This is kind of a silly question, but I'm just wondering...

When your child was small, did you notice anything different about the other kids?

Ever since DD was little DH and I can't help but notice and remark (to one another afterward, of course) that the other kids DD's age seem to be almost... sleepy? Like they have a glazed over look in their eyes. DH said today that the kids at our storytime group (all DD's age - 14-20ish months and walking) looked slow, including a much older child.

This is a terrible thing to even think and I don't really think those children were slow, but I'm wondering if that ever happened to any of you.

I told DH... you know, maybe the other parents look at our daughter and think she has a dazed look on her face, too. We just think she is alert and there because we are used to her. Maybe no one else notices DD's alertness and thinks their child is the most aware one there...

Thoughts?

I don't know if I paid much attention to the level of alertness of other babies or toddlers when dds were young, but I do know that other people did notice at least dd13's unusual alertness when she was a baby so I suspect that it isn't just that all parents think that their babies are more alert than typical. I had people commenting regularly to me when dd13 was very little about how alert she was.

The other thing that sticks in my mind was from when she was about 6 months old. I was a single mom at the time and in grad school and exhausted by the fact that dd never slept and cried so much. I finally gave in to trying the "cry it out approach," which was a terrible failure with dd b/c she screamed all night for 2-3 days straight at which point I gave up.

I recall at the end of this awful attempt taking her to somewhere like Target. She was in her baby carrier in the shopping cart and the lady in line behind me made a comment about what a cute little sleepy looking baby she was. I had never had anyone describe her as looking sleepy in her life. Her eyes were always wide open and she was clearly paying attention to everything around her. The comment, honestly, made me worry b/c that wasn't my baby. I leaned in to kiss her and dd turned her face away from me with a look that totally looked like she was snubbing me. That was the end of my attempts to get her to "self soothe."

When DD was in a dance class or gymnastics at age 3, the other kids looked ADHD by comparison. She was in the place she needed to be, paying attention, asking questions, etc., and in between the teachers were herding cats with the rest.

Awww! DH and I have already agreed "cry it out" would never ever work with our kid, either. She'll cry it out until she either passes out (while hyperventilating and from sheer exhaustion) or you come get her... I know from our carseat experiences.

Our in-laws called DD "the owl" as a newborn and it was a very accurate nickname. We got comments about her being alert, a lot, too. Lots of people asked how old she was and usually guessed about double whatever her age was. So maybe we aren't imagining things... but I don't know. Now that we are out of the sleepy baby stage, I don't get why the toddlers still appear sleepy to us. Which is why I'm wondering if we are just biased.

This was our experience with ds12, and we had other people commenting on it.

I had to laugh along with Cricket's Target moment - our ds never slept. Ever. Or at least it seemed like he never slept!

polarbear

So most kids go from sleepy and slow moving to something else entirely? I fully expected other toddlers to be running around and looking like they were thinking about something, but at under 2 years they aren't. We are going to check out the story time that goes up to age 3 next time since DD was following the older girl around trying to get her to interact with her.

At my daughter's first birthday, a friend (without kids of his own) remarked that she had a look about her like he could teach her something. He's no closer to me than to many of the other parents at the party, so I don't think he was being biased.

Another friend used the term "expressive" to describe her many faces when she was just a few months old.

When kids in that age range have visited, I've often wondered when they were going to stop putting everything in their mouths. Both of my kids started bringing their discoveries to an adult at an early age, rather than putting them in their mouths.

As for the self-soothing...

We decided to let DD do the cry-it-out method at around 4-5 months, in an attempt to help her sleep through the night. It was right about the time where she would cry in the night, we'd come to her, and find that what she wanted was to play, so we were trying to teach her that bedtime was for sleeping.

DD would scream, someone would come in, check to see that she's not injured/hungry/cold/wet/etc in a very no-nonsense way, then give her a kiss and say good night again. She'd continue screaming, and eventually we'd pop in for the same drill... nothing wrong, okay, good night then. And if there was an issue, then again we'd address the issue in a very no-nonsense way... no playing or chatting, just resolve the situation and put her back to bed. The message was twofold: we hear you, and we'll take care of you, but now is not the time to play.

This made for a couple of weeks' worth of VERY long nights, but the peace it won for us afterwards was worth every minute and more. It transformed the entire household. Everyone was better rested, felt more positive, and enjoyed each other more.

Not to sidetrack too much, but FWIW my dd wasn't wanting to play in the middle of the night. She was crying inconsolably. Even when we co-slept, which we did until she was 18-22 months, she woke up every 30 mins crying. I spent much of her first two years nursing her, carrying her around at night trying to get her to stop screaming in my ear, etc.

Letting her cry alone in a crib led to the same kind of crying coupled with panic literally from the time I put her in the crib until the sun came up. Going in to check on her did nothing to calm her down. She just got more hysterical that I wasn't holding and comforting her.

I was exhausted for much of her baby and toddler-hood but, in hindsight, I don't regret it at all. I think that she had very high attachment needs and am glad that I was able to be there for her. We have a very strong relationship now.

DS was very alert as a baby. At 7 months we travelled to Italyand he would be beside himself with excitement every time he saw a clock (every 2nd street) among other things. Clock was his second word after mum the next month. We often commented how other babies looked more like, well babies. DS didn't seem to a baby for very long! He didn't put anything in his mouth either, except for food.
Now in a gymnastics class with most children 1-2 years older he is the only one who listens and does exactly what is demonstrated.

It seemed like we held dd16 for the first 9 months of her life. If her feet hit the ground, she cried. Carrying this baby around constantly was no easy feat as she was a big baby.

My husband is a tall man and both kids were beasts Dd rarely napped and never slept through the night until she was 18 months old. Strangers did remark on how alert she was. I felt like I was in a fog half the time.

My son was alert and focused from the get go- kind of intensely examining everything/everyone, and YES, we'd see normally developing babies of the same age and both DH and I would comment later on how 'zoned out, sleepy, or unobservant' the kids were. It just seemed like you could WATCH the synapses firing with our little spit fire, and the other kids were just so...still, relaxed looking.

In response to the cry it out posts- we didn't even go there. I've got a spirited intense extroverted child. That would have been a nightmare. We used the gentler, more gradual approach of the 'BabyWhisperer' Tracy Hogg. It really worked well for us and our child as he was/is persistant and tenacious.

the first 12 mos were a fog for me too. My baby was just different in temperament, his ability to communicate wants and needs early and with vigor, and his motor skills- on his feet early. And people wonder why he is our singlet! LOL

I'm still waiting for the mouthing to stop. She is doing it much less frequently than before, but still doing it. It might be because she only had 4 teeth until she was 12 months and just now has 7 and 8 coming in on the bottom?

She can draw a straight line with a crayon, but then follows up by trying to chew on it. Maybe the edible crayons I bought her (made with natural stuff) smell too good!

I had to laugh about the no sleep. DS2 is happy and active, so apparently he's getting enough sleep, but DH and I are definitely not (I hoping for more zzzz after he finishes getting his molars).

When I'm around other toddlers at playgroup or in the park, I find myself explaining things to them like I do to my son, but I get a lot of blank stares back. I can almost see their eyes glaze over from Too Much Detail. I think I even scared one little guy. DS2 doesn't understand why they won't play with him, but when we're around slightly older kids (3-4) he gets really shy.

Yes! Absolutely!
I know exactly what you are talking about.

From the moment he was born, he was alert, and all the other babies had these glazed looks. It was very noticeable (and not just to us, people would comment on it).

At preschool, I notice it too, but it's more subtle now. It just seems like DS is more alive, more alert, more intense. It's like an adult plopped inside a 3yo body. I don't know how else to describe it.

That said, at classes, DS is usually not the one listening or following directions. I think the pacing is too slow for his mind. He often tries to speed it up by following his own agenda, or he amuses himself in his head. I think the constant waiting is just too much for him. That little brain never stops.

An example. He is the kid who isn't keeping up in swim class. He is too busy trying to figure out swimming on his own (and half drowning). I really think it's a pacing problem. Giving him bits and pieces at a time is exhausting, when he just wants a major brain dump all at once. lol.

Lastly, he rarely napped his first year of life. It was exhausting. I think he didn't want to miss anything, you know?

The pediatrician we have for our children is about 60 years old and is nearing retirement. He has seen literally thousands of kids grow up.

When DS was a few weeks old and we took him in for a routine checkup, our pediatrician told us that "We won't need to save any money for college. He is extraordinarily bright." He said that based upon his opinion that our son was unusually alert. We didn't take it seriously at the time.

Later, when DS was 2 years old and we were concerned he wasn't speaking, our pediatrician told us that he had no worries whatsoever, and that when DS finally "decided" to speak, it would be in full sentences. A few months later, DS did start speaking, in full sentences as predicted.

And he still has the same unusual level of alertness, and we still get comments about it from random people.

A lot of toddlers and infants out there do look to me like someone has dosed them with sedatives. We called them blanket babies, the ones that would happily just sit wherever they were put.

The other thing I notice about other toddlers is all the stuff they say that is just wrong. Not pretending/fantasy, but just wrong, just draw wildly off conclusions. From when he could talk, if DS didn't know something he said he didn't know. I guess maybe there's a lot of kids that just like to say things for the sake of being verbal, rather than due to an interest in the content. Speaking of which, DS never did that baby jargon thing where the baby sounds like it's talking but is just complex babbling, he waited until he could talk. Probably not related.

I know one family who's kids are all like zombies for the first 18 months and then it's as if someone turns a dial and they start getting more and more active both physically and mentally. They are not PG, but not average either, they seem pretty bright. Their mom gets all wistful missing the infant stage. (Not me, DS started out at the same tempo he goes now, he got exponentially easier with walking and talking). In toddlerhood I think each of this family's kids must be horribly delayed and then a year or two later there they are saying very reasonable things. Maybe developmental trajectories really vary that much and can still be entirely normal?

A PG brother of mine, very alert in the delivery room but truly a boring looking blanket baby: he's low on motivation as an adult (he would likely term it being "energy efficient", LOL), but the brightest person I know. An exception. Or is there no rule?

As an aside, DS4 is really oral still, but so is his dad, who could walk around for an hour with a toothbrush just chewing on it. A sensory thing I guess, they both love raw carrots.

Polly

Polly, do you mean a blanket baby is easygoing? My first was completely easygoing as a baby (and I am told I was too). She probably would have fit your definition, though I'm not sure about looking sleepy, but in general she was content to observe and be still often. Didn't attempt to crawl until 10 months but nonetheless walked by 13ish months.

She still is a really easy kid at 2.5, because she's incredibly verbal, and has been since starting to talk. I can just explain to her what we're doing or when something is going on to scare or upset her, comfort with her with very few exceptions. Like someone mentioned, I pretty much talk to her in simplified adult terms and when I have tried doing this with others her age or even older, I get blank looks back at me.

My younger DD (now 10m) has always been called alert, and is much more intense in general, particularly when upset. I was frequently told she was very alert as a baby etc, and she required constant entertainment from the get go. We have had predictive type comments from people who know her about how smart they think she is or will be. Time will tell but I'm sort of afraid, to be honest, to find out if they're very right (or likewise very wrong).

