Hello�I am new, and reaching out to those of you who obviously have experience with Aspergers, and maybe gitedness...sorry for the length of this, but i have a full description of everything I can think of about my little boy, as I hope it helps..I have simply had too many conflicting opinions. If someone could take the time to read about him, and give me their feelings, I would be so appreciative, as I have been overwhelmed (literally) with anxiety...

My son, who is 3 years, 4 months, seems so spectacular to me.
The main �red flag� for AS is the fact he can read (probably like a 5- year old, maybe a bit higher), and seems to still parallel play in nursery school. Our Pediatrician, without asking much details, suggested we read about AS when she saw him read a sign in her office, and asked us to find out about nursery school. (Her assessment, otherwise, was nil, so her opinion means nothing here). He had been there for about 5-6 months, and we were surprised he stood out as not really talking to the other kids. There were no other obvious behavior issues, but simply lack of socializing. He has a 1.5 year old brother, who is just coming to life language �wise, and he seems to engage him, but it�s hard to at how meaningful given their differences. He did do some baby talking for a while, but this is passing now, but he does it still, but can correct if asked to.He loves socializing with us, and family or most adults, and seems enamored with some kids older than himself. But I have been told that can be misleading with AS.

So, naturally, I have been obsessing about looking back, analyzing him, etc, and am lost as to when/if certain things are red flags. Here are some things I have concerns about:
Stims? At 2 (to late 2 years old), he was obsessed about playing with the steering wheel at the park, and would choose this first. He would really love it, make an occasional face while doing it, maybe a visual stim here and there ( a grimace with eyes closed, maybe partially open), but hard to say, and maybe play for 10 minutes or more, than move on, and maybe come back later. He loved steering wheels in general, noticing them on cars (including toys, especially when he was first getting into them), but never did any other repetitive spinning of objects, including at home. It seemed isolated from a repetitive spinning point of view.
With his new dinky cars, he loved to run them, one by one of the edge of the couch, and crash them onto the floor, maybe the wall. This eventually stopped, but was his favorite/main way of playing with them for some time. He has never lined things up, stacked obsessively, etc. He doesn't seem interested in dinky cars or trains much these days.

Currently, he likes to jump up and down 2-3 times, intermittently (for example, when playing, he will do some activity, maybe build a Lego thing, then stand up, jump a few times and go back to it; or maybe when bored, and in the kitchen with us, and kind of moving around doing things). He has never done this for a prolonged period, and it is not too often, but is daily, and more when he is excited or has some energy to burn.
Finally, he will occasionally, especially in afternoon, seem to want to run up and down the hall, from kitchen to front door, or in basement back and forth, maybe 5-10 times. He seems distractable when doing it, but likes to do it. I t seems he needs to just burn a little energy, but I am not totally sure. From my reading, I am having a hard time understanding when something is a �stim� or not. He has never flapped hands, twirled, used his hands in a funny way, verbally stimmed, etc. Just the above behaviors. He does like to "skip" sometimes when he runs.

His development seemed normal to us, but being first time parents, there has been little reference until the little brother came along, and he himself is just accelerating, trying to do everything his big bro does. Always had good eye contact, smiled early, babbled early,, responded to us, loved (and still loves) hugs and cuddling. He spoke words by one, progressed well, and now speaks in sentences which seem normal for his age. Sometimes a little disjointed in his wording, but he corrects himself quickly. He could count early, to 20 in his mid-2s, but we did a lot of counting especially going up stairs (we have a lot of them). He knew his ABCs and numbers early, but, again, saw a lot of them. He picked up reading somewhere at about 2.5, but I don�t know if that is precocious, or was skewed by my persistent pointing out of every word, with sounding, I read to him, many books a day, from about 5 months and on. (I was determined to make him a good reader!) He did seem to memorizes the names of a lot (maybe 25) of his dinky cars right away (like Honda civic, Acura, BMW, etc), I think maybe by sound at first, but he was able to eventually read the names on the bottom. He loves cars, but never obsesses about them. He has tons of books, loves reading together, but will chose toys over them , likes if we read to him more than reading himself, and seems to follow the pictures/gist of the story well. But if you ask him, and push him, he can read those words and sentences. The only odd language thing we notice is he will sometimes repeat a question a few times in a row (2-3), even if answered, although not on any repetitive topics, and doesn'talways repeat questions. He does ask questions a lot, and often will do that instead of referring to an observation directly (for example, ask �What does he have on his head?� instead of just saying what is on the persons head). So, is this repetitive questioning? There has been no echolalia, or strange manner of speaking that I can tell. He still goes into a baby babble talk,often if embarassed too, which he corrects if we tell him (he has a 1,5 year old around)He sings some songs, and at one point seemed to pick up nursery rhymes rather quickly, but we didn�t hear about them for long. He knew the planets, in order, quickly, mainly because we started reading a book about them, and he was pretty interested in them for a while, but only really knew their names, order and a brief detail I taught him about each (I.e. Venus is brightest, etc), but he hasn�t talked about them since we stopped talking about them . (I mention this only because I keep seeing that damn astronomy thing come up as an obsession in so many references!)
He walked at 11 months, runs well, climbs and jumps well, can throw a ball, catch ok (not great);still struggles with a tricycle, but we haven�t pushed him much on it since age 3 (and its winter now). . He can do pretty big puzzles now. He does not like drawing too much, and resists much attempts at learning to draw/write (a poor circle now, at best). Painting is a bit OK for him, not too long though.Potty training still a struggle, but are just pushing him over last few months, as he never seemed interested. No tantrums (the odd, typical one for certain situations, wants, etc., and nothing odd or in public), routine obsessions (although what kid doesn�t have routines every day?). He�s fine in crowds, groups, noisy places. Plays alone happily, and seems to have some imaginary play. Has sometimes struggled to stay still in group sing- alongs, but sometimes can. Briefly didn�t like the vacuum, or my drill (at 2-2.5), but no overly weird reaction, and tolerates now. He is scared of dogs (not sure why, although my dad had a big dog which overwhelmed him when he was just 2), but no other big fears. And th ereaction is not over the top- just avoidance.

