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Alright you tell me which Mite should use in classroom work, the handwriting or keyboard.

Here is a sample of some handwriting work he did in Sunday School this morning...

1...Thir is prsen how loves a xxxx(letters indecipherable)
2...hice t pepol no mater thier polir like me
3...lov yor naber
4...hep nabors anytime

Finally, last week, Mite was allowed to keyboard for an report on crayfish. Below are some of my favorite sentences out of a 200 word essay he wrote

1...Crayfish are very interesting animals from the crustacean family. Let's take a look at the appearance, behaviors and habitat of these interesting creatures.

2...Crayfish have the most awkward behaviors of any animal that I have seen!

3...Crayfish are feisty and vicious like their close cousins the crab and lobster.

4...Watching them climb is very amusing. They are clumsy and awkward yet efficient.

5...Crawdads flip their tails to indicate their agitation.

I was so impressed! He was so impressed!!! I think he's beginning to like the idea of keyboarding even if he does "look different", but we aren't fully there yet.

The classroom teacher is still against him using a keyboard because she says his handwriting performance is "right in the middle of the pack" and she says scribing or keyboarding gives him an unfair advantage.


"The classroom teacher is still against him using a keyboard because she says his handwriting performance is "right in the middle of the pack" and she says scribing or keyboarding gives him an unfair advantage."

I didn't realize that public education was a competition. This is actually one big issue that I have with the education system. Keyboarding is an extremely important skill that should be taught to all children. They all need to have the advantage of keyboarding. Think how much the writing (composition) of all children (especially boys) would improve if they did not have to spend so much energy on the physical aspects of handwriting. Unfortunately this is one more thing that we have to add onto the evergrowing afterschooling list.

Speaking of which, does anybody have any recommendations for typing programs for young children?
Unfair advantage?!!!!! What is she talking about?! Unfair because he would be able to show what he knows instead of struggling to put something on paper? That's ludricous!

Willa, I'm going to email you some stuff about classroom accomodations. This is at the top of the list. I hope the testing OT will also tell the teachers. GIVE HIM A KEYBOARD!!!!!!!

There are two things to be done here. One is to work on his handwriting, so he can create legible handwritten whatevers at some point in life. The other goal is for Mite to produce written work as an assignment. For that, there is NO EXCUSE for the IEP to not read that Mite keyboards his assignments.

Tell the teacher to have the other "middle of the pack" kids produce some written work on the computer. See what content they come up with. Maybe some of them need the thing too. And I don't know about you, but those writing examples do not seem "typical" of a 9 year old to me. Neither do the keyboarded sentences!!!

I'm curious, how does he keyboard? One handed? Fast, slow, quick and easy or is it pretty labored? You can email me with that info!

As for typing programs, we have one from Scholastic, Brain Play, that is for 1st to 3rd grade. It's called Roller Typing. My 5 year old has been pretty independent to follow the program.
I like Mavis Beacon for ages 8 and up. There are lots and lots of ways to customise the "look and feel" of the program. I had to resort to bribery to get DS10 to do it, but boy-oh-boy has it payed off. It's one of the ways that drives home to everyone at the new school that he really is "different."

For the record, his public school, which was a wonderful place, just not for him, started the kids with proper keyboarding in first grade and returned to it every year for a few months in their computer class. It wouldn't have been enough, I think most of the typing was learned at home, but it was wonderful endorsement.

Can you imagine a 10 year old in a blazer and tie typing 90 words per minute with his head turning like a spinning top looking everywhere except at his fingers or the screen? This was discribed to me by one of DS10's teacher's. I wish I had been a fly on that wall!

Smiles,
Trin
Our son is dysgraphic to the point where it hurts his hand to write more than a sentence at a time. As a result, we did not know what he was capable of in school. For math racers (timed addition, subtraction, times tables tests), he could never finish on time. For written responses to reading, etc. he would put one or two word answers. He was frustrated the most because he is so motivated to learn and excel yet has pain when he tries to respond.

We told his fifth grade teacher and school principal he needed to take tests orally and they said 'yes', but never implemented anything. Finally, we tried a private school who had other dysgraphic students and they made accomodations for scribing exams. However, even there accomodations varied from teacher to teacher and from week to week. With the scribing accomodations, however, we were finally able to see what our son was capable of. The example you gave between the Sunday school writing and the school typing was what we saw when our son was in sixth grade.

Only when he is allowed to have a scribe for every quiz and test and receive notes in class taken by a good notetaker is he able to perform well. If you were to make him write everything then he could accomplish almost nothing. With scribes he is taking calculus now, and he is only 13.

When a teacher says it is an advantage to have a scribe, I might disagree. To be able to take your own notes and to do math problems with your own hand adds to the learning process. To use other people's notes and do math entirely orally is more difficult.

I might also recommend the 'Pen Again' pen which allows your son to write using more of his hand than fingers. It did not help our son, but it is recommended.