I'm not sure there is a rule in this.

Hmm I have more than once complained to my DH that all the other parents who have toddlers with them at pick up/drop off time at school might as well have handbags for all the interaction they have with them. Other kids seem to just sit in a pram / on an arm / at mum's feet and be still and quiet. I have a mini tornado, who turns into a screaming, writhing octopus if she is unable to explore. She's my third like this, but somehow it does seem more intense this time around... Other peoples kids look different to me, evidently she looks different to them too as I am getting increasing questions about her age that are off but A LOT (ie "Nearly 3.5?" "No, not yet 2").

I don't know quite how I percieve other kids. I find I can often draw them out quite a bit, in just a few minutes, and they stop being blobs. But then, when I start to do something with DS that I've been doing for years, other people laugh at me, and tell me I'm over explaining. I know DS would melt down if I didn't, but they don't... I guess.

DS tends to just be quiet around others. Partly its because his articulation is not up to communicating his vocabulary to stran...well, ok, it's best if DH and I and one other familliar person are all listening together

He has a particular look for when people start explaining things he already knows to him. It seems to include mostly contempt, and a bit of embarrasment. But others read it as "not getting it," and tend to move on quick. I remember a woman trying to "teach" him to put a ball in the ball run at the science center when he was about 18 mos and had <10 english words. He gave her the look, gigged when she did the big "oh, wow" thing, waited for her to leave, and then... moved over to where she'd been standing so he could reach the other four balls he'd been trying to put through all at once so they would trip the second pathway. I remember really, really, clearly because I felt AUFUL that that woman had thought my wonderful child was a lump-baby who wasn't getting enough attention because I was over sitting on a chair (gulping down a coffee so I could keep up with him). I WANTED people to see him the way I did.

I think I've kinda gotten over that now, it happens just SOOO often. I'm kinda thankful now, becasue we get a lot less of the "wow, he's smart" than we used to. I wish he'd try harder to talk to more people, and I worry about it to the point of nightmares at that time of the month, but I worry less than I worried about the complex he was getting from the comments.

Anyway, I wonder how many of the lump-babies/kids I see are really just not trusting me to listen to *them.* And I wonder how many of them are just years down the under-stimulation path. Meh. I do think DS is smarter than your average bear, but I really have no clue about what is average. I'm not sure one ever gets to really SEE another person's kid.

-Mich.

I've just noticed that other children seem to sleep. In public even! Our son was born at 10:30pm and I recall the nurse telling us that we'd get a good night's sleep, since all baby's sleep for a long time after they're born. Well, I believe he was awake the entire first night, sucking desperately on our fingers and anything else he could find. The next morning, one of the nurses said, "Uh, we don't usually recommend this, but you might want to get that kid a soother." Our son wasn't as bad as Cricket2's daughter (wow. that must have been so hard for you!) but it was rough nonetheless. Like Agent99, we weren't able to put him down for many months until we found 'the miracle swing'. This was the only thing we could get him to nap in (until it broke after a year). For the first 6 months of his life, he would only sleep in my arms at night and woke to nurse every 1-3 hours. I didn't get more than 3 hours of consecutive sleep during these first six months, which was difficult as I was trying work at the same time. Naps disappeared altogether shortly after the age of two and at age three, he still doesn't sleep through the night consistently. It's been a struggle. So, we're always amazed when other children nap, sleep or pass out in public! Our son just seems to have trouble shutting off his brain and certainly doesn't want to miss anything.

Ha! DS2.75yrs would *only* sleep in public from about 18 mos. I think he, like me, needed enough stimulation to *keep him from thinking*. I usually fall asleep with the radio on, or else I get so bored I start thinking BIG THOUGHTS and can't sleep & have nightmares when i finally crash

DS2.75mos will sleep anywhere, but he's a ludicrously easy baby.

-Mich

This is definitely true with DS2, he's so different away from home, and he does not trust other adults. Whenever anyone starts talking down to him, he'll give them "that look" and run away.



Aha! So there is a chance of an easy baby... I'm going to need scientific proof to convince my husband that a second baby will be easier, or else there never will be a #2. I figure adopting a toddler is my only hope for having more than one.

LOL.

Mr W was SOOO hard that DW and I were very nervous about the Womb Raider. She is as easy as pie. OTOH she has a huge temper and is very nosy. But way less intense than her brother. AND SHE SLEEPS THROUGH THE NIGHT!!!!

SO, there is hope.

I think the thing I noticed most about other kids (and, I confess, sometimes envied) is that they just seemed so much more content with less - and I don't mean stuff. Less questions before they were satisfied with the answer given. Less negotiating over the terms of the deal, whatever it was they were asking for permission to do. Less making up new rules to games to make them harder. Less "pushing" to do something.

My kids, as much as I cherished them and being home with them all day, were often exhausting for me, because their minds were quicker, their needs more intense and their physical endurance longer than mine. I literally have the lowest IQ in the house, and I think as an ungifted mom raising three gifted kids and married to a gifted husband, I often envied other mothers who weren't pushed beyond themselves on a daily basis. I now know that thanks to them, I've grown tremendously in ways I wouldn't have pushed myself, and love each of them dearly, but when they were toddlers, there were days ...

When DD was an infant, it wasn't so much her that looked like an alien creature in public as it was DW and myself. DD was a very easygoing baby overall (apart from the colick in the first three months, and then the aforementioned self-soothing thing) but boredom was the enemy. So she'd be in her baby carrier in the grocery cart, and whoever was pushing the cart would be maintaining a CONSTANT one-way conversation with her. Some of it would be describing what we're doing at that moment, and some of it would be random absurdities, for our own consumption and amusement, because it can be pretty exhausting otherwise.

So yeah, we'd be nattering for the entire trip through the store, and drawing looks the whole way.

DD was really easy when it came to naps. We'd notice the signs that she needed a nap and point this out to her. After a while, she started requesting naps on her own. Once we finished the self-soothing thing she still woke up once a night for feedings, but I (DW sleeps like the dead) had those down to a science to where I only had to be up for a couple of minutes; everything was pre-staged and ready to go.

Are girls nosier? DD would rather be hungry than nursing when she hears someone/something.

Boredom has been a topic around here. Some people say babies can't be bored, but with both kids, that seems to have been by far the most common reason for crying. Gashes in the chin cause a little wimpering, but bordom once the blood stops flowing and you're still supposed to sit still for a few minutes. That causes Crying.

DS2mos is my incontrovertable proof that the universe never sends you more than you can handle. The child is zen incarnate. That said, we'd better darned well not try and stay home all day. That's the thing I notice most about my kids and my friend's kids that I'm pretty sure IS real... Mine needed to get out of the house starting at about 1 mo (DS1) and about 6wks (DS2). We just don't have the option of staying home all day. If we do everyone is bored to tears, shrieks, and wails, and tearing each other to peices by about 1pm. 2PM with television shows.

Also, other people leave musueums BEFORE closing time. This seems very alien to me

On continuous discussion with the kid in the cart: We resemble that comment. A lot. I remember I had no voice from about 7mos to about 20 mos with DS1. Just 'cause I had to talk that much. Continuously, all day. From the time he got his first word "Dat?" until he had enough words to talk BACK.

And, actually, I think there IS scientific proof. I'd look under "birth order..."

-Mich

My second seemed a lot easier than my intense first until he hit about 3. (He was a really lovely 2yo.) Other people now perceive him as rather challenging. He has his moments, but is still a cinch compared to DD.

Both kids sleep well and in fact, DD requires a LOT of sleep. BTW, we sleeptrained DD but it didn't really work for DS--the "easy" one. (??)

Not to be Debbie Downer, but numero Dos was far more intense and challenging than our eldest. That's why there's no numero tres!

Ds came out of the womb ALL BOY. He'd run across the dining room and the family room at high speed and perform a full superman leap onto dd who was playing with her dolls, minding her own business. He started this as soon as he could walk. By 18 months of age he had found and removed every child lock with a toy screwdriver - thanks Bob The Builder.

He hit, he bit, he scratched, he had temper tantrums and like his sister, he rarely slept. He had a sensory issue. He was allergic to a gazillion things. And he had a severe speech disorder resulting in us understanding him 17% of the time.

We were exhausted. But it was worth it. He was also cuddly, sweet and oh so loving.
And he's now a mature 12 year old who has good leadership qualities and is friendly and kind. And after years of therapy, private and public, we rarely can't understand him.

Wasn't sure we would ever get to this point. And now sometimes I miss that chubby, bossy 3 year old.

Our second was much, much easier as a baby. Heck, even the labor didn't involve a three day induction, so I can say that was easier!

On the other hand, I'm kind of leaning toward our oldest being easier as an older kid and teen than our younger one, who talks non-stop and is rather defensive and oppositional. I really didn't do anything differently with the two of them!

I notice the "zombie" type look on kids around here too. Very different look in their eyes compared to what I see in mine. I thought for a while that I felt mine were more focused just because I KNOW my kids. But quickly that assumption was out the window. There is a huge, undeniable difference.

When DS4 was not even a year old he would be playing with a labyrinth toy at the play center we go to with a lot of other kids. The difference in focus was very apparent. The same now with DS2 (do not know yet if he is gifted too but I suspect)
I saw a video just recently of DS2 being about 10 minutes old. He was "sitting up" against my legs as I was laying down, eyes wide open, looking around...he looks like he is about 3 months old. At the time I didn't now anything different since DS4 was the same way. I also was not aware of the gifted concept. But it sure looks really funny to me now that I realize that is probably not normal....:-)

Our 2nd was our easiest, our third our hardest, *i* was the zombie that first year, not her. She's the most delightful and difficult child... And probably our most gifted at a guess.

I thought I was just imagining I saw that "sleepy" look. That's a perfect description.

DS' eyes are always sparkling and alert and when you see him with most other kids his age (and some older), you see the difference.

We've even had complete strangers comment on how engaging he is.

Other children often seemed drugged with that glazed look, and I was always taken aback by their language which seemed very babyish. They often seemed much less intense, and I was stunned at how they could just sit and stare into space. My children always seemed very restless, intense, awake, and just THERE in an obvious way. I feel guilty writing all this and it seems so politically incorrect to admit, but its the truth.

Umm. Trying to say this gently. Feel free to disagree with me loudly.

The "Do you brag?" thread was a big discussion about how other people can get wound up if we talk about our kids and traits they were born with. Some people felt it was unfair to judge a gifted child negatively for traits he was born with.

It seems to me that some of the posts on this thread cross (way over) the line and are looking down on other children for the way that they were born. I don't think we want to come across as looking down on others (?), yet I think this thread is doing just that.

This is just my two little pennies dropping quietly onto the table of discussion.

"I told DH... you know, maybe the other parents look at our daughter and think she has a dazed look on her face, too. We just think she is alert and there because we are used to her. Maybe no one else notices DD's alertness and thinks their child is the most aware one there..."
-quoting OP

It stands to reason that you'd be more tuned in to your own kid. This is a spin-off of the Infant Alertness thread, right?! It is posted in the preschool, and most of the posters in this thread have the younger kids. The socially appropriate way to make this comparison is endless threads about, "help! My toddler won't stop!". Not, "um, why are the other kids going in slow-mo?". Get some class, folks! (i'm seriously the pot & kettle there.).

