perfectionism - 01/21/06 05:52 PM
How can parent's and teachers help childern deal with the set-backs of perfectionism.
Re: perfectionism - 01/22/06 07:51 AM
This is a big question. Can you be more specific with your exact situation? I know it can be really frustrating, as a parent. I try to make my mistakes public to the kids who are watching and model how I can learn from or benifit from them and kindness to myself.
Re: perfectionism - 01/22/06 12:08 PM
My son has always struggled with perfectionism. But this year has been very difficult.His teacher compairs him with another student(teacher's pet).
She tells him things like"look at chriss's drawing.look at chriss's writing.This is the way your drawing and writing should look"
He is soooo afraid of making a mistake.And he really beats himself up.Two weeks ago, The School finally agreed to change his class.But his prefectionism issue has not changed.
I point out my mistakes and other's all the time.
She tells him things like"look at chriss's drawing.look at chriss's writing.This is the way your drawing and writing should look"
He is soooo afraid of making a mistake.And he really beats himself up.Two weeks ago, The School finally agreed to change his class.But his prefectionism issue has not changed.
I point out my mistakes and other's all the time.
Re: perfectionism - 01/23/06 10:48 AM
First: Welcome Home
Second: Good work in getting your son away from that situation!
Third: More questions - (If you are willing -wink)
How old is your son? What are incentives for him? Is he bribable? What are his favorite interests? Does he have an academic life outside of school? What books have you read on the subject? Is the school going to accelerate him or is the class change a lateral move? Is he already accelerated? Overall, is his school a good fit academically? Does he participate in a school,summer,or saturday program where he gets to be with age-mates who are also peers? Has he been tested enough that you pretty much know what you are dealing with? When (if) you do academic work with him at home, how many grade levels above his current placement is it? How long has the perfectionism been an issue? Has it also been an issue for you or for DS's other parent? Whats DS's personality like in general? Friendships? When you "point out mistakes," how much charity is in you spirit? If I were in your shoes I would have a lot of emotional processing to do regarding the current teacher - what/who are your resources to do this (if in fact we are similar in this way.) Does you son have any interests/activites where he is less affected by the perfectionism? Is he also highly sensitive? How does he view his gifts? Can you harness spirituality to help here? (Journey over distination) Does your family/community have Male Role Model who have created their own goals or is it pretty much, use one's smarts to follow the "conventional wisdom" about how to suceed? (books: Smart Boys, A whole New Mind)
If you can bear to spill the beans, I'll try hard to round up some parental experience. You may not be able to change the world, but you can sometimes win by changing your perspective!
Second: Good work in getting your son away from that situation!
Third: More questions - (If you are willing -wink)
How old is your son? What are incentives for him? Is he bribable? What are his favorite interests? Does he have an academic life outside of school? What books have you read on the subject? Is the school going to accelerate him or is the class change a lateral move? Is he already accelerated? Overall, is his school a good fit academically? Does he participate in a school,summer,or saturday program where he gets to be with age-mates who are also peers? Has he been tested enough that you pretty much know what you are dealing with? When (if) you do academic work with him at home, how many grade levels above his current placement is it? How long has the perfectionism been an issue? Has it also been an issue for you or for DS's other parent? Whats DS's personality like in general? Friendships? When you "point out mistakes," how much charity is in you spirit? If I were in your shoes I would have a lot of emotional processing to do regarding the current teacher - what/who are your resources to do this (if in fact we are similar in this way.) Does you son have any interests/activites where he is less affected by the perfectionism? Is he also highly sensitive? How does he view his gifts? Can you harness spirituality to help here? (Journey over distination) Does your family/community have Male Role Model who have created their own goals or is it pretty much, use one's smarts to follow the "conventional wisdom" about how to suceed? (books: Smart Boys, A whole New Mind)
If you can bear to spill the beans, I'll try hard to round up some parental experience. You may not be able to change the world, but you can sometimes win by changing your perspective!
Re: perfectionism - 01/24/06 07:27 AM
My son is only six years old.Punishments and bribary once worked,but not any more.His interest are reading ,math,iceskating likes to collect things.He had prefectionism issues since the age of two.I didnt think there were books on perfectionism for childern so young. Besides i thought he would grow out of it.He attends arabic weekend school with a class of childern between the ages of 6-8.He loves it.
He has never been tested. infact I really dont know if he is gifted.The school does not want to test him and giving me alot of BS.They think I should spank him instead.They think that by sending him home numerous of times,he may learn a lesson.
At the begining of this year he would pick and choose what to participate in.Now its all day refusal in every subject at school.He is completly withdrawn at school.However in arabic school and at home he is motivated and doing wonderfull.Yes I am having alot of emtional processing with him, and the whole entire school.
I understand that he may not be gifted. infact I hope this is something he'll grow out of and hopefully soon.This is too much drama for me to handle.But his behavior in class is not getting better. Now if this child is bored in class and would have to repeat the year again, things are going to get really...bad!!!!!!!!!
The reason that I joined this forum is because I think that it is possible that he is, and maybe by communicating with other parent I could have a better idea of why he behaves this way in school.Ok I understand that he is bored, he knows all the anwers.Why not get it over with and do it?
Personality:cleaver, private,quiet, fearless of people or punishments,hides emotions very well,wants to be in controll of unwanting surroundings or interest.needs to be spoken to with respect,brief to the point,determined, perfectionist,shy in a sense which may sometimes be seen as rude.sweet ,jokefull, very......... honest,happy.Test people to see what he can get away with,does not like distractions,thrives on complaments.uhhhhhhhI think thats all?
