad, but true.

She will earn college credit next year for both English Composition and for Intro to Statistics. We've deliberately NOT had her earn credit via AP examinations because that isn't why she's taking AP courses. She needs NO help graduating from college any earlier. But she definitely needed more challenging material. She will-- probably-- place out of lower-division coursework in many, many areas as a college freshman. We just don't want her to accumulate CREDITS while doing it. It's an asynchrony/maturity issue, and our logic is exactly like 22B's here-- we want to narrow that gap any way we can.

Hiring a tutor is a reasonable idea-- might have DD put out some feelers this summer in her internship and see if she can connect with an math/stats grad student locally who'd be willing. The reason why I'm willing to teach her stats but not precalc/calc is the same one that Colinsmum alluded to-- my background supports stats. I know it inside and out. I know precalc/calc about as well as a good student who has taken the courses and done very well at mastering the material in them. That's not always good enough with DD-- this is the other problem that we (increasingly) had with the math instruction at the high school level-- knowing what's IN the book/course is one thing, but knowing the subject inside and out is actually needed for kids that interact with the subject in ways which are beyond the scope of the class, but evidently necessary for them to scaffold the material.

THIS is why my DD has such trouble being an autodidact for some subjects. She needs the interaction with an actual subject expert that understands far MORE than what is in the book. I can do that with stats, but not with calculus. She has trouble with any teacher who isn't a subject expert because of the way she learns.

I'm very frustrated by this situation; her school won't actually teach the kids math in a meaningful way, and her dad doesn't have the time/inclination. His background is MORE than up to the task. Mine isn't. But he refuses to sacrifice his free time to do it. mad


Originally Posted by CFK again
Yes as to what Bostonian wrote. My son started taking grad courses his first semester as a freshman because he was so far ahead of the game going into college. He will complete his BS in three years but will have over 15 grad courses on his transcript by that time (if all goes as scheduled). Grad school competition can be fierce. There are far fewer spots than for undergrad. And even fewer that are funded.

Edited to add:

Suggestion for HK or anyone else in the same situation: go thru the college course schedule and plan out the three years. See exactly how many course she can fit in to that schedule (keeping in mind that not all schools offer all courses every semester). See if your child is where he/she needs to be at the end of that time in order to get where he/she wants to go after.

REALLY great advice-- secondly, I'd add that a minor in a laboratory science is a great way to ensure better FUNDING for grad school. That way, you can be a lab TA even if you aren't in the department. This was common where I was a grad student, because the Gen Chem machine had to be fed, and there were simply never enough Chem students willing to take on a third lab section-- we had physics, math, mat-sci and vet-med students teaching lab sections all the time. Now, it didn't come with a tuition waiver, of course, the way it did for our own majors, but it was certainly better than nothing!

Also keep in mind your child's tolerance for repetition, and be on the lookout for it. If you have a child like mine that doesn't tolerate it, craft mastery into preparatory material. AP coursework is NOT college level; at least not for anyone who isn't fairly autodidactic and in possession of an expert human resource. It's that skimming thing again. AP Chem in high school is NOT the equivalent of Gen Chem. Unfortunately, as noted above, K-12 education practices are hardly on your side there. If you're serious about a subject, actually take the college course somehow. For HG+ kids, it'll be much more meaningful and closer to their needs. That's my advice.

Higher ed = mastery model, particularly in STEM. Frequently it all fits together like a puzzle-box with a trick lid, with each course needing to come in a particular order because of how things scaffold on one another conceptually. That is VERY different from the reality of K-12 pedagogy. It's why so many institutions really don't have a lot of respect for AP credits-- other than as an indicator of who the brightest kids are.

Individual plan. Yes. smile


I may try the technique of using AOPS for me to learn it well enough to teach it to DD using the Lial text (or something else that seems to suit her).

If I teach it to her, I need to understand a lot more than the level that her textbook is written at.