So, sorry for the length, but I have been in a panic. It all seems to boil down to poor socializing, advanced reading, some repetitive behaviors, of which I have no idea how significant they are, and poor drawing (both ability and desire). ANY opinion you can give would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers

Ksy

I understand your anxiety and let me start by saying what a wonderful parent you are for doing your research, but from everything you described I don't personally see Autism of any sort but more a gifted child. I have never heard of a doctor zoning in on a child reading and declaring Aspergers. I would definitely seek a second opinion. Also look at the following link:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/special_needs.htm

Big hugs to you ... but really the only thing that stands out in your post is the parallel play and that too can be part of gifted and social issues.

I am sure you will get more advice on this board ... there is a lot of parents with 2E kids (Twice Exceptional) who have had to go through similar things.

HI,

I apologize for my short answer, but it has been a long day over here. On first glance, nothing jumps out as unusual to me, but then again, I have an early reading girl who loves astronomy, has some repetitive behaviors at times, freakishly good memory, etc. so it seems normal to me LOL Many children on here started reading very, very early and read at a very advanced level at three. Does he ever play with other children? I suppose that might make me stop and wonder, but perhaps he just isn't finding kids that he clicks with at his preschool. Sorry I don't have more to offer.

I agree with the above two responses...nothing jumps out. I am not an expert, except that I have a son with autism. He was diagnosed with autism 5 years before he was labelled gifted. There is no question my son was on the spectrum while your son's traits don't seem to take over his whole life. But, of course, if I were you, I wouldn't rest until he had an evaluation by a developmental pediatrician or at least an occupational therapist with experience with kids with ASDs.

The "early reading" your pediatrician is talking about is hyperlexia which is reading without comprehension and is one single characteristic that some kids with ASDs can have. My ASD son did NOT have it, yet he is now reading way way above grade level. Nan

On first read of your post I agree that nothing jumps out as "autism spectrum" to me. The early reading is not a red flag at all IMO (see my comments below). I would keep close watch on the social skills, though..Now that i'm reading your post for a second time i noticed it mentioned when i'd missed it the first time. And social is really the most important thing to look at..I say that because the social deficit is considered by most to be the dominant feature of spectrum disorders. Besides lack of interactive play, can you give more deails about his social skills. Can he wait his turn, show empathy, etc? is he like his peers for the most part? have good eye contact? Does he "herd" with them in preschool - like when they go do something he follows along, or is he very self-directed? If he is pretty much like his peers except he doesn't want to play with them, i'd think he is just a bit delayed there (no biggie). Or does he prefer adults? this might be because he could be very very gifted?

Also it is definitely too early to say "aspergers" which unlike the other spectrum disorders is usually not diagnosed until age 5. I have a son who is 7 and was diagnosed with PDD-NOS at 2.Many kids are diagnosed as PDD-NOS early on and look very similar but a few years later its clear who is AS, PDD-NOS, autism, etc... we are still struggling at this point if it is the correct diagnosis.

So i have pretty much read and re-read all the aspergers, autism, PDD-nos diagnosis criteria like a million times. Things that would signal aspergers would be pre-occupation with objects, extremely limited interests, resistance to changes in routine or things around them, atypical language development (though language may be very sophisticated), atypical social interest and development of social skills. What makes it different from autism and PDD-NOS is that the verbal development is usually very much ahead of everything else. I don't think "early reading" is mentioned in ANY of the diagnostic criteria for ASDs though it does seem to occur with a small percentage of ASD kids. Also the kids i know with ASD who were early readers were early "decoders" as opposed to truly being reading and comprehending. How is his comprehension?
irene

Also short on experience here but nothing jumps out...

However, would highly recommend seeking a developmental psychologist with experience in giftedness to bounce things off of and get assessment if needed.

The playing side-by-side is fine I think until 4-5 years old. It may be too early to tell regarding that one aspect. There would have to be other signs.

Be able to read early would be one of the signed of giftedness. However, some gifted children don't necessarily read early. But once they do, they learn at a fast pace.

There are times when an older child will appear to be/play like a baby for fun or to be like his little brother etc. That happens often, even much older kids.

Just some initial thoughts though definitely not much experience in this. But like the other posters have said, good for you for researching more about this.

Welcome ksy. I'm no expert but this sounds much more like giftedness than ASD to me. There's a book, "Misdiagnosis and dual diagnoses of gifted children and adults" which is useful for people in your position - you may want to get hold of it. In particular it has a page of "Incompatible or contradictory features" - things which, if you see them in a child of high intellectual ability "should raise serious questions as to the accuracy" of an ASD diagnosis. It's a long list but here are a few quotes:

- Relatively normal interpersonal relationships with those who share his or her interests

- Is comfortable with abstract ideas, unstructured situations, and innovative activities

- Can display empathy and sympathy on many occasions

- Lacks motor clumsiness

- Emotion is generally appropriate to topic or content

- Tolerates abrupt changes in routine, or only passively resists in the face of such changes

Maybe he's just a bit shy at nursery? Unless there's an actual problem I'd be inclined just to watch how he goes.