My perceptions of same age kids is they're all hooligans since we don't do Sunday School or Preschool my kids socialize at the playground at the mall. I didn't know Zombies could run that fast. Actually, I'm the Zombie and my kids ate my brain.

The other kids always seemed... lesser to me somehow, sub-human almost, in a throwbacky kind of way that I couldn't quite fathom. Then, once I got DS's achievement and IQ testing results, I knew the reason. They were. I knew then why when I brought doughnuts to day care one day, DS picked a powdered one packed with jelly, the way his head is packed full of brains, while the others picked the glazed ones with holes in the middle.

I lol'd like the Pillsburry Doughboy.

Yes. Thank you. Not every child is gifted--but every child is a gift--even if that child's IQ is at the other end of the bell curve.

I'm glad this worked for you, but it does not work for every kid. My dd was pulling her hair out when we attempted this. Literally. Our household also became much more peaceful when I decided to trust my instincts and understanding of my kid rather than other people's expectations.

Wow--this sounds so much like my dd! And ITA with your last sentence. Mine was very good at communicating those needs, too, lol!

Gifted babies are alert, especially exceptionally gifted ones. This difference between typical infants/children and gifted ones is probably due to faster brain development. This doesn't make them better, just different.

Describing a biological fact around others experiencing the same phenomenon is wonderful for those that have no other forum to discuss this in. My husband and I have had numerous doctors, relatives, teachers and friends comment on our son's differences in relation to other children. It can make you feel very alone. I loved how this thread allowed me to relate to others experiencing the same thing. I love that there is a forum where discussing this is acceptable.

I would hate for the freedom of speech allowed by this forum to be subverted by some idea that we need to be extra-sensitive to those with non-gifted children. In real life, that's all I do--constantly filtering my speech--and frankly, I need some breathing room. I need a place where I can hear that other people relate to me.

If that means some people are offended, so be it.

From what I've seen of life, most people believe their kids are the best, whether they are gifted or not. Every parent looks for the ways their children stand out. If this was a forum about athletically gifted children, there would be some parent discussing how their child stood out from all the "clumsy, uncoordinated children".
I'm sure some parents would find that offensive.

Some people *like* to be offended and that's their problem, not mine.

I mean, really, how dare we talk freely about our gifted children on a gifted forum.
<>

The point wasn't that you were talking freely about your gifted child, which is a big part of what this forum is about. The point was that you and others made nasty remarks about other people's kids. I'm not sure why someone would want to do that, or why remarking that maybe it isn't very nice results in segues about restricting free speech.

"All the other babies had these glazed looks."

compare with

"All those gifted kids are so totally weird. They think they're better than the rest of us."

Many people here have had to suffer remarks like this one and they can be very hurtful! Many also commiserate over them here and we discuss how mean-spirited remarks like this are. So why should we make the same kinds of remarks about other people's babies or toddlers?

or try

"People who make nasty remarks about the way some children are born are saying more about themselves than they are about the people they're belittling."

This thread, like the one I started about bragging, began with very good intentions. As parents of gifted children, we've all realized in that in many ways our children had unique qualities early on. But to start calling children who are not gifted subhuman, totally weird, glazed... I can't help but think it's to be provocative. And I don't get that.

I'm not gifted.

I also doubt I was subhuman as a baby. Or maybe I am simply deceiving myself. Maybe other parents did think I was glazed and totally weird. Glad I'll never know.

It's one thing to talk freely about our gifted children on a gifted forum.

It's quite another to mock and degrade those who are not. That pretty much scrapes the bottom of the barrel of common decency.

I've found wonderful help here on theses forums, but the snide, nasty remarks that seem to flow quite freely these days make it far less likely that I'll remain an active part of this online community.

But you have good advice.

Guess what-- This entire forum is a wonderful place to get support and understanding from other parents who get what raising a gifted child is like. No one is trying to take away your freedom of speech. I don't like to be offended and am not easily offended. Have you considered that there are parents ON THIS forum who have children who are not gifted? It doesn't seem like rocket science to discuss this without comparing kids to inanimate objects, and 99.9% of the time the posters here manage to do sensitively. Val's post made a valid point.

I'm going to say too much so I'll try to cut it into a couple of posts.
I was raised fanatically religious.  There wasn't really terms related to gifted issues flowing freely, back in the day.
I would say that giftedness is a stronger spirit.  That's all the vocabulary I had to describe what I was seeing.  As a new mom, someone online told me that was a terrible thing to say, and, how offensive to the non-gifted, and, what if my kids aren't as gifted as I think.  They said,  "Logically, if I think giftedness is a reflection of the spiritual, then I would think less of my children if they weren't as gifted as I assume, if I was to equate giftedness with depth of substance."  That's what someone assumed I would feel.  But I always used to say  that there's not a heck of a lot of difference between the highest IQ and the lowest IQ human as compared to the difference between human and God.  That assumption that someone said would logically follow how I'd feel if my kids weren't very gifted,  according to their interpretation of the logical end of my belief in giftedness as a solid level of substance and something close to spiritual.  Their logical ending of my thought had nothing to do with my own internal sequence of what that belief would lead to.  ((google Davidson gifted forum + Carol Dweck to find out where my thoughts & feelings end up from that idea.))
Anyway that Giftedness facet that I was calling spiritual ... Here's 2 more descriptions of what other people called it..
1.) My hubby said of our son, as soon as he knows enough to understand the question, he always gets the answer.  2.)The other explanation I clipped from TWTM today because they said it better too-

I had entirely the opposite experience, my gifted child is the one who seems to be walking around in a daze. I'm the one who wishes I had the active early achievers who are paying attention and exploring and living in the world around them, instead of the one in her head. She may be able to ace any math and reading class, but she can't even do a somersault, nor does she care to.

The point is there's ways to say things. Oy. My own way has improved. That's not censorship, it's acquiring a vocabulary for things that we're really just starting to talk about. Grinnity has said we're inventing a vocabulary here because these things have not been talked about like every thing else in the world has. Some things don't have their own words yet.

Seriously??

It's a "nasty remark" and mocking or degrading to state a non-judgmental fact that, "All the other babies had these glazed looks." Glazed, defined as "marked by a lack of expression", is a perfect adjective to describe a child that is not alert. Early alertness is a defining trait of gifted children.

There is nothing demeaning in this statement; it's simply a fact. There are no judgements here, just a retelling of my personal experience. I clearly stated in a later post that, "This doesn't make them better, just different."

To assume that I was being "nasty" just proves my point.

Some people want to be offended, and will twist any words said to achieve that effect.

Why assume that others are "looking down on other children for the way that they were born." Why assume anything? Why be so judgmental with such meager knowledge? Why focus that critical eye on others, instead of using it wisely on yourself?

You don't have the ability to accurately judge someone else's feelings/intents/thoughts. You do, however, have the ability to assess yourself and your own feelings. When you feel offended, it means something very relevant and true about yourself. Figure out what that is.

I realize some of the posts on this thread could be seen as insensitive, but I try to hear the message behind the post. I try to give strangers the benefit of the doubt. I really don't see the point in being judgmental or trying to restrict someone's voice (even if it is unpleasant or not what we want to hear).

Be kind, right?
Don't we agree on that?

Here is an example:

I assume, knowing there is a good chance I may be wrong, that lucounu was being sarcastic in her post where she states that non-gifted children are "sub-human". I assume this because it paints her in a better light than if her post was serious. It is aways a kindess to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Even with this assumption, I find her post mocking to the posters before her, but that is less harsh of a judgement than to believe that she believes non-gifted children are sub-human. Either way, her post is not kind, but I choose to believe she is less offensive because that is a kindness I show her.

Since I know I am "assuming", I know that I could be wrong with any of the statements above. I'm not in her head and I don't know her intentions or feelings. If I find it unkind, I'll make a note of that, but no lasting impression of her, because I may be wrong in my judgements.

I don't choose to be offended.
It's always a choice.

I like what lucounu said in an earlier thread, " it's best all around if we try to be tactful. In my experience there are a great many times when a thoughtful person could easily avoid offense that seems to be routinely given."

Being tactful is a good thing (and this is likely Val's point as well), but remembering that a "thoughtful person" might not be intentionally giving offense is equally important.

Welcome to the Congregation of Frustration!  The devil is in the details and God is in the nuance.  BTW, I am not religious.  I'm just illustrating how we tend to use the words at our disposal to communicate about the things we've see when haven't really talked about them much.  There's probably a more precise way than syfy creatures to describe, but we lack the words.    I've got nothing against zombies.  My own toddler girl is either a vampire or a werewolf.  At first she didn't show up in a sonagram, so they said she was a blighted egg, a miscarriage.  Then when she did turn out to be there we figured out she's a vampire or something, so she didn't show up on film.  Then I've got several photographs that are not blurry that her eyes come out completely white, like a cave fish.  It's happened on a couple cameras and different folks taking pictures.  She has beautiful blue/brown hazel eyes.  

Oh wait!  They look like zombies because they drool & eat.  So what are your kids?  Orcs, because they hunt?  ((oh, don't slip off into silliness...I could so go there.  I've been trying to learn to use my Grown Up words.)) Arggh!  

Actually, metaphorically is not a bad way to talk about these things.  I just read at TWTM that's why they have their kids study classic literature- to have words and metaphors to join "the great conversation". (of which other peoples kids is a part, I'm sure. No snark.  Literally).   All the sci-fi and fantasy metaphors for political observations and observations about people in general.  That's why the classics are classic, because the writers were gifted and they had something to say about people, but they had to make a story to say it because some things don't come across well in a sentence or two.

This is just a weird thing with both irises being white instead of blue/brown/hazel, not the typical "red eye" effect on flash photographs being white instead of red, right? Because the latter can be a symptom of something nasty (http://www.daisyfund.org/rb/leuko/index.html).

I assumed it was because her eyes change colors her pigment must be different.  I've seen the dark grey/blue on film & the brown shows up, but not the light grey blue.  I pm'd you.

I agree it can offend some people and come off as judgmental, but I was just stating an observation.

Is it kind and politically correct to make that observation? Maybe not. But other babies do often look sleepy to us and that is just the way it is. I was honestly wondering if anyone else noticed that or if it is just a function of knowing your own child.

On the bragging thread, I pretty much said people can think whatever they want and that I'm going to try to be sensitive but I won't completely moderate what I say to please others.

Maybe I need to work on social skills or empathy or something, but I'm pretty happy with life right now and I accept who I am. I was a kid that got called "weird" or whatever because of traits I was probably born with. Kids couldn't put a finger on why they didn't like me (they said that)... they just didn't and thought I "thought too much" and did everything "too much."

Other parents are FREE to make the observation that the members of my family are "weird". Because, guess what? We may be weird to them. We inhale books like air and play "Guess the Latin word meaning" while driving somewhere. It might hurt my feelings a little, but they don't "get" us and it doesn't matter if they do. I probably don't get some of the things they do.

It hurt my feelings when I was younger, but it would have helped a great deal if my parents would have told me why the other kids didn't always "get" me.