I would push for full accomodation in every subject if you want to really see what your son is capable of, and it looks like a lot from the writing sample. Good luck.

David E.
Oh David E. -
What a change you have seen in your son! It must have been a long difficult struggle. After problems like this are solved it seems to simple doesn't it. But I bet that while you were going through it, everyone had an opinion and a worry of their own.

Congradulations.

And yes, I've tried scribing for my son when he is very tired. Scribing Math is no advantage!
Trinity
Oh David E. -
What a change you have seen in your son! It must have been a long difficult struggle. After problems like this are solved it seems to simple doesn't it. But I bet that while you were going through it, everyone had an opinion and a worry of their own.

Congradulations.

And yes, I've tried scribing for my son when he is very tired. Scribing Math is no advantage!
Trinity
yeah. scribing math doesn't seem to help Mite at all. We are still trying to figure out accomodations for that. Scribing has helped in all the other subjects, but as with David's son, it is intermittent. Even though it is in the IEP, the teacher doesn't always let him scribe or send it to the resource room with him for scribing with the SPED teacher.

I know he needs another education option. I just don't know WHAT the right option is yet.

Homeschooling at this point is not possible for us. What things I do with him at home are successful, but I can't predict how long I would be able to maintain a structured environment for his progress.

How can we accomodate math?
It is certainly frustrating that accomodations are intermittent, and we too were unable to make it consistent at school. As a result we home schooled.

To home school math, we hired a credentialed math teacher who came to our home three times a week and gave a one-on-one lesson. They sat next to one another so the teacher could scribe everything our son said as they solved problems together.

Importantly, our son learned the correct vocabulary to use when dictating each math step. The teacher assigned homework each day and we acted as a scribe for him to complete it. The teacher wanted exact scribing rather than getting the answer correct because he wanted to know exactly what our son needed help with. We were lucky to find a teacher who had tutored for over ten years and really knew how to teach, motivate, and keep things interesting.

With one-on-one teaching our son was able to move fairly quickly through the math textbooks. After nearly two years of this the teacher moved away so we enrolled our son in pre-calculus at our local community college last semester (he earned an A), and now he is taking honors calculus I.

The good news is that in college there is a separate disabled student's office. Every class is fully accomodated with student notes (quality may vary) and scribing which is handled at the disabled student's office.

The disabled student's office has had to hire a student scribe for quizzes and exams because you do need someone who understands the math to scribe the math. Therefore, they find a student who has earned A's in Calc I, II, and III, and hire them to scribe. This has worked nicely.

We were fortunate with the private math teacher we hired. We tried to find an English teacher to do the same thing, but we could not find the right fit. If you ever need a tutor, find one with a lot of tutoring experience.

It is important to come up with a solution for math scribing. Our son used to just solve everything in his head, but with bigger problems, you make mistakes and of course cannot show your work. You need to be able to scribe line by line to solve long problems. That was the first thing the math teacher told our son, making him slow down and show all of his steps.

--David E.
I have thought that scribing math would help Mite access his strengths (verbal skills) to enhance the weak area (calculation). The school district, however, isn't sure "how" to scribe math.

I'm still working on it though. They are going to accomodate him at this point by teaching him "surveying" strategies. I'm willing to let them give it a try, but I really think they need to scribe for him.

Gosh! I wish they had SPED services when I was in college. I managed to plow my way through, but never could read my own notes and lost many points to professors who couldn't read my writing.
We thought our son was stronger in verbal than math, too. However, once he was given a scribe, he showed he has great strength in math. He is still better in verbal/writing which comes easy to him, but he has shown that math is not a weakness.

You mention calculation as a weakness, which typically is a weakness for visual-spatial learners. This was the same for our son. While calculations may be a problem, math concepts are not. Your son may be able to progress through the material conceptually and should not be held up because of occassional calculation errors.

As far as the school district not knowing "how" to scribe math, it is simple. You need someone to work one-on-one writing down the answer as your son says it. Once the scribe works with your son a few times, they will learn shortcuts and it will go much faster. The scribe can always slow down and make your son state things explicitly to verify comprehension.

What math are they currently working on? Long mult./division, problem solving? I'm curious to know what "surveying" strategies are, could you elaborate?

The disabled students services are only available if you can document your disability with a physicians note and/or occupational therapist evaluation. In the case of our son, his dysgraphia causes him pain, so he cannot write more than a few words at a time, and, of course, it is messy. Most cases of dysgraphia are as you described, where you can write, but it is very messy. As long as it is documented, then you can get support services if you request them.

It sounds like the school district is trying to help, which is great. The nice thing about disabled students services at communitiy college is that they bend over backwards to help and act as your advocate to your professors. They are also very motivating and nice. Remember that community college offers math classes starting at pre-algebra. Once your son is at that level, I recommend you enroll him in your local community college for math only and see how it goes.

--David E.
Mite (9 tomorrow!!!) does have an IEP and a medical diagnosis of dysgraphia and dyspraxia (and graphomotor dyspraxia) currently.