Hey there,
I hardly ever post but from reading your post, if your son has Asperger's, my son has Asperger's, and I don't think my son has Asperger's.
Early reading, not so good on the socialisation, poor drawing (and how!), a tiny bit obsessive (in our case it was fans or things that went round).
If you should be panicking, I should be panicking too.
My son is now 9. He is still a bit of an introvert. And still an excellent reader :-)
The idea of a 'diagnosis' which I interpreted as an ASD was raised when he first went to school as he refused to participate in class. However they didn't realise that he was very far academically advanced of where they were pitching lessons, ie reading novels and being given picture books. When that was fixed (new school and grade skip) the social and participation problems diminished.
Best of luck, my uninformed opinion is, don't panic. I hope these responses make you feel a bit better about the situation.

Hello,
I have a son diagnosed with AS. I have to say that there is nothing that sounds particularly concerning right now, but I agree that you should wait until older to really start worrying about AS. A couple of really obvious things you should look out for:

- Likes predictable schedules to the point that if something changes, even if warned before hand, you get tantrums. Bigger shifts in schedules will really show this (moving him to a new school, new afterschool program), even when the child him/herself anticipates and is excited by the idea of the change.

- Like you noted, disengaging. I agree that at this age, it's hard to tell if it is a Gifted child just doing his own thing, or not.

Another thing is that my older son is really cuddly and has lots of eye contact with me, but he doesn't really show tight affection to other people. Even my mother, who he adores, has noted this. I was told by several professionals that this is very common with AS, so it's hard, sometimes, for a parent to see the social disengagement.

Hope this helps.

This is one of the reasons I thought my son could not have Aspergers, even though he has some things in common with children with Aspergers. My son always loved to hug and be hugged by me, his dad, and his sister. He and his friends in the acting class hug a lot. If my son's acting class friends see us outside of acting class they come up and hug us. They often put their hands on shoulders, pat backs, high 5's, play fight/wrestle, that kind of thing. It is obvious they all like each other because they are very demonstrative with their affection.

My son also never had a problem making eye contact. His eyes are very expressive. I can easily tell when he is about to make some smart remark about something. He loves to tease me, but he lives to tease his older sister. I love to listen to their verbal sparring matches. It always looked to me like this could be considered a social skill because he has to know just how far he can go without hurting the other person's feelings. He is able to sense when the other person is emotionally down, like when his sister broke up with her longtime boyfriend. He knew when to back off the teasing and find something to compliment her on instead. He always knows just what to say and how to make her laugh when she is feeling down, which is why she always called to talk to him and not me.

Hi, I'm not expert, but I'll tell you what I've seen, if it helps any. As a teacher, I can see a difference in the Asperger's kids vs the non-aperger's gifted kids. It's hard to put my finger on it exactly, but there is just something off. I've never worked with kids as young as your son, so I don't know what it looks like at that age. In older kids/teens, here's what I see:

They admire kids their age and follow them around, but really only "socialize" and "play" with younger kids. They seem really "normal" when they play with young kids, but never seem to fit in with kids their own age.

They are interested in specific topics and talk about those topics constantly. They seem clueless to the fact that everyone in the group is bored of that topic and they don't pick up on the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) hints that everyone is getting annoyed with them.

They are physically awkward. Perhaps not clumsy, but they never seem to do as well in PE and sports.

They struggle with small talk and banter. They stand in the group and listen to the joking around, but if they contribute its usually something that doesn't quite fit. One example I saw just the other day: a group of 6th grade boys are being macho--playfully shoving each other's shoulders and making mild insults. They are basically nice boys and are trying to include the boy with Asperger's even though he he annoyed them earlier in the day by talking way too long about what he ate for breakfast. The boy with Asperger's does not really understand the unspoken boundaries; he shoves too hard and make a cutting insult rather than a playful insult. The other boys shout "Dude! What's your problem?!?" and leave. The Asperger's boy doesn't understand what went wrong.

Sometimes when I watch the Asperger's kids trying to fit in, I imagine tourists trying to fit in with a foreign culture. As tourists they've learned how to speak the language, but they don't understand the slang or the body languge. The natives are nice and include the tourists in their day to day life, but the tourists basically just follow the group around rather than truly belonging to the group. They might call these friendly natives their "friends" but there isn't a real connection there.

My D who is now 14 was recently diagnosed with a non-verbal learning disorder. She was much like your son at that age. She came a long way on a lot of those issues over the years. She really didn't start to come out of the parallel play mode and make real friends until 4th grade, and does reasonably well now in high school. She has learned to compenstate for her NLD over the years, but it might have been easier if we had gotten an earlier diagnosis. Not saying this is what your son has, just that it is a possibility.

Nothing seems to stand out to me as AS. Early reading does not indicate AS. He may just be gifted, or even poissibly, one explanation is hyperlexia. Playing parallel at that age isn't that odd. Sometimes kids may just be more comfortable playing alone as they are playing with a group. The writing thing.... could be a boy thing. My DD never had to be taught how to hold a pencil etc. and could write like crazy at a young age. My son, totally opposite. Still working on handwriting at almost 6!

