Hello, all. I'm a longtime lurker, first time poster.
We are Americans living in Belgium, here on an expat assignment for a private company. My son goes to an international school here, just as he has since Preschool. He attended Preschool-Kindergarden-Grade 1 in Krakow, Poland; he attended Grade 2 here last year, and will start Grade 3 here in August.
We will return to the US permanently in July, 2012; that Fall will be his first time attending American schools.
He was recently tested, at both the teacher's and my suggestion. Our reasons for testing were very different.
Long story, for another time.
I only have a verbal overview of the Wisc IV testing the psychologist perfromed, so far. And I do not understand it all yet, but suspect there is a problem here.
And I have no idea what the results of the Connors are/will be; I did not want to do that test when it was explained to me what it is for. The teacher suggested and specifically asked for it, but did not tell me wht it was then. I only found out whent he sychologist explained it. I went ahead only on the recommend of the psychologist, who said it is part of her standard battery of tests.
The psychologist who tested him gave me 4 composite numbers, for the Wisc IV. Then said she would have us come back in for a follow up, where she goes over everything. Then she will put it all in writing, and send that written report to us, and his school.
But that follow up meeting is weeks away, and I would like to figure some of this out now.
My questions/concerns: These numbers seem very far apart. From reading online, that is NOT normal.
Does this disparity mean something bad for our son? Is this what my teacher friend w/ a Masters in Gifted and Talented Ed calls a possible Twice Exceptional result?
Does my child have a significant learning deficit? Did something go wrong during the testing? Will we need to retest, w/this or another test?
What do I need to know/what are some good questions and comments I need to prepare, for when we meet up with the psychologist to go over all of this? What sites or links can you sggest, for me to look into this further?
As we live in a Dutch/French speaking country, and I speak/read neither language, I found nothing at the library I could use to help me, and school is now closed, so I cannot consult with anyone there.
This whole experience has been very confusing for me.
Thanks in advance for any and all help anybody can provide to us.
Your son's results look quite abit like my son's results, and my son is twice exceptional. You need to get details on the subtests for each of the indices so you can see where the problems lie. There is an excellent resource on testing called Hoagies Gifted. The URL is http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/testing.htm
It has an excellent section on twice exceptional as well.
My DD has numbers along these lines with the WISC IV, although her working memory is a little lower and her processing speed a little higher. My DD is 2E. These areas together affect the ability to retrieve and manipulate information that has been learned (as well as storing it properly in the brain) and then using that information. This impacts her abiilty to do things like math facts quickly. She can process the information but it takes more time to get there and she doesn't always retain it from one day to the next. So she may have learned a math concept but struggles to have automaticity with the actual math facts used in the problem.
It would be helpful to understand if you DS's strength is auditory or visual memory and attention, to see how that might impact accomodations. You might also want to ask if the psychologist thinks that something like perfectionism might have impacted your DS's scores. Is your child bilingual? Sometimes that can also impact processing as one transfers material from one language to another. You would want look at what accomodations they are making for a classroom setting, such as more time to complete tests.
For my DD her GAI on the WISC is more in line with her scores on the Stanford-Binet, which doesn't have as many timed areas and lets her GT show more than the WISC so that might be a future option with testing. This is still a new road for us so I hope you find some of this helpful.
Later when I have more time I'll post an article I have somewhere that cautions against "profile analysis" or diagnosing someone with anything based upon the way subtests line up on the WISC or other IQ tests. That said, if you see deficits in real life, I certainly wouldn't rule out 2e.
I have one child, dd12, whose processing speed was low average on the WISC and whose other three indices were gifted - highly gifted. She is not really 2e although she has some sensory issues. My other dd10 is 2e with ADD and possibly dyslexia. Her profile on the WISC looks a lot like your ds's.
In general, I'd say that wildly divergent #s aren't typical, but they are much more typical for a gifted child, 2e or not, than for a neurotypical average child. High highs and average lows don't necessarily mean 2e, but they do mean something about roadblocks for that child.