He has never been tested. infact I really dont know if he is gifted.The school does not want to test him and giving me alot of BS.They think I should spank him instead.They think that by sending him home numerous of times,he may learn a lesson.
At the begining of this year he would pick and choose what to participate in.Now its all day refusal in every subject at school.He is completly withdrawn at school.However in arabic school and at home he is motivated and doing wonderfull.Yes I am having alot of emtional processing with him, and the whole entire school.
I understand that he may not be gifted. infact I hope this is something he'll grow out of and hopefully soon.This is too much drama for me to handle.But his behavior in class is not getting better. Now if this child is bored in class and would have to repeat the year again, things are going to get really...bad!!!!!!!!!
The reason that I joined this forum is because I think that it is possible that he is, and maybe by communicating with other parent I could have a better idea of why he behaves this way in school.Ok I understand that he is bored, he knows all the anwers.Why not get it over with and do it?
Personality:cleaver, private,quiet, fearless of people or punishments,hides emotions very well,wants to be in controll of unwanting surroundings or interest.needs to be spoken to with respect,brief to the point,determined, perfectionist,shy in a sense which may sometimes be seen as rude.sweet ,jokefull, very......... honest,happy.Test people to see what he can get away with,does not like distractions,thrives on complaments.uhhhhhhhI think thats all?
Re: perfectionism - 01/24/06 01:40 PM
Well done. Welcome home. Are you in public school or private? If in public, please put in writing that you are concerned that he may have a disability and formally request he be tested - that worked in my state anyway. 6 is old enough to be tested, but if the school does it then they may believe it. If the school won't test, the cheapest way into it is the regional talent searches. Alternatives are homeschooling or afterschooling. Will your son sit down with you and show you what he can do with a Math book or website?
"All day long refusal in every subject" is bad, very bad. Are you in a position where you can just show up at school and calmly refuse to leave until you speak to the principle? I bring a book and box of kleenex.
If money is avalible for testing post to see where you should go - if your son can do school work 2 or 3 grades above his agemates, he may well be highly gifted, which takes experienced testers to properly access.
I am so sorry for your situation...
"All day long refusal in every subject" is bad, very bad. Are you in a position where you can just show up at school and calmly refuse to leave until you speak to the principle? I bring a book and box of kleenex.
If money is avalible for testing post to see where you should go - if your son can do school work 2 or 3 grades above his agemates, he may well be highly gifted, which takes experienced testers to properly access.
I am so sorry for your situation...
Re: perfectionism - 01/24/06 02:41 PM
A book that was helpful to us is: Freeing Our Families from Perfectionism by Thomas S. Greenspon (Paperback - December 2001).
My daughter's exhibition of boredom was placing her head on the desk and being tired. This made her appear less negative but it was difficult to deal with. She simply shuts down. She is most definitely gifted.
The perfectionism came up elsewhere. I was really shocked when the book was reccommended to me because I do not see myself as a perfectionist; why family? It does a good job of explaining some thought processes and I certainly found myself nodding my head and learning some copint/parenting stragegies.
My daughter's exhibition of boredom was placing her head on the desk and being tired. This made her appear less negative but it was difficult to deal with. She simply shuts down. She is most definitely gifted.
The perfectionism came up elsewhere. I was really shocked when the book was reccommended to me because I do not see myself as a perfectionist; why family? It does a good job of explaining some thought processes and I certainly found myself nodding my head and learning some copint/parenting stragegies.
Re: perfectionism - 01/24/06 02:48 PM
> Ok I understand that he is bored, he knows all the anwers.Why not get it over with and do it?
I used to say the same to our son. Then in time, it hit me that if I went somewhere every day and was asked to do elementary (for me) things each and every day, I'd finally pitch a fit, too. Picture YOURSELF being sent back to K and being asked to write the way Chris does and create art that looks like Chris's.
Have you given any thought to homeschooling? I am a HUGE advocate of this method no matter what the child's IQ, but especially in cases where a kid is in school and not learning nor having fun. My guess is your kid hasn't murdered anyone or committed any other felonies, so I don't think he should be forced to be in an institution he doesn't wish to be in, saying there is another option (and perhaps there isn't as I don't know your situation).
And if he stays at this school, might I suggest taking in a Picasso from his cubic period and showing it to the teacher and asking if it looks like the art Chris is producing. Odds are most teachers before Picasso's work became famous would have been horrified at such work...what a fragmented mind, this child must be sent for counseling, blah, blah, blah. Then ask her if Stephen King and JK Rowlings have the same style. Note that authors all have their own style, just as all artists who actually make a name for themselves do, and to try to mimic anyone else's work will make you but one thing - a copier. We have Xerox machines for that.
As for perfectionism, I first spotted this in our son when he was learning to write...he would make a mistake and keep erasing and erasing and I took the paper and crumbled it up and threw it in the trash.
Call me Mommy Dearest, but I said to him, "Look, with all the time you've spent trying to make something PERFECT, you could have produced a number of things that would have been good enough and you will find that in most, but not all, things in life, good enough is by definition good enough and the more good you have, the better, and you'll have less good if you concentrate on perfection. The thing you need to develop is the skill in deciding whether something truly deserves perfection or if a few flaws will do just fine. When your mom tosses your paper in the trash for spending too much time trying to be perfect, it's a sign that you had an error in judgment that time. But thankfully, there is always next time." I never had to throw a paper in the trash again, and his work went on to be "perfectly" fine (at 13, he graduated from college with two degrees; he never got anything less than an A in any class involving writing).