The math teach is teaching him to survey the page and highlight when the question style changes (ie if he was doing subtraction and now will be doing addition or story problems), highlight action words and identifying words (ie give more or difference) and a couple of other things I can't remember offhand.

I'm going to start scribing his math at home and see what happens with his homework. I really do think his hands "lose" him in the output. He'll pop off the answer verbally then will write something different. It's strange.

We'll keep the community college in mind. We've a little ways to go to get there, but I know we will get there sooner than we'd expected 9 years ago tomorrow!! lol
Fite,
I can relate to hands and mouth on different circits. When DS10 was doing computer games on my lap, he would verbally beg for help as his hand would move the mouse towards the correct answer. Weird, hu?
Trinity
Isn't it though? It makes me think their little minds are running sooooooooooooooooooooo far ahead of the immature motor skills. Probably he had forgotten, but his hand was just then getting around to it.

I'm so glad for the advances in brain research that we are seeing these days. I think in the next 25 years it will be the knowledge of the mind/brain that will astound mankind. I think we will finally see there are brain differences and we must educate to those differences.

Fitin' Willa
Sorry to go a bit off-topic (Fite's comment on minds running ahead of motor skills made me think of this), but does anyone else have kids whose minds seem to race ahead of their SPEECH skills?

My DS8 is soon having a speech eval at school because of trouble with some of his "R" sounds. In discussing the referral with me, his teacher also mentioned that she notices DS sometimes gasps for air in the middle of his sentences, and that she is going to mention it to the speech therapist. I have noticed the same thing. As a toddler, it was even more pronounced; if DS had something long and complicated to say, he would literally talk himself out of air and have to take a deep gasping breath mid-word or mid-sentence in order to continue. Other people outside the family would comment on it, too.

I always thought it was just that he had a lot to say and the words in his brain were racing too fast for his mouth to keep up. But now that he's older, I see that he also tends to struggle and stumble over words during longer conversations--like if he's trying to describe something that happened at school. Not like a stutter, just stumbling over words and lots of pauses and repeats, as well as "uhs, ums, ers" as he grasps for the right words. Sometimes starting a word, then pausing mid-word, then re-starting it. He's also a very hesitant reader when reading aloud. I really notice it because DD12 and DD6 are both fast and fluent readers aloud.

Anyway, does this sound familiar to anyone? And is it any cause for concern, or just a developmental thing or even a "deep-thinking mind swirling with too much information" thing? I'm very curious what the speech therapist will say about it.


P.S. to Fite: sending early happy birthday wishes to Mite! I hope it's a fabulous day for him and your whole family.
It does sound a little like "apraxia". I know Mite's dyspraxia affects his reading aloud. And I do think for Mite it is the mind racing ahead. In school they have the kids do the DIBELS. His aloud scores for reading on the DIBELS are below age/grade level, but his comprehension scores are above age/grade level. So, that, imnsho, tells me he's reading faster than his brain can process the motor skills to read aloud.

For me, I have dyspraxia and apparently, from the stories I've heard about my childhood, I did not start speaking until I was over 3 years old. Now, I'm a bit like your son, I think. I speak very rapidly, run out of breath, and even lose my voice after speaking for too long of a period (more than 5 minutes). My neck literally gets tired when I speak. I feel my body is not processing the onslaught of words hitting the working memory fast enough to put them into efficient motor skills. I know my thoughts are leaps and bounds beyond my mouth.

One thing I think HELPS me, is music. I'm a vocalist and whistler and I play the harmonica (things you learn about WillaFite8^). I've had to learn how to take long deep breaths to sustain the air flow in each of those. I tend to breathe that way, too. Deep breath talk talk talk talk deep breath talk talk talk talk.

Thinking about your son and writing this right now, I'm wondering which came first, the breathing that way or the ability to do those musical talents. I do remember when I first took a voice lesson at the U of CO, the professor was shocked at how long I could hold my breath. I remember my swimming instructor in high school also being surprised about that.

So now I wonder if I have a high capacity to take deep breaths that I've developed to deal with my weird manner of speech.....hmmmmmmm....got me to pondering now GG!!1

Anyhow, let us know what the speech therapist says. I'm very curious.
Fite, thanks so much for your thoughts on this--very interesting. I will have to do some research on apraxia as I know nothing about it other than what I've gleaned here from your posts.

You mention yourself not speaking until age 3--my DS8 is very different in that regard. Of my three kids, he spoke the earliest. Amazingly early, especially for a boy--and extra especially for a preemie (I was told to expect all of his development to be slightly delayed; instead he did everything early). He said his first word at six months, spoke something like 25 words at 8-9 months, simple sentences by 11 months, long and complex sentences by 18 months, and they were clear and fluent too. (Example: "Mommy, what is that man doing over there by the car?" or "The girl in this book saw a funny monkey eating a banana at the zoo.")