Wasn't a problem through algebra II, that. Probably wouldn't be a problem for trig. I guess I'm a little afraid of the calculus.
FWIW, HK, I chose Materials Science to major in at UCB for reasons similar to your DD's - it let me double-major with the largest number of potential engineering majors, and therefore would give me the most flexibility down the road, given that I was going to the College of Engineering (there is a story about why the College of Letters and Science wasn't available to me, but that's not really germane here). I had to declare a major when I was a second-term sophomore in high school, again for reasons that are not immediately important. But when I finally took a course in it two years later, I loved it, and went on to get a Ph.D. in it. Sometimes serendipity works out just fine.
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
I may try the technique of using AOPS for me to learn it well enough to teach it to DD using the Lial text (or something else that seems to suit her).
AOPS is meant for people who love math for its own sake and like to tackle math contest problems. The Lial textbook is for ordinary bright students. Therefore your taking an AOPS course so you could teach Lial is overkill.

So far I've heard from people on Lial, on AoPS, Thinkwell, Derek Owens, and Richard G. Brown...

nobody's tried Blitzer?

That one seemed so promising... might call upon a mathematician friend or two and ask about it if nobody here knows.

Maybe ColinsMum and I should just swap kids for a few months. wink

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Originally Posted by a long explanation again... feel free to skip
I like math. I do. But at the time that I learned calculus, I was fixated on passing the class (with a host of other more-pressing life concerns weighing on me) and not on "understanding the deeper mathematics." I then went on to other things, most of which required advanced skills only in statistical methods and differential equations. The math required by my spouse's graduate physics coursework was downright terrifying. Then again, I have math phobia, and it all started in high school, but culminated in a spectacularly bad calculus experience. Too long a story.

I have certainly taken graduate mathematics coursework and done well with it-- ironically, in spite of my apparent struggles with calculus as an undergraduate, I have been "the mathy one" at every single professional placement since then. I'm not particularly "slow" as a math student, but I'm an applications and modeling person by nature.


Anyway. I'm not so sure that Bostonian is completely understanding my point that my DD, while not having any particular overwhelming DRIVE for math competition and the like (again, there are other factors here that are in play), is also not a typical but bright math student. That kind of textbook seems to work tolerably well for her as a support, given her learning style. She has a disconcerting tendency to interrupt straightforward instruction with questions that require a lot deeper understanding to answer (they otherwise generate; "WTH?? Why are you so off topic?"). I've even fallen prey to that myself in subjects like psychology, history, and econ with her, where I simply didn't know WHY she was asking, or how it connected with what she was supposed to be learning... so I've learned to respond carefully with a wary... "Why do you ask?" This is why I say that she both is-- and is not-- an autodidact. She learns FROM other people, mostly, but not in the ways that they necessarily intend.

Being something of a polymath myself, in most subjects this is fun, but with calculus material, I confess that I'm intimidated. I WANT her to have good answers to her questions, and to be able to probe her understanding Socratically, because she seems to need that in order to construct her own understanding-- it's about scaffolding for her.

Ergo-- it seems as though the AoPS text might be precisely what I need to understand the theoretical underpinnings well enough to teach my DD the precalculus concepts solidly in a way that suits HER needs. The other option is to look for a tutor that has graduate-level understanding. I'm probably far more concerned about my own background here than is truly warranted, but this is my math phobia surrounding that word "calculus" talking. LOL.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions about her math acceleration not matching her LOG, please recall that she is one of those rare kids who seems to NOT be either "mathy" or "science-ey" or "verbal" but all of those things (and more) in equal measure. She simply doesn't have enough hours in the day to pursue everything that she's into, which makes her incredibly sad.

