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Posted By: Goody Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 01:17 PM
Our daughter (age 7 - 2nd grade) fails tests on reading comprehension, when she is asked to read a book on her own. Her teacher has brought it to our attention and is baffled at our daughter's poor scores.

As background on our daughter:
-she loves to read and always has a book
-she is in an advanced program and gets straight A's
-she scored 152 IQ and 99.9 academic
-She is social, has good friends, and makes friends easily
-She likes to please and is never in any trouble

But....

-She makes 'sloppy' mistakes when taking tests (not paying enough attention to the question)

-She appears to need more guidance/support than average (again, if she is reading to someone and getting feedback, she is fine, but if she is on her own, she bombs)

-And, when faced with a new test/event (of any kind, be it school, play, et cetera), she is very reluctant/timid. She typically does very poorly the first time on everything. Then, once she 'gets the lay of the land', she gains confidence and blows the doors off.

So, are we dealing with insecurity? Or, are we dealing with lack of concentration? Or, something else?

And, what do we do to help her?
Posted By: Grinity Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 02:59 PM
Have you tried giving her tests of reading comprehension for books that are at a reading level similar to what she reads at home for pleasure?
Is her home pleasure reading higher than her school reading group level?
Has she been checked for dyspraxia? Is she physically well coordinate?
Does she have friends who are performing at her level academically? if so, are they from her age group or older?
Does she have siblings?
Does she get her special academic needs met at school?
Have your read Sylvia Rimm's 'Why Smart Kids get poor grades?'
Does she play independently with things or only read/TV/Computer/Adult attention?

You say that she is reluctant to try new things that she won't be instantly good at. Does she do it anyway, or use her other skills to wiggle out of that situation? hats off to her if she perseveres!

Love and More Love,
Grinity
Posted By: Goody Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 04:02 PM
Thank you for the comments, Grinity.

In answer...

She is being tested using Lexile (and a second test called SRI, I think)

If given the option, she will read below her reading level

She is athletic and coordinated. She has not been tested for dyspraxia

Her friends are all her age. Some are in her gifted class and performing at her level (and, in some cases, a bit higher) and some are not in gifted and are performing below her level

We adopted her from China when she was one. She does not have sibblings.

I am not sure how to answer if she is getting her special academic needs met at school. I think she is, but am not sure I fully understand the question.

I have not read 'Why Smart Kids get poor grades?' as this is a new development for us.

She has very little interest in TV. She won't even watch a Disney show with us (leaving us to watch the show while she goes to the computer to play educational games).

She stays close to us for most of her time. She will sit at her table and draw, write, color, read, et cetera, while my wife or I will work at the computer. She will play some with Barbie's (mostly combing their hair), but only does so with us in the room. Very seldom does she go off, by herself, and play.

As to trying new things, she is very competitive. This causes her to prefer to not try, rather than try and fail. So, we mostly have to nudge/push her at the beginning. But, last year, in a drama performance, she got stage fright and started crying. We thought that was the last time on stage. But, she signed up for a singing performance this year on her own and will be singing a solo. I would have never guessed that one.
Posted By: Goody Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 04:11 PM
Thank you, master of none,

She is missing key points and confusing key points.

We have her read small amounts - a page or a few pages - after we have read them; then have her tell us what the key points are. She typically confuses the story and gets it wrong. We then ask her to re-read it and try again. Then, after being told to re-read and re-think, and knowing she missed on her first try, she will usually get it right the second time.
Posted By: Grinity Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Grinity
Have your read Sylvia Rimm's 'Why Smart Kids get poor grades?'
It seems possible that your DD has learned that dependency has big payoffs - if so, above book may be helpful.

It must be mystifying when she can't outline the main points after reading a page or two.
Have you tried teaching her about graphical organizers to keep a cartoon of ideas while she reads? It may be that she can draw a time line, but can't get the words out. Since she likes to draw, what about asking her to make a drawing of what she is reading.

You might have luck with the book
http://mislabeledchild.com/
it sounds as though your DD isn't really good at picking out salient features of complicated scenes. Can you practice this outside of the reading context. Perhaps show her cartoons of a person almost ready to make a mistake and see if she can look at the scene and figure out the main point?

Perhaps take her into a room of a friend's house and ask her what inferences she can draw about the people who live in the house based on what she sees? Eventually you can ask her to rank which of the inferences is the most important, and explain her reasoning.

If you can do this politely enough - at resturants or parks you can practice people watching, and ask "If that family with the dog was in a movie, what would be happening in that movie?" and just practice noticing details, and making stuff up.