His hesitation/stumbling in speech is not something I notice all the time. Most of the time it's not there, just sometimes. I notice it mostly when he's reading aloud. And the gasping for breath tends to happen when he's telling a "story" or describing something that is long and involved.

Also, he tends to make descriptions far more involved than necessary! For example, where another child might say "I fell and bumped my knee and it hurts a lot," this is what DS8 might say:

"I was starting to go upstairs because I wanted to put these Legos away in my room like you ask me to because I'm trying to be, be, you know, more responsible, and I was hurrying (gasp for air) because I didn't want it to take so long because there's a new Avatar on soon and I want to see it because if I don't see it tonight I don't know when it will be on again. I mean, I know they always show reruns but I don't (gasp for air) know exactly when and I don't want to miss it, and, and then [sister's name] yelled really loud to come see something in her room and distracted me, and she didn't need to yell because I was right there on the (gasp for air) stairs. I hate when she does that because she doesn't always have to be so loud and how many times have you and Dad told her that already? And, um, but, so she yelled and I was going upstairs and I had my hands full of Legos and I didn't, didn't, um, notice that someone (gasp for air) left a shoe on the steps, it was my shoe, one of my blue sneakers, not the old sneakers with, with the laces missing but those new ones, um, Nana got me before, before school started, I think, you know which ones I mean? Okay, and I don't know who left it there 'cause I know I put them (gasp for air) away like I'm supposed to. And then, uh, I, uh, I was yelling back at [sister] to wait a minute and then I tripped over the shoe and fell and (gasp for air) I hit my knee on the step, the third step from the top or it might have been the fourth, and I hit it really hard. I almost hit my nose, too, but I lifted my head up at the last second so, so, uh, it wouldn't be a big catastrophe and you'd have to take me to the hospital and get stitches (gasp for air) or something, like when you had that bike accident and hit your nose on the street. But I hit my knee really hard and I pulled up my pant leg and looked and there's some skin scraped off and it's bleeding a little, not a lot, but I (gasp for air) I think I should get a bandaid and some Neosporin, because it really hurts a lot, and I'll probably have a big bruise there tomorrow. And now there's Legos all over the stairs and I think [sister] should have to pick them up because she's probably the one who left my shoe there because I remember yesterday she was (gasp for air) using it as a boat for her pink unicorn, the one she got for Christmas in her stocking. This year, not last year. And can you get, um, get me the baidand because it hurts when I walk."

Whew!

GG
LOL!!! What a whirlwind of ideas! No wonder he doesn't have time to get the breathing into a rhythm!!

He sounds charming!
Cool GG,
But I can't picture what kind of responce that speech would bring in a school environment!
T
Had to laugh GG, you just described how my son talks :-)He is much older (amlost 12) but still haven't lost that talent for making everything sound so complicated:-) Sometimes, when I am absolutely not in the mood to listen , I just tell him to tell me the last sentence. Does you son talk VERY fast? Does he occasionally "skip" the verbal explanation to catch up with his thinking and then he has you lost completely? Mine does.
Trin mentioned school in regards to this - not helpful at all. Last year the teacher named my son "totally random" which pretty much summed him up :-) But my son eventally learned how to give good oral presentations .
As far as breathing goes - I have heard that swimming really helps (chuckle)
Ania
Originally Posted by willagayle
LOL!!! What a whirlwind of ideas! No wonder he doesn't have time to get the breathing into a rhythm!!

He sounds charming!


Thanks, Fite. I think he's quite charming (most of the time). Actually, some of the anecdotes you've shared about Mite remind me of my son. They seem to think in similar (complex) ways. DS8 is the kind of child who, instead of saying "I love you, Mom" will say things like "I really missed you yesterday, but then I thought about how our hearts are always connected by an invisible thread of love, even when we're not together."

Or (this was one morning in first grade, as he headed out the door to the bus stop): "When you were a kid, didn't you love it when there was a slight breeze in the morning air and it would dry the little tears in your eyes before you got to the bus stop, so the other kids wouldn't know you were a little sad about being away from your mom all day?"

Yes, he's a heart-melter. Maybe he should write for Hallmark.

GG
GG,

Your son�s story sounds like something my daughter would tell. The gasping for air issue also sounds familiar. I have always described her as having some difficulty in sequencing a story. She also sounds a bit ditsy sometimes (think valley girl �very excited and animated). I had never considered this as anything more than personality. When she was evaluated for the other issues, the testers came back with a term I had never heard regarding her oral expressive language, �cluttering�.

Two years ago, she was seen at a university Psych Ed. dept. to narrow down the 2E issues that I have described in other posts. We met with the department head for the debrief (approx. 2 hours). I told her that I usually explained to our daughter�s teachers that she has a �subtle learning difference� to with she responded �there is nothing subtle about your daughter�s learning disability�. I found that statement both validating (because our entire public district thought I was nuts) and frightening at the same time. I mentioned before that she has extremely low phonological distinction ability which was consistent with their findings, the U also suspects auditory processing deficits and regarding her speech, a condition called cluttering. She recommended a follow up with an audiologist and speech therapist. She suggested that we get very selective and look for professionals who understand that a gifted child might present differently than an average child.