Do ask your tester to calculate GAI - from my notes that score, which reflect a 'overall IQ without the limits from WM and PS' will be over 146 - and with supporting Achievement scores would qualify your son to be part of the Davidson Young Scholars Program. See http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngscholars/ for more detail.
That means as far as 'thinking power' goes, your child is not 'just' gifted, but a standard deviation more unusually gifted than kids who just qualify as gifted. That might suprise you or be exactly what you expect, but what it means is that most teachers who have knowledge of 1000 students have seen maybe one other child with 'thinking power' like yours.
Then there are the Processing Speed and WM issues - they affect how able your child is to show that he has the 'thinking power' that he has. His scores are certianly high enough for an average child, but for your child they represent an inner discrepancy (if in fact the scores represent a good picture of what goes on for your child - they can be thrown off any number of ways)which can be frustrating to the child and misleading to the observer (teacher.)
Our psychologist told us that it was like having one leg shorter than the other. In this situation ( again assuming it's a true picture and not artifact) it's like having the leg of a shorter than average adult and the other leg like a basketball player!)
Hopefully achievement testing was also done to round out the picture - is that long leg more like a high school baskeball player, a college basketball player or an NBA basketball player?
click here for more articles -http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/ Smiles, Grinity
The Case Against Using Profile Analysis With Gifted/Learning Disabled Students Historically, there has been a strong and enduring belief in the existence of multiple and distinct intellectual abilities (Kehle, Clark, & Jenson, 1993). From Thurstone to Gardner, the theory of multiple intelligences has continued to influence intellectual assessment. In addition, the Wechsler IQ scales contain 10 to13 distinct subtests, undoubtedly influencing school psychologists� belief in the interpretability of distinct subtest profiles (Kehle et al.). The subtests on the Wechsler scales appear to measure divergent content, and most educators intuitively believe that students display unique patterns of strengths, weaknesses, and learning styles. Therefore, educators and psychologists often feel tempted to use the subtest scores to reveal a student�s unique pattern of cognitive strengths and weaknesses. Profile analysis refers to the practice of interpreting differences among subtests as evidence of differential and distinct pattern of cognitive functioning in a student. Many practitioners continue to interpret the profile of subtest scores, even in the face of overwhelming empirical research that cautions against such practice (Kavale & Forness, 1984; Kramer, Henning-Stout, Ulman, & Schellenberg, 1987; McDermott, Glutting, Jones, Watkins, & Kush, 1989; Sattler, 1992; Truscott, Narrett, & Smith, 1993). The arguments presented by Bray, Kehle, and Hintze (1998) against the use of profile analysis in psychoeducational diagnoses are also applied here as arguments against the diagnosis as gifted/learning disabled using similar procedures. They also suggest that profile analysis should not be employed because �individual subtests are not as reliable as deviation IQs and/or factor scores as indicated by their corresponding reliability and stability coefficients, standard error of measurement (SEm), and confidence intervals. . .� (p. 211). Further, as stated by Bray et al. (1998), even with the use of the most rigorous .01 level of significance to lower the probability of a Type I error, any statistically significant differences among subtests may be quite common occurrences in children�s patterns of scores, and consequently of little practical significance. For example, Bray et al. noted that �a difference of 11 points between the verbal and performance scales is significant at the .05 level for all ages, but it occurs in 40.5 percent of the standardization sample on the WISC III (Wechsler, 1991)� (p. 212). Also, Jensen (1992) argued that profile analysis uses ipsative scores and therefore removes generalized variance; consequently g is substantially diminished. According to Watkins and Kush (1994), the use of ipsative score analysis is simply an inappropriate method to interpret test results. Although the full-scale IQ score is remarkably stable, there is variability in the profile as a result of the lower reliabilities of the individual subtests. Consequently, a particular profile does not represent a particular disorder such as a learning disability (Truscott et al., 1993;Watkins & Kush, 1994). Using profile analysis to identify students as both gifted and learning disabled can be especially problematic. There is evidence to suggest that the scaled score range among subtests increases as the full-scale IQ score increases (Patchett & Stansfield, 1992) and that subtest scatter increases with as the value of the highest subtest score rises (Schinka, Vanderploeg, & Curtiss, 1997). If these findings are true, then intellectually gifted children would display more atypical and scattered profiles than other students. Therefore, profile analysis would capitalize on chance variability, and would be especially inappropriate for students of superior ability. Waldron and Saphire (1990) found that both gifted students and gifted/learning disabled students showed strengths in Gifted/Learning Disabled 407 the similarities subtest and deficits in digit span. They also noted that neither examining verbal/ performance discrepancies nor rank ordering the WISC-R subtests provided an effective method of identifying or documenting the existence of a learning disability. Therefore, there appears to be even greater evidence to refute the use of profile analysis with gifted or gifted/LD students than there is for the general school population.