My son was really good at getting the 'big picture' but almost 'detail blind' around age 8. This seems to have shifted as he's grown. Does you DD catch the main point of the whole book? Do you read and discuss books together? Are you able to make 'inside jokes' using references to books you have both enjoyed?

I also wonder why she chooses pleasure reading below her school reading level...it could be so many things, but I would get her eyes checked by a developmental optomitirist to see if her eyes are tracking in a mature way. Has she had her hearing checked lately?

does any of this sound familiar?

It sounds like her school situation is very good.

Best Wishes,
Grinity
Posted By: DeHe Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Goody
Thank you, master of none,

She is missing key points and confusing key points.

We have her read small amounts - a page or a few pages - after we have read them; then have her tell us what the key points are. She typically confuses the story and gets it wrong. We then ask her to re-read it and try again. Then, after being told to re-read and re-think, and knowing she missed on her first try, she will usually get it right the second time.

is she possibly reading too fast? Lots of times gifted people/kids will read fast and skip words and your comprehension just fills them in, but if you skip too many your comprehension might fill it in wrong. The fact that she gets it right the second time suggests to me that she is being slower and more deliberate the 2nd time through. So what is she doing the first time? In addition to MonN's good suggestion of both reading it separately, you might also try having her read it aloud and having you read aloud separate sections and see where her comprehension is better. Also, what you describe as competitive, also could sound very perfectionist - she's going for easy in order to not get it wrong but its boring so she isn't paying enough attention to get it right. Alternatively, is it a lack of confidence or a desire for adult interaction. Hmm, what does your gut say?

DeHe
Posted By: JJsMom Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 05:25 PM
Also, does she have any eye tracking issues? Your description of your daughter is very similar as to how I would describe myself. I always liked to read as a child, but I was never good at comprehension.

My problem with reading comprehension is 1. an eye tracking issue, 2. I hate to read anything that *I* am not interested in, 3. I skip "boring" parts, 4. Anything with length either can't hold my attention (ADD) or is filled with too much "fluff". 5. I am not good with vocabulary, and I very often refused to look up meanings of words.

I have always preferred below level books because of what I think my ADD and perfectionism. I knew I could conquer them quickly.

You do not have to answer this if you do not want, as it may be too personal, but are you Chinese or Asian decent? If you are not, this may also be an issue for her, her self-esteem - even though I am sure she feels the love of her parents, kids are aware of their differences quite early in life. And while it may not have anything to do with her actual reading comprehension, it could help to explain her dependency and/or insecurities. I was a very insecure child, which easily played a roll in my choices/actions.
I've been reading up on teaching and lately I've been meditating on this, narration, dictation, and copywork as prescribed by the classical education homeschool method. �(I don't plan to homeschool, but I always intend to work with my kids on their education.)
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/foru...lotte+mason+copywork+dictation+narration
The second link is an online conversation from one instance between parents implementing the method outlined in the first link. �My reason for posting is to show you how some people are successfully separately teaching comprehension from written output.
http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258983&highlight=Narration

Originally Posted by Quote fron 2nd link
This is exactly why SWB, and other proponents of copywork and narration, suggest the parents write the narrations for their young kids. It divorces the mechanics of the process from the mental exercise of the process. If you read about SWB's philosophy, it's that for most young kids, trying to process the information, come up with something to say, AND pay attention to the mechanics of writing is too much.
http://simplycharlottemason.com/timesavers/narration/
Here's a creative list of narration project ideas.
Posted By: Giftodd Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/14/11 07:45 PM
I second what people have been saying about reading too fast. This may or may not ring true for you, but something that we have found with dd5 is that if she is reading to far below her reading level she she misses easy words and can't tell you what happened. If she reads something at or just below, she reads fluently and with good comprehension. It was causing issues at school because the teacher didn't think she could read as well as she can.

At first I was baffled by why this was happening and then I realised that she was probably no different to me - when I am reading a book to her that doesn't engage me I literally do not absorb a single word despite reading it more or less word for word (Rainbow Magic Fairies anyone? Fortunately she reads them to herself now, but I read a good 80+ of them before we got to that point. There's 40 hours of my life I wont get back!) I suspect my dd is the same, a little part of her brain skims over a book, does it's best to cobble together the words, while the rest is off doing other things. She has no idea what she's read and her brain hasn't had the same amount of practice putting words together, so when it's substituting words while she's not paying attention, it gets them wrong quite often. Give her a book she has to concentrate on and she's right as rain.