We have chosen not to get the follow-ups because our daughter is such a successful student. As long as that holds, we intend to focus on her strengths rather then relative weakness. That being said, I do discuss with her that she may need to watch a teacher speak and other compensation strategies. I do believe that having a self awareness of areas of difficulty can help. Of course, if her grades declined, we would revisit this issue.

As far a reading aloud, my kids were not great at this until around 10. My daughter�s first K teacher (private school) gave me a very good explanation for this. Essentially, it is the sight word versus phonological reader difference. She said that kids who read by sight often have higher comprehension of what they read. Phonological readers may sound like professors in their pronunciation, but might not have a clear understanding of the meaning of what they read. Sight readers often substitute words while they read because they are anticipating what will come next. Since I believe the purpose of reading is to understand information, I never worried too much about this (although I did consider it a clue in determining their learning styles). With age, it is no longer an issue.

Well, between this and Fite�s info, I guess you will be doing some research. Good luck!
Originally Posted by Trinity
Cool GG,
But I can't picture what kind of responce that speech would bring in a school environment!
T


Well, Trin, he's learned by now that he can't do those super-long explanations at school! At least not very often. He knows most teachers don't have the time/patience for it and most kids stop paying attention after the first sentence or two. I think he saves the long, complicated speeches for home.
Originally Posted by Ania
Had to laugh GG, you just described how my son talks :-) He is much older (amlost 12) but still haven't lost that talent for making everything sound so complicated:-)
Oh Ania, if our sons ever met... can you imagine the interesting conversations they could have?!

Originally Posted by Ania
Sometimes, when I am absolutely not in the mood to listen, I just tell him to tell me the last sentence.
Nodding here... yup, I do the same sometimes. Generally I try to be patient and let him talk, but at times I do say (during his little gasps for air) "can you skip to the end?" or "I don't have much time; just tell me the most important part." I try to avoid yelling GET TO THE POINT! though I do think it in my head sometimes. :-)

Originally Posted by Ania
Does you son talk VERY fast? Does he occasionally "skip" the verbal explanation to catch up with his thinking and then he has you lost completely?
Ania


No, I guess our boys differ there. On these long stories, mine talks at a normal to slow pace (unless he's really excited about something) and he says things with great emotion and facial expression, and sometimes acting out what he's describing. I haven't noticed the other thing you mentioned either (skipping the explanation).

Re: swimming & breathing, he's still a little scared of the water. Getting better, but doesn't do real "swimming" yet. But I'm thinking this summer might be time for swim lessons.

GG
Diana--Thanks, wow, this is so interesting. I've never heard of cluttering, either, in regards to speech. I will definitely research it.

I can relate to much of what you wrote about your daughter. I often feel that something is going on with DS8 that I haven't discovered yet, if that makes sense. I don't even know how to describe it. I don't know if it's just giftededness or gifted + ADD, or both of those plus something else.... I guess it's like your sense of a "subtle learning difference" with your daughter and not knowing what it is. I would feel silly bringing it up with anyone at school because, like your daughter, DS is a very successful student.

Thanks again for your input.

GG
GG - it's excellent that your son is savy enough to save it for home at such a young age! Score points for social skills!

Also my heart goes out to you in the "does he or doesn't he" have subtle learning differences. It's tough to be so unsure in the backround. I haven't any words of wisdom, just sympathy.

Trinity
Originally Posted by Galaxy Girl
I often feel that something is going on with DS8 that I haven't discovered yet, if that makes sense. I don't even know how to describe it. I don't know if it's just giftededness or gifted + ADD, or both of those plus something else.... I guess it's like your sense of a "subtle learning difference" with your daughter and not knowing what it is. I would feel silly bringing it up with anyone at school because, like your daughter, DS is a very successful student.

The first response of her MD and IQ tester is it looks like ADD. It's not that I am opposed to that label and meds, but rather than accepting the default DX, I wanted to rule out other possibilities. (The Conner's scale where she came out borderline with us was not enough "proof").

My concern when she was in first grade was that we couldn't determine if this would be a problem for her because the bar was so low that her performance on grade level academics was not a valid predictor of future preformance (when she met a challenge). Also, we were told by a non-district professional that gifted kids with LD usually did well (based on prior knowledge and compensation) until 4th, 5th,or 6th grade. Now that she has passed those grades without problems, I am more relaxed. Still a bit concerned about high school in two years though!
Sorry to interupt the flow of conversation, but I wanted to update you regarding Mite and the keyboard.

You may recall last week I was under the impression they were going to provide Mite a keyboard for classroom usage.

Well, I just received an email from the AT person who assessed Mite last week and she says that while he has improved in keyboarding skills, she still does not feel his speed is sufficient for classroom work.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH!!! This is the same person who at the IEP meetins always chants the "least restrictive environment" mantra. I truly feel her "assessment" held a strong "anti-accomodation" bias.