Perfectionism is a dangerous thing, as people can feel they are worthless (especially during the teen years, it seems) if they feel they aren't measuring up to expectations, their own or those of others, and some resort to drastic measures which can't be reversed. A guy I dated while in college (he was a graduate student) stole cyanide from the lab and killed himself and to this day, my guess is that it was for fear of getting a B in one of his classes (others might guess it was me, but I had only dated him a few times and our first date was only 3 weeks prior to his death and I doubt I am quite that deadly...it's not like I ever crumbled any of this guy's papers and threw them in the trash!). I've never even told our son to do the "best he can do" as frankly, I doubt he'll often need to do that and also that he'll be more productive *and* happier if he does a bunch of things well rather than try to do one thing eminently, though we do know eminent people who do many things well and if people have the drive for that, more power to them, so long as they stay mentally stable. Despite my raising our son this way, he has a mind of his own and still aspires to someday do something eminently well, but hopefully, he'll cut himself some slack if he wakes up someday and realizes the odds are greatly stacked against him (including my having parents who don't care if he ever become eminent).
Good luck to you and your son, whatever you do.
I used to say the same to our son. Then in time, it hit me that if I went somewhere every day and was asked to do elementary (for me) things each and every day, I'd finally pitch a fit, too. Picture YOURSELF being sent back to K and being asked to write the way Chris does and create art that looks like Chris's.
Have you given any thought to homeschooling? I am a HUGE advocate of this method no matter what the child's IQ, but especially in cases where a kid is in school and not learning nor having fun. My guess is your kid hasn't murdered anyone or committed any other felonies, so I don't think he should be forced to be in an institution he doesn't wish to be in, saying there is another option (and perhaps there isn't as I don't know your situation).
And if he stays at this school, might I suggest taking in a Picasso from his cubic period and showing it to the teacher and asking if it looks like the art Chris is producing. Odds are most teachers before Picasso's work became famous would have been horrified at such work...what a fragmented mind, this child must be sent for counseling, blah, blah, blah. Then ask her if Stephen King and JK Rowlings have the same style. Note that authors all have their own style, just as all artists who actually make a name for themselves do, and to try to mimic anyone else's work will make you but one thing - a copier. We have Xerox machines for that.
As for perfectionism, I first spotted this in our son when he was learning to write...he would make a mistake and keep erasing and erasing and I took the paper and crumbled it up and threw it in the trash.
Call me Mommy Dearest, but I said to him, "Look, with all the time you've spent trying to make something PERFECT, you could have produced a number of things that would have been good enough and you will find that in most, but not all, things in life, good enough is by definition good enough and the more good you have, the better, and you'll have less good if you concentrate on perfection. The thing you need to develop is the skill in deciding whether something truly deserves perfection or if a few flaws will do just fine. When your mom tosses your paper in the trash for spending too much time trying to be perfect, it's a sign that you had an error in judgment that time. But thankfully, there is always next time." I never had to throw a paper in the trash again, and his work went on to be "perfectly" fine (at 13, he graduated from college with two degrees; he never got anything less than an A in any class involving writing).Perfectionism is a dangerous thing, as people can feel they are worthless (especially during the teen years, it seems) if they feel they aren't measuring up to expectations, their own or those of others, and some resort to drastic measures which can't be reversed. A guy I dated while in college (he was a graduate student) stole cyanide from the lab and killed himself and to this day, my guess is that it was for fear of getting a B in one of his classes (others might guess it was me, but I had only dated him a few times and our first date was only 3 weeks prior to his death and I doubt I am quite that deadly...it's not like I ever crumbled any of this guy's papers and threw them in the trash!). I've never even told our son to do the "best he can do" as frankly, I doubt he'll often need to do that and also that he'll be more productive *and* happier if he does a bunch of things well rather than try to do one thing eminently, though we do know eminent people who do many things well and if people have the drive for that, more power to them, so long as they stay mentally stable. Despite my raising our son this way, he has a mind of his own and still aspires to someday do something eminently well, but hopefully, he'll cut himself some slack if he wakes up someday and realizes the odds are greatly stacked against him (including my having parents who don't care if he ever become eminent).
Good luck to you and your son, whatever you do.
Re: perfectionism - 01/24/06 02:49 PM
Ha, and to show my lack of perfectionism, my "name" was meant to be "Yet another mom"! Oh well!
Re: perfectionism - 01/24/06 06:39 PM
You know, my son was really displaying perfectionist tendencies early on, before a year even. He is almost 6 now, and we are home schooling, but one thing I have really learned to focus on with him is not being perfect or producing a "perfect product" but rather "Give it your best. The best you have right now, and realize that "perfect" is not the goal".
In my search for peace with perfectionism flylady.net really points out how perfectionism has taken over much of our lives.....
Anyhow, my son, who sooooo many things come sooooo easy for him and he rarely struggles with anything just started violin and was frustrated that things aren't "perfect". This had been a great time to reiterate "Give this your best, the best you have right now...attitude means so much more than a perfect product".
I have to echo the comments though about asking him to attend to things that are way below him. I couldn't imagine asking my son to sit in a kindergarten class, as he is in no way anywhere near kindergarten level, not handwriting, reading, social skills, and definitely not math! It would be degrading to him to even suggest it, but his age is that of a kindergartner. We chose to home school, and I couldn't imagine a better situation for us, but it may not be for everyone. Have your son tested, learn all you can about his strengths, weaknesses, abilites, learning styles, then develop a plan of action to best meet his individual academic and social needs. If this teacher and this school don't meet that, then explore your options. Mostly, follow your gut. Give it the best you have right now, and feel good about it!
My 2 cents.
L
In my search for peace with perfectionism flylady.net really points out how perfectionism has taken over much of our lives.....