Good for you for researching and be thankful you have a doc that is alert, but that doesn't mean you have reason to worry. With so many kids being diagnosed on the spectrum now-a-days, or so it seems, peds. may be more willing to investigate the possibility than to dismiss any concerns.

The above are the exact things that ruled out the Asperger's diagnosis for my DS6. We were especially concerned about his need to be scheduled (even as a newborn). While DS6 still has issues with his schedule being thrown off, it's moreso regarding his stomach, he adapts well to schedule changes (moreso now as an older child), especially since being in K/1st grade.

My heartfelt thanks to those of you who have replied- I can't believe how many, and the honesty and time taken (and fast!)...I've been pretty lost, and the internet can be a misleading place, as you all know..reaching out to people with experience, vs. the usual syndrome descriptions, makes a huge difference.

I guess I am stuck on sorting out the subtleties,which seems to make all the difference in diagnosis. I am in Canada, meaning huge line-ups (like a year) for assessment, so I have to go private, and am trying to make it all count.

Right now, the socializing is so hard to figure out, at 3. 5 years. He is in nursery school 3 days a week, and I don't know if the teachers are really noticing the details (nuances) of any interaction,and I am stuck on the outside, which is frustrating. With play-dates, he seems to either want to just play with another kids toys at their house (since they are new!); or when someone comes over, he starts off so crazy, excited, maybe embarrassed, and runs around a lot (which he doesn't do at their house).I still feel he is in parallel play mode.

So I am a bit too obsessed on the other little details..I still don't know what the jumping up and down a few times, now and again,really means. I also notice he asks a lot of questions, almost as a way of conversing (not necessarily repeating the same, but as a way of pointing something out). Is this abnormal? Then a the final topper is the resistant to fine motor stuff (drawing), and although he can climb, run well, seems to give up on his tricycle, which seems odd at 3.5 (?). Finally, potty training remains a struggle..SO- do all these little things add up to a lot more? Is he just too young? All of you seem to have different kids- AS, E2, gifted,etc, so I am interested in how you can really know, or am I just asking too much (in my anxious state!)?

Sorry- a quick bit more, specifically to your enquiry, "Renie 1", about social skills...I think he shows empathy (seems to know if someone is upset, sad), does not herd, act out, or anything- just seems to quietly go along-parallel plays, usually with what he wants to do. He'll sit and do story time, sing along (inconsistently). Also, in response to someone mentioning hyperlexia,he seems to understand words, and story content, pretty well,and definitely no routine fixation(life as a parent is all about routines, as we know!- but I've been testing him a bit, and he is pretty flexible).

hi key
that is good about the empathy. One theory out there is that children on the autism spectrum often lack or have poorly developed "Theory of Mind". TOM is the understanding by one individual that another individual has a different mind with different thoughts, feelings, etc. Before TOM is completely developed, it is difficult for children to show empathy, be dishonest (why? everyone knows what i know!), and to be self-conscious about their own behavior (which can be a good thing). For most typically developing kids it is there by age 5, but is starting to develop during the preschool years.. Ever since i read about TOM i feel that i just "get" autism so much more. Even with the best of verbal skills as in Aspergers, it is just so difficult to interact when you have a hard time understanding the point of view of others. So I would try to observe your child over the next year or two and see if this is coming along. As i mentioned earlier, my DD7 was diagnosed with PDD-NOS at a very young age and seemed very similar to your child as you describe. He also did flapping and jumping when exciting. However when his TOM finally kicked in, he became more self-conscious and stopped doing most everything that was not also done by his peers. At this point he looks much much more like a gifted child with ADD than a child on the spectrum.. we will get him re-evaluated eventually and hopefully we will know for sure.
irene
irene

HI Renie..very interesting...so, using the TOM idea, I have always laughed at how , when you ask your child if he did something bad (like pushing his brother) they just say "yes". Last week, I saw him slap his brother on the back, but this time, when I asked him, he kept saying "no"...is "lying" at 3.5 years old actually a good thing?

YES YES IT IS!!
that is great he lied.
some kids on the spectrum never do.

It sounds to me like the strongest possibility is just "plain gifted" for your guy. My DS7 is 2E with mild Asperger's--basically just the social part for him. He has had his moments of repetitive behaviors (lining things up, counting, read every license plate and sign he saw from the time he was 2, etc.), but in general his is just a total lack of understanding of social skills.

He has always been a huggy child, though, with us and with teachers and adult friends. Eye contact is intermittent. Lying is practically an art form with him (arrgh). We have never been schedulers in our house, and he doesn't have an obsession with them. So there are lots of "spectrum" things that he does not fit, but a few that he does fit that make the difference.

Your guy sounds like he could possibly be on the mild end of Asperger's, but to me it seems more likely from your descriptions that he is "just gifted" and that would account for the differences that he has with kids his age. He is simply not on the same level as they are, and they don't interest each other. My DS has had a great deal of that to add to his troubles, and it can be frustrating for him and heartbreaking for me. But if yours is not having such trouble as to make him act badly to other children, I would not worry about diagnosing anything. He is what he is, and a diagnosis is not going to change that, regardless of which way it goes. However, if he has behavior problems, I would get a diagnosis because it can prove helpful in dealing with the schools to get what he needs and keep him out of "official trouble". If it weren't for our official ruling this year, DS7 would have been kicked out of school for his "bullying" that comes from all the frustration and misunderstanding of the social situations. As it is, the school bends over backward to work with him on his social skills and get him on the right track, and we couldn't ask for more.