One kid looking sleepier than another is apparently an observable phenomenon.

Saying- That child looks sleepier than mine is one thing. Saything "What an obviously dumb child." is another and I haven't heard anyone saying that.

What would be a judgment... is if, for example, I observed a toddler eating Mcdonald's and then negatively judged another parent for allowing that. I shouldn't judge, but I've done so much research that watching a toddler eat Mcdonald's would make me cringe. I'd rather start a thread and talk about whether it is right or not to judge in such a situation and if it is not right, how to keep ourselves from mentally judging (or doing so out loud.)

I think every person on the planet has judged other people before for making what they consider to be poor decisions.

Making honest observations (not in a purposely mean-spirited way) about how a person acts or is or talking about how other people make you feel (yes, even about the parents of gifted children when they inadvertently make you feel like your child doesn't measure up) is not necessarily a bad thing, imo.

This thread is fun!

I wish I had time to play wordball today.

I thought lucounu was being literal.  That's why I lol'd because it's funny because it's true.  I laughed out loud and my face turned red.

I just googled, "non-gifted kids are sluggish".  No scholarly results came up to cite.  But a search for "gifted babies are more alert" produced tons of websites.  Isn't that the same thing?  

I do know what you're saying.  I've seen some kids who have not spent as much time being engaging.  You can tell because of how they respond when they catch your attention or an adult engages them in front of you.  But I would say most other people's kids look like mine.  Actually I don't really see sluggish kids because my kids always engage other kids so they always perk up.   (I know kids like mine would aggravate the 91ss out of my mom, who prided herself on well-behaved kids ignoring other peoples kids in the store.  Jajaja.  If you're in line in front of me my kids are gonna peek-a-boo & giggle with your kids.)

I just thought it was interesting that tons of websites say "gifted babies are more alert" but none of them say "non-gifted babies are sluggish".  Omg!  Now if anyone googles those words they'll end up at this thread.  Me and my big mouthed fingers.

That's the nice thing about the internet bulletin boards, they're outside of time and space. This conversation will be here when you get a round toit.

This thread has taken a turn since I checked in last! Like I said at the beginning, I do know that people commented on dd13's alertness regularly when she was a baby but I don't know that I was noting other babies' lack of alertness or viewing them in a negative light. Dd was, and is, different, but not better.

I do think that is it very valid to discuss things that stand out about gifted kids and also probably much kinder to avoid characterizing ND children by comparing them negatively to those differences.

FWIW, I, too, took lucounu's post as tongue in cheek since that's one that has come up as judgemental.

You know I almost like this discussion calling all the other people's kids different more than I like the threads that say, "oh I wish my kids weren't "gifted", because that makes them different".  Celebrate Giftedness!

And if I offended anybody, here's my flowery appology:
http://player.vimeo.com/video/27920977?title=0&%3bbyline=0&%3bportrait=0href=

Click on the > play button on the lower left, not on the []s in the middle.
Enjoy!

Have any of the other parents of mixed-race kids noticed that kids who aren't mixed are kind of, well, not that cute? At first, I thought I was the only one who noticed it, but seriously, strangers come up to me all the time to point out how beautiful my DD is. Even people who have seen lots of kids do it, and when I googled, it turns out that research shows it's true - people who aren't mixed just aren't that attractive. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100414092523.htm

IMHO, there is no polite way of saying someone else's kid is ugly. It does not matter if you're saying it about a class of kids, rather than a specific kid. It does not matter whether you attempt to cushion it with an appeal to empirical proof that some classes of kids are ugly. It does not matter how many other people agree that some classes of kids are ugly. It does not matter how honest and nonjudgmental your intentions are. It does not matter how many ugly people are in your family, or whether someone called you ugly when you were a kid. There is no polite way to call someone else's kid ugly.

And IMHO saying "my kid is remarkably beautiful" is not at all the same as saying "your kid is ugly," or even "ugly by comparison to mine."

I'm sure someone is going to respond by saying, "there's absolutely nothing wrong with being sleepy / lazy / glazed / slow / ADHD / blank / sedated / wrong / zombies / handbags / lumps / drugged / babyish / OMG I'm not even halfway through the thread." There's absolutely nothing wrong with being ugly, either. That still doesn't make it polite to point out.

One thing that's always attracted me to this forum is that the quality of conversation here tends to be pretty high. Different people have different perspectives, and interesting articles or ideas get posted all the time. I really like that.

This forum is pretty much the only online parenting forum I visit. Any others that I've looked at seem to have too many members engaging in one-upmanship and putdowns. IMO, this type of thing is pretty petty and just detracts from the value of a conversation. It reminds me of the garbage I used to put up with in seventh grade. Too many mean girls, too little respect for others.

This thread has shown a lot of disrespect and a lot of nastiness. A couple of members have tried to justify their posts by writing that "I'm just making an observation," but this seems rather disingenuous and an excuse. As others have observed, there's big difference between saying,

My baby was really alert when he was a week old. Did anyone else notice that? and Other kids look like they've been dosed with sedatives compared to mine.

These two sentences could easily be interpreted as meaning:

My baby was really alert when he was a week old. Did anyone else notice that?

and

Other kids are so brain dead compared to my uberchild.

Emm. I kind of got the impression that this was what Iucounu was trying to communicate.

This thread has been disheartening for me not just because people here actually wrote that other children are zombies/dazed/glazed/drugged compared to their little geniuses. Worse is the fact that at least a couple people don't really seem to get (or care) that what they said is crass and belittling. Why would a person feel a need to belittle another? This is not something I get. As I said, people can (disingenuously IMO) claim that they're just being "honest" or engaging in free speech, but I think that other people may see through that. And I'm thinking that this attitude probably comes across in a general way if it's expressed so bluntly here.

So, yeah, a right to free speech includes a right to belittle other people's kids because they aren't as stupefyingly, electron-splittingly jelly-doughnut brilliant as your own little megabrained toddler and his IQ of ten to the power of six. We are all so small in comparison, I just hope my kids don't go blind from the sheer reflected magnificence of it all. We're just trying to muddle through as best we can, you know?

I guess I'm just voting that you want to belittle others, I'd prefer you do it somewhere else. PM each other. Call each other. Talk at the water cooler. Be as vicious as you please in private. Just don't give people like the woman who wrote that sick-of-hearing-about-your-gifted-kid-blog a valid reason to complain about parents of gifted kids. Please?

I agree with this. And re: lucounu's post--I do have a sense of humor, and I totally get that it was tongue in cheek--it was sort of the cumulative effect of the word choices leading up to it.

For whatever it is worth and getting back to the OP--my gifted dd11 was incredibly alert as an infant, and the word my mom used to describe her the most even when she was only a few weeks old and still several weeks away from her due date was intense.

If you are a mother of an "ugly" baby, you aren't going to want to hear any of those statements and you certainly won't thank the other mother for saying the first one instead of the second or third one. The first statement implies the other--it's just a more polite way of being insensitive or even cruel if that's your thing.



Absolutely agree ... in a different context. Good thing this is a gifted forum!

If I was the mother of an unattractive child and I went on a forum for remarkably beautiful children. What right do I have to complain when they talk about first noticing that their child was different and how, in specific, they were different? If this talk makes me uncomfortable, maybe I shouldn't be frequenting this forum? If hearing about how everyone commented on their infant's amazing beauty or perfect features offends me, why am I reading it? If hearing about how other children just didn't have that same perfect symmetry offends me, why am I reading it? And why shouldn't those parents have a forum to find others like them. More power to them!

Why are we acting like it's not OK to notice that gifted children are different, or to talk about it with other gifted parents?

So silly.

Exactly right on. Thank you for taking the time to post, because I think this really gets at the heart of it.

Very well put!

NO one is acting like it isn't OK--there a million posts doing just that, it is the purpose of this forum.

Every parent here is one extra chromosome (although I suppose that brings up a 'whole nother issue better not getting into here), one head injury, one car accident away from finding out what it is like to have a kid on the other end of the curve. And there are already other parents here who live it daily. Just because I happen to have a kid with special needs doesn't mean I don't need a place to discuss his two gifted sisters.

Noticing gifted children are different doesn't require insulting others. Perhaps there are parents on this forum who have a gifted child and a non-gifted child? Perhaps there are parents on this forum who have gifted children who had a 'glazed' look as an infant. Even parents of gifted children may find the comments insulting and tactless.

Your argument would come across better if you set aside all your negative assumptions about others. You are so concerned with how "vicious" everyone else is that you are blind to your own viciousness or belittling.

I'm interested in your thoughts, otherwise I wouldn't have commented. I liked that you brought up a different perspective. I wouldn't be arguing so strongly if I didn't think I had something to learn from you.

Personally, I wouldn't be offended if someone remarked that their child was remarkably beautiful. It's OK that DS isn't remarkable beautiful. It's OK that other parents have something to rally around. I'm happy for them. I don't find it offensive when other parents talk about the areas my DS is weak in. I don't find it offensive at all. Why would I? I'm not insecure.

Would they be displaying a lack of tact, sure. But that doesn't make someone mean or vicious. You can't see someone's heart by guessing at their intentions.

Why so defensive? Why so attacking?

It's a friendly discussion, no?

I disagree. The first is an (accurate or otherwise) judgement of Kid A, and the second is an (accurate or otherwise) judgement of Kid B. If I say that Kid A is remarkably beautiful, that tells you nothing about Kid B (and something about the speaker). If I tell you Kid B is ugly, that tells me something about Kid B (and something about the speaker).

Every parent is kind of expected to think their own kid is beautiful. That doesn't really mean that every parent is expected to think that everyone else's kid is ugly.

AlexsMom, I quite agree with you and I'm glad you posted.

The Mother in question may still find the first statement offensive.
She may be sensitive to her child's looks and find the speaker cruel.

This illustrates my point perfectly.
When statements are easy to misinterpret ("other babies looked glazed"), it is our own insecurities and projections that determine our interpretation of them.

Yup esp. on the last sentence.

I'm just saying we're using syfy channel & nickelodian words- zombie, drugged, glazed donut. (I lol'd again.). I'm learning grown up words for a lot of things. Wait a minute and let me think., I'll come up with the grown up mommy way to describe what you're talking about. I'm trying to understand what you're saying, I'm usually very good at that, but I'm trying to use my new grown up mommy brain, so give me a minute. My quick gifted ageless gifted brain was so much more efficient.


Meanwhile, props to Alexmom's great anology of parenting mixed-race kids to illustrate the difference between "gifted babies are alert" and "other kids are sluggish".

Hmm...
I agree with the poster who pointed out that saying "Gifted babies are more alert" is the same as saying "Normally developing children are less alert."

You can't be "more alert" without someone being "less alert".

It is kind of like the debates I've been a part of where people agree that... "Breastfeeding may lower the risk of certain diseases."

But they get very angry when you say "The absence of breastfeeding (and in the case of all the studies, that means the presence formula feeding) may increase the risk of certain diseases."

They don't want to hear or agree with the fact that, stated another way, breastfeeding is technically the normal way mammals feed their young and that anything deviating from that could, potentially, result in a higher risk for certain things (in this case, diseases or infections because the child doesn't get the benefit of mom's antibodies.)