Anyhow, my son, who sooooo many things come sooooo easy for him and he rarely struggles with anything just started violin and was frustrated that things aren't "perfect". This had been a great time to reiterate "Give this your best, the best you have right now...attitude means so much more than a perfect product".
I have to echo the comments though about asking him to attend to things that are way below him. I couldn't imagine asking my son to sit in a kindergarten class, as he is in no way anywhere near kindergarten level, not handwriting, reading, social skills, and definitely not math! It would be degrading to him to even suggest it, but his age is that of a kindergartner. We chose to home school, and I couldn't imagine a better situation for us, but it may not be for everyone. Have your son tested, learn all you can about his strengths, weaknesses, abilites, learning styles, then develop a plan of action to best meet his individual academic and social needs. If this teacher and this school don't meet that, then explore your options. Mostly, follow your gut. Give it the best you have right now, and feel good about it!
My 2 cents.
L
Re: perfectionism - 01/24/06 08:03 PM
My perfectionist is now 12. When she was a preschooler I signed her up for piano - something I knew it would take years to be really good at. Here was something that you could only do successfully with lots of practice, and furthermore, it was okay to do it "good enough" (of course it was important to find a piano teacher who was not going to demand perfection. We don't do recitals or competitions. We just play and learn music theory.) This also taught her empathy - this was what it felt like for other kids when they were learning how to read, or add, or whatever.
I also signed her up for soccer. I figured a team sport was an opportunity to run around, but alone you could not succeed. And you being perfect does not drive the perfect outcome.
We also celebrate Bs (okay, not very often) but when they come home we have a party - finally an area where she has an opportunity to learn something.
Discipline is another area to be careful with - she is far harder on herself than I would ever be. When she has crossed a line, I gently call her on it and then back away. After a short time I invariably have to encourage her to forgive herself and move on - she will otherwise stew on the point forever!
The most interesting thing to me was to learn what the results of perfectionism are in an older child (or even an adult.) Procrastination, not applying yourself and giving up. These are traits not easily overcome as an adult - they are worth getting after in our youngsters.
A child cannot learn to overcome perfectionism in an environment in which he is can be effortlessly perfect. He needs a challenging environment to begin with. Then he needs plenty of encouragement to take a risk and try something he may not quite understand. And then lots of applause for the babysteps he takes while he figures it out.
Good luck - it is hard work, but it is so important.
I also signed her up for soccer. I figured a team sport was an opportunity to run around, but alone you could not succeed. And you being perfect does not drive the perfect outcome.
We also celebrate Bs (okay, not very often) but when they come home we have a party - finally an area where she has an opportunity to learn something.
Discipline is another area to be careful with - she is far harder on herself than I would ever be. When she has crossed a line, I gently call her on it and then back away. After a short time I invariably have to encourage her to forgive herself and move on - she will otherwise stew on the point forever!
The most interesting thing to me was to learn what the results of perfectionism are in an older child (or even an adult.) Procrastination, not applying yourself and giving up. These are traits not easily overcome as an adult - they are worth getting after in our youngsters.
A child cannot learn to overcome perfectionism in an environment in which he is can be effortlessly perfect. He needs a challenging environment to begin with. Then he needs plenty of encouragement to take a risk and try something he may not quite understand. And then lots of applause for the babysteps he takes while he figures it out.
Good luck - it is hard work, but it is so important.
Re: perfectionism - 01/25/06 05:56 AM
I asked DS9 to speculate on an alternate reality where a mom like me pays money for every "B" on the child's report card - when he was 7. He was horrified. (I would not have even suggested this if I had realised how misplaced he was in his classroom.) It did stop him agitating for money for "A"s. The point at the time was that I wanted him to stop pouring all his energy into the schoolwork and spend "some" on being a good classroom citizen. Part of what fueled his perfectionism at the time was that he was placed in a situation where he could not possibly get 100% all the time due to the work being "too easy" to muster attention onto. Plus the teacher was looking for the "next appropriate developmental step" which has never fit DS9.
Re: perfectionism - 01/26/06 08:02 AM
Thank you all for sharing with me all this great information on perfectionism.
I use to have alot of faith for public education.But now I find myself questioning their
judgement.I've considered homeschooling and left it as an open option.I'm looking into other schools in my area ,and in the process trying to get my son an IEP ( one way or another).I can not take him out of a school environment untill I know what I'm up agaist.
(Trinity) My son reads 3rd grade level books,in one day completed all second grade games on math website. He picks up math very fast.My son has been ready for 3rd grade math,But I havent let him move on.He just picks it up too fast and I fear he may forget what he's already learned.
A few months ago I secretly video taped him working at home and turned it in to the school psycholoist.She has not gotten back to me yet!
I use to have alot of faith for public education.But now I find myself questioning their
judgement.I've considered homeschooling and left it as an open option.I'm looking into other schools in my area ,and in the process trying to get my son an IEP ( one way or another).I can not take him out of a school environment untill I know what I'm up agaist.
(Trinity) My son reads 3rd grade level books,in one day completed all second grade games on math website. He picks up math very fast.My son has been ready for 3rd grade math,But I havent let him move on.He just picks it up too fast and I fear he may forget what he's already learned.
A few months ago I secretly video taped him working at home and turned it in to the school psycholoist.She has not gotten back to me yet!
Re: perfectionism - 01/26/06 08:20 AM
What was this teacher looking into as the next developmental step? OH,I know how ignorant some teacher's can be!
Re: perfectionism - 01/26/06 09:39 AM
Deeyana - I'm so glad you're finding your time here useful. I don't mean to blame any teacher, there's an old expression: "When you hear hoof beat, don't think: Zebra!" which has stood me in good stead many times - except regarding my own son! LOL!