We've not encouraged her to throw away any of those interests, because we can't (yet) judge which of them are most likely to bear fruit. Well, okay-- the Pokemon obsession had to go. wink She thinks math/music/?. Several years ago, she thought perhaps physics, but she really doesn't enjoy classical mechanics (hmmmm... maybe because it was algebra-based... who knows). She likes math very much, she's very strikingly good at it, and she likes knowing it inside and out-- well enough to bring a variety of approaches to bear in teaching. She's quite gifted as a teacher. (She is one of only 16-18 kids chosen to act as a peer tutor in a system of ~30K, for whatever that is worth... and I think that DOES say something about her abilities to understand the math, not just her soft/people skills, because she's regularly in high demand and has been asked back over and over again. She regularly solves problems that stump the teacher-- often using her own methods to do so.) All of that to say that we don't KNOW that she'll stick with math. It just closes the fewest doors on likely interests for now, and lets her get into a collegiate environment and give her a chance to explore interests with electives from across the campus for a year or two while she builds math background.


DD doesn't enter competitions in which 'winning' = 'travel.' This means that most science and math contests get written off automatically, and she's never had much interest in competitive chess, either, in spite of very clear aptitude. It's possible that the AoPS text would appeal to her-- but more likely, IMO, that it would be something that we'd pull out occasionally to deal with those questions that come out of nowhere. A means of drilling down as needed, as it were.




Good point.

I'm not necessarily thinking that she's LIKELY to go after a PhD in math, so much as maybe statistics or another area of study where the math is a supporting feature.

Too soon to know.

Frankly, we'd rather that she spend 5y on an undergrad degree so that we don't pay quite so much for 'exploration' (which is necessary for her).
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Frankly, we'd rather that she spend 5y on an undergrad degree so that we don't pay quite so much for 'exploration' (which is necessary for her).
Undergrad in STEM is less likely to be funded than grad school, so I don't understand this statement, unless she is getting a scholarship for undergrad.

It's a LOT less for undergrad tuition than graduate work-- and either one is cheaper than a degree that you very capably earned but belatedly discover that you cannot tolerate for a lifetime.

The exploration is essential because this is a HG+ (PG?) kid who has wide ranging interests and equally wide ranging high potential to match it. There's not really time for that after undergrad.

Math isn't the only thing that she could do or wants to. It's just the most versatile thing (IMO).

We've looked at those options, and they don't exist for her locally, believe it or not. Well, not meaningfully, anyway. They're actually high school courses administratively under the aegis of the local CC. On the genuinely college-level front, she can enroll as a non-matriculated student, (assuming that she can get a seat in a popular/high-demand course, which has been problematic), but the costs are actually MORE than if she were a regular college student, since our local district (and also her school's district) don't participate in the actually-on-college-campuses-DE program statewide, which also isn't great from a financial standpoint. It's cheaper to send her where we're looking than to let her take three classes at the local Uni as a non-Matriculated student. The size of the local uni is also a concern, as class sizes are in the 150-300 range.

Honestly, high school level coursework isn't what she needs. We're hoping that she can put up with it one more year-- during which time, yes, she'll be taking dual enrollment classes (but here in OR, those are not taught ON college campuses, but by high school teachers), but also four classes which are a total waste of her time, but necessary if she is to stay enrolled with them.

We're all very very weary of playing the game imposed by the K-12 system with it's notions of what constitutes academic challenge and depth. Even the DE-qualifying coursework that she's taken (and she's already had 4 of those in high school-- we just didn't pick up the credits because they don't advertise the program) were no better than anything else. It's appalling-- we've delayed DD graduating from high school by about a year, but doing more than that seems actively harmful at this point. It's not giving her a chance to actively explore much of anything, and it piles on the busywork instead and pretends that makes thing "more challenging." All it really does is starve DD for what she actually needs, and punish her for any divergent thinking via her latent perfectionism. They just fired the sole teacher who actually taught at the genuine DE level. Not that I'm feeling bitter or anything. :-/ I know for a fact that DD's curriculum is actually slightly MORE demanding than what her local brick-and-mortar peers are seeing, so it's all K-12 schools, not just hers... I mean, the lack of direct instruction is particular, but the level is slightly better, so it's six of one... half a dozen of t'other.

