We got our son a subscription for Dreambox Learning math in October. He quickly covered grade K-2, and is now (after about 6 months) finishing grade 3, while being half-way through grade 4 and well on his way in grade 5 and 6. All in all he has played Dreambox for 45 hours since October. In December, after he had covered grade K-2 and started grade 3 we got MathMammoth grade 1-3 to make sure that he also could do math "on paper" (and not only web based math). Now that he keeps speeding through Dreambox Learning I cannot help but to ask myself how accurate Dreambox's assessment is? We have not tested our son any way but I am stating to think that he may be gifted? He was an early reader (3�)and he has a reading age of about 9-10 yo (based on the books he is reading). As for math, my concern is that if the Dreambox assessment is accurate, he would be heading into grade 5 math by next term also "on paper" (Math Mammoth) by the age of 7. I am going to have to ask for support and make plans for the next term with the local school. I am asking here about your experience of Dreambox Learning. By now I would not be surprised if our son will finish all of Dreambox grade K-6 in this one year subscription. Except for that being great value for money it should not really be possible? I wounder if it is the program's "fault" or if our son really is that quick in learning math? Are there others who have had similar experiences? How did you continue after finishing Dreambox? What did the schools say as for the Dreambox' assessment? We do know that Dreambox does not cover everything bu it seems that MathMammoth is also easy for him (as he has learned most things in Dreambox before doing Math Mammoth). I am so sorry for the very long post but I just don't have the time to shorten it right now...

We've had a subscription since last summer and I really like Dreambox.I think it's a good tool for conceptual learning--it's good at the ideas, notsomuch at the procedures on paper, as it sounds like you've already figured out. So I have noticed that DD often has the higher-level concepts down quite well, and can even solve problems in her head, but she doesn't always know how to solve them on paper. So, on that level, I do feel like the assessments are a reasonable estimate of conceptual learning.

FWIW, DD (who recently turned 8) was zipping right along until she got to 3rd?? grade where the story changes and she stopped getting tokens for the carnival. She was not pleased about that. She's meandering through 4th right now; at school her 2nd grade teacher has finally let her start 3rd grade math, which she says is "too easy".

My DS, who is 4.5, also has an account and I really do feel like for him, the assessment is pretty accurate--he's about half way through Kindergarten math in Dreambox, which seems about right.

I'm curious to hear other's thoughts, too. DS5 zipped through K to half way through second grade during the free trial. He likes it, so I decided to try it for a month. DS did some Singapore Math in the past and was getting bored with it (and trying to teach himself multiplication to keep up with his older sister, which I was trying to stop until he was actually ready! Eeeek!). DS does seem to like math, and is a very advanced reader. Although I think DS is pretty good at math, I have also wondered whether Dreambox's assessments are accurate as to grade.

I do notice that concepts of time, money, and geometry seem to be missing from Dreambox. I also think we will need to go back and do some "paper math" soon and appreciate hearing what others have used. Still, I am rather amazed at what DS is learning to do in his head. He does feel a sense of accomplishment to see his progress on Dreambox and this fuels him to do more.

How old is your DS? I do think it is completely possible that he is gifted (your description of his reading ability would point to probably "yes!"), but I think I might look for additional data points (aside from just Dreambox) while you are trying to figure this out.

All the best to you and your DS!

I love Dreambox but I don't think it's enough to make the kids PROFICIENT in the various concepts. DS5.7 did a little bit of Dreambox when he was 4 ... did about half of the Kindergarten curriculum and then he lost interest. We started using it again regularly about a month ago when we put it on our iPad as part of our homeschooling routine. Ever day he has to earn 3 rewards (coins or items). He's close to being done with 1st grade and while I know he's capable of understanding the concepts, even 2nd grade concepts, I do think he needs more practice in many of them rather than keep moving up. So we use Dreambox as his math brain exercise but also do more basic math on the side just for the benefit of writing practice and to make sure he doesn't forget some of the problems he rushed through.

How does Dreambox compare to ixl?