My dd is also a kid who likes attention for every moment of the day - has done literally since birth. She wont read by herself during the day, but she will read to herself at night after we have read to her - I think she's prepared to trade some attention for getting to stay up and be part of the world for a bit longer. No idea if that would work for your dd, just what has worked for us smile

I have not read all of the responses, yet. Forgive me if what I write echoes an other post.

We homeschool using a Charlotte Mason approach to education. One of the things that we have done is toss out the idea of "what a child is supposed to understand" from a story/show/play, etc. We use a technique called "narration". Narration takes the place of worksheet and comprehension tests/quizzes. In a nutshell the child reads and then tells us about what he/she has read. This isn't a recounting or summary of events, but the child's thoughts on what he/she has seen, read, heard. Sometimes a child might get very little out of what he/she has read, others there's so much it can't be contained. Still other times, my children will seem to not "get" the story only to come back at a later time having internalized it and made connections far beyond what they have read with other topics/items that I would not have, originally, considered.

The key to narration is to not pass judgement or steer the conversation. The idea is to find out what the child knows rather than always seeking what they *don't* know. It sounds easy, but in practice narration is more difficult than it seems. We use a variety of techniques for narration from having the child tell us verbally what he/she has read/heard/seen to writing a few sentences with or without having him/her draw a picture to accompany it, to creating dioramas, graphic novels, putting on a puppet show, acting out the story, etc.

At first, although my children are voracious readers (my daughter refused to read for a while, but a recent eye exam found she needed reading glasses - we are in reading high gear, again! HURRAY!) when we first started narrations there was much confusion and we had to s-l-o-o-o-o-o-w way down. To a page at a time for a few days and then it clicked! My children realized I wasn't looking for a specific answer. This *freed* them to discover connections on their own.

Narration is, also, a precursor to oral and written reports. It gets the child thinking of connections between different subjects. etc.

I realize this post doesn't answer your question exactly, but it might provide you with some useful ideas. I second what another poster wrote about your daughter, possibly getting something different out of a story than what the teacher expects. When we first started using narrations, that was the case in my house; I thought the my children should understand a story in a specific way. Once I let go of that notion, I realized that they understood the stories very well and made connections I would not have considered, otherwise.

Food for thought,

MM
Adding on to my last post:

If it makes a different we read multiple books at a time. My children, always, have at least three different chapter books going at one time, plus one or two shorter stories/comics. This is their "free" reading. For school we have eight to ten books going at once. Narration has helped them to make connections amongst their books. Connections that they have been able to apply in various scenarios.

Also, my DD (~7) will meet "The Bar" where ever it is set. At home she knows that I won't let her get away with acting like she is clueless. She is currently reading, the first book in "A Series of Unfortunate Events", Pipi Longstocking, The Wizard of Oz, Dr. Doo Little (all unabridged versions), plus an assortment of little fluff books here and there, for fun at home. When visiting with her grandparents, she can barely get through a "Biscuit" book. She reads slowly, painstakingly sounding out each words.

I am still trying to work my way around this. DD knows that she will get fawned over by the grandparents if she makes a big *show* about trying. I have mentioned it to them that she can read quite well, but they scoff, since she makes such a big production out of sounding out words in front of them. She does the same thing with other people, too. As soon, as she realizes that they expect little to nothing from her and that they are easily impressed, she adjusts her behavior accordingly.

Perhaps, your child is doing something similar.

My big concern with a child who does this, is that it may become habit: only giving the bare minimum. I am still trying to figure out ways to work around it without becoming pushy, banshee mom. I am willing to push. It just doesn get a bit tiring and frustrating, at times.

Mizzou
Originally Posted by Goody
-
-She makes 'sloppy' mistakes when taking tests (not paying enough attention to the question)

-She appears to need more guidance/support than average (again, if she is reading to someone and getting feedback, she is fine, but if she is on her own, she bombs)


This is my DD8.5, as well. She just got her report card to day and was in tears over her "B" in reading. One would think that a child who reads at a grade 6+ level would get an A in third grade reading, but not so for her. I tried my best to explain that the teacher can only tell how well she reads by listening to her read aloud and by how well she does on her comprehension exercises. Writing is a huge issue for her and her work is always sloppy and has a bare minimum of details. When reading, she doesn't even try words she does not know... she just sticks a random word in that starts with the same letter. Tonight, she read "Italy is the third most visited nation in Egypt" when I pointed out that the word was "Europe" she shrugged and ignored me. She didn't realize that word did not make sense and she didn't care in the least when it was brought to her attention. She had a general idea what the point of the sentence was, which was good enough for her. She practically needs someone to sit with her while she works through comprehension exercises. I used to wonder whether she was reading so fast that she was failing to understand well enough, but if she is asked the questions verbally she spews all the information easily. Again, writing is her Waterloo.... her hand just can't keep up with her brain and she can't make her letter look nice enough. She can't even get to the part where she worries about WHAT she is writing as the process itself is torture for her.