All that high school has done (even AP + honors, which are the DE options) is make her say "Wow, bummer THIS class sucks so much. The subject has such potential, too..." She's always so excited that the next year might be "real," and elated when she reads her new textbooks... then let down when it's the same old low-level assessments and discussion about how to memorize material. It really hasn't solved anything-- it's made the multipotentiality problem the same or worse. Enrichment is no longer enough, and we're approaching the breaking point again (I can tell, knowing my DD). Talking to an enthusiastic and welcoming Math department chair was the first glimmer of academic HOPE that I've seen my DD have since 9th grade. I felt faintly horrified that she's ordinarily so dejected about school and so inured to to idea that she learns NOTHING.

Seriously, guys-- we HAVE thought about this. A lot, even. We're also very familiar with the system, having been college faculty (in STEM).

It's why I tried to explain initially WHY I needed advice on particular materials and what type of learner my DD is, rather than asking if it is a good plan to start with. I realize that the unsolicited advice is well-intended, but we really wouldn't be doing things the way that we are if we had good alternatives.
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Maybe ColinsMum and I should just swap kids for a few months. wink

Has occurred to me! I think all four of us would learn a lot, and not all of it would be to do with mathematics ;-)
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Seriously, guys-- we HAVE thought about this. A lot, even. We're also very familiar with the system, having been college faculty (in STEM).

It's why I tried to explain initially WHY I needed advice on particular materials and what type of learner my DD is, rather than asking if it is a good plan to start with. I realize that the unsolicited advice is well-intended, but we really wouldn't be doing things the way that we are if we had good alternatives.

OK. After the Brown book I suggest a relatively short book

http://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Elementary-Functions-Robert-Sorgenfrey/dp/0395340578
Analysis of Elementary Functions
Robert H. Sorgenfrey and Edwin F. Beckenbach

that provides a bridge from trigonometry to calculus, and/or "Modern Introductory Analysis" by Dolciani et al (there are several editions).
Originally Posted by Bostonian
OK. After the Brown book I suggest a relatively short book

http://www.amazon.com/Analysis-Elementary-Functions-Robert-Sorgenfrey/dp/0395340578
Analysis of Elementary Functions
Robert H. Sorgenfrey and Edwin F. Beckenbach

that provides a bridge from trigonometry to calculus, and/or "Modern Introductory Analysis" by Dolciani et al (there are several editions).

This reminds me that I meant to say: I don't know where "proper" analysis, the sort I learned in the first year at university, gets taught in the US high school/university sequence, but I think your DD might really appreciate learning it alongside calculus, or even before, HowlerKarma. School calculus (and this certainly applies to the AP calculus syllabus, which I have looked at) tends to nod at continuity and the definition of derivatives as limits, and then expect you to get on with it by rote. Tom K"orner's notes here
https://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~twk/C5.pdf
are a good guide to the stuff I'm talking about, and his "Further Reading" section at the end recommends some books.
Excellent-- THANK YOU. I didn't have the terminology, but this is something we've been concerned with in all of DD's math coursework thus far. There has been an elimination of much of the deductive reasoning work that used to be so much a part and parcel of geometry and everything after. It's all just pushing stuff through the grinder now. They SHOW them proofs-- a bit-- but then the most they are asked to do is fill.in.the.blanks.with.the.right.postulate.

(Makes me crazy, that. Also-- leads to a lot more of those wildly out of level questions at least with my DD.)

She wants to know where the quadratic equation COMES from. KWIM?

The reason that I'm a little reluctant to have her tackle AoPS at this level, though, is that it may be too much for her all at once, given her previous conditioning. (Gee, thanks mediocrity-focused public school maths... ugh.)

Great recommendations here, everyone!! It is sincerely appreciated.

DD has already dug into her AP Stats textbook for next year. (Apparently this is more fun than the ten overdue AP Literature assignements for THIS year... LOL).

It's Bock, Velleman, and de Veaux's "Stats: Modelling the World."

I can't speak to the math (yet) but the writing style is very engaging and amusing, so it's right up my DD's alley. I'll update as I have a chance to look through it further.
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
DD has already dug into her AP Stats textbook for next year. (Apparently this is more fun than the ten overdue AP Literature assignements for THIS year... LOL).