Gosh it feels like we inch forward then plummet backward. How can she see what he wrote last week on the keyboard? Why does she want to limit him to drabble and scribble when he's capable of diamonds and gold?

What to do now?

ok Wadafite....breathe breathe GASP!!!:^)
At community college, anyone receiving accomodations such as scribing, having tests read to them, or using alternate input devices, receives time and a half on quizzes, exams, etc. So, if DS13 takes a quiz in the DSPS office with a scribe and the rest of the class is allowed 30 minutes for the quiz, then he is allowed 45 minutes.

Also, DS13 is not proficient enough at keyboarding to accomdate himself yet. Therefore, he receives notes from other students and uses a scribe for exams rather than a computer. Eventually, he will need to increase his keyboard speed so he can accomplish most of these things on his own. It is funny that in K-12 they discourage using computers to take notes in the classroom, but in college you see a lot of that. One of DS13's scribes in Cultural Anthropology used to take notes on her laptop in class and then e-mail them to him immediately after class. They were the most comprehensive notes he has received.

David E.
They don't want to provide a scribe in classroom. He does get a scribe for one assignment "at the teacher's discretion" (though I haven't signed that yet, btw). Of course, the teacher's discretion means minimal scribing. She doesn't think it is necessary because she "can read his writing".

This is 3rd grade, gifted cluster, so there isn't much to be had notes wise. They are supposed to send homework home for the extended time, but that is not happening. They won't scribe for mathematics, either.


Really 3rd grade gifted cluster is way below his ability and they aren't even allowing him to perform at this level.

I'm beginning to think ***I*** might have to provide his scribing services and be a constant presence in the classroom.

that outta make em shudder in their pumps!!!

One way or the other I'm getting ready for another IEP meeting and this time I won't be fooled by "nice". This is so ridiculous. How can he improve in typing his thoughts if he's not given a chance to actually compose those thoughts on a regular basis?

Does any one here use keyboard in the classroom for the kid and have success? What is the typing speed? How did you get it into the classroom?


breathe breathe breathe
DS10 fluctuates between using keyboard in the classroom on a lap top that he brings himself,and using the computers that are in each classroom. Sometimes he handwrites, but as with Mite, he shares so much more of his soul via keyboard. At age 9, it "clicked" and he is about 60 wpm or higher now.

I do think that picking up speed is not the goal during classroom product, but should be it's own thing. OTOH I wouldn't prevent him from keyboarding now, as it's obviously important for him NOW.

Best wishes,
Trin
Really all he needs to write for note taking is 4-5 words now and then. For the classroom tasks, though, he needs a sentence or two several times a day. These desk work tasks are coming back home with 2 or 3 words per question, when they should be short answer essay or at least a couple of sentences.

Maybe if keyboarding isn't the answer, then we should make them use a taperecorder.

He is NOT MOTIVATED TO WRITE (not yelling at anyone in particular...just yellin8^) when his output is the illegible scribble. He needs motivation to write. He has so many beautiful thoughts and words in him and they don't CARE to read them, I guess.

deep cleansing breath....
Trin-
did you just let him keyboard as he wishes or did you do keyboarding lessons?

Oh, Willa! This is getting ridiculous - sorry, you already KNOW that!!!

It shouldn't matter how fast he can keyboard. What should matter is how well can he produce written work (quantity AND quality) with the keyboard versus handwriting. IF he can produce a better quality end product with the keyboard, that should take precedent. And I would guess that he can actually produce that quality at a faster rate than if he were handwriting.

They shouldn't be withholding the keyboard until he can, for example, type 20 WPM or something like that. But they SHOULD be providing him time for keyboarding practice in school IF they have agreed that eventually keyboarding is going to be a viable option for him. Do the educators NOT know what dysgraphia is????!!!!

I'll breath deeply with you now.
Here's a thought - ask the teacher how she would feel by the end of the day if she had to use the pen in her toes all day. Tell her that's how Mite feels.
thanks! I'll ask that one. Maybe I'll even offer her a pen to try it!!! chuckle.

One thing that bothers me about all this is that I like to LIKE people and these people are very hard to like.


I agree that if the keyboarding produces better results it should be used. They don't want to allow school time for practice, though. They are just "so busy" with "only 6.5 hours to teach so many kids". I get so tired of their cliches.

I just wish they could take on his perspective. He has nothing to motivate him....the curriculum isn't stimulating, his hands don't work, reading is boring in school and impossible orally.

I know I know...homeschool. sigh if only....


the AT won't even tell me what his wpm and accuracy were. THAT ticks me off!!!

I'm pretty certain they HAVE to give you the results of any evaulation they do on your child.

Have you considered hiring a lawyer? There are some that specialize in special ed. cases.
I would think that brining your own laptop to school, as Trinity's DS10 does, would make it easier on them. Any typing program will tell you Mite's typing speed and corrected typing speed.