They get upset about making formula feeding moms feel bad when that has nothing to do with it.

I strongly dislike arguments that revolve around how to say things "politely" or in a politically correct way. It really irks me.

But if we are going that way... I suppose zombie or "glazed look" might be a little strong, but sleepy isn't.

And it would make me pretty mad if someone called my baby ugly... but when my daughter was small I had several people (once, women I didn't even know taking a walk by our home), tell me that my baby was pretty and that they were "sorry", but some babies are kind of ugly. It's like they wanted to confess that to me because they thought my baby didn't fit the profile and I would be flattered or agree with them.

I've heard lots of normal, usually nice people confess that they think some babies are "ugly". It isn't very nice and you should not tell someone that you think that about their baby. But in the right context, praising one baby for being beautiful and not the other is technically calling the other less good looking, if not actually ugly. People just don't normally admit it out loud!

Saying a bright child has a bright, alert look about them is also comparing that child to the children around him and it very obviously suggests that the children around him don't look so bright.

Technically, it's the reader's level of offensensitivity.

See the Bloom County comic strip in the first comment of the following link:

http://worldofsuck.net/index.php/offending-the-easily-offended?blog=10

Here is a thought to consider: if one is to protest vociferously the right to make unfiltered comments that others may find offensive, it must also be just as valid for others to freely state that the comment was offensive.

Our choice of words, especially in a forum where context is difficult to interpret, ought not be filtered by what may get us banned or a thread shut down but by respect for the community as a whole.

This is a gifted forum where parents ought to be able to brag and rejoice in the successes and unique capabilities of their children. But in my humble opinion, that freedom ought to come with the obligation to be sensitive in our word choice to make every effort possible to not mock or degrade others in the process.

That has been my concern with this thread.

(and I did totally misinterpret loconou's comments; for that I am sorry)

How would you describe what you're noticing about Other People's Kids if you were planning on discussing the observation with your kid?

(I'm on the right track. I'll get there.)

It's actually good to think about, because if you notice it your observant kids will too, and knowing kids they'll blurt it out in the middle of the grocery store. May as well figure out a nice way to say it so we can talk to our kids about it rather than shutting them up when they say it.

I'm going to respond, because I feel like we're not responding directly to one another much in this thread. lol.


Yes. How do we find a polite, grown up way to observe something and discuss it with someone else (like a child), if we need to?

This is exactly something a child might notice.

Let me try. I came home from 1st grade and asked my mom why the other kids were so "stupid" and "Why can't they read?" I don't think she gave me a very good response.

But what could we say to a child when she notices her peers seem slower or don't know what she knows yet?

Everyone learns at their own pace?
Some children need to learn about things a few times, but you learn things after seeing them once or twice?



I'm out of ideas. The conclusion the child will come to will inevitably be..."Oh, I'm faster at learning and those kids are slower." And it would be a correct conclusion, but a rude way to say it out loud.

I don't know either. That's why Grinnity has said before we're developing a whole new language and a new way of talking about things as part of our experience on this forum. Nobody said it was going to be easy. (your mom probably shut you up, right? Now where's your "nice" words to describe what you saw?)

We could just tell the truth.
"You sometimes learn things more quickly than other children. Yes, that means they take longer to learn things and may seem slow to you, but it isn't polite to say that out loud. You should try to be patient with other children like that. If you tell another child that she is "slow", you'll hurt her feelings."

I would love if my child was more tolerant than I was of the slower children, but most of the time they drove me nuts. It wasn't just that they played games "wrong"... most of my frustration stemmed from the slow pace of school. I'm hoping homeschooling and introducing her to kids of all ages will help with some of that.

It's easy to get defensive when someone calls us on our use of offensive speech: "It's all in the ears of the hearer", "Some people just like to be offended and it's nobody else's fault", "There are possible interpretations besides the glaringly obvious hurtful ones", "You're making my point for me", etc. It's often easy to cut through such nonsense by simply putting oneself in the position of the specific hearer, and likely others as well.

Might someone get offended upon learning that someone described her child as a zombie? Weird? Glazed (i.e. lifeless etc.)? Of course they certainly would, and reasonably so-- any argument to the contrary is so ridiculous that it terminates any pretense at reasonable debate. It's pure bull****. (If you insert an offensive term there, it's your issue and not mine.)

If any posters here saw a little of their own attitudes in my previous post, I hope it stings a little. The extent to which it does may be the extent to which they can easily change to become more kind and mindful of others, when discussing topics with such an obvious capacity for hurt feelings-- and with such recent evidence of the sort of backlash their attitudes cause against the parents of gifted children. There may be little hope for those who stick to their guns even after someone lets them know that they have been personally, directly offended to the point of leaving this site.

Oh, and we can add some nice things about the other child, if we know the other child (He / she may not understand the point of puzzles yet, but is caring and fun to play tag with. Or whatever.)

I get the point that it's more polite to talk about our children directly without any comparisons to others (even on a gifted forum like this). I also understand that tact, even on a forum, is always a good thing. These are valid points and easy to see. It's too bad that so few of you understand my points.

It's not kind to make negative judgements about other posters based on scant evidence of any intent to be vicious. You can't both want to increase the politeness and kindness in the world, and yet also, find it acceptable to be both judgmental and vicious in doing so. That's hypocritical.

In your quest is to make the world a kinder place, start with yourselves.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

That's my point. Got it?

I think we'd be talking about calling everybody in the world dull and lifeless by just looking at them at the supermarket. I didn't know we were talking about other people's kids we actually know & spend time with.

You don't understand my point, but you clearly illustrate what I'm saying.

I rest my case.

The PBS answer is, "everybody that you meet, when you're walking down the street, has got an original point of view."

I'm looking for the words to say, "baby. You're not crazy. I see it to. I prefer to call it... To be cont.'d

I truly hope ABQ mom doesn't end up getting ran off. I truly value the practical people.

Agree with most of that...
If I am honest with myself, I'd have to admit that my own stance on just telling it like it is stems from an entire lifetime of being misunderstood, put down and treated badly. No one ever thought it was important to censor what they said to me.... yet, I was supposed to censor myself. I had to "dumb" myself down and avoid saying certain things.

Most of us on here still do that, daily. So... we want more acceptance from people like "I hate hearing about your gifted kid" lady, so we need to model good behavior.. .
OK. I like that idea, but I think that, in reality, there will always be people who feel bad or jealous of other people. It is human nature and not going anywhere. Trying our best to not offend someone else won't make them more tolerant of us. And I really, really think this thread has been quite tame.

And I personally think I keep what I say pretty "tame". Other babies look "sleepy" to me. I don't know. I missed the gifted cut-off and I was apparently one of those "blanket babies" who behaved everywhere. Maybe I had a glazed look. But I am SO not offended!

I used to agonize over it a bit more when I was younger (maybe even on this forum?), but now I know what my capabilities are (and aren't) and it is what it is. I accept where I'm at. There are lots of people in the world who look better than me and do things better than I do. I'm just somewhere on a spectrum.

There are many many people who have not reached the level of acceptance I have about some things, but when does considering their feelings (these imaginary offended people apparently reading these words) get ridiculous? I can respect the feelings of my friend that I'm talking to, but it is nice to have the freedom to talk about things like this on an online forum... I can't control who drops in from google. Maybe the anonymity of forums is a problem, though... people are certainly more honest and even cruel online.

I think the differing opinions on this also come from having different personality types. (Ex: MBTI.. F vs T)

Yes, I don't walk on egg shells so as not to offend the easily offended.
That's called--being healthy!

Do I occasionally offend without meaning to? Sure. So do you.
That's different than being intentionally cruel and posting posts that I hope will "sting others."

I rest my case.

I feel dull and lifeless right now.

It helps that I'm drafting a legal brief.

Yes @ the egg shells thing. If you have to do that, it usually means you are in an abusive relationship!

Maybe we simply don't agree on what the meaning of "is" is. In my universe, continuing on a course of action with known consequences = intent to cause those consequences. {shrug} We could engage in sophistry over whether avoiding terms like "zombie", "weird", "glazed", etc., which are insulting to so many people (read as: the entire ND human race) when applied to their children, constitutes "walking on eggshells", but I can't think of a more useless use of my time.

Is it possible to be in an abusive relationship with an Internet chatboard?

I saw an ad for something like that on craigslist. I don't want to talk about it.

See what I mean about Great Literature giving us better words to join the generational Great Conversation?

Well, you can actually explain it that way without calling someone slow. I tell my son and his friends that it may take him longer to learn things, and he has to try harder. So yes, he is slower to learn, but if adults on this forum don't get that the connotation of calling someone slow is different than that I don't know how to explain it.

And yes, I felt the same way about the slow pace of school as a kid.

lol. maybe!

I don't believe that the posters who were talking about differences between their children and others on this thread meant to offend. I will continue to defend them because I think it's wrong to be so judgmental.

I do believe that some of the posters who decided to pass judgement on the earlier posters were trying to offend. I will continue to direct them to their own hypocrisy.


That said, I do believe it's important to use tact and sensitivity when discussing our children, especially outside of these forums, but inside as well. I'm an advocate of that. I just don't believe people should have to walk on eggshells in these forums.

Thank you.

JonLaw,

Don't you have some legal brief to work on?
You are making me laugh too hard over here.

I just asked my husband about this and he's a pretty caring sensitive guy...
He thinks we should feel comfortable talking about stuff like this, since we are in the "company of our own peers"... other people who might "get it".


Has it occurred to you guys how offensive it might be to person who has a child who is... ND. We have a special acronym around here... ND.. for normally developing children. We have a very specific acronym, just so we can easily distinguish between what a "ND" does and what our children do. There is no tip toeing around it... this whole forum is about how gifted children are different.

Geesh, JonLaw, if anybody was offended by those words I'd say they were offends by what they heard and not really by what you said. (I'm sure that's not about the title of this thread, dear lurkers. This thread is on a path of it's own.). I think it's the "forum guidelines discussion - revisited, for those who missed it.)

Here's that thread. IIRC we talked a lot about censorship & sensitivity.

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/108426/1.html

I have just re read my own post and I feel bad about the tone of it, it came out sounding nasty. But in fact I do have that exact conversation very regularly with my DH. People keep telling me to "stand around and chat with the other parents" to make friends for myself or my kids. To "spend some time in the classroom" to see where my kids are at or how best to support them. And I see other parents can actually to this because their toddlers just sit there, while mine is running with scissors or writhing in my arms like a screaming octopus. Sure I know they'll likely be great adults. By more of the good stuff has also come with more of the "absolute nightmare to parent from 6 months to 3+ years old". I would LOVE to make some friends, have more playdates for my older kids, spend time in the classroom etc. but one's toddler needs to be a bit more managable than mine is for that to work. It would be such a relief to have her sit nicely on my arm like a handbag just once. I am mentally and physically exauhsted.... Yeah I notice other people's kids are different, and short term I wish mine were too and that lead to me sounding far nastier in my first post than I intended. I don't love how different and difficult my toddler is in public. Yes she's "more", it's not always a good thing, though when she's not screaming like a banshee other people appear to find her fascinating.