Of course, the WISC technical report #3 does profile analysis of its own:
Thank you everyone, for all the information and advice!
He is 8, going into Grade 3. Foreign language is required in all American international schools in Europe, from Grade K on up, but he cannot speak any of the ones he's studied (different ones each year) fluently. My husband and I are basically monolingual, and only English is spoken in our home.
The tester's 1st language was French, then German, then English--though she also speaks Dutch. Her accent was non-existent in English (she studied in England and elsewhere, not here). She was fluent on the phone and via email, as well--which was the deal breaker, for me. I would not have let her test him, if I thought she and he would not be able to understand each other.
As far as test environment, he may have displayed "normal" behaviors (for him), ie: perfectionism and hesitating if he thinks he might get something wrong; dawdling or indifference when things bore him; plowing thru things which he knows well, without regard to legibility, etc.
Oddly, his cursive writing is beautiful, but he labors over printing. He said he prefers cursive, ie: it's easier and faster for him. Does that matter, in re: the testing?
I will ask her about all that when we go back.
Looking at the info online so far, provided to me by you and my teacher friend back home, I guess my next questions are:
What other tests should I ask for, if retesting is desired or suggested? If I suggest retesting, not her, is that offensive to the tester? What if she says no?
I want to avoid, at all costs, being seen as difficult, interfering, or intrusive in this situation. I do not want anything I do to impact how my child is treated, or affect the level, quality and access to help, if offered now, or received later.
How do we delve deeper into the possible deficits revealed by this test--if in fact the test is accurate, and they are deficits?
What tests would help my son best, with that?
How do we address the possible ambiguity/unreliability of this particular test, with his school?
We had to pay $1300 to have him tested here to start with. To do additional testing may cost more. And none of it is apprently covered by insurance here or back home, ie: major medical insurance we pay for here (called DKV) and in the US (Select Blue, by Highmark, Blue Cross/Blue Shield).
I want him to be challenged as much as he can be, and also have any weaknesses addressed. And above all, I want him to be happy in school, and to stay that way. I often see him being either thrilled to death, or sad beyond sadness, over his school experiences, and I want him to have a more even, smooth experience than that.
BTW, he LOVED the testing, it didn't scare or upset him at all. On the night of the first test day, he said "I can't wait to go back and spend time with her. She said I get to have more fun tomorrow! Maybe there'll even be math!"
So if retesting is the issue, we can do it. It doesn't seem to have hurt him, and if it helps him in the end, I'm willing if he is.
I just need to save some money up to be able to do that! And I want to be sure to get the best, most reliable tests for my money that I can.
School starts August 24th, so I won't be able to retest prior that that, in any case.
I think it is worth noting that the discrepancy here is in factor scores, (we aren't looking at an isolated low subtest) so, depending on how the test administration went, I would feel more comfortable looking at these scores and thinking that they might give some real information about possible "bottlenecks" that might make it more difficult for your child to express his gifts.
