I've learned a lot about parenting a very literal kid - how to be specific in my directions with him, how best to diffuse misunderstandings with a teacher who doesn't understand his literalness, and how to be patient when he says things that others would interpret as rude and help him learn to reword sometimes to be more polite.

But I am amazed at how poor I still am at not recognizing when an attitude or behavior might be due to his literal interpretation of something.

Tonight he was expressing how he didn't think he should have to be nice to a certain student at school who has been rather obnoxious to him. In frustration, I finally told him that I was really concerned about his attitude that he only had to be nice to kids that were nice to him - that life didn't work that way. He looked quite confused and said, "But that is what our principal has told us every day since kindergarten."

That didn't sit quite right, so I asked him when the principal had said this. "Every morning at the end of announcements. He says, '... and remember, treat others the way you want them to treat you."

Ok. That didn't clear it up for me, so I asked how that meant he could be mean to some kids. "Because. They hear the same rule every day. So if this is how they are to me every day, that is how they want to be treated."

When the lightbulb finally turned on, we were able to have a conversation about what it actually meant.

And all this time, I've been worrying about this attitude, and it was because he thought that was the rule.

I have got to get better at asking him more questions that I just wouldn't ask my other kids.

Your post made me giggle because it reminded me of my DS when I read it. My son is very literal, almost to the point that it makes no sense (which is kind of paradoxal).

When he was about 4 years old we went to bouncy house/open gym night at school. We told him that he had to stand in line to wait until it was his turn. He just kept standing in one spot awkwardly. My husband and I kept telling him to move ahead but he wouldn't. Finally we realized that he was standing on a line (for the basketball court) on the floor and he thought he had to stay there because we told him to "stand in line" :-D

Great insight!

My husband said he wondered if my son knew that he should ask questions at school if he didn't know how to do something. I told my son, you know how sometimes you have a brain fart and forget how to write a letter and you ask me and I tell you how to draw that letter. Yes. Do you know you can ask your teacher if you don't understand or know something? he said, no, because I asked my teacher and she said she won't help me.

I ask you every day what happened at school, why didn't you tell me this? This is why I ask. I called my mom and said the teacher probably only told him that once or twice and mom said, he's a five year old. The teacher probably told him that once, and meant she wouldn't help him that time, and being five, he took it to mean she wouldn't help him period. kids <3. Literalism.. lol

How can you ask more questions about things u never would have thought about?

Yes - this is what I struggle with. I am so intuitive, I really have no clue sometimes what small things that he has interpreted in some literal way may be creating rather large difficulties. I wish I could get more in tune with it to know how.

Maybe you could ask him to briefly journal his day with you and highlight any encounters where people reacted adversely. The exercise might give you insight into where to ask questions.

I haven't BTDT, so this is a shot-in-the-dark suggestion based on a self-reflection technique I use.

I have had several instances of my ds literal interpretation causing him misinterpretation of the situation. It has been quite challenging, especially because combined with that his sensitive and pleaser personality. My ds has come home with no lunchbox, because he got injured on the playground and was taken to the clinic, was ok, returned to class; but he never asked his teacher about his lunchbox. Why? "It wasn't my turn to speak to her."

It is so hard to know what to ask, because ds won't necessarily tell me everything about his day. I walk a fine line of asking questions and letting him talk before he tells me, "I don't want to talk about school".

I've also noticed (which I'm sure is age related/ maturity level), ds doesn't want to talk to people or read slang or bad grammar. All of these things have made making friends at school hard for him.

Not sure how I could be more aware, but I find myself frequently trying to explain situations to him.

aquinas- even when I was on business in New York last week, but son called after school to go through his day, period by period. It is a ritual for him that helps him digest the day. But, unfortunately, he doesn't always tell me about the things that would send up a red flag where I could help him understand what someone actually meant. If only!

Darn! I figured it was probably an overly simplistic solution.

Any chance the teachers who notice the most red flags would be willing to send you a weekly update so that you can hone in on "problem" areas? You might be able to market it as working with them to help remediate past issues that have cropped up.

I'm going to keep reflecting on this! I'd love to see you make more breakthroughs like the one described with your son.