It's Bock, Velleman, and de Veaux's "Stats: Modelling the World."

I can't speak to the math (yet) but the writing style is very engaging and amusing, so it's right up my DD's alley. I'll update as I have a chance to look through it further.
Please do: I shall probably be in the market for a good stats book some time soon.

Mind you, the match between what's in A level stats here and what's in AP stats there seems very loose, and it doesn't even seem to be that one asks more than the other - but my understanding of stats isn't good enough to see what's underlying the different choices that have been made in designing these syllabuses. If you're interested enough to look, the contents of units S1-S4, starting on page 79 here, are what I'm comparing with.
Posted By: Val Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/26/13 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
There has been an elimination of much of the deductive reasoning work that used to be so much a part and parcel of geometry and everything after. It's all just pushing stuff through the grinder now. They SHOW them proofs-- a bit-- but then the most they are asked to do is fill.in.the.blanks.with.the.right.postulate.

(Makes me crazy, that. Also-- leads to a lot more of those wildly out of level questions at least with my DD.)

She wants to know where the quadratic equation COMES from. KWIM?

The reason that I'm a little reluctant to have her tackle AoPS at this level, though, is that it may be too much for her all at once, given her previous conditioning. (Gee, thanks mediocrity-focused public school maths... ugh.)

So, joining this discussion pretty late.

Here's what struck me as I read through this thread:

  • Your daughter's school is teaching watered-down mathematics
  • Her Algebra 2 knowledge isn't as strong as it could be
  • She wants to major in maths via an accelerated 3-year program
  • You're concerned that you might have trouble teaching Advanced Math/Precalculus


Here are my thoughts.

Based on what you've written, I'm concerned about your DD's readiness for an accelerated degree program in mathematics. Not because of her abilities, but because of your summary about what she's been taught.

My son was in a watered-down public school geometry class last year. It, too, used the fill-in-the-blanks approach to geometric proofs. We were lucky that they let him study independently using the Brown geometry textbook. I read through the school's geometry and algebra 1 textbooks and was appalled at how they had stripped both subject down to the easiest of the easy A-section problems in the Brown series (A section: easy but with increasing difficulty, B: medium and ditto; C: tough). Each section had dozens of problems that all asked the same thing. They "changed" the problems by doing things like rotating the triangle 90 degrees. sick Oh, BTW, these textbooks were official state-of-California-approved books.

Does this sound like your DD's coursework? If so, IMO, she probably needs a solid foundation in Advanced Math/Precalculus. If not, feel free to ignore this message.

Here's my suggestion: drop AP Statistics and tell the school that she's going to take an in-depth Advanced Math course as a homeschooler. Find a way to make this work if you can. If not, stick to your summer plan but be aware that she'll be sacrificing her earnings. My son's school was flexible on this point; maybe your DD's will be too. Tell them something along the lines of "The college said she should." Maybe get that person you knew as a student to write a letter. Something like that.

I haven't seen the Lial book, but as Bostonian noted, I know the Brown series very well. I recommend them highly. Each section has a discussion of the topic at hand and multiple examples. They derive things like the quadratic formula rather than simply presenting them. Sometimes they derive one or two equations and then leave derivations of other ones to the student as problems in the B or C sections.
The Advanced Math book has a lot of problems that relate to physics, chemistry, astronomy, and a variety of other subjects.

Importantly for your DD (I think), the Brown Advanced Math book goes through some of the material in Algebra 2, but in more depth. But because of the way the book is organized, it's easy to identify the problems that your DD already knows how to solve, and you can assign the stuff she doesn't know.

IMO, if you think that AOPS will be too much for her, it isn't clear to me how she'll be able to cope with true college-level stuff. My HG+/PG nephew (started college about 10 years ago) had a real shock in that regard, and he was quite well-prepared, having taken calculus in 12th grade and having done well in it.