I would focus on how to make it easier for them at the meeting. With a laptop, Mite can be more independent and complete assignments with a greater level of complexity and detail. Eventually, the laptop will be his saviour, so why put it off?

Math is the only tricky thing. Maple is a great math program which performs symbolic algebra, but it also does it all for you which you don't want at this level.

Regarding the gifted instruction being below Mite's level, we were disappointed by that too. At the beginning of the year the teacher would explain exciting things the gifted group were going to do. However, as she implemented them and DS13 was the only one capable of doing it, she then watered it down and then it was no longer valuable. Of course, no school is set up to teach the few percent of the population that can excel like Mite. But, with a keyboard he can express himself, and lots of outside reading provides background information, vocabulary, spelling, grammar, etc.

David E.
I'm hoping not to go the lawyer route just yet. I have been very kind to these people. Right now I think one of the problems is the principal, who has been very helpful, has been gone a lot with admin. mtgs. So, he's not around to keep 'em in line.

I wish I could buy a laptop. We're so strapped right now; it will be summer before we can dreg the pennies together. It is, however, on the top of our list.

I'm going to start asking around and see if we can find a used one. Maybe I'll give up mine. I don't know.

The problem is, though, if they aren't willing to help him implement it in the classroom, it's an excercise in defeat.

Willa, this makes me so angry to read what you're going through with the school. Especially that the AT won't tell you his WPM and accuracy scores, etc. How ridiculous. This is your child, you have a right to know how he tested! Arggh. I wish I had some good advice to add, but I don't--other than to keep fighting ("Fite-ing"--smile) for him.

Is there anyone higher up who can help you advocate? Anyone in the district or ISD offices? Local or state gifted groups? The state special ed coordinator? I mean, this is ridiculous. And it sounds like it is just going to drag on the same way until the year is over, with no changes being made.

I have a friend IRL who was having problems with her daughter's school not accommodating her needs. Talks with the teacher were getting nowhere--oh, except she found out the teacher had never bothered to read her daughters IEP. The situation escalated while the teacher/school admin. kept putting her off and "being nice" and promising to meet again, review things, etc. Her daughter was miserable. Finally my friend took her daughter out of school, called the principal and said "I'm keeping her home until this is resolved." Also put it in writing, with copies to higher ups--superintendent, etc. Within three days she had calls from the district SPED administrators asking how they could help her work things out.

Sometimes you have to do something drastic before you get action.

My heart is with you,

GG
Mavis Beacon teaches typing. I bribed him, starting at age seven. Only took two years off and on. LOL
Willa:
For advocacy ideas and the law, check out www.wrightslaw.com

Do you have a Center for Independent Living in MN that serves your area? If so see if they have a Youth Advocate. You and Mite can access their services for free. Maybe you just need to find the right tools and ammo to bring to the next meeting wink
Sometimes just mentioning "due process" makes them jump into action!
I'm ready with the "due process" at the tip of my tongue, Debbie. Can't tell you how many times it has been bitten back. I want to USE it very effectively when I need to.

One thing I have planned to say to the AT who is always spouting "least restrictive environment" is "least restrictive environment to PROVIDE ACCESS the general curriculum NOT TO KEEP THE DISTRICT BUDGET DOWN AND TEACHERS' AND "AT" CONVENIENCE TO MAXIMUM" I really think she keeps knocking him down because SHE doesn't want to spend the time helping him and setting it up for the teachers. She's the one who'd have to convert the assigments for the keyboarding.

ok...got the yelling out here so maybe I can be calm when I say that to her:^)

To Diana: Thank you so much for telling me about Cluttering. I think this is what my son has! I started a new thread to tell you more (don't want to keep disrupting Fite's original thread on keyboarding, etc.--sorry about that, Fite).

GG
NOt a problem. I love the way these "conversations" drift along need by need. REally I learn so much and find it so helpful and interesting.

I really did hate interrupting the flow. :^)

now I have a question about cluttering and speed. this is about moi, not Mite or Rite. I speak very very quickly. So quickly I am often asked to "slow down". The principal at Mite's school often asks me to slow down because he can't understand me. My older bro also speaks very very quickly and doesn't move his lips when he speaks. Neither do I apparently but I ain't go no lips to speak of:^)

Anyhow, I've been told I articulate clearly but speak very rapidly.

After a car accident in Sept. I started stuttering and having difficulty with word retrieval.

Could these be symptoms of cluttering?

Or am I just weird? (now bite your tongues:^)!!! lol
You said:
SHE doesn't want to spend the time helping him and setting it up for the teachers. She's the one who'd have to convert the assigments for the keyboarding.