Don't mean to thread hijack, but I have to ask. My DD is extremely literal. Is this a common gifted kiddo thing or a sign of something else?

My dd5 too. When asked what he wants to be when he grows up-- a man! Will never dress up for Halloween. He is better now and uses "expressions", but he always has to follow up his statement by saying, "that's just an expression".
I expect they outgrow it over time as they learn deeper vocab usage and nuance...and I imagine every kid has a slightly different starting point and ending point, but mine did seem to start out more literal than other kids. He didn't want to be anything for Halloween, because he didn't want to turn into that thing. I always thought it was interesting...but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Why wouldn't we say just what we mean?

My guess is it's just an age thing, because the way we communicate with each other is terribly complicated, and it takes a significant amount of time to learn the nuances. For example:

1) We expect people to pick up things unsaid due to context. Young children don't have enough contextual exposure to guess them correctly.

2) One of the great difficulties of learning the English language is the heavy use of idioms and slang. We often say one thing and mean another.

Some of these examples in this thread, IMO, reflect these challenges. Like, when the teacher said, "I'm not going to help you," she left it to the child to assume that "on this task" was implied but unsaid.

In combination with other social skills challenges, this kind of literal thinking is commonly found in people who have autism spectrum disorders.

But having this trait alone is NOT diagnostic of autism.

DeeDee

I'd be curious to know if anyone here has a child with this issue but feels entirely confident that ASD is not on the table. (My DD has a tendency towards literal thinking as well, though it's not nearly as pronounced as some kids' seems to be. It's also improved. She does not like to be joked with in this way, still, but recognizes that it is joking.)

My son has several strong Aspergers traits, but the psychiatrist has ruled out autism and specifically Aspergers. He says some traits can also be present in individuals with high IQ's who don't have Aspergers.. What he said was a good litmus test is if the traits get better or worse over time. If they get better over time, it usually isn't Aspergers. Not that individuals with Aspergers can't gain coping skills, but the core of traits remain.

This goes against the grain of both our experience and what our professionals tell us. For some people, with intervention, the noticeable traits of autism become much less evident to other people over time. (Which is not to say that they become "not autistic.")

http://jerobison.blogspot.com/2013/01/can-we-outgrow-autism.html

DeeDee

I'm glad you posted, DeeDee. It was what we were told, and he has a lot more training than I do, but it didn't quite sit right with me either,

The other day I was watching a rerun of the season of America's Next Top Model where one of the contestants had Aspergers. It was interesting to see how the other women in the house became so impatient with her and she just could not understand why. At one point they were all packing their suitcases and someone said to her "Heather if you stood up for one second I could get my suitcase by you." The girl just sort of nodded and kept right on packing while the other girls all exchanged exasperated looks. Finally someone said "Heather can you stand up for one minute." I thought to myself -Bingo! Perfect example of literal thinking and the need for direct requests. The first statement was simply an observation but the second was a request with which she immediately complied. Seen as the same thing in "typical" conversation but 2 totally different messages to this young woman. If someone - teacher or peer - doesn't understand this basic concept your literal thinker is likely to be labeled rude or uncooperative or inappropriate even if that is not their intent.

ABQMom, have you considered getting a second opinion? Gifted kids are obviously very difficult to make a call on, particularly if they are quite borderline, but your son seems to be having a lot of difficulties.

Pemberly my DD is (generally) not so literal that she rings alarm bells for most people (a lot of the very extreme examples they give of literalness in books on ASD she would not do), but she is CONSTANTLY having those subtle communication failures that lead to people being irritated, frustrated, etc. She seems like she is being deliberately obtuse, cheeky, stupid, or some other negative attribute, when she simply doesn't get it. We ourselves missed how much of our difficulty in parenting her came from these more subtle issues of literal thinking.

You know I was about to say that if I said to her:"you need to put yourself in someone else's shoes" she wouldn't say "Why would I want to do that?" But now that I think about it I wonder if she doesn't get it, but does have enough of a clue to not reveal that she doesn't get it. Maybe her literalness is worse even than we realise. The more we have understood what to look for the more often DH and I give each other the look about her communication misfires.