You may find it interesting to know that my own personal definition of gifted is - thriving on learning material that is one year ahead of that which is appropriate for their age mates. Highly or Profoundly gifted Zebras thrive on material 2, 3 or more ahead of their agemates. It's not a perfect definition because it can leave out twice exceptional kids and one's (like myself) who are highly creative or have gifts that aren't valued in this moment of society. But if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and acts like a duck - be prepared to feed it duck chow!
In your case duck chow is math and reading and collecting. So feed your sweet little duck - he needs all the support he can get right now, and your offering him 3rd grade math will signal to him that at his Mom, at least understands him. Keep making thoses videos.
Your son may "forget" what he has learned so quickly, but this doesn't worry me at all. I had forgotten most of my 4th grade level math, but I relearned it again very quickly. I hesitated for the longest time in afterschooling for fear of making the classroom experience even worse - I think that was a mistake. I hadn't fully grasped that my kid was a Zebra, and that it wasn't something that I had somehow "caused."
These Zebra kids need to learn new things, with an intensity that is difficult to overestimate. My son recently told me that the reason he was so poorly behaved in 2nd grade was that every second he was hoping to learn something new, and I know how hard it is to sit still when I'm waiting for something fantastic to happen and how cranky I get when I keep getting dissapointed over and over. He reports that now he is well behaved because he know what to expect at school (that is, hardly ever learning anything new!)
Anyway, these Zebra kids learn in their own ways - some learn Calculus before they memorize their Multiplication Tables. One of the best things about participating in the Davidson Young Scholars Program, for me, is that I am starting to get an appreciation for normal Zebra behavior.
Have you started to apply to the Young Scholar's program? If not I reccomend you do. Here's a link that says more about protfolio applications http://www.ditdservices.org/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=71&NavID=0_34
Which brings me around to the question of testing. What are the current barriers to you having your son tested? What are the pros and cons, for you, in waiting for the school to do the testing? This is a key area to but your mind on, so please write back and let us know what your personal situation is like. I have ideas for every circumstance (you may have noticed LOL)
One more little idea - you mentioned that your son like collections. That's excellent! You may find a way in to his confidence by attending with him some "Adult" or "All Age" groups that focus on his favorite collection. Locally we have reptile hobbyist, geological hobbyists, and coin hobbyists who have meeting about once a month.Any time you can get your son into a all-age group of like minded people you provide him with hope for the future and "duck chow."
These Zebra kids can be tough to raise - one of my girlfriends reminds me that "tough to raise kids" grow up into some of the most interesting adults. (I repeat this to myself - often!)
(((hugs)))) Trinity
You may find it interesting to know that my own personal definition of gifted is - thriving on learning material that is one year ahead of that which is appropriate for their age mates. Highly or Profoundly gifted Zebras thrive on material 2, 3 or more ahead of their agemates. It's not a perfect definition because it can leave out twice exceptional kids and one's (like myself) who are highly creative or have gifts that aren't valued in this moment of society. But if it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, and acts like a duck - be prepared to feed it duck chow!
In your case duck chow is math and reading and collecting. So feed your sweet little duck - he needs all the support he can get right now, and your offering him 3rd grade math will signal to him that at his Mom, at least understands him. Keep making thoses videos.
Your son may "forget" what he has learned so quickly, but this doesn't worry me at all. I had forgotten most of my 4th grade level math, but I relearned it again very quickly. I hesitated for the longest time in afterschooling for fear of making the classroom experience even worse - I think that was a mistake. I hadn't fully grasped that my kid was a Zebra, and that it wasn't something that I had somehow "caused."
These Zebra kids need to learn new things, with an intensity that is difficult to overestimate. My son recently told me that the reason he was so poorly behaved in 2nd grade was that every second he was hoping to learn something new, and I know how hard it is to sit still when I'm waiting for something fantastic to happen and how cranky I get when I keep getting dissapointed over and over. He reports that now he is well behaved because he know what to expect at school (that is, hardly ever learning anything new!)
Anyway, these Zebra kids learn in their own ways - some learn Calculus before they memorize their Multiplication Tables. One of the best things about participating in the Davidson Young Scholars Program, for me, is that I am starting to get an appreciation for normal Zebra behavior.
Have you started to apply to the Young Scholar's program? If not I reccomend you do. Here's a link that says more about protfolio applications http:/
Which brings me around to the question of testing. What are the current barriers to you having your son tested? What are the pros and cons, for you, in waiting for the school to do the testing? This is a key area to but your mind on, so please write back and let us know what your personal situation is like. I have ideas for every circumstance (you may have noticed LOL)
One more little idea - you mentioned that your son like collections. That's excellent! You may find a way in to his confidence by attending with him some "Adult" or "All Age" groups that focus on his favorite collection. Locally we have reptile hobbyist, geological hobbyists, and coin hobbyists who have meeting about once a month.Any time you can get your son into a all-age group of like minded people you provide him with hope for the future and "duck chow."
These Zebra kids can be tough to raise - one of my girlfriends reminds me that "tough to raise kids" grow up into some of the most interesting adults. (I repeat this to myself - often!)
(((hugs)))) Trinity
Re: perfectionism - 01/27/06 06:02 PM
I have struggled with perfectionism all my life and also see it in my daughter, a young nine year old 5th grader. After skipping third grade and homeschooling for fourth, she is in a very rigorous prep school and doing great. She is challenged for the first time ever in school. I have seen both sides of her perfectionism: being bored and will not try and now, striving to be absolutely perfect at everything. She brought home a unit exam, 110 questions on the history of the conquest of the Inca and Mayan Indians by Spanish explorers. She missed 2 questions, had an A+ and the highest grade by 15 points, but can only focus on what she missed!