Additionally, I see your point about colleges wanting students to take their calc. courses. My understanding of the situation is that this is because they AP courses leave them ill-prepared for the next class up. Back to my nephew: he was agog at what Intro Calc covered in college in 3 weeks compared to what he did in an entire year in 12th grade. People here have posted similarly over the years, and the math faculty at the CC where I taught for a while said the same. I think this is why many colleges won't turn a 4 or 5 on an AP exam into a ticket to higher-level math courses. Certainly, my nephew tried it and ran back to the Introductory course after 1 or 2 classes, only to be worked very hard in the lower-level course. You see, they are assuming that all or most of their students kids had this stuff last year.

So this leads me back to the Brown book. If you buy a copy (only ~$15 shipped for a used one on Amazon), you'll see that the last chapters of the book deal with limits (Ch. 19) and derivatives (Ch. 20). Again, I don't know your DD and am only writing based on what you've told us here. BUT, IMO, it's probably a very good idea for her to have exposure to calculus before she hits it in the first weeks of college. Remember, her whole world will have turned upside down at that point, and it's a lot easier to deal with a little bit of "been there done that" than its opposite.

As for you not feeling comfortable teaching her: you might be surprised at how logical it all is. I've taught myself a lot of math over the last couple of years, and it does come back. But failing that, hire a local student.

Buy a solutions manual. A teacher's edition is a nice extra, because it gives you lesson plans an homework suggestions.

Do a search by ISBN and always contact a seller before buying to MAKE SURE they're selling the teacher's edition that matches the edition of the student book you bought. If you really want it and have no other choice, you can get a copy from the publisher by calling them and telling them you're a homeschooler. Be very careful to get matching editions. You can get all the ISBN's on the publisher's website.

Phew.

Thank you SO much for the insights on the Brown textbook-- you knew EXACTLY what I wanted to know and why! I really love teacher's editions for another reason, too; they often have enrichment/explanation notes which are detailed or too technical for inclusion in the student editions. DD has also learned this and actively ASKS me to get teacher's editions of texts when I can.

DD's foundation is probably better than I give her credit for, honestly, because she simply doesn't learn any way but "thoroughly" when she learns math.

However, Pearson's idea of competent math instruction leaves a huge gap on the way toward MY notion of thorough. LOL.

DD has already stumbled onto the idea of limits and functions on her own...

and has expressed exasperation at the 'slow/painful' process of using algebra to "approximate" (her term) solutions to classical mechanics problems in Physics this year.

So maybe I'm selling her short on the AoPS approach. I dunno. It just seems like she is seldom willing to spend any time cranking through the mechanics unless the problems themselves are pretty interesting to her.

Physics has been golden that way. She definitely remembers all the trig she learned, though-- she has breezed through optics.


That's why I think that keeping AP Stats is a good move strategically-- for her. She will have next summer, and honestly, employment probably isn't on the radar anyway for other reasons.

It's also possible that we'll be able to stuff in precalc next year. You never know.
Originally Posted by ColinsMum
This reminds me that I meant to say: I don't know where "proper" analysis, the sort I learned in the first year at university, gets taught in the US high school/university sequence
It is taught only to math majors, in a course such as Math 25 or 55 (Harvard) http://www.math.harvard.edu/pamphlets/freshmenguide.html taken by very well-prepared freshmen or by sophomores with less preparation.

Posted By: Tallulah Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/29/13 02:35 AM
Are you answering your own question here

Quote
and has expressed exasperation at the 'slow/painful' process of using algebra to "approximate" (her term) solutions to classical mechanics problems in Physics this year.

So maybe I'm selling her short on the AoPS approach. I dunno. It just seems like she is seldom willing to spend any time cranking through the mechanics unless the problems themselves are pretty interesting to her.

If she wants the right answer to the physics problems, then calculus is what she needs.

I know you said she doesn't learn online well, but maybe you could do this and use itto teach her as she learns calculus.

https://www.edx.org/course/mit/8-01x/classical-mechanics/853
Good point. She's actually rather eager to learn calculus.
I can vouch for the Pearson products being internally consistent, but not necessarily "solid" in a way that sets up higher math learning.