I have no idea if all this rambling has made any sense and I'm too tired to go back and see, so I hope that helps you. Your little guy sounds great and gifted and you'll fit right in here. :-)

i also agree with nautigal - my DD7 still has the diagnosis on paper and that forces the school to deal with him in a kinder, gentler way. It is what keeps us from fighting to get the label taken away.
irene

Yes!! I totally agree with you, renie!

Ksy, here's a test called Sally and Anne Test which is used to measure "Theory of Mind".
http://www.asperger-advice.com/sally-and-anne.html

Botchan..at what age should they pass this test? seems hard for a 3.5 year old?

(Not Botchan but) yes, it would be normal for a 3.5yo to fail that test - children normally get it at 4, according to the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test
(I don't know any more than this says about the distribution of age at which children can first solve this, though.)

Interesting. Both my children got it wrong (!!). I think my daughter may have gotten it right if it was acted out with dolls but not sure about my son.

Yes, ColinsMum is right. According to the Wikipedia article on Theory of Mind, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind it says, "Most normally-developing children are unable to pass the Sally and Anne test task until around age 4." I've also heard from my son's ABA therapist that typically developing children should be able to pass this test around 4 or 5. The article also mentions that "In one study, 80% of children diagnosed with autism (age range 6.1-16.6 with IQ range 70~108) were unable to pass the test."

I have some very detailed books about TOM (though i have to dig them out to get titles) and its explained more as something that develops from very early on and becomes more "set" by about age 5.. An example of early TOM in young toddlers is the ability to point to something they want to show you (because its interesting to them or because they want it).. If you point you are showing someone elses "mind" what you want in order for them to also "see" it.. So they know that you don't also see it. Kids on the spectrum sometimes develop pointing late and often drag the caregiver to an item if they want it.Sometimes explained as "lack of shared interest" or something like that.. Hope i explained that right.

I have seen a few different versions of the Sally Anne test and some are not as good as others- like the telephone game- it gets changed slightly as its "passed along". Its setting up something in an artificial way, though its a good starting point. Also the stat about 80% of kids not passing from 6-16 might be misleading because the test should be passed by age 5. So we can't tell from that stat how many of the kids would have failed it at 5, but now have it.

irene

LOL!
Yeah, specially Sally didn't see Anne when she came back...very suspicious.

I agree. The study was done by Simon Baron-Cohen, and I also think the sample is too small.(20 autistic children in total. 16 out of 20 failed the test.) http://ruccs.rutgers.edu/~aleslie/Baron-Cohen%20Leslie%20&%20Frith%201985.pdf

I agree with the other posters. I see signs of giftedness in early reading, but that's it.

My DS11 was recently diagnosed with Aspberger's.

Looking back, the hints we didn't catch were:

Lack of reciprocity in conversation.
Lack of use of greetings when seeing other people.
Awkward physically
Sensory-sensitive

Here's my question: if he's a gifted kid, is he playing alone because of social deficits, or because he finds the other kids boring? I mean...if he's thinking about the relative merits of the 1967 Corvette vs the 1975 model, and the other kid is thinking "whee! Car-car!" there's not a lot of common ground.

More info on ny son- we had our first SP/OT assessement yesterday- very stressful!

He was average to above average from a cognitive point of view; no obvious issues..BUT- what I thought was baby talk seems to be a sort of lazy talking, using his tongue out a bit (so it can sound baby-ish)sometimes jargony..he did it for a lot of the assessment (no jargon), but can be corrected when asked. He does do it more when in a new place, with other people , etc..also sometimes to himself while playing...the Psychologist wasn't sure to make of it- possibly some stimming ? (although no obvious repetition of same things that I can hear). Has anyone ever heard this type of behaviour?

Now for the dreaded checklist questionnaires...

Also- to some comments on this topic- how does one assume a child is ignoring other kids because he is thinking above them,especially at 3.5 years, when he isn't being supradvanced overall and doesn't impress me with brilliant comments (other than, in my son's case, he reads well)?

Hi

I have to say that my son sounds a lot like yours (mine is now 13) and he still has every car in our town's license plate, make and model memorized. He is very emotional and caring and loves to be hugged. He is the kind of kid who doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and has difficulty making decisions that would involve making one person happy and another one sad.

That said, we never thought it could be AS because he was so sensitive and smart. We thought he wasn't comfortable in social situations because of his exceptional giftedness. Imagine our surprise when we had him tested and the tests came out as Asperger's. I was devastated and really have refused to fully believe it (many people would swear he doesn't have 'it' because they think he is so 'perfect'). But, I have to say that after 3 years of weekly therapy sessions, he has gotten sooooo much better, feels better about himself and has lots of good friends.

The diagnosis (as painful as it was for me ... and whether it is or isn't 'true') has helped us get him 'help' and find ways to deal with social situations. I don't think we would have gotten as far without the therapy. I have decided to look beyond the label.

Good luck.

Thanks so much for the supportive comment...I have been destroyed with anxiety about all of this, and am still going through the process...

WOW! My son, who just turned 3 in April sounds almost EXACTLY like your son. I am also fraught with anxiety over it as a friend just mentioned Aspergers to me and his teacher wants him evaluated for behavior and social issues. Apparently he is very distractable, doesn't stay on task well, and does parallel play.