I agree that modeling our own mistakes is a great stratagey. I also find that celebrating hard work for its own reward is very important, not focusing soley on the outcome. I never ask about test grades anymore, I try to ask something like "was you preparation adequate, or do we need to find another approach". I see the grades when she brings them home on Friday. This seems to have helped a bit lately, at least!
My perfectionism is different, but the roots are the same!
I second the recommendation about the Young Scholars program. It has changed our lives!
Susan in Reno
I agree that modeling our own mistakes is a great stratagey. I also find that celebrating hard work for its own reward is very important, not focusing soley on the outcome. I never ask about test grades anymore, I try to ask something like "was you preparation adequate, or do we need to find another approach". I see the grades when she brings them home on Friday. This seems to have helped a bit lately, at least!
My perfectionism is different, but the roots are the same!
I second the recommendation about the Young Scholars program. It has changed our lives!
Susan in Reno
Re: perfectionism - 02/02/06 09:37 AM
Deeyana -
I hope today is a good day in your family. My son, although often a lot of fun to be around, has been going through a bad patch where all the adults around him want to "give him a good shaking" self-included, sorry to say.
I started in on myself with "where did I go wrong," and then reminded myself of the topic here: perfectionism. My goal is to be the perfect parent - and leave the outcome in Other Hands. Guess What? I'm not perfect. I have to find a way to live with that - Yuck.
Meanwhile I'm afraid to check my email for fear it's another Adult in DS's life complaining about his behavior.
Meanwhile I looked up this link to Deborah Ruff's "Levels of Giftedness" http://www.dirhody.com/discanner/levels.htm
and tried to recognise my son from is babysteps. I remembered that you are still waiting for testing to confirm that your DS is even gifted. perhaps this link will help you get an idea of "what kind of Zebra" you've got. It helped me understand why, even with other gifted kids, doing enriched material, my son is bored and acting out.
Still not spanking - Trinity
I hope today is a good day in your family. My son, although often a lot of fun to be around, has been going through a bad patch where all the adults around him want to "give him a good shaking" self-included, sorry to say.
I started in on myself with "where did I go wrong," and then reminded myself of the topic here: perfectionism. My goal is to be the perfect parent - and leave the outcome in Other Hands. Guess What? I'm not perfect. I have to find a way to live with that - Yuck.
Meanwhile I'm afraid to check my email for fear it's another Adult in DS's life complaining about his behavior.
Meanwhile I looked up this link to Deborah Ruff's "Levels of Giftedness" http:/
and tried to recognise my son from is babysteps. I remembered that you are still waiting for testing to confirm that your DS is even gifted. perhaps this link will help you get an idea of "what kind of Zebra" you've got. It helped me understand why, even with other gifted kids, doing enriched material, my son is bored and acting out.
Still not spanking - Trinity
Re: perfectionism - 02/02/06 01:50 PM
Thank you sooooo muchy Trinity, I am very greatfull.this is exactly what I need to figure out.
Re: perfectionism - 02/03/06 10:26 AM
Deeyana - Trinity
Trinity
Re: perfectionism - 03/24/06 01:42 PM
Hi Deeyana -
I'm thinking of your DS6. I hope he is thriving and that all is well in your life.
DS9 is having his ups and downs. He's trying to figure out how not to let a kid who seems intent on upsetting him "get to him." I'm trying to frame it as a "good challenge." We'll see.
Love and More Love
(It seems that this is what's needed)
Trinity
I'm thinking of your DS6. I hope he is thriving and that all is well in your life.
DS9 is having his ups and downs. He's trying to figure out how not to let a kid who seems intent on upsetting him "get to him." I'm trying to frame it as a "good challenge." We'll see.
Love and More Love
(It seems that this is what's needed)
Trinity
Re: perfectionism - 03/25/06 02:46 PM
HI Trinity
After all this wait. They tested my son to see if he qualifies for an IEP testing.Which he did not!The good thing is that he does not have any disorders or a LEARNING DISABILITY! Which I already knew. All they had to offer me is stickers for good classroom behavior!
I guess my only option is to have him tested privately.After reading about Joximom $15 GT test,I still have faith.
After all this wait. They tested my son to see if he qualifies for an IEP testing.Which he did not!The good thing is that he does not have any disorders or a LEARNING DISABILITY! Which I already knew. All they had to offer me is stickers for good classroom behavior!
I guess my only option is to have him tested privately.After reading about Joximom $15 GT test,I still have faith.
Re: perfectionism - 03/27/06 05:52 AM
That sounds like my January Meeting with the School. While I was relieved, and I found that it helped clear my head, I was unsatisfied. Did they throw the AHDH diagnosis at you? congradulations if not. Did they do any IQ or Achievment Type test during their IEP testing?
I am curious how you see your son from the Ruf Estimated Levels Perspective. What did you learn from that? Are you comfortable to share that with us? I think it will help us advise/sympatise.
Either way, know that my hopes and prayer are with you and your family.
Trinity
I am curious how you see your son from the Ruf Estimated Levels Perspective. What did you learn from that? Are you comfortable to share that with us? I think it will help us advise/sympatise.
Either way, know that my hopes and prayer are with you and your family.
Trinity
Re: perfectionism - 03/27/06 01:51 PM
Trinity
They did try to throw the possible ADHD disorder early on in the year. My husband and I approached the school with the request for GT testing.They said that he didn't look gifted but that he may be ADHD!I was so insulted,here I am telling them that he needs accelerated classes and they tell me that maybe he is just mentally ill!