Frankly, 90% of geometry and algebra II out of those textbooks was a colossal waste of time, as it didn't really teach much that was new. It was review of earlier concepts, and issuing postulates and theorems right and left, and-- as Val notes-- exercises including four or five types of problems with 7-10 different ways of iterating them. We didn't bother with those, as they were most inane "follow the steps in example 3" sorts of procedural questions, not thinking questions. We stuck with the "challenge" questions for my DD. She did about 60% of those in most chapters. It would have been nice if there had been more of those to choose from. I often made problems up.

Posted By: madeinuk Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/29/13 11:10 PM
Have you tried looking at Forgotten Calculus? It isn't mathy for its own sake but is quite practical from what I have seen. I bought forgotten algebra and the calc one at a yard sale for next to nothing to try to brush up purely for fun. The algebra one had good worked examples - there were mistakes in the answer keys but weirdly I found it motivating to rework stuff to prove to myself beyond doubt that I was right and the book was wrong. I have only browsed the calc one but it seems like a solid practical intro to me. I haven't looked at this stuff since my 'A' levels mind (early 80s) so rusty would be understating things...
Posted By: Val Re: Precalculus text for independent study? - 05/30/13 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by kcab
Val, do you recall which textbooks those were? I'd like to check on the text used by DS's school, though his algebra class was rather complete.

Here's the Geometry book on Amazon.

I reviewed the book. What I wrote is a good summary of my feelings about it (bottom line: this is a textbook in need of some Ritalin). Note about the other reviews: there 7 apart from mine. Four were feedback about the seller, two were about tutoring, and one was a real review.

The algebra book was in the same series.
Sounds remarkably like a kissing cousin to the geometry text that my daughter used.


The first review there is 100% accurate, in my estimation, though what the erstwhile educator posits (that the text would be good for "mathy" kids and lousy for everyone else) is also false because they don't learn the correct foundation either. DD definitely didn't find her geometry course "too challenging" but it was disconcertingly ... RANDOM.

What is even sadder is that families in our school who have not had experience with anything but Calvert math or Pearson (EveryDay Math, then the numbered sequence) seem to think that this is an AWESOME!! textbook... why? Evidently for it's unquestionable superiority over EveryDay Math.

(This boggles my mind. Not having experienced the dubious joys of EDM myself, I can't say... but anything that makes this geometry text look "excellent" by comparison has got to be horrific.)


Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
I'm looking for recommendations from the mathy people here-- it's been so long since I took any precalc (and there's been significant reorganization in how secondary math is taught) that my own experience is little use to me.

Needs to:

a) move at a reasonably good clip, low repetition, low spiraling levels (so probably a college text is better than one intended for high school)

b) have MANY applications-types questions, and relatively few of the basic drill variety

c) ideally, a good older edition which I can get for cheap. I'm looking, in a perfect world, to spend less than $60 on this.

d) video tutorials or something like that on an instructional CD, meh-- maybe. A solutions guide or online companion site, probably better.
You have probably settled on a book, but this topic may be of continuing general interest.

The book "Introductory Analysis" by Dolciani, Sorgenfrey, Graham and Myers (1988) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395524326 was the last revision co-authored by Dolciani of "Modern Introductory Analysis" (1964). Referring to your criteria above, it satisfies (a) and (c) but not (d). Regarding (b), there are some but not too many application problems, but in the harder questions (labeled C, with easy and intermediate problems labelled A and B) there are lots of proofs. It is a good book for a math major.
Thanks for the recommendation!

Her current precalc class is using a Pearson product... (meh-- and the class itself is 'meh' too, fwiw)

but we also managed to snag a gently used copy of Lial which is GREAT.

I'll also look for the Dolciani next time I am adding thing to the Amazon wishlist.

As long as I make it reasonably clear that I'm not intending to put it into the shopping cart (yet-- heheheh) I think that my spouse won't scalp me.

If he gets mad, I'm blaming you. grin

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