My kids found Dreambox much more interesting than IXL. With IXL, the child is incented to answer all the questions in a grade level, even if some of them are way, way below level. Furthermore the questions are all drill.

With Dreambox, by contrast, there is an algorithm which suggests different exercises for the child based on their speed and accuracy in answering the questions. There is also much more variety in both how the problems are presented and the graphics involved. Up to about grade 3 math, it is a lot of fun.

That being said, my kids both got bored somewhere in grade 3 and 4 as the exercises got somewhat repetitive. It was good while it lasted, though.

DD8's school uses IXL and it appears more "drill oriented" from what I have seen. I have the overall impression that the school uses it as a reinforcement of what was learned in class. It does not appear to entertain the child in any way, but if your child enjoys feeling a sense of mastery they may enjoy this program. DD is assigned IXL as homework, so it has never been optional for her.

Dreambox has entertaining graphics and story lines that go along with the math - its format seems geared towards the younger set. They definitely try to instruct/explain concepts at times, rather than just asking the child questions. I do not think I would start Dreambox it with a child over age 8.

We haven't tried IXL, but we did Dreambox for a while with mixed results.

DD7 liked it at first, and the activities do teach number sense in an interesting way. The graphics and story lines were a big draw. She quit when 1) all of the games and story line movies she liked to spend her incentive tokens on were removed abruptly in January, and 2) she got bored and frustrated with being assessed on her mouse skills while using virtual manipulatives and clicking on the hundreds chart. She was approaching the end of 2nd grade and knew the material but couldn't make it through the activities.

The mouse skills wouldn't have been an issue if she could have used the iPad version, but her iPad is too old. Something to keep in mind.

Our son (6.8) had similar problems using the computer mouse so for a while I sat next to him and he would show me/point on the screen and I would use the computer mouse to move items for him. I did complain to Dreambox because this was the set of games that really relied most heavily on "computer-mouse-skills" and it is a game intended for relatively young students. Now, we don't have similar problems anymore but for younger students it is a benefit (I think) to use Dreambox on a touch screen (needs Flash though.
The games are still fun for our son but I do feel that we need to add "math on paper" and we are using MathMammoth grade 3-4 for that. He has so far flied through MathMammoth also as he has already practiced the concepts in Dreambox. We are now considering taking a break from Dreambox and instead trying EPGY over the summer as a way to revise what he has done so far. EPGY does not seem nearly as fun but we don't want our son to move too fast forward, it is more important that he has strong foundations before moving into grade 5-6.
We did also do a free web-based test last week using MathWhizz (a program which we considered before getting Dreambox) indicating that our son's math age is about 10 (end of grade 4) which is in line with his Dreambox progress. All in all we are more and more convinced that we need to prepare for grade 5-6 math starting next year when our son enters grade 2.

Our school also provides IXL, which is used for extra drill practice, which is really all it's good for. IXL doesn't teach new concepts, so if you're hoping for adaptive software that promotes individual learning, this program is not it.

DD3.75 started writing numbers all over the place including furniture so I finally gave in last week and got her started on Singapore Math K Book A. When she tried Dreambox 4 months ago, she placed around 2nd grade but I didn't think it was all that accurate since DD never appeared that advanced to us but now that we're going through SM which is supposed to be aligned with CC, I'm beginning to think that Dreambox is not that off. Looking at the SM content samples, we could have started her from 2nd grade but we're going through all workbooks starting from K and date stamping every single page for documentation, just in case we need evidence for advocacy later.

Mana, I would recommend letting your dd take the assessment for Singapore math and starting at the right level, even if it is 2a. You don't want to bore an enthusiastic kid with problems that are too easy. I used the assessment and should have really gotten the 3a but second guessed and got 2a and 2b. Dd finds that boring and I am skipping all exercises to just do the reviews. Like you, I also date stamp the worksheets.

Lovemydd, when I'm ready to let DD actually get started on a math curriculum, I'll print out the assessments. Thank you for reminding me. I had forgotten about the placement tests.