Little did they know that he attended week end Arabic school. Which is another classroom situation of about 30 children.The week-end school wrote a letter stating that they were not experiening the same problems. And that he is one of the best performing kids in the classroom. so much so that he is put to help other children.
They did give him a psycologicial test,he scored 115. They also gave him a IQ test,which they did NOT give me the scores.They only told me there was nothing in the IQ test to worry about. And that the test indicated that he didn't qualify for any special ED services! Every time I will bring up the IQ test at this meeting,they would change the subject very quickly. They also told me that although my son doesn't do any kind of class work (along with sometimes test) that he will not be retained! This test was NOT an IEP,It was a pretest to see if they need to do the IEP TEST.
This year is like THE TWILIGHT ZONE.Nothing makes any sence.My son is on strike at school and comes home to ask if I have something new for him to learn about! He doesn't read at school, But comes home and reads non-stop.However he clearly tells me that he doesn't want to be homeschooled! I don't get it!
On the ruf estimate he sounds to me like a level 2 with some of the charateristics of math and reading of level 3.(Except for the early vocabulary.) He was half deaf up until last year. He perfected the art of reading lips and went undetected for years!
Is what I'm experiencing with him and the school normal? Did you really have a similiar experience? Am I crazy for even thinking that he is gifted? I'm all ears for any advice!
~Deeyana~
They did try to throw the possible ADHD disorder early on in the year. My husband and I approached the school with the request for GT testing.They said that he didn't look gifted but that he may be ADHD!I was so insulted,here I am telling them that he needs accelerated classes and they tell me that maybe he is just mentally ill!
Little did they know that he attended week end Arabic school. Which is another classroom situation of about 30 children.The week-end school wrote a letter stating that they were not experiening the same problems. And that he is one of the best performing kids in the classroom. so much so that he is put to help other children.
They did give him a psycologicial test,he scored 115. They also gave him a IQ test,which they did NOT give me the scores.They only told me there was nothing in the IQ test to worry about. And that the test indicated that he didn't qualify for any special ED services! Every time I will bring up the IQ test at this meeting,they would change the subject very quickly. They also told me that although my son doesn't do any kind of class work (along with sometimes test) that he will not be retained! This test was NOT an IEP,It was a pretest to see if they need to do the IEP TEST.
This year is like THE TWILIGHT ZONE.Nothing makes any sence.My son is on strike at school and comes home to ask if I have something new for him to learn about! He doesn't read at school, But comes home and reads non-stop.However he clearly tells me that he doesn't want to be homeschooled! I don't get it!
On the ruf estimate he sounds to me like a level 2 with some of the charateristics of math and reading of level 3.(Except for the early vocabulary.) He was half deaf up until last year. He perfected the art of reading lips and went undetected for years!
Is what I'm experiencing with him and the school normal? Did you really have a similiar experience? Am I crazy for even thinking that he is gifted? I'm all ears for any advice!
~Deeyana~
Re: perfectionism - 03/27/06 06:38 PM
I also have to return to his school to sign some papers. These papers state that I can not request for ESE testing within the next two years.
I will be talking to the guidance counselor who gave him the IQ part of the test. Maybe she will be able to give me the scores.
I will be talking to the guidance counselor who gave him the IQ part of the test. Maybe she will be able to give me the scores.
Re: perfectionism - 04/06/06 09:21 AM
((worried sad face))
Oh! How did the meeting go? Did they give you the test scores? No wonder you feel crazy! The situation is crazy!
I'm praying that your son gets a wonderful teacher next year who "gets him" - that's really all it took for my son to take a big step forward.
Are you considering homeschooling?
sincerely-trinity
Oh! How did the meeting go? Did they give you the test scores? No wonder you feel crazy! The situation is crazy!
I'm praying that your son gets a wonderful teacher next year who "gets him" - that's really all it took for my son to take a big step forward.
Are you considering homeschooling?
sincerely-trinity
Re: perfectionism - 04/10/06 09:58 AM
Today I recieved the IQ scores.He scored well above average in mathematics and math calculation skills;and low in language. They told me that there is a big possibility that he is gifted. But we must first wait until his classroom performance improves before they can consider GT testing.They also recommened for us to apply to a mathematical elementary school or a magnet school.(big waiting list)
The test given was the Wood****-Johnson lll Tests of Achievement. Does any one know,how accurate this test is in determining different levels of giftness?
The test given was the Wood****-Johnson lll Tests of Achievement. Does any one know,how accurate this test is in determining different levels of giftness?
Re: perfectionism - 04/12/06 10:12 AM
WJIII - alright, a good first step! finally!
If "They" say that there is a big possibility that he is gifted - then Horray! I got such a laugh out of the way the scores are reported - grade equivlent is to be taken with a grain of salt - it's deviance from the mean they are measuring, not grade level!
Do you have the strength to apply for the math school and the magnet school? I'm cheering for you!
Now, about waiting until classroom performance improves...can you ask to see where it is written that this is the policy? I haven't gotten far with this very issue, but I think it's worth it to push here. Perhaps with the scores someone will listen?
Here's my newest idea for my DS9
What about the depression angle? A kid who "refuses" to do the work might be presenting kid-version signs of depression. (there is such a thing as appropriate to the situation depression) perhaps with depression as an explaination for the behavior, you could get past the "waiting for behavior to improve" and into the differentiated instruction.
Whatever you decide to do, I am sending you my hopes and prayers.
Trin
If "They" say that there is a big possibility that he is gifted - then Horray! I got such a laugh out of the way the scores are reported - grade equivlent is to be taken with a grain of salt - it's deviance from the mean they are measuring, not grade level!