Mumofthree- this is actually our third opinion. No to ADD, ADHD, Aspergers from all three. Yes to auditory processing disorder, fine motor developmental disorder, dysgraphia, dyslexia, and to some specific Aspie traits.

Did they tell you what piece was missing to be considered either ADD, ADHD or ASD? Both paeds we have seen tend to consider all of those disorders either symptoms of or commonly co-morbid with some sort of umbrella condition like ASD, ADD or ADHD, particularly once you start seeing a whole cluster of them not just one. My question is not doubting you, but curiosity as to the different ways different professionals think about these things (my own DD has CAPD, dyslexia, SPD and gross motor issues, all picked up before the Aspergers diagnosis).

Just curious: My DD's cluster of dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyspraxia, math disability (weaknesses in visual perception, fine motor and working memory) coupled with super high verbal led to an "NLD-ish" diagnosis. She is missing the social component for an actual NLD diagnosis. In other words she does not have the issues being discussed here. Did anyone ever mention this one as a possibility for you?

I had this thought too-- again, not doubting you, ABQ, you are a very perceptive parent. But your DS does read as being very like mine, who has the ASD diagnosis. There's enough of a dash of autism in there that I'm really surprised your DS didn't get at least a PDD-NOS dx. But yes, practitioners do differ tremendously in how they make ASD diagnoses.

DeeDee

Ok ... what is PDD-NOS?

For ADD and ADHD - he's been screened several times by different evaluators - two neuropsychs (although the last I didn't trust his results at all for any of the tests), a psychiatrist, a psychologist and the school diagnostician. He doesn't score high enough on any of the screening tests to indicate it - and I'd agree.

For the ASD, he doesn't have a couple of the major traits - he has a lot of friends, is a leader, has a strong sense of humor and a couple of the other traits. At the moment I forget which ones. The traits he does have, he has to a pretty strong degree - he will still go to the nurse thinking he is sick and not associating his headache, stomach ache, etc. with anxiety over the test he just took or the problem he just had with a teacher chewing him out for something. He is very literal. Very. He doesn't judge space correctly - always in my way when we're walking, etc. Doesn't always read social cues or pick up on them.

So thus far, the psychiatrist wrote a letter to the evaluation team at the school saying he was being followed for an eventual diagnosis which might include ... and then he threw the gamut of possible diagnoses in the list so that they could use the letter to allow for behavioral modifications in his IEP. But this doctor deals with a lot of autism and gifted kids and says he thinks my son's is more related to his high IQ (which has yet to be detected on a standard test but is very obvious) than to autism. His advice is that if we can get accommodations, there is no need to put a label too soon.

Then again, his comments about whether it is or is not ASD didn't ring quite right, so I'm just in a big bowl of muddle soup.

Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified (tells you nothing, right?). The DSM-4 left open the possibility of saying "this isn't Asperger's, it's not classic autism, and yet the person has many features that suggest he's on the autism spectrum"--those cases that don't meet the AS or "classic autism" definitions have typically been called PDD-NOS.

Technically, that label has now been absorbed into the diagnosis of "autism spectrum disorder" in the DSM-5. It's all "autism" now. But it has been widely reported that none of the borderline cases should now be considered off the spectrum-- that is, if someone was likely to be PDD-NOS before, they have "autism" now, and best practice right now is that doctors are supposed to use the DSM-4 and DSM-5 in tandem to calibrate their judgments during the transition.


Has he ever had an ADOS? This is generally considered the most trusted test for ruling autism in or out.


Sense of humor does not let you rule in or out autism. Our DS 10 (who definitely has autism) is quite funny, and has always understood puns and other kinds of non-literal humor.


Some of the anecdotes you've posted in the past have been strongly reminiscent of my DS.


Is your doc generally label-resistant? I guess my feeling on whether it matters to have the label is, yes and no. True, if school is working, you might not need the label; but we have found that the label gets us out-of-school services (social skills training, CBT targeted specifically to his deficits). The label has also helped us both explain DS to others AND raise our own awareness of what to work on, what to watch out for, what is likely to arise, helping us prepare for the next hurdles.

I'm not label-shy... I think it's good for a kid to have a handle on his challenges. Sounds like yours does, so the label may or may not matter to you.