Originally Posted by JJsMom
Your description of your daughter is very similar as to how I would describe myself. I always liked to read as a child, but I was never good at comprehension.

My problem with reading comprehension is 1. an eye tracking issue, 2. I hate to read anything that *I* am not interested in, 3. I skip "boring" parts, 4. Anything with length either can't hold my attention (ADD) or is filled with too much "fluff". 5. I am not good with vocabulary, and I very often refused to look up meanings of words.


I think this describes my DD's problem perfectly. She also has ADD and speed reads at an amazing rate (72 pages of Little Women in less than 30 minutes yesterday. She has admitted to skimming over boring parts, as well. That being said, when questioned verbally about what she has read she has amazing recall and memory for minute details.

It is so difficult to tease out the cause when performance does not correlate with ability. Is it a concentration issue, a comprehension issue, a writing problem, performance anxiety, perfectionism or some funky kind of combination of any of them? These creatures need to come wtih manuals! I wish I could add words of wisdom, but as you probably gathered from the beginning of this post... we are in the same boat. Good luck!
I have no real expertise on how to deal with this issue in a gifted child. But Giftodd's post reminded me of a ex-boyfriend of mine who was a linguist. I would ask him to proof read an essay for me and when he had finished tearing through and fixing spelling and grammar I would ask "What did you think?". He would look at me, confused, and reply "Huh?". ME: "What did you think of the essay?" He: "Oh, I didn't READ it. I just fixed it. If you want me to read it you need to tell me first."

For him consuming content and processing the words & grammar were two totally separate interactions with a text. And words and grammar were WAY faster. He was no slouch at actually consuming the content either but the speed at which he "Fixed" was scary. And obviously he was interacting with the text in some sort of meaningful way in order to be able to make all the sentences grammatically perfect, modify paragraph structure, etc. And yet he would have literally zero recall of the content afterward unless he started with the intention of "Reading" it.

Same boyfriend was adamant that good spellers have a "visual check", which I have been meaning to go talk about in a different thread.

And I certainly know that I find myself randomly having NO recollection of what I just read to my child.
Also I clipped this from the amazon reviews of "the daily 5" "quiet 10" and " 6+1 traits of writing:"

These are just, I dunno, something in my notes I gotta think about later.
Copywork, narration, dictation,�


The daily 5:
The Daily Five is a series of literacy tasks (reading to self, reading with someone, writing, word work, and listening to reading).
The quiet 10:
"the Quiet 10"- which is 10 minutes where everyone... even the teacher!... is engaged in writing.�
6+1 traits of writing:
understand the qualities of good writing: ideas, organization, voice, word choice, sentence fluency, conventions, and presentation
The writing traits classroom is an exciting and busy place where students, teachers, parents, and administrators use a common vocabulary to support the seven key qualities that define strong writing: ideas (the meaning and development of the message), organization (the internal structure of the piece), voice (the way the writer brings the topic to life), word choice (the specific vocabulary the writer uses to convey meaning), sentence fluency (the way the words and phases flow throughout the text), conventions (the mechanical correctness of the piece), and presentation (the overall appearance of the work). This is no easy concept for fourth graders, but when I read the lesson `What Did You Learn About The Writer?', I knew it would be perfect for her class and co-taught it the very next day. Immediately, the students understood what was meant by the term `voice' and we saw major developments in their writing.

The top part copywork, narration, dictation is another thing. I read in TWTM a nice lady's post that c,n,d practice now leads to successful note taking during a college lecture. Anyway, here's my cliff's notes on what I've googled about that so far.

Posted By: Goody Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/15/11 01:00 PM
Thank you, Grinity. Sorry for the delay in reply. I wanted to share all the comments with my wife. We discussed last night.

My wife believes, among other things, our daughter is suffering from lack of practice. Last year, in 1st grade, we had a brief period where her reading comprehension was dropping off. The teacher jumped on it immediately with some practice tools and the problem went away.

This year, the class is more focused on math and my wife believes our daughter has simply gotten sloppy due to a combination of reading too fast, jumping to conclusions and lack of practice.

We have her eyes and ears checked regularly and no problems have been reported.