My son can't read, but is starting to be able to sound out 3 letter words and spell them (sun, fan, etc.). He learned his letters(upper/lowercase), numbers, colors shapes, all between his first and 2nd year. His teacher believes he only does parallel play now. HOWEVER, I see him initiate play with other children all the time in playdates. BUT, he acts really silly and gets them to mimic him, basically. Other children think he's really fun because of that. He is the one controlling the play, though, which worries me. He will mimic other kids, too, but he prefers when they follow him. With older kids, he will "herd". The other day he kept following the older kids as they doorbell ditched. The older kids never payed attention to him. .

What sticks out to me is he doesn't really talk to other kids, mostly. It is basically physical play. But, if I think about it, other kids his age (while playing) don't really talk that much to eachother. Although with adults he is a chatterbox. My son does not do the baby talk as you mentioned, but he will make up words to be funny. He's call something the wrong name as a joke.

My son loves anything that spins and makes noise: fans, blenders, vaccuum cleaners. He never did the repetitive spinning of objects either. He has routines as well. If he reads a new book a certain way, it has to be read the same way every time after that. Like if he skips a page, he has to ALWAYS skips it. My son is constantly in motion, and it sounds like your son is too.

He has eye contact, smiled early, met milestones on time, loves affection and is very affectionate with everyone. Is also extremely compassionate. If a kid (girl) gets hurt, he goes over to them and rubs their back. If a kid is in time out, he will go over to them and try to make them laugh if they are crying. If my younger son (6 months) is crying, he will try everything under the sun to get him to stop (pacifier, doing something silly, singing for him). He understands when I'm mad, and will actually tell me this.

His sentences are still a bit disjointed sometimes and he mixes up pronouns. He memorizes factual information about cars, too and memorized the planets at 18 months I believe. STILL loves the planets. He also follows a story pretty well and when asked can answer what the book is about.

He DOES repeate questions we ask him sometimes. He also repeats things we say still. He does the exact same thing with asking questions to point things out. It's a way of engaging us in conversation and MAKING us talk to him. If he just states something, maybe we ignore him sometimes? So he asks us a question so we feel compelled to ansswer. Or maybe we ask him so many questions that he is just doing what we do?

He sings some songs, and seems to pick them up very quickly from school. Anything new in his life, he will talk and ask questions about incessantly until the next new thing or experience happens.

He is VERY good with gross motor. CLimbs everything, swims by himself a little, has no fear, and kicks, hits, throws well. He also doesn't like his tricycle though. He can barely copy a circle (horribly), will balk at holding crayons and drawing (wants me to do it for him). He will have strong reactions sometimes when we try to take something away from him or not give him what he wants, but is failry easily redirected when we threaten time out or if we use a logical explanation. Potty training is a struggle. Will go pee on the potty, but won't tell us when. He will NOT poopy on the potty.

He is also absoultely fine in crowds, groups, new situations. He actually seems to thrive and like new situations. Loved the dentist. Had a swim test today, and did even better for the instuctor than for my husband who takes him swimming every week.

We are getting him assessed by the OT/ST in 3 weeks and will let you know what they say. What was the outcome of your son's evaluation? Did they say he had Aspergers? I'm very interested since they sounds almost exactly the same.

Erin

Hi Erin,

I would not rely on an OT to diagnose or rule out Asperger's. Your son has some traits (the love of spinning things, the social quirks, the repetitive language) but not others (the compassionate behavior would be very unusual in an AS kid of this age). I'd go to an autism center or a developmental pediatrician specializing in autism to get help sorting this out.

Our experience with OTs for our son with AS is not great. They tend to pin everything on sensory issues, which means they tend not to see other things that are going on. They are not qualified to diagnose neurological disorders. YMMV.

DeeDee

Thanks, DeeDee for responding. I totally thought the therapists could help distinguish this for us. Thank you for letting me know they can't. I'm finding it very hard to figure all this out. I'm very confused about the compassionate behavior, too, as it seems like he has a LOT of empathy and shows it often? I read this string on Wrong Planet and now I believe it is possible to have AS with empathy http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt125782.html

What do you think?

Erin, People with AS do have empathy, they just do not express it in the typical manner. Young AS kids have a hard time expressing it at all, so it appears like they have no empathy. Nan (mom of a 7yo with AS)

A difficult thing about autism spectrum disorders is that people expect all these kids to be alike; it's totally possible for each kid to have a different subset of traits. (A "Syndrome," like Asperger's, is a collection of features that often appear clustered together, but a person can have the syndrome without having all the features.)

At age 3 my child appeared to have no empathy, but now he really does seem to. I think for him it may be a learned skill rather than an innate behavior, or else it showed up late, just a part of his social/emotional developmental delay. But that's my kid. Yours will be different, whether or not he has a spectrum disorder.

For me, the difference between "bright and quirky" (which is what we were told many times) and "a disorder" is the extent to which the behaviors negatively affect him and the people around him. He was truly unable to cope with preschool: his inflexibility and difficulty with transitions made it really traumatic for him. For me, this went beyond quirky into "we need help," and the dx was an important starting point toward getting that help.

At 7, after a few years of hard work on his and our parts, he is still bright and quirky, with amazing academic interests, but coping much better with school and the world at large. Pursuing the dx was the best thing we have done for him, because it brought us a team of supports that help him grow toward his potential.

AS tends to shrink a person's world into routine, rigidity, sameness. The therapies have helped us broaden our son's world, which is better for him and for us.