When she'd be done with both SM K A & B which should be in about 10 days if she stops playing with the date stamp and stops complaining about how it's too easy and more about cutting and pasting than math, we'll (finally) move onto Montessori math materials. Her father doesn't see the point in manipulatives as DD understands abstract representation but I insisted that she still needs to be in the 3D world as much as possible. We'll save mental math/memory work for later. I thought she'd stop writing numbers all over the place once I got her the workbooks but she's still writing and says she wants to see numbers everywhere. She's just weird.

She's getting enough structured learning and challenges from music lesson and note reading (fraction) so for now, math can be all fun and play.

Mana, if your DD is like mine,
a) she would not finish the SM K series and if you insist that she does, she will whine about how you are torturing her by giving her easy stuff
b) would resist any instruction from you on the proper use of the Montessori math manipulative but will spend considerable amount (by which I mean 2 weeks) using them in her own way.
c) At the end of that 2 week period, she will no longer go back to the manipulative but would have learnt a lot such that she can easily do mental math. And in fact, it will be easier for her to work with the abstract representations than the manipulatives.
d) she will continue to use the walls and furniture for her graffiti work into the foreseeable future no matter how much you threaten her to stop.

That's so funny Lovemydd. My DD took one look at page 49 and its corresponding cutouts today and said "No, Mommy. This is completely POINTLESS." I wanted to giggle but I told her that I agree that that page had nothing to do with math and as she already cuts and pastes well enough, she didn't have to do it.

I'm getting her a set of golden beads for her birthday along with a few other things and they'd most likely end up as theatrical properties for her pixie dust shop, bakery, and book store. I got her these a while ago and they have become her favorite open-ended toys along with blue plastic place value blocks:

http://www.amazon.com/Playme-PM0801-Playful-Math/dp/B003U6L8HU s

Sometimes, she uses them as money, other times she uses them as pixie dust ingredients or as cookies and cakes.

It's little weird that she is very much a 3 year old girl and a budding mathematician at the same time. I'm slowly getting used to it.

I have to give a shout out to Dreambox. I am stunned. DS6, who seems to like math, has been working recently at 3rd-4th grade level on Dreambox (he started on K in the spring). Outside of school (standard very easy kindergarten curriculum last year), Dreambox has been our primary enrichment, and DS really enjoys it.

He just took the WIAT and scored a 160 on Math!

Something is clicking for DS with Dreambox!

Another shoutout for Dreambox here - my older two love it. We started off slowly with it as they came home for schooling. Now they are both flying with it. I do not interefere unless they ask for help; which means they really do get to work through stuff that they may already know conceptually, but I don't see it as totally bad. When they read the instructions properly or set aside the impatience to listen and watch the teaching points, they do really well at the pre tests.

The later grades (3 and up) cover time, money and geometry concepts.

Having said that, I suspect both older boys will finish with Dreambox this year still - but I will still use it for Dylan, who is right now obsessed with times attack. So he will probably start dreambox later this year.

My son just started Dreambox trial today. He did 17 minutes and I think he likes the format. I don't see any instruction though. But maybe that's because he just started and is doing the easy stuff?

If your son doesn't understand something and gets a question wrong, dreambox will show him an example to show them how to solve it. There is also a help button that they can press.

I think there has only been a couple of times my daughter really didn't understand something on dreambox and I had to show her. I did not show her on dreambox because the program adapts to your child's understanding (i.e. if you do the problem for them on DB it will think the child understands and move them on ahead). So I explained the concept to her off the computer, then let her solve the problems on dreambox on her own.

Ah yes. Today when he got something wrong I saw it do an explanation. Pretty cool! He enjoys it.

this is what we do as well

May I ask is it a kid must learn how to read by themselves before they can use Dreambox? What age will you recommend to start?
Thanks.

No, I don't think a child needs to know how to read (although, to be fair, DS could read when he started using it). I just asked DS (because I don't recall seeing much reading on it) and he said it will read to you.