Interesting that his IQ has never registered as high. One neuropsych told us that IQ scores tend to get higher and more coherent (less spiky) as autism is remediated. We have found that to be the case; DS only looks more and more extreme in his giftedness as we work on his ability to understand other people.

I'm not trying to challenge you or your docs. Ultimately, you decide whose professional judgment you trust, and then you take their advice seriously.

It's a very interesting business, isn't it.

DeeDee

Very interesting. My daughter also has a lot of friends but is literal (not extremely so--it's not a big problem, but is notiecable), has a poor sense of space, and shows some other ASD red flags as well as some ADHD flags. I think she may also have SPD, which sort of comes and goes. She is considered mildly low in muscle tone. My other child is officially diagnosed with hypotonia but has no symptoms of anything SPD-ish or ASD-ish.

We have seen some things really improve with time with no intervention. Others remain of concern. The psych who evaluated her felt that her anxiety was causing the symptoms we saw as ASD-ish.

She is not having any issues whatsoever at school or with friendships. We have behavioral concerns at home that seem mostly driven by emotional intensity/depression, but I also feel she seems jittery/dysregulated and unfocused. No one seems concerned about that at school at this time and she is a straight A student, so I don't know what to make of that.

I don't consider it a challenge at all, DeeDee. If I have learned anything raising my son, it is that I don't have the answers sometimes and can use all the help and advice I can get. Then I have more tools at my disposal to figure out what works best for my kiddo.

And you're right, some of his traits make me think, oh, this is definitely autism. But then other times I am convinced just as strongly that it isn't. I'm not shy of labels, but I also want to make sure we take enough time to make sure it is the right label.

ABQmom - we had to try twice to get our DD diagnosed (with aspergers), the first time it seemed like they agreed and then it went south in a quite mystifying way, we actually suspect they lost their notes or just noted hard (bordeline) test results and forgot their "soft" impressions which had guided them in giving their opinion verbally on the first day. Second time she was diagnosed, though it was very clear that one if the two opinions was unconvinced and gave the diagnosis grudgingly. The other opinion provider believed us, agreed it's mild but there. I swing between thinking I am crazy to think she is anything but normal and knowing that she is distinctly not normal and the label will help her understand her own difference and help us get her the services and understanding she needs to adapt and thrive. We could easily have not labelled her, she's borderline, but there are increasingly questions she asks us to which the appropriate answer is "because you have aspergers dear, but we can help you work on that". To me that is a better answer than "I don't know" or more negative labels she may get from teachers or peers in response to those issues, I'd rather tell her she has aspergers, it makes her think differently, than "you're lazy/stupid/annoying/rude/deliberately difficult". Certainly when there are issues at school teachers are more responsive to a label, partly because a professional has said it's "real" an partly because the label tells them allowances need to be made and hopefully what kind.

I guess I'm really in no hurry to put a label on it as long as we have the accommodations in place at school. I don't want him saddled with a label that is hard to get rid of in my haste to get a diagnosis, and since it isn't really cut and dried, I'm ok with the "time will tell" approach. But when I talk about difficulties with him, we talk about his Aspergers traits, and he is also able to relate to his dad who has a lot of the same traits.

ABQ, that makes sense to me. If all the accommodations and therapies he needs are available to him, the label might be superfluous. For our family, it's been extremely helpful to have a label-- but I'm well aware that not only is every kid different from every other, but health care and education are also local matters, differing vastly from place to place. Everyone's mileage may vary.

DeeDee

DD11 is quite literal, if not as extreme as some of the kids here, but I'm about 99 percent sure ASD is not an issue. She's very precise with language, and idioms tend to drive her nuts.

She's one of those kids who will follow the letter of the law, but not necessarily the spirit, so we spend a lot of time detailing the exceptions and closing the loopholes for any of our rules.

In addition, she frequently does her schoolwork twice, particularly for questions like "What do you think?" or "What would you do?" She'll answer with what she considers to be the *correct* answer first, and then she'll answer the way the teacher wants. (She only turns in the second set.)

My son is also quite literal and I am positive ASD is not a possibility. Like MidwestMom, our son follows the letter of the law but not necessarily the spirit. We have to detail exceptions, etc. He is precise with his language too.