HTH,
DeeDee

KSY wrote:
This is something people told us for years, and sometimes still do: oh, he's just too smart for the other kids, that's why he doesn't engage with them. Well, actually, he wanted to engage but hadn't a clue how to do it. The lack of subject matter in common was only part of the problem: the other, bigger problem was his deficient social skills. We still run into people who don't understand this.

This is an area where giftedness can mask disability. Not true in all cases, but true in ours.

DeeDee

I agree with DeeDee, because I too struggled with this. At first, I was convinced that my son's issues all fit into the oes that gifted children are supposed to have. Hyper sensitivity, motor oes, emotional oes.

Like Deedee, I realized that I accepted the diagnosis because his "oes" were more. He was so sensitive that if someone put those net shirts in soccer on him he would cry for an hour. At 8, he still has issues with smells in the cafeteria, and he reacts strongly to them. I think that's the thing...if he were just sensitive, it would be easier, but his reactions are completely out of proportion with what happened.

Rigidity is how he fortifies himself. If he knows what will happen, he can plan on how to deal with it and get through it ok, but changes throw him off.

My smart, quirky son with a huge vocabulary that made him seem different the minute he started speaking didn't fit in with kids his age, but he did fit in with several boys that are three and four years older who share common interests like role playing games, musical theater, Mythbusters, science, technology, music, reading and lots of other things. With all these different interests I thought it would be easy to find common ground with other kids his age, but it wasn't. He didn't do sports and that is all most of the boys in our area wanted to talk about. My son turned 12 today and some of his friends are old enough to drive and have part time jobs. He doesn't see them as much as he used to. I knew this would happen eventually. At least there is Facebook and he can keep in touch that way and this online socializing seems to be working out well for him.

Only one of his best friends is still doing musical theater with him, but there are a lot of girls his age or older in the musical theater group now and he is realizing this is not such a bad thing. He is hoping to get a good part in Suessical now that he is over the shyness about singing solos. His confidence level has gone way up in the last several months, in spite of having to wear a scoliosis brace and dealing with a lot of migraine headaches, because the middle school aged group of girls tell him he is smart and funny and he makes them giggle and one of them even said he was cute.

My son is as tall as some adults now so talking like an adult doesn't seem odd to other people, unless he really unleashes his huge vocabulary while talking to me in the presence of someone we just met who he feels treated him like he is a "dumb little kid that doesn't know anything." He seems sensitive to that kind of thing. I am sensitive to the looks we get when he does this.

The neuropsychologist that tested him described him as personable and she did not diagnose him with Aspergers, just dyspraxia. A smart kid with a mild disability in a small town with a sports hegemony will have a difficult time fitting in even if he has good social skills.

Thanks so much everyone for all of your responses. There seems to be such a thin line here between Disorder and Gifted and it seems to come down to social/rigidity issues. My husband is still fighting me on this, and I'm wondering if I should continue to push getting him evaluated, or just wait? I keep hearing, that the earlier the better. But, he is very borderline, and so it's tough. Can any of you tell me if your sons fit this description at age 3 (in April)

Here are the things that worry me about him and seem like Aspergers:

Repetition in play: If he plays someting for the first time, EVERY time after he plays the same way.
Repetition in speech: He will repeat the last thing we say sometimes as well as quesitons.
Incredible memory: He remembers things that have happened when he was probably 18 months old
Learning: Learned colors, Upper/lowercase letters, numbers to 20, and letter sounds by the time he was 20 months.
Teacher evaluation: Says he is highly distractable and won't sit and play when told. He will, for example, sit at a station and pour popcorn for one cup to the other a couple times and then just decide to pour it on the floor.
Teacher evaluation: Doesn't comment on other children's play and mimics a lot. Is extremely silly and mainly does parallel play. She wants him evaluated for moderate to severe behavior issues.
Social: Doesn't seem to talk about other children very much, but they talk about him. He does not say "hi" to children and acknowledge them unless I tell him to. Other kids do acknowledge him.

Things that don't seem to fit Aspergers:

Extremely good at gross motor. Jumps in the pool and does freestyle a few feet. Climbs up walls other children can't. Very good at throwing, kicking, and hitting balls.

Empathy: Always touchy, huggy. Will always kiss his baby brother when he sees him. Asks me what the matter if I cry and hugs me until I stop. Goes up to other kids who are crying and will put his arm around them and kiss them on the cheek. Always tries to make his little brother stop crying by singing to him, playing with him, or giving him a binkie.

Completely understand emotions: Will tell me that I'm mad if I'm yelling. Understands what different facial expressions means

Reading books: When I ask him what characters are doing in books, he's able to answer. I heard this was a problem with Asperger's children?

Re-directing: I'm able to redirect him if he's upset as long as I have an explanation. For example, he loves his brown shoes. They were dirty, and I had to put the blue shoes on him. He asked a few times for the brown shoes, but I told them they were too dirty and he stopped.

Tranistions and new experiences: Is VERY adventurous. Anything new does not phase him. He likes new people and experiences. Example: Had no problem in his swim test with a new lifeguard taking him in the water and trying new things.

Social: He will go up to new kids and adults and interact with them. It seems like he does more than parallel play to me. He has eye contact with them and laughs with them. Does not use a lot of words though. Mainly will be silly and get other kids to be silly with him and follow him around. Several other parents tell me their kids talk about Devin all the time so he is defintiely "fun" to them.

I know this is a lot, but I've been dealing with this for months. I have a friend who is convinced he has Aspergers due to his "ritualistic" behavior. And his teacher obviosuly thinks something is wrong. Please help...