Do you have the strength to apply for the math school and the magnet school? I'm cheering for you!
Now, about waiting until classroom performance improves...can you ask to see where it is written that this is the policy? I haven't gotten far with this very issue, but I think it's worth it to push here. Perhaps with the scores someone will listen?
Here's my newest idea for my DS9
What about the depression angle? A kid who "refuses" to do the work might be presenting kid-version signs of depression. (there is such a thing as appropriate to the situation depression) perhaps with depression as an explaination for the behavior, you could get past the "waiting for behavior to improve" and into the differentiated instruction.
Whatever you decide to do, I am sending you my hopes and prayers.
Trin
Re: perfectionism - 04/12/06 02:11 PM
Hello Trin
I found this last meeting very odd.The conversation of possible giftness did not arise until I requested a copy of the WJ-lll results.Then they talked about his personality in school.How he wants control of what he wants to learn. How he does not like the repeative work.They mention that he is a very creative,and perfectionistic child.They also said that they never meet a child with such a stronge charactor.(Their reaction was as if they were talking about a child from a diferent planet) They also told me that in kindergarten, he was being pulled out and put in a first grade class for reading! In which he did really good. Why they never mentioned any of these things before?
The depression angle sounds too risky for me.I have read that children with depression are either medicated or put in special education.There the work will be MORE easy!I am definetly going to apply to a mathematical school.Wish me luck!
(How is your DS9.I hope he is doing good ,both home and school.)
Love
~Deeyana~
I found this last meeting very odd.The conversation of possible giftness did not arise until I requested a copy of the WJ-lll results.Then they talked about his personality in school.How he wants control of what he wants to learn. How he does not like the repeative work.They mention that he is a very creative,and perfectionistic child.They also said that they never meet a child with such a stronge charactor.(Their reaction was as if they were talking about a child from a diferent planet) They also told me that in kindergarten, he was being pulled out and put in a first grade class for reading! In which he did really good. Why they never mentioned any of these things before?
The depression angle sounds too risky for me.I have read that children with depression are either medicated or put in special education.There the work will be MORE easy!I am definetly going to apply to a mathematical school.Wish me luck!
(How is your DS9.I hope he is doing good ,both home and school.)
Love
~Deeyana~
Re: perfectionism - 04/17/06 05:22 AM
I'm wishing you luck in the mathematical school. Your son sure sounds like a perfectly normal gifted kid. Especially about wanting to learn what he wants to learn at his own pace! The strong character part is a "normal" part of giftedness, although not every gifted child has it. Boys, especially, seem less able to "hide" at this age, although usually they ARE hiding quite a bit, just not enough to escape notice.
I celebrate that they moved your son for reading. I marvel at your not being told, but similar things have happened to us.
One our end, it is spring vacation! The weather is in the 60s, and the sun is shining. DS9's spirits are high, and we aren't thinking about school at all! Yippee!
I celebrate that they moved your son for reading. I marvel at your not being told, but similar things have happened to us.
One our end, it is spring vacation! The weather is in the 60s, and the sun is shining. DS9's spirits are high, and we aren't thinking about school at all! Yippee!
Re: perfectionism - 06/16/06 11:39 AM
Deeyana Dear -
How are things going? Did your son get into the Math School?
DS9 just spent had a blast apending a day at the local Montessori school, shadowing a 6th grader. (I just insisted on a grade skip for the evaluation.) I'm feeling hopeful since they have multiage program for 6th through 8th. (I don't imagine that he could stay there the whole 3 years, but at this point one or two good years are the goal.)
School ends Wednesday. It was a very long year for me! The best part was DS9 picking up a musical instrument, and finally becoming a touch typist.
Smiles and Hugs -Trin
How are things going? Did your son get into the Math School?
DS9 just spent had a blast apending a day at the local Montessori school, shadowing a 6th grader. (I just insisted on a grade skip for the evaluation.) I'm feeling hopeful since they have multiage program for 6th through 8th. (I don't imagine that he could stay there the whole 3 years, but at this point one or two good years are the goal.)
School ends Wednesday. It was a very long year for me! The best part was DS9 picking up a musical instrument, and finally becoming a touch typist.
Smiles and Hugs -Trin
Re: perfectionism - 07/04/06 07:21 AM
I'm not sure how far you've come Deeyana since March Deeyana, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.
In writing request a complete and full copy of your son's cumulative education file from the first day of attendance in the school district (including preschool or ecfe) to the last day of this recent school year. Mention that according to IDEA you have a right to a copy of that file including the RAW results of any test and assessment instrument the school district has every used on your son.
Here is what I sent to our school district that got appropriate results....
"It is my understanding of IDEA (section, item) that I have a right to copy of my son's cumulative education file. I request a complete and thorough copy be sent to me within the time limits set by IDEA. Please acknowledge this request either by sending me the complete files from beginning/date to current/date OR by send to me, in writing, the reason for the school districts denial of this request."
In writing request a complete and full copy of your son's cumulative education file from the first day of attendance in the school district (including preschool or ecfe) to the last day of this recent school year. Mention that according to IDEA you have a right to a copy of that file including the RAW results of any test and assessment instrument the school district has every used on your son.
Here is what I sent to our school district that got appropriate results....
"It is my understanding of IDEA (section, item) that I have a right to copy of my son's cumulative education file. I request a complete and thorough copy be sent to me within the time limits set by IDEA. Please acknowledge this request either by sending me the complete files from beginning/date to current/date OR by send to me, in writing, the reason for the school districts denial of this request."