I think it depends on your DC - I saw your other thread (and you DS DOES sound very advanced!) and if your DS enjoys it, I would let him play. My DS LIKES math, so he enjoys Dreambox. Why not do a free trial (no, Dreambox, doesn't pay me - LOL!)?

I think as soon as a kid can use a computer mouse or navigate a screen. I think it starts at preschool or kindergarten level? However, some of the games can be confusing for a child in terms of figuring out what is being asked of them.

My kids have been doing it this summer and I think they have learned a lot, however, there have also been annoying things about it. I've had to send messages twice already about "bugs"...with the latest one a problem got "stuck" right in the middle and would not allow the child to finish typing their answer. Logging out and logging back in doesn't help, the same thing happens. Also, lessons can be strangely out of order and not progress in a logical way. For instance it is having DS do equivalent fractions, which has been dragging on FOREVER (he could have mastered this concept after about 3 lessons and it's having him do about 15 of the same thing and he's sick of it). Meanwhile, a new lesson popped up involving multiplying decimals. They never taught him the BASICS about decimals and now he is supposed to multiply them, like 82.7 X .4? So he's learning that 1/2 equals 2/4 st the same time he's being asked to figure out what is 82.7x.4? That doesn't make sense to me. He flunked the pretest for multiplying decimals, but it didn't put him at an easier level to explain decimals. So now I have to sit down with him and explain the basics of multiplying decimals so he can do this level on Dreambox. I don't just want to teach the computations, I want him to truly understand the concept. DD hit a level on there that involved long division with decimals and it is teaching it in a truly bizarre way, where the decimals stay in the same places all the way through the problem and you actually do division, subtraction etc. considering the decimals. I said "This is dumb" and went through and had her do all the problems on paper the normal way, typing the answers myself the way they wanted her to. The "normal" way being that you just multiply the decimals out by moving them to the right, adding zeros at the end, etc.

I wish there was a truly awesome program to teach math, but I'm still looking. As long as the kids are willing to do Dreambox I'll keep paying for it but it has become more frustrating as of late.

blackcat- I don't homeschool, but we do some math enrichment during the summer and a bit after school.

I use different strategies depending on what we're learning. When there is a new concept, I teach it myself. Typically, I begin an early conversation (for instance while DS7 was working on fractions, we started a decimal and percent conversation), then we work in one or two simple pen and paper problems. Once I'm confident that DS understands the concept, I move to a Kumon/Ixl practice drills.

This summer, I've used a combo of Beast Academy and Singapore math for word problems and difficult analysis. I find interesting/challenging analysis problems that don't require tons of calculation skills and see if DS can solve them.

It doesn't sound like much of a math strategy does it:) My feeling (at least with DS7) is that elementary school math is not difficult- learn the operations and how/why they're used, then spend the remaining time solving harder analysis/word problems that require more brain power and often less calculation skill.

My "non-strategy" is my opinion that DS benefits from the practice of Kumon-like drills- but also higher level analysis skills. Many set curriculums seem strong on one and weak on the other. My dominating priority is numeracy- I ask DS *a lot* does this answer make sense? (e.g. for finding common denominators, is 6/12 and 1/2 the same thing?).

What exactly is Beast Academy and where do you get it? I thought it was a book? We do have some Singapore Math workbooks I should get out and see if they explain how to multiply decimals.

I've never used BA, although I understand it is a series of workbooks, but I have used SM, and liked the explanation of multiplying decimals--decimals, in general, actually, as it makes it explicitly clear that decimals are just a special case of fractions.

Hi blackcat- Beast Academy is the elementary school version of the Art of Problem Solving curriculum. I ordered a set of guides and workbooks from Amazon. I started with 3A. Although the concepts so far are familiar to DS7, but the problems are challenging. I discovered through BA that while DS is a strong calculator, he has more difficulty with geometric concepts/shapes.

We did a Singapore math word problem book this summer for (I think around the 4th grade). DS got about 80% correct without instruction. I thought some of the word problems were difficult.