Oh and for whoever asked, I HAVE had an older sibling ask loudly in the supermarket why our toddler was so much bigger, taller and smarter than all the other kids her age. That was yet another "will the ground just swallow me up now please" moment, I did not have a good answer ready and "she's not" would be patently untrue...she is all of those things.

I definitely had no issue with your original reply. Please don't take this as me attacking your most recent reply or anything... because I totally feel you on how difficult an intense toddler can be... but do you see what you did there?

It's the same thing I saw on a slew of gifted parenting mommy blogs when they replied to the BabyCenter lady.

Every post basically said, "Don't resent that my kid is gifted... It is hard having gifted kids and here are all the extra things we deal with... so stop feeling jealous and hateful toward us."

To me, it feels like the model gorgeous girl who dumbs herself down or plays up other issues she has so that the other girls can make themselves feel better, hate her less, and maybe even include her. (Yeah, she is beautiful - but she's dumb, so she's not all that.)

Giftedness has some extra issues that come along with it, but I really don't think they negate the academic advantage that does exist and why moms like BabyCenter mom feel compelled to write posts like that.

I think you are fully allowed to say you've noticed other kids hanging out with their moms the way handbags do. Because it is true and very different from your every day experience. You shouldn't need to elaborate about how tough it is... because *we* (here... in this gifted forum) already should understand.

If someone stumbles in from google and doesn't get it or gets offended... then they are having a different experience in life and that is just fine.

(I've been enjoying a glass of Sangria, so I hope this comes out right.)

What I mean is that the child is likely to come to the conclusion that the other child is "slow" or "slower" and I think I need to explain we shouldn't be telling other kids if we feel they are slow.

Feeling frustrated with a slower pace or a peer who doesn't get something is an understandable feeling, you just shouldn't be sharing it out loud with the child you think is slow or talk about that child, specifically, with someone else.

I just sipped my valentines bottle of Patron coffee bean Tequila . Um.., glass of wine too.  Annette and Island, I was going to talk to you guys too, because we're the main ones posting in this thread that are Native to the preschool forum.  Annette. I wanted to say your posts sounded just like mine when I was a new-to-the net mommy the year before last... I was all ..."and how can y'all tell me to be nice when y'all ain't being nice to me..and practice what you preach". 

Just commiserating.  Only mine wasn't here it was at what I thought was a kind hippy mamma forum.. Eek!  Not to other mothers (me) they weren't kind.  Turned out not to be hippies either.  Just offering you a little sympathy when everybody's rudely telling you your opinion's rude.  Also, I 've posted recently that I resent how  other people's Faults are OK, but mine aren't.  I'm not sure if that's because of the global tradition of, "you're smart, so you know better but other people don't (have to).". Or if I'm over-reacting and taking it to heart too much, ie, the pain of perfectionism.   
oMg!  I just admitted all the nonsense from my posts previous to this point were not wine-induced because they were before the nightcap.  .

How was Y'alls Valentine? I got a basket floral arrangement with various flowers plus some roses in it. I teased the hubby- look. I got old married lady flowers. I showed him on Facebook a newlywed relative's bouquet, all red with a red balloon. Look. She she got a new wife's bouquet.

I'm on my third pot of coffee for today.

Not to worry, coffee has no impact on my ability to sleep. In fact, as I sip this coffee, I'm getting sleepy. I'm going to go home and go to bed soon.

Island of apples - I am not dumbing down my day to day experience with a gifted toddler, it's not fun, I don't enjoy it, its utterly grueling, third time round has pretty much broken me. It's isolating, difficult and unpleasant, I am not saying "look we have problems too" and trying to fit in with the other mums - my child prevents me from having any opportunity to do fit in. I never get to talk to them and discover that we have nothing in common. I am just saying I do notice she is different and regularly wish she wasn't, although rationally I know her difference will serve her well in the future.

I feel your pain...thankfully mine like that is 4 and it is better now. Utterly grueling is how it was for me too. I think you can love your child uncondtionally and still be absolutely worn out from the demands of a kid like this. I know how hard it is.

I've found that forums with lots of moms generally have lots of judgment and other stuff flying around... but then, so do other forums I've seen. People just feel free to say things online they wouldn't say in person or in a crowd of different types of people.

I lol'd about the newlywed roses. My bouquet came from the grocery store and includes no roses, but I don't mind. It has all my favorite colors. I cleaned a few rooms in the house for my husband's gift. He was very happy. As you know, I'm no Flylady. We're so romantic haha.

I prefer others to inform me when a post offends. When that has happened in this forum (and it did once), I apologized, changed my post, and the person who complained told me later that it was her own insecurity that led her to take offense.

In this thread, I don't need to apologize, because my statement should not have been offensive to anyone with a decent vocabulary. Infants do have glazed eyes. I think it's perfectly acceptable to comment on typical development because typical development is perfectly acceptable.

From the University of Iowa's hospital website:

"In this state, your baby has smooth body movements and mild startles. The eyes may open and close and appear heavy lidded, dull, and glazed."
http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/maternitycenter/newborninfo/signals.html

Wow. How did that get past the censors! ;p

Was it really necessary to make a bunch of posters feel bad about their posts? I don't think it was. I think it was mean-spirited and insulting. If the complaint itself had been polite, sensitive and non-judgmental, then I wouldn't have responded. What can I say? Hypocrisy irritates me.

I feel your pain too.

Rethinking this statement, which I admit was very judgmental.
Hah. My own hypocrisy irritates me too. ;P

Ha! I can't believe I didn't google for that. Interesting. We are observing sleepy babies!

I finally got a chance to go look at the link. -

Cues are ways your baby is telling you what he or she wants.  Many of these cues are nonverbal but may lead to crying when not attended to.  
Yup.

See:  Babies can best follow faces and objects with their eyes and head at a distance of eight-12 inches away.  They respond to contrasting colors and human faces.

Funny.  I keep seeing posts that people are being told that's unusual.

Ps.

Drowsy:

In this state, your baby has smooth body movements and mild startles.  The eyes may open and close and appear heavy lidded, dull, and glazed.  Before interacting, wait to see if your baby will stay asleep or wake up.  To wake up your baby in this drowsy period, give your baby something to see or hear.

You forgot the word Word Heading Drowsy.   It helps when reading for context.  It doesn't say ND kids have glazed eyes.  It says drowsy kids have droopy glazed eyes.  My kids eyes get like that if they're exhausted or sick.  Which leads back to the comment that ND kids look sleepy all the time.  I guess I just don't see it.  Are you talking about kids you know or strangers at the market?

I'm adding "handbag kid" to my collection, along with, "potted plant kid".  A potted plant baby is the opposite of how mine was, who my grandmother nicknamed "Vel" which was short for Velcro.


 I've got my own judgemental-ness about other people's kids.  I used to think they were very skillfully faking it that they were incapable, but that was when I was a kid.  I don't think about the kids now.  That same thought happens about other adults now, even though I really know they're not faking that they can't do stuff, I still get the feeling they're faking it.

If I offended unjustly it was not mean-spiritedly.  I really do find life in general that funny.  

Aaaaand...it isn't mean-spirited and insulting to say that anyone with a decent vocabulary wouldn't have been offended? That is polite and sensitive? Allrighty then.

oops, didn't see this post. I like rethinking things--it is good modeling for the little ones.

Thank you. I was about to add this clarification.

IMO, the original out-of-context quote supports the perspective that some of the messages in this thread have been disingenuous. The world is full of out-of-context quotes being used to imply meanings that differ from what was originally intended. Do we really want this here? I know that people make mistakes. But still.

I pm'd you, but it's late so you're probably gone. For some reason this quote of what Annette says has my name at the top of it. Her names on the box, but my name's inside it so it looks like I said it.

Sorry about that--I need to make myself figure out this quote thing and just can't seem to get it right. I will edit for clarity.

Pulling out my dictionary (...again, sigh):

a·lert   
adjective
1.fully aware and attentive; ,wide-awake; keen: an alert mind

Can any of us think of antonyms for wide-awake?

So if the gifted literature is clear that gifted babies are often more alert, then what are more typical babies doing? Maybe looking sleepy? Maybe with that glazed eye look we all get when we are sleepy?

I suppose if you are looking to be offended, you will be, no matter what I say.
No matter what the dictionary says!

Be offended! Yippee for you! What a wonderful attitude to have in life.
Good luck with that.

Read the pm anyway because I told you something else too.

I love that you continue to assume the worst about people.
Just lovely of you.

All my points continue to fly right over your head.

But no, keep trying to prove your point that secretly, in some sneaky disingenuous way, I was saying something nasty or meant to be, or really--that was my intention. Because you definitely know my inner thoughts better than I do (and everyone else on this thread as well). lol.

hu·mil·i·ty noun \hyü-ˈmi-lə-tē, yü-\
Definition of HUMILITY
: the quality or state of being humble
See humility defined for English-language learners »
See humility defined for kids »
Related to HUMILITY
Synonyms: demureness, down-to-earthness, humbleness, lowliness, meekness, modesty
Antonyms: arrogance, assumption, bumptiousness, conceit, egoism, egotism, haughtiness, hauteur, huffiness, imperiousness, loftiness, lordliness, peremptoriness, pomposity, pompousness, presumptuousness, pretense (or pretence), pretension, pretentiousness, pride, pridefulness, superciliousness, superiority, toploftiness

Definition of HUMBLE
1: not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive
2: reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission
And just for fun to reference a previous thread on leadership, what does Humility-Leadership Training have to do with leadership?

"Humility is all about maintaining our pride about who we are, about our achievements, about our worth – but without arrogance – it is the antithesis of hubris, that excessive, arrogant pride which often leads to the derailment of some corporate heroes, as it does with the downfall of the tragic hero in Greek drama. It's about a quiet confidence without the need for a meretricious selling of our wares. It's about being content to let others discover the layers of our talents without having to boast about them. It's a lack of arrogance, not a lack of aggressiveness in the pursuit of achievement."

deacongirl,

Now that it's difficult to defeat my logic, you are resorting to character attacks.
That's lovely. What a friendly debate this is!

Originally I said:
I just googled, "non-gifted kids are sluggish".  No scholarly results came up to cite.  But a search for "gifted babies are more alert" produced tons of websites.  Isn't that the same thing?  
...
I just thought it was interesting that tons of websites say "gifted babies are more alert" but none of them say "non-gifted babies are sluggish".  Omg!  Now if anyone googles those words they'll end up at this thread.  Me and my big mouthed fingers.
End Quote
(you can quote yourself, and you can talk to yourself, but if u answer yourself you got problems.(

The point I was making is there's tons of articles on  major websites and a bunch of little websites saying, gifted babies are more alert.  None of them have said the words, "normal babies are more sluggish.". I wonder why that is.  Are they all just chicken?  

Or does that one little sentence lack the nuance to really describe what you're seeing.  By itself the observation seems offensive.  I'm sure the observation wasn't made in a vacuum.  Maybe you can elaborate to provide what context you have noticed it in.  Unless it only exists in your head as an idea that grew out of the "gifted babies are more alert" thought.  


Back on topic.  When I say, "what's the context you're seeing zombie babies in?" I mainly want to know if you think that about babies that you actually spend time with, or only babies you've seen in passing around town?  