As to her choosing to read below her level, she shows maturity on many levels (such as interpersonal relations, being polite, considering feelings, et cetera), but she is less mature than her classmates on things like boys, music, activities. She is an only child, we are 50, and there are no children in the neighborhood for her to play with after school. So, other than school, play dates with friends, and weekend activities (gymnastics, swimming, Mandarin language class, Sunday School) she is around adults more than kids during her free time and her development has probably not been as complete as if she would be outside playing in the yard with kids her age.

We are going to follow your recommendation and practice inferences when we go places. That is a great idea. We are also going to follow your recommendation on graphical organizers, as that will probably help.

Posted By: Goody Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/15/11 01:10 PM
Thank you, DeHe

She is definitely reading too fast and skipping words. She read for me last night and missed the key points completely in the story, due to skipping words. She also jumps to a conclusion. She will read a bit, think she knows where the story is going, then fills in the blanks herself.

She does not appear to be doing this for adult attention. She is not pleased at all when she learns that she read something wrong. She is, to put it simply, stunned.

To your point about her being a perfectionist, yes, I would say that is correct.
Posted By: Goody Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/15/11 01:23 PM
JJ's Mom,

We do not think she has eye tracking issues, but will have her tested. As to the balance of your list of symptoms, they certainly sound familiar - she has a strong vocabulary; but I suspect she only reads what holds her attention. We tried her on the early Nancy Drew books (that were for her age group) and she had no interest.

To your question about us, we are not Asian. Blond hair and fair skin (Germanic/Norse tree). We have always spoke openly about her adoption/heritage, attend annual reunions of the adoption group we were part of (she is an email pen pal with 3 of the girls that were adopted when she was), attend the local Parents of Children from China events with similar looking families (non-Asian parents), have Chinese festivals, et cetera. But, in the end, we look different. Fortunately, her friends are a rainbow of colors and we remain in direct contact with the other parents to hear if any kid-talk turns ugly or painful. So far, we have detected nothing. But, I am sure there is much we do not see.
Posted By: aculady Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/15/11 01:28 PM
If she is skipping words when she reads, she could be having issues with visual tracking or convergence, which would not be caught in a standard vision screening. You may want to have her evaluated by a developmental optometrist or an OT who specializes in visual issues. Our son had had regular vision screenings as well, and was a voracious reader, but when his regular OT noticed him skipping words when he read aloud and referred him to a visual OT for evaluation, we found serious problems with tracking and convergence, as well as near-total left-sided visual neglect, all of which have since been successfully rehabilitated to near-average levels.

One of the interim strategies that we used with my son was to have him use a plain, opaque place marker (like the back of a bookmark or an unlined index card) that he could slide down the page as he read, keeping it just under the line he was reading, to help him avoid skipping back and forth from line to line while he was reading and to make the page less visually confusing. It might be something to try with your DD.
Posted By: DeHe Re: Poor Reading Comprehension (when alone) - 04/15/11 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by Goody
As to her choosing to read below her level, she shows maturity on many levels (such as interpersonal relations, being polite, considering feelings, et cetera), but she is less mature than her classmates on things like boys, music, activities. She is an only child, we are 50, and there are no children in the neighborhood for her to play with after school. So, other than school, play dates with friends, and weekend activities (gymnastics, swimming, Mandarin language class, Sunday School) she is around adults more than kids during her free time and her development has probably not been as complete as if she would be outside playing in the yard with kids her age.

Goody
Don't beat yourself up so much about opportunities with other kids. A lot of the things you reference, boys, music and activities are driven by shared pop culture. Our kids often aren't interested in that - so even if she was surrounded by other kids she might still be interested in whatever she is interested in. Sometimes it takes awhile to find the right reading niche - I find I am often switching around between fiction and nonfiction, finding the right level of where he is now, or where he is going. And I spend a lot of time reading the book threads on the site!

Plus its typical for the gifted to enjoy adults more than age mates. My DS 5 makes up these elaborate games to make their ordinary games more interesting to him - like tag - they are all playing tag - he is firing shark torpedoes and bringing evildoers back to his lair. Some other little boys make up his "team" and I am not even sure they know he is doing this or are actually playing with him!
My younger DD (also 7 and in 2nd grade) struggles with reading comprehension as well. She can understand and relate to books well beyond her grade level if she listens to them, but often can't answer even simple questions about the story if it's something she's read. DD has problems with tracking, tends to read too fast and miss words, and sometimes focuses more on the pattern the words make on the page than on the words themselves.

She enjoys crafts, so we made a bunch of bookmarks for her. Like aculady's DS, she puts them under the line of text she's currently reading. It slows her down and keeps her focused on that part of the page. I don't know if it would help your DD, but it might be worth a try.
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