Erin

Erin ... from what you describe he seems borderline and more in line with gifted with a possible 2E BUT if you are worried and it seems that you are, just get him evaluated. It is peace of mind at the very least. If what is stopping you is your husband I would approach him with the eval as something you need to do for yourself so down the line you won't have guilt if he does in fact have Asperger. As for the idea that the earlier you test the better off he will be ... someone correct me on this but Asperger is the exception to that rule and diagnoses is harder at such an early age. Now Autism is one that the earlier you diagnose the better for the child and though Asperger is under the same umbrella it isn't the same thing.

Erin, I'll run through your list here. I'll say, though, that if the teacher thinks an eval is in order, you should get one. It's better to know than not to know. A knowledgeable expert will likely be able to note signs of AS at age 3. (A not-knowledgeable expert, however, will not; get someone with experience.)

Repetition in play: yep. Had this. Also lined up toys rather than "playing" with them, or used them in odd ways.

Repetition in speech: called "echolalia." ours didn't, some kids with AS do.

Incredible memory: yes.

Learning: yes, ours was about that precocious.

"He will, for example, sit at a station and pour popcorn for one cup to the other a couple times and then just decide to pour it on the floor." Can be a cover for poor play skills, a bid for attention, or something else.

"Is extremely silly and mainly does parallel play." Our son used silliness as a way to interact, because he wanted to interact but didn't know how to do it well. Silliness can cover for poor social skills.

"She wants him evaluated for moderate to severe behavior issues." Beyond the silliness? At that age we had panic, screaming, and biting in preschool because he was so overwhelmed.

"He does not say "hi" to children and acknowledge them unless I tell him to." Ours had to be taught to do this by rote.

Having good gross motor skills doesn't rule out Asperger's. Some AS kids are deficient here, some not. There is a champion surfer with AS.

Empathy: Some AS kids do show empathy (it's a myth that they have none). Mine didn't at this age.

"Always touchy, huggy." This can be empathy or craving touch and sensory input. If it is inappropriate to time and place, or he's huggy with people he shouldn't be, this can be a sign that the child has a poor understanding of social norms.

"Always tries to make his little brother stop crying by singing to him, playing with him, or giving him a binkie." I know an AS girl who did this because she couldn't stand the sound of a baby crying.

Completely understand emotions: This may indeed be evidence against AS. Does he get the subtle ones ("embarrassed") or just the basic ones ("happy/sad")?

"Reading books: When I ask him what characters are doing in books, he's able to answer." Whether an AS kid can do this depends on their pragmatic language skills. Many can do this. Mine can, and could at that age. "Why" questions were harder for him to answer.

Re-directing, adventure: Again, most AS kids are inflexible, but this is not an ironclad diagnostic indicator.

Social: The silliness can be a cover for not having other social skills, but the eye contact is a good sign.

The only thing that is in common among all AS kids is that their social skills are poor. All the other traits are commonly associated with AS but do not necessarily appear in every kid.

HTH,
DeeDee

Hi Erin:

Wow, can I relate to your posts!

I echo what DeeDee has written in full, especially the point above. Our salty old developmental pediatrican summed it up best: "No child has been harmed from having an assessment or receiving early intervention, but plenty of children have suffered for not having received timely support."

My daughter, who is 4.5, was diagnosed at age three with PDD-NOS. That means she has characteristics/behaviors associated with autism, but not in the right combination and/or level to meet the formal criteria for a diagnosis of autism or Asperger's. However, kids with PDD-NOS face many of the same challenges as kids with autism or AS, and that is certainly the case with our daughter. She is also highly gifted.

To the lay person, and even to some professionals who don't have a background in dealing with ASD (our initial pediatrician, for instance) she might just come across as yet another quirky smart kid. Because she was reading at such an early age, engaging in witty exchanges with adults, and was an all around happy kid (as if happiness and ASD are mutually exclusive ;-), my husband thought I was totally overreacting in wanting to have her assessed. It was the most difficult period in our otherwise solid marriage (only after DD's diagnosis did I learn that it is *very* common for one parent to struggle more than the other with the possibility of an ASD diagnosis).

Still, in my heart of hearts, I knew that there was something "different" about DD -- particularly when I watched her around other kids her age. She wasn't interacting in the same manner as her peers, nor was she engaging in the same type of imaginative play. Add to it the precocious reading and sensory issues, and I just felt that there was something more in play than simply giftedness.

For us, getting DD's diagnosis turned out to be a blessing of sorts because it gave us a much clearer picture of what we needed to do to address her needs. She began an intense early intervention program (mainly social skills) at age three and is now thriving. I shudder to think where we'd be right now had we taken a wait and see approach with her.

My advice on this one would be to trust your "mamma bear instinct." If you have concerns about your son's development -- and certainly I can appreciate why -- your best bet is to probe these with a qualified professional.

Best wishes...I really can relate to how scary it is to even contemplate something on the spectrum. For me, however, the "what if" stage was far worse than actually living with the diagnosis.

Cheers from Sydney,

Kristen

Thank you, everyone. You have solidified my resolve to push forward with having him evaluated, if only for my peace of mind to KNOW. It has been the most difficult thing in our marriage, but we will get through either way. If social skills are the only common thread, then I believe it is still a possibility and I do want to get him diagnosed so we can start receiving help. I have to say that I'm glad I'm not alone in going through this! You all are wonderful and THANK YOU so much for taking the time to help me. I think this is the right decision and I'm going forward with it.

Erin