If DS and I had personalities amenable to homeschooling. I would probably do a more structured version of what I do now--

1. Teach elementary math operations myself- with some online (Khan Academy perhaps) help
2. Give DS practice time on ixl and pen/paper
3. Use Singapore and BA as my baseline for harder analysis and applied problems

The only difference I would make is to incorporate more word problems on the specific topic area that we're studying (i.e. fraction word problems if we're studying fractions).

I can tell you that what we're doing is working (or DS is a math wizard, probably both). 178 in broad math on the WJ achievement with applied math as the highest score.

Thank you. I looked at Amazon but they were super expensive. I would want to at least try it before spending that much money. Wish the library had it. I think for the time being I'll supplement more with Khan Academy (where at least I can go in a logical order and the concepts are explained verbally!) and also take pieces out of Singapore Math. Unfortunately I have 3rd and 5th grade but not 4th and it's probably 4th I need at this point.

http://www.beastacademy.com/store/

How have the rest of you taught your young mathematicians to WRITE THINGS DOWN? DS wants to do everything in his head (and is pretty darn good at it), but then he'll make silly errors that he wouldn't have made if he wasn't trying to play "human calculator"?

So if you have a young kiddo, who ENJOYS math - what's the best way to branch out into more "paper math"? We briefly did SM (before DB), but it was slow going (I probably started at the wrong level, and I didn't feel confident enough to just SKIP chunks, because it is DIFFERENT than how I learned math) and I stopped so as to not kill DS's enthusiasm for learning. Dreambox got us moving again. But he needs to learn to write things down!

Would BA make more sense for a mom enriching at home who grew up with "old school" math? If so, how do you figure out what level/where to start? Or would you suggest supplementing with another program?

I am LOVING hearing what others have tried/what has worked - THANKS!

I have a couple of those, too. I didn't really stress making them show work until algebra, as long as the answers were right, but I did model for them, and also explain the value of communicating your thinking to other mathematicians. Math is a language, and it's good to be able to learn to read and write, as well as speak it. We've also talked about 1) the massive inconvenience of having to re-work an entire multi-step problem in order to find and correct an error, vs being able to check steps that you have already written down, and 2) real-life consequences that ensue from minor calculation errors that could have been prevented by the engineer/scientist/architect/etc. writing down calculations so that errors could more easily be caught. And, incidentally, that some day they may want the partial credit that classroom teachers will award only if they can see your work. One of mine has an interest in teaching, so there is special value in emphasizing the power of mathematical communication.

Some children find their hands to be too slow and awkward to keep up with their thought process, which is why my #2 prefers not to write things down, if it can possibly be avoided. When we did SM primary, I scribed almost everything, down to "four, carry the two", to separate fine motor development from mathematical development.

blackcat- I would describe Beast Academy as "nice to have" but it's not for everyone. In fact, some parents of gifted kids say that they don't like it at all. I always plug Singapore math only because it hits the sweet spot for my particular DS.
My thing with math (as a former math student with some serious math anxiety) is that both the hard skills and analysis should be present in elementary school math. I developed math anxiety from what I realize now was a "logic leap" into middle school algebra. If a program has both the calculation and applied problems *and* is challenging (the applied problems actually require some thinking) then it's probably a good curriculum. For me, that's Singapore math supplemented by ixl/Kumon.

The only way that I have ever found to get my DD to write more things down is to have her work on a tablet device, or to use dry-erase markers on a HUGE surface like a sliding glass door or large picture window.

That seems to have been very satisfying-- though I must say that my DH was often unimpressed that math was all over our living room picture window while I allowed dd to stand on the sofa to reach higher. LOL!

Our method was much like aeh's-- I modeled and scribed, and did "I'll do a step, then you" with her. It just depends on the kid, I think, but for DD, the social component was the reward for doing things this way.

Ha! I am definitely going to let ds write on the picture window with my dry erase markers! And yes,he will also be standing onthe couch. Fun!

That's a much better price! I'll maybe buy one book and see if he likes it.