I am thinking about this issue again because DD is occasionally struggling with reading comprehension worksheets. She had one the other day where the question was something like, "How would Jane's classmates have reacted if she decided to write a class newsletter that was accurate?" (Jane had written a newsletter full of lies.) The right answer was, "They would have thanked her." DD filled the right answer in, but was annoyed. "We don't know they would have thanked her. Who says? Just because she wrote things that were true?"

Is that an overly literal child or a child protesting a stupid worksheet? I should mention that she came to me in frustration and said, "I don't know this one," and I sent her back to look at it again.

I'd also mention that I don't see her struggling with short answer questions, but she gets hung up on multiple choice when the right answer seems "stupid" to her. "Least worst" is hard for her.

I love this. She's an independent, critical thinker who sees beyond (and beneath and around) the expected superficial response. And she's right...

Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified...

In the DSM-IV there are five disorders listed under "PDD": 1) Autism, 2) Asperger's 3) Rhett's 4) CDD (childhood disintegrative disorder, and 5) PDD-NOS. Basically if your child doesn't fit in one of the other four (Rhett's & CDD are very rare), then he/she could be diagnosed with PDD-NOS.

(I'm studying this in school - we've just finished our Autism unit )

My DS8 has been around the diagnostic roller coaster yet again, most recently to see one of our Provincial Autism specialists (psychiatrist who deals exclusively with ASD), who says that he is NOT on the spectrum. This I know, and have known, for years... he just doesn't have the necessary deficits with theory of mind or joint attention. He's... right beside the spectrum, but doesn't even meet the criteria for PDD-NOS (which is not really itemized in the DSM-IV... but whatever).


My DS8 still very literal sometimes. He's outgrown much of this, but he still has to have expressions like "hang in there" or "hold your horses" explained to him. He has enough social savvy that he doesn't respond to these expressions in an atypical way, but if you ask him if he knows what they mean, he'll say "no, not really." He has a language processing disorder, which is also likely contributing to it all.

I can't even count the number of times I have had this conversation with DS10! He feels exactly the same way about the Golden Rule, and nothing I ever say can dissuade him from thinking that's how it works.

My DD8 is also very literal and there is no ASD involvement. She also follows rules to the letter of the law. I am also a very literal person, my motto often times is: Say what you mean and mean what you say. So I understand where she is coming from although it can create misunderstandings/misperceptions about things. This is an area that we both struggle with knowing when and what to relax and laugh over. Working on projects with two literal people is not much fun! LOL

I am too, come to think of it. I get really annoyed at DH's vocab mishaps, and I pick apart things he says "THIS is what you said. If you meant THAT, you should have said THAT." (I think DS8 got his language processing disorder from his Dad... in an 8 year old it's tolerable, but in a 47 year old it's kind of frustrating). I'm not perfect either so I try to just let it go, but the literal side of me gets irritated.

I've never had a problem with idioms or expressions of speech though.

I'm not literal at all--I'm a born exaggerator/idiom-user. Poor DD.

Just for fun, I asked DD11 this question. Her response: "They probably would have been disappointed because I bet the newsletter full of lies was more interesting than the accurate one."

Ha! No kidding. It DID sound interesting, the way they described it!

It was a stupid question. The issue is, is DD simply resisting stupid questions because she recognizes and objects to their stupidity, or is she actually unable to correctly answer a stupid question because her brain can't make the "I guess the right answer is supposed to be X even though..." leap. (And if she knows the answer but feels emotionally really bothered by selecting it, is that because she is ASD-rigid, or because she is a perfectionist, or...)

Funny - we had a dispute over language like this with DD8's teacher. She sent email to parents on a Wednesday about a book report assignment, and said something like "it would be helpful if" kids could bring in their selected book by Friday. Then she gave a Late to everyone who didn't have a book yet on Friday. We couldn't even get a book shipped by Amazon Prime fast enough to have it at school on Friday! And guess what, we don't have lots of Newbery award books laying around that DD hasn't read yet, and the assignment said that it had to be a book they hadn't read before. And most Newbery winners are grossly inappropriate for third graders, in my estimation.