What do you mean "convert the assignments" for keyboarding? Do tell, WG.
from what I understand if he keyboards then the assignments have to be converted so he can the answers into the appropriate spots on some of the tasks. I don't quite understand why he can't just type the answers with the number before it, but she says that won't work for everything.

i really don't get the hesitation at all Trin. He handwrites at 6 wpm. He keyboard faster than that, I know he does. So, everything she says just seems to be an excuse.
Originally Posted by willagayle
I really did hate interrupting the flow. :^)

You didn't interrupt the flow, Fite, you just guided the errant stream back to the main river. :-)
Originally Posted by willagayle
I speak very very quickly.
So quickly I am often asked to "slow down".
The principal at Mite's school often asks me to slow down because he can't understand me.

After a car accident in Sept. I started stuttering and having difficulty with word retrieval.

Could these be symptoms of cluttering?

Okay, Fite, keeping in mind that everything I know about this I learned in the past two days, the answer is Yes, these are all symptoms of Cluttering--except the Stuttering. Stuttering and Cluttering are different; stuttering is a speech disorder, and cluttering is a language disorder--it has to do with the ability to organize language. (But, what you call stuttering might actually be cluttering. Confused yet? LOL Tell us how what you call stuttering manifests and I can tell you more.)

A problem with *rate of speech* is a key defining factor in diagnosis. Which means, the speech is too fast, or too "choppy," or both -- which makes it sound disfluent.

I have tons of information I've been compiling and would be happy to email if you want it. Meanwhile...

Here is some info from the ASHA:

"The definition of cluttering adopted by the fluency disorders division of the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association says cluttering is a fluency disorder characterized by a rapid and/or irregular speaking rate, excessive disfluencies and often other symptoms such as language or phonological errors and attention deficits.

Evidence for a fluency disorder �one that is not stuttering� and excessive disfluencies, would be present in a speaker who meets all of the following:

Does not sound "fluent," that is, does not seem to be clear about what he or she wants to say or how to say it;
Has excessive levels of "normal disfluencies," such as interjections and revisions;
Has little or no apparent physical struggle in speaking;
Has few if any accessory (secondary) behaviors.

A rapid and/or irregular speaking rate would be present in a speaker who has any or all of the following:

Talks "too fast" based on an overall impression or actual syllable per minute counts;
Sounds "jerky";
Has pauses that are too short, too long or improperly placed.

These fluency and rate deviations are the essential symptoms of cluttering.

In addition, however, there are a number of symptoms suggested in the latter part of the above definition that may or may not be present, but add support to the impression that a person is cluttering. Accordingly, the clinical picture of a typical cluttering problem would be enhanced if the person in question had any of the following:

Confusing, disorganized language or conversational skills;
Limited awareness of his or her fluency and rate problems;
Temporary improvement when asked to "slow down" or "pay attention" to speech;
Mispronunciation or slurrring of speech sounds or deleting non-stressed syllables in longer words (e.g., "ferchly" for "fortunately");
Speech that is difficult to understand;
Several blood relatives who stutter or clutter;
Social or vocational problems resulting from cluttering symptoms;
Learning disability not related to reduced intelligence;
Sloppy handwriting;
Distractibility, hyperactivity or a limited attention span;
Auditory perceptual difficulties."


Hope this helps!
GG
P.S. to Fite: I should add that I read a person can have both cluttering and stuttering. But then I read other things saying they are very different. I found a chart that compared the differences between the two. I can email that to you if you want. Or maybe I'll try to post it in the Clutterers thread I just started.

Also interesting to me, since at times I've wondered "ADD?" about DS8, was to read that there is a link between cluttering and ADD. Not that all Clutterers have ADD but there is often an overlap of symptoms, or a tendency to mistake Cluttering symptoms as ADD. Of course, a person can have both disorders. Cluttering has a lot to do with (in)ability to organize--so does ADD. I read that clutterers tend to be capable of macro-organizing (setting up big systems, abstract thought, connecting seemingly unrelated things) but very bad at micro-organizing (following or maintaining organized systems day to day, attention to details, etc.).

Other tidbits:
Clutters tend to be visual-spatial/wholistic thinkers (goes with the macro-organizing, the abstract thought); have trouble with sequential recall; trouble with word retrieval; above-average intelligence; excel in math and abstract sciences; have sloppy handwriting; messy bedrooms (that's the "bad at micro-organizing" part); and often little to no awareness of their disorder.
Well, I hit on a few of those things. Rite is a fast talker, but very clear and articulate. He meets all the criteri(a? on?) above.

Something else to ponder.
an update....with medication to calm my nervous system I've stopped stuttering!! please note the stuttering was only after the car accident. my doc thinks it was from the pressure on my spinal cord and brain stem due to injury from the accident. one way or the other, I'm so glad to talking like my old fast talking self!!! :^)

I do talk very rapidly, but people say usually I am very articulate and they understand what I'm saying but have a hard time keeping up with the idea flow.

so, I'm wondering, since I type so fast (90 wpm), do you guys have trouble keeping up with my idea flow in my posts?? ;^()!!

LOL- WG!
We read you loud and clear! It helps to have listeners who have some kind of frame of reference, no?

So glad you are speaking freely again! and Happy Mother's Day!

Trin
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