Loy, we have the SAME problem with DS. When he did the WJ math section he refused to write ANYTHING down except for the fluency section where he had to write his answer. He would rather do long division in his head than write down the problem. And of course this leads to silly errors. Kids this age don't have good enough working memories to do multi-step problems in their head and not make mistakes.
DS's last teacher basically MADE him write things down. If he did it without being reminded, she gave him a WOW and starbursts. He has problems lining numbers up, so she gave him graph paper with large squares, and sent it home with his homework as well. The funny thing is, is that Dreambox seems to actually encourage them to do it in their heads. DS did units on "addition and subtraction strategies" which actually discouraged the use of the "regular algorithm." Since he is dyspraxic, that makes everything worse in terms of writing. It's really hard for him physically.

I wanted to re-visit this as my son has gotten further along in Dreambox and I'm starting to wonder exactly how much I should be adding to it. (We homeschool.)

He's just about "finished first grade" according to the parent dashboard. A lot of it, I can see that he gets the concept, but could probably use more practice. These areas are getting marked off as "100% completed". With each game, the number has only gone up to maybe 6. (where each number is a little harder) He's rarely had to repeat a section. Do you think that kids who don't "get" it repeat each level more? Do their numbers go up higher than 6, showing they've done a lot more repetition?

For example, when it comes to using the math racks and making equal equations where you show that 7+8=10+5, my son was able to do it, but I'm not sure that he was full grasping that you're manipulating the math racks (adding 3 to the top bar and simultaneously taking 3 off the bottom one to get 10 and 5). Instead, he was adding 7+8, then building 15. Does that make sense? His method works in the cases where he'd memorized the math facts, but not when he didn't already know the answer. It's clear that he needs more practice doing that, but it's now marked as "completed".

A lot of math is putting stakes in the ground. Since DreamBox is an adaptive learning system, the reasonable expectation is that a key piece missed will be detected down the line. If a student errors on a few problems that are rooted in this math racks concept, then the program should roll back into a remediation mode on that topic. I'm not specifically familiar with DreamBox, but know a bit about the design of adaptive learning systems.

One of my frustrations with it was that if they pass a unit, it might (or might not) stay there for further practice, but after a few days it is gone for good and you can't go back. I don't know why they can't have a list of topics completed and you can click on it to do it again later. But they don't, as far as I can tell. Which reminds me, I think that I'm going to cancel our subscription and maybe pick it up again next summer. It seems like it's good for the lower grades (maybe up through 5th or 6th grade material)...after that it kind of fizzles, I think, getting more bizarre in terms of how the concepts are taught. For certain topics, you really need more than pictures in order to understand. It might be good for reviewing concepts, but then the lessons drag on forever--much longer than what would be needed.

I agree that it is probably better for the younger set/lower grades (I thought DD was too old for it last year at age 8), but it was a nice start for DS at age 5. We also use it as summer/after-school enrichment, though. Right now, DS still likes it and has been pretty busy with the start of school (and has less time for extra-curricular math). I am thinking we might not need it anymore by the time we are up for renewal and we might try Beast Academy or something different. DD9 has a subscription to EPGY right now (and we'll have access to algebra for a bit longer, which is no longer included under the new plans), but I am not sure about the changes they have been making lately...we might be ready to move onto something different when our subscriptions are up.

Yes, I had this experience, too. My DS would figure out how to complete the level, without understanding the principle being taught. It worked out, though. Weeks later, it would become clear that he had mentally pieced it all together. It has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum: sometimes moving up to a harder principle will help the details of the easier principle come into focus.

Also, Zen Scanner is right, the game spirals back on concepts as needed. And things pop up just for review, too.

Thanks for the glimpse of the future of Dreambox. I'm glad to hear that it will cycle around if it later becomes apparent that he doesn't know something essential. Someone before had mentioned it being "mastery" rather than "spiral" so I was a little worried. I'm also kind of using it for the parental dashboard because it helps my husband to have some data about "where he is" in relation to other kids.