I've seen something that I might feel like calling glazed eyed zombie kids. Our library only does story time twice a week for a couple of weeks in the summer.  The kids listen to the story.  When the lady asks questions they are so slow to answer and the answers are a few words, not a few sentences.  And it's at most 2-3 kids answering.   Um., that's not zombie kids.  There's a word for that we call, "disengaged". ND kids get it too.  "Engaged" & "Disengaged" works on everybody.  Of course, I'm comparing it to my childhood memories of kids in Sunday School were the teachers were engaging and the kids were better trained to be engaged.  
Another context is sleepy kids or sick kids in public.  You don't know.

If you still think you've seen something observable beyond sleepiness or disengagement or sickness that looks "glazed or sleepy". Then you're going to have to do a better job of describing what you're thinking about.  Provide context beyond "I see a sleepy look on non-gifted kids".  Are you saying their senses seem dull?  How do you see that?  Also, how do you know they're not lost in thought?

http://twentytwowords.com/2011/03/1...e-if-youre-having-a-rational-discussion/

There's this flowchart on "having a discussion".  The first part had me stumped.  "can you envision anything that will change your mind on this topic".  

How can you change something that's never in a fixed position?  I was told talking to me was like watching twenty ping pong games going on at once.  I've settled down since then.  But why or how would I have to change my mind if I'm not stuck in a belief to start with.  

Well.  I don't have a belief about if gifted babies are alert or ND babies aren't alert.  I've got a lot of ideas.  I read that human babies are unique because if you rustle leaves near a baby deer he'll startle, but you can run a chainsaw next to a baby human and they'll continue nursing, as long as the mother doesn't act startled.
Of course that's not always true.  Like I said, I don't have beliefs.  I have thoughts.  So I don't know how to have a conversation if I can't change my mind if it was never made up to start with. 
 
Speaking of babies.. I hope mine's finally going to bed.  Her molar started breaking through and gave her two nights of pukey fevers.  Now it's taking a break, but she's got her days & nights mixed up.  There's more to come since they didn't break all the way through.  I've been dreading this.

My intention was not to win an "argument", but to understand other perspectives and to decrease all the negative and erroneous assumptions in this thread.

Clearly, I've failed in the later.
Perhaps a more humble approach would have helped. Who knows?

I've definitely gained some new perspectives, and debating helped to pass the time while I was overcoming the flu (almost over it).

I thank you all for the knowledge/wisdom you have passed on, and I'm sorry that I was unable to do the same.

I just want everyone here to know that I value all of the people and perspectives I've seen in this thread. You've all given me things to think about, and thinking about things is one of my very favorite things to do. It's kept the discussion here at the house interesting, too.

 
There was nothing I this world more interesting to my first child that nursing, if she had to let go of the boob to see it, not worth seeing, she did of course make her best effort to take the boob with her.

Child the third on the other hand, is nearly 2 and has pretty much always had trouble maintaining her latch, as an infant she was more interested in screaming and nowdays she's too busy telling me about all the things she can hear or is thinking... No need for a chainsaw, she can hear a feather drop in the next room and she needs to talk about it far more than she needs to nurse or to sleep.

She regularly has weird conversations with people about "seeing the doggy" they say "there's no dog" then I stop and listen and eventually pick out a dog barking blocks away and have to explain "there's no doggy here, that doggy you can hear is somewhere else", all the while getting weird looks from the third party who still hasn't picked the dog noise at all.

That is interesting. DD can't talk yet.. but she will hear a dog barking outside or hear a car pass outside on our not that busy street and she will make the sign for dog and car (while the window is closed, even). She also signs bird any time any kind of bird is making noise outside and she hears it while inside. One of the first times she signed dog, she was looking at us on the patio and her Signing Time DVD said "dog" way in the background and she signed it. I wondered if she has hearing issues, but there is no way if she does this.

And she definitely wasn't a baby that would nurse through a chainsaw lol

Wimp Lo: Ha! Face to foot style, how do you like it?
Chosen One: I'm sure on some planet your style is impressive, but your weak link is: this is Earth.
* * *
Wimp Lo: I'm bleeding, making me the victor!

- Kung Pow: Enter the Fist (2002)

Ditto. And no matter what sort of gentle poking I may do, I understand the sorts of pressures and frustrations that may lead to expressions such as we've seen in this thread, just as with the recent bragging thread. I think islandofapples in particular, as OP, has shown quite some class during the extended discussion, but others as well.

I do think things took an unfortunate turn in choice of language. Then we had a fun treat to different styles of internet argumentation techniques, some of which were honest and logically sound. In the end, I don't think less of anyone, and learned a fair bit.

?

!

ditto

Fault. Serve again.

Not sure it's wise to wade in, but I'm going to add a little self-awareness check.

Someone recently called my three month old "sleepy" with a subtext (in teh entire converstion) of "my (slightly older)kid is gifted and therefore sleeps less, wants to see more, etc." (all the usual steriotypes).

The implication was that she'd been asking the question "is this tiny baby going to be a peer for my child in a few years," and had decided "no" (now, the assembled children, from two up were making matching costumes from pipecleaners and feathers and dancing folk dances using foreign-language calls together, and a three year old was disciplined for taking appart the strollers, so...)

I was a little too confused to be offended, because my three-mont-old takes two two hour naps and sleeps 10 hrs at night, a pattern more typical of 6 month olds. He sleeps amazingly well compaired to my older son, but, well, he does not sleep "a lot."

I wonder if some of us are *more* sensitive to this stuff because we are affraid of seeming like "that" parent? I would be lying to say I haven't found other kids "sleepy" and we have used the word "lumpish" at home, which is certainbly not polite, but I think a lot of people have this perception. Perception, by definition, is subjective. DS3months (today ;), who reaches up when told he'll be picked up, comando-crawls, and walks with support was percieved as lumpish by "one of us."

What we percieve is *not* the truth. If we're talking about perceptions, then we're talking about *ourselves* not other-people's-babies. And talking about ourselves is a good way to figure out why we see/do what we do. Eh?

-Mich

Eek, I'm the ball-boy

Agree with the "walking on eggshells". I am so tired of doing it day in and day out around other parents. Trying to minimize my kids accomplishments/knowledge to not offend someone else. When is it EVER about us parenting gifted kids?? On this board...I had hoped...

That being said I guess we should have been sticking with "my child seemed more alert" and not stated the obvious, being.. If my child is more alert who are they more alert THAN....

I am just very curious to know if there is such a thing as a discussion board for athletic, physically advanced kids would it be just as offensive to say: "My child is just very athletic and coordinated compared to other kids that seem uncoordinated". It just seems anytime it has to do with being advanced physically it is OK, but God forbid we ever talk about smarts..

I certainly would NOT be offended being on a athletic message board reading a statement like that. One would assume in a thread named "Your perception of other kids athletic abilities" the comments would be about just that.

I also would never be on a message board like that because both my sons fall into the clumsy category. And if someone stated that, I couldn't do anything but agree. YES, my kids are uncoordinated and clumsy compared to most other kids their age. It is a fact!

All kids are gifts, all kids have something that makes them special. My initial comment of other kids was not to offend. I am SURE most of those kids I talked about will beat my kids in sports ANY DAY.

So I'm sitting here cooking potatoes in the microwave. Sometimes, when I cook them for a long time (in their skin), they get kind of crispy.

I'm having a hard time optimizing it so that they don't burn, but get as crispy as possible. I don't think there's a good solution to this problem. I just have to accept that they will only ever get a little crispy on their ends before they start burning.

100% ditto...

What a coincidence, I'm making potatoes right now too! Only I decided to use the oven instead of the microwave. LOL

Use smaller potatoes, not the big baking potatoes. When I was in college, about half the time my lunch would be a few microwaved-until-crispy potatoes, dipped in a mixture of butter / salt / pepper. Mmmmm. Anyhow, the smaller the potato, the better they seemed to come out without burning.

OK. I found some smaller potatoes. And some oranges. So, I held off on eating the potatoes and ate the oranges instead.

Now I'm not quite as hungry as I was before I ate the oranges.

Beyond way off-topic.  There's a snark-fest forum called "Trolls With Wooden Spoons" that's a spin-off of what used to be Mothering dot Commune.  I've looked at TWS maybe 3 times.  Once when it was too small to check often, once when it came up in a MDC thread.  And now, because this thread has so many weird spots, just to see if it showed up.  It's not there yet.  However, they mocked Mr. W for being accelerated in preschool.  And they mocked Davidson Gifted Discussion Forum for having a thread about Gifted Hygine Issues.  Obviously, they're just having a little fun.  


http://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64423
"Kid does not like to shower? Hates to clean up after himself?  GYFTED!"

http://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61675

"Gyfted school. Duh."


Came off of this sub forum called "other boards".
http://trollswithwoodenspoons.com/viewforum.php?f=5

You have to actually make an account there to read the board.  But I just wanted you to know a little more about the variety of lurkers reading your posts here.  Being online is a little like being on a Reality TV show. 

It's not to say we should walk on eggshells for them.  Just saying whatever you say really does get spread around the www.

Michaela - of my older children. My "good" sleeper is the one with the DYS iq.

Ugh. They say some really hateful stuff over there. I've seen it. They are like a little nasty clique of jealous / insecure women. I would avoid them like the plague in real life.

There is another one with a bunch of women who think children are disgusting and call moms "moos" and say really revolting things. They take threads from mothering and other places. I've seen them make fun of a mom who had a miscarriage. Truly nasty and I don't read it. I feel so sorry for them.

I don't read it either.  I read here, twtm, fb, my emails, occasionally The Stir, and a whole load of Amazon Reviews.  Just saying I was shocked to read Mr. W being mocked.  I've never seen anything mockworthy posted by that family.  And the hygiene was a reminder that they're not real strict here about it only being gifted 24/7.  
I meant for it to be a reminder that the forums are public.  Sadly, it proved  the other issue of, "why do they get to relax and post about other peoples flaws, and that other article "I'm annoyed by gifted people", or whatever.   Why do they get to say that, yet we shouldn't post that other people's babies are slow?  Feels like the old, "you should know better because you're smarter than they are.  We expect more out of you".  Right?!  Ouch, those two sentences sting.  

But do we want the right to be crude in our discussions of other groups of people, like them?  I like that this forum has a lot of down to earth, sensible people with a lot of  down to earth ways to implement and apply them.  

And now iM starting to feel a little guilty because I'm all talk, talk, talk -and I might have just de-railed an entire thread, which nice regular posters wanted to have and would have been interesting to read, I'm sure.  I might have just waited and watched and threw out a story of my own and been part of a conversation instead.  Sometimes, I'm "too smart for my own good".  Which is a nice way of saying I have a big mouth and I know it all.  Darn.
My apologies to 1111 & Annette. I over-reacted.
I'm having a Dabrowski's moment.

Do we want to be crude... and shouldn't we "know better"?

I was thinking about this, actually. Did you see the big debate we just had on this thread about whether or not we were being insensitive? That doesn't even happen on other forums!!! That right there says a lot about this forum and how "crude" we are even willing to be. We occasionally throw out observations that might hurt feelings or sound judgmental, but then we go and question whether it was really nice or right or not.

So, I'm not really worried about it. We're human and just because we are "smart enough to know better", doesn't mean we always have to be perfectly polite and PC. I also don't expect myself to be perfectly mature 100% of the time. Cuz I'm not. And I don't know any other adults that are perfect, either, so I forgive myself for it.

I think it is great that we try to hold ourselves to high standards, though. We should probably recognize that our standards are often higher (perfectionism) than the standards other people are trying to live up to, though, and so we might give ourselves a break, you know?

I thought the potato cooking assistance was particularly nice and not crude or judgmental at all.

Without my feelings being hurt, I now understand the problem I was having with what I now hope to be my formerly partially-crisped, soon to be totally-crisped potatoes.

Oh yeah, and I love the trivia tidbits that come out of the blue around here but totally solve a random little mystery.

You know Jon there is an awesome book on the science of cooking (title of which completely escapes me, making this post fairly useless). It delves quite deeply into the perfect way to cook a potatoe and WHY. WHY to par boil your roast potatoes. WHY they must be cooked above a certain temperature. Etc... My roast potatoes are much better for a random dinner party conversation with the owner of said book.

I definitely like hanging out out in a place where the standards are high. I flicked through Trolls with Wooden Spoons just now and had to quit after a few minutes because I 1) felt my brain starting to harden and 2) don't want to take another shower today. Yes, it's that bad.


Another thing I really like about this forum is that most of us are pretty opinionated, and that's okay. Most places don't tolerate the breadth of opinionation (?) that we take for granted.

Pretty sure it is Cooks Illustrated? something like that--my brother gave it to me for Christmas last year--I would check but it just got packed up in the moving boxes. I love the thing...

Thank you for being sensitive to the feelings of other children and teaching your child to consider those feelings. I am obviously particularly sensitive about this topic, and I know it is complicated, and I do appreciate your intentions. Yesterday my 8 yo ds was very sad because he said someone at school called him stupid and dd4 asked what stupid meant. I had to think for a long time before opening my mouth, because the fact is my son is not ND, and it takes him way longer to learn all of the things that even those at the median take for granted. But if the rest of the world tried as hard as he does, and didn't give up, and kept the loving and positive attitude he does in the face of some extremely frustrating circumstances, it would certainly be a better place. And, again, yes, I very clearly remember being frustrated with the slow pace of learning in my schooling.

It is a golden teachable moment to encounter someone who is different, and possibly less able in certain respects. We have seen in our school that kids who are educated about all kinds of human differences can respond with tremendous empathy and inclusiveness; they are more patient with their peers because they can understand and empathize. This is good for everyone.

Disdain of others, by contrast, is usually hurtful. I can't see the point of it.

DeeDee

Oh, I get this! I am having a frustrating morning because my house is trashed and my efforts at catching up are getting nowhere. A conversation I had a while ago with a 'friend' keeps playing in my head where she basically accused me of being a slob. I refrained from pointing out to her that she put her (one) child in front of the TV for 3 hours everyday so she could do her housework, and that even if I was WILLING to do that, my children would have dismantled the room if I'd left them there three hours with only TV. If I'd had three uninterupted hours each day MY house would have looked heaps better too.

I am tired tired tired TIRED of fighting with intense driven children, even though I adore them and I know those traits will help them when they are adults. I would love just occationally to say "Tea's ready please wash your hands" and they wash thier hands and come to the table without one or the other debating if they REALLY need to wash their hands, the relative cleanliness of said hand, if they REALLY need to eat, if the food is acceptable, WHY they need vegetables, what specific vitamins broccoli has in it.....

I have a nephew with Down syndrome. I don't get frustrated with him because of his problems; he is what he is. I also don't consider him to be less of a human being. When he dies, as he will sooner than most of his age peers, the universe of his thoughts and emotions will be extinguished, a terrible thing and no less sad than my own death.

I can no more join in putting down roughly average children than I can my nephew. I don't think of them as lesser beings-- I just don't ever "go there" by nature. Maybe that's the difference. I felt this way before my nephew, and before my son. I've always seen ordinary people as capable of great things, but it's really not about ability for me.

So, for what it's worth, I am not eager to take offense on this sort of issue; I really took genuine offense at some of the comments in this thread, though not at the people making them. (From my phone)

I couldn't agree more (as many of my previous posts state).

First day out-of-the house after a nasty bout of flu. I'm feeling much better and I'm enjoying more head clarity. ~sigh~

deacongirl, and others,
I'm truly sorry for being harsh in my arguments with you.

Clearly, I was using a sledge hammer to get my points across (and not just with you). It was both ineffectual and insensitive. There is some hypocrisy in this which I find kind of funny given my arguments. But you know, I like to practice what I preach--turning my critical eye on myself. lol.

Anyhow...
I blame flu-derived grumpiness + the frustration you feel in a conversation when both people are talking, but only one person is listening.

Being gentle when frustrated and grumpy is something I do need to work on.

What you said here is very true:

"NO one is acting like it isn't OK--there a million posts doing just that, it is the purpose of this forum.

Every parent here is one extra chromosome (although I suppose that brings up a 'whole nother issue better not getting into here), one head injury, one car accident away from finding out what it is like to have a kid on the other end of the curve. And there are already other parents here who live it daily. Just because I happen to have a kid with special needs doesn't mean I don't need a place to discuss his two gifted sisters."

Being gifted or "ND" or learning disabled or whatever isn't under our control. It is pretty much just an "accident" of birth and it can be taken away in an instant. So acting very superior about giftedness really just shows arrogance and also ignorance (but I consider behavior like that to be like a mom who brags and acts like her child is too good for the others because he's gifted or whatever... if such a woman exists.)

There is also a spectrum, though. I don't think I felt very guilty thinking someone was slower or even "dumb" if they were a ND kid who treated me like crap all the time. (And I have to admit that as an adult I've had less than charitable thoughts about certain co-workers and managers...)

But I wouldn't be thinking mean thoughts about someone in special ed or someone struggling who never did a thing to me. And I've never had someone like that gang up on me in school.

None of this really has anything to do with whether babies look sleepy or glazed or not, though.

But I have heard other parents actively encourage their children to negatively judge other kids or not treat them nicely! I remember going over a friends home and the parents were basically mocking me and trying to get me to dance to some rock music since I took dance classes and their own daughter didn't. They were being jealous and mean-spirited. I was like 6 years old.

My sister and I told the parents of some girls who were throwing rocks at us or spitting on us or something at a park about what their kids were doing and they just laughed. I remember those girls being a part of the hateful popular crowd as they grew older.

On one hand, I did hear my mom judge others and she wouldn't always let me play with kids if she thought they were from bad homes...but on the other hand she ALWAYS yelled at us if we put down another kid for being poor or for any other reason because she grew up as that kid.

I was watching a rerun of 'The Big Bang Theory' this evening and felt the need to share because it made me lol at the timing.

Mrs. Cooper: "I've been telling you since you were four years old! It's okay to be smarter than everyone else, but you can't go around pointing it out!"
Sheldon Cooper: "Why?"
Mrs. Cooper: "Because other people don't like it!"

Teenage snark from a niece,
"The moment someone tells you you're not good enough is the moment you know you're better than them."

Apology accepted. I have lots of things I am working on !

As we are getting ready for my son's transition to a new school, (IEP mtg. on Monday) I found myself cringing at the terminology when he is referred to as "high-functioning". I know we (esp. educators) need a way to talk about these things...but the high-functioning/low-functioning wording seems so dehumanizing to me. I do think there are ways to respectfully have these conversations. I have learned that there are challenges getting the appropriate education for all of my kids, but I have found that in many areas my expectations of what those challenges would be were way off.

I have to say that it was way more frustrating, for example, teaching dd11 to ride a bike than teaching her little brother with Down syndrome. I very rarely get frustrated with him, because, as I said previously, I don't think it is possible to overstate the effort and perseverance he puts forth every day, and usually with a smile.

Your second paragraph was beautiful--I had the same feelings prior to becoming to a parent, but still didn't expect to experience it firsthand--and now am incredibly thankful for the experience of parenting all of them.

This sums up my high school experience, particularly with my father.

The results of OLSAT testing for all third graders just came out in our district, to determine who gets into the G/T program for next year. My son rocked it with 99th% on it. We haven't told a soul- there have been a spate of articles in our local newspaper how their child didn't get in, it isn't fair, all kids should stay in the same classroom together. Etc.
Earlier in the third grade year, the teacher apparently went over what sounds the letters made, because some of the kids needed that information! I don't think people realize how different gifted children can be from the norm.

Love it!

lucounu, deacongirl,

I have a friend whose boy has severe autism and apraxia. He is the opposite of high-functioning. Whenever I hear her talk wistfully about him *maybe someday* moving to the high functioning program (or even the mid-functioning program) I get tears in my eyes.

The surprising thing is that she knows all about my son (from a mutual friend), and she talks about him without the least jealousy or pain. She makes me feel OK that my son is who he is and she does so in a way that many mothers of typically-developing children don't.

I can't help but feel horrible around her, but I like to talk about the ways her child is amazing, and you know it's really not difficult to find those.



I was raised differently. My parents subscribed to Howard Gardners theory of the Intelligences, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences).

My brother has dyslexia and was surrounded by gifted siblings. Everything was more difficult for him. Maybe to compensate, and maybe because my parents truly didn't believe they were better than anyone else, we were raised to not notice or make a big deal out of our giftedness. Yes, we were in the programs, but no, my parents never talked about it with anyone, not even us. I didn't even realize my dad was PG until my son was born and he told me how he was tested when he was young. It never occurred to him that this was important.

They like to focus on the things that made every person unique. They don't spend time comparing or judging others, or at least, not in my hearing. My brother with dyslexia loved planes. My parents focused on that, and not how difficult school was for him. He is now a commercial pilot, and maybe the confidence to achieve that came from never feeling like he was less.

Because you know, he isn't.

My parents would have washed my mouth out with soap for saying this.

Their belief would be, "the moment you think you are better than someone else is the moment you definitely aren't." But they are *extremely* humble and think it's pointless to play these kinds of games.

deacongirl,

Your humility poke was apt!

My parents and brother, although all being gifted, squirm when I bring up this forum or some book I read on giftedness. They may have raised gifted children, but talking about it in depth makes them uncomfortable (it's an unfair thing, isn't it?)

I can't claim the humility they have, although I do try.

I will continue to defend the point that I, and many of the posters on this thread were not being intentionally insensitive, but I do so, knowing full well, that my family would never have spoken that comment even amongst themselves.

Sometimes, I like not being censored (even if the reasons are valid).

As Iucounu says, continuing on a course of action with known consequences = intent to cause those consequences.

Could we please, please just let this thread DIE?

That would be DD5mo. Nursing is _always_ secondary to seeing what's going on around.

At 1 day old, she passed her hearing test in less than 2 mins. Both of her ears passed at the same time, and the technician mentioned most newborns could do that in 20 mins. At that time, I knew I was in trouble.

I'm a bit late on this, but I think this thread has run its course, so I'm locking it. Please try to stay on topic, as I will have to delete posts which veer off the original point of the thread.

Please send me a private message if you have any questions or comments.