At a minimum, you should probably ask your tester to calculate and include the GAI in her report and indicate, in accordance with the test publisher's guidelines, that it, not the FSIQ, should be used as the better measure of his true intellectual abilities.
You have noted your child has difficulties with printing - the processing speed subtests include some motor output items that require rapid visual scanning, so if fine motor or visual-motor coordination is an issue, it will often show up as low scores here. It may be worth asking the tester for a referral for an OT evaluation just to rule out any problems, based on the combination of low processing scores and printing difficulties.
If this were my kiddo, I'd ask for additional testing that looked more closely at these two areas to rule out any hidden issues. Working memory problems, for example, usually show up as an issue in everyday life when you encounter situations where you have to hold and retrieve several pieces of unrelated and non-cued or non-meaningful information in your head simultaneously in order to accomplish your tasks. This can look like carelessness, inattention, or boredom. Differentiating between all of these possibilities is important so you can use the right interventions.
We signed him up for an OT eval when school starts, because his former teacher mentioned two different times that said she feels he has a weak pencil grip and also is too slow at forming his letters when printing.
I thought OT for that one issue was overkill, but told the school that after this testing was complete, if the psych also concurred, I'd be happy to follow her recommend to do it.
The psych, when she got the referral from the teacher, mentioned that to us; I told her if she recommended it, I would schedule it when sschool started. She seemed ok with our doing it when school started.
I hope the OT eval, when it does take place, is helpful to him.
Not sure what else her report/full info and review will tell us, or how we'll proceed from there.
Maybe the Connors survey she also did, plus one other test I do not yet know the name for, and its info, will help us, as well.
I'm anxious to know what is going on, and to know reliably/accurately the best thing we can do to help him.
I hate the idea that he has had areas in which he has needed help, and we didn't catch that soon enough.
The teacher said he's often careless, forgetful, and unfocused. But she said she felt it was a question of him not WANTING to, rather than being UNABLE to. So we were attacking it from a discipline/punishment angle, versus a "let's find the problem and fix it" angle. Until now.
I wish I'd known everything I've learned here in the last 6 days, 6 months ago.
The teacher said he's often careless, forgetful, and unfocused. But she said she felt it was a question of him not WANTING to, rather than being UNABLE to. So we were attacking it from a discipline/punishment angle, versus a "let's find the problem and fix it" angle. Until now.
This is such a tough one. My son is 15, and he was in those shoes in 2nd grade and it still makes me shiver to think about those days.
Here's the deal, as I see it: That behavior can be a sign of ADHD-I (used to be called ADD) and it's not at all unusual for teachers to think that a kid with ADD just is lazy, or 'not trying enough.'
That behavior can be a sign of 'poor fit' classroom - if the student has already learned 90% of today's lesson, they would have to be exceptionally mature (or prone to turn their stress inward) not to have trouble focus on what the teacher thinks is important.
Then there is anxiety and/or depression. 'Normal' behavior for your son might be anxiety over not getting 'everything perfectly.' It's hard to know what one should be able to do when there is no real peer-group.
A child can have both problems and be really hard to figure out. My son thinks that 'all PG kids have ADHD or AS' - he's a bit black and white in his thinking - can you guess? But I think that there is a small germ of truth in his overgeneralization - Many, many kids who have GAI over 3 standard deviations above the mean are own their own developmental path, and things that are easy for most kids can be hard,or near impossible, for them while things that are easy for PGlets can be very challenging for most kids. The difference is that most school systems are geared for kids near the bulk of the bell curve, so the PGlet is alway the square peg in the round hole. Look up 'asynchronous development' for more on this idea.
The best I can figure out with my son, he did have ADHD-I and PG, but it was really hard to tell what was causing the in-classroom behavior problems until he got old enough that the edge of the asynchronous development was softened by time, and we made some educational interventions to get the classroom fit better.
We signed him up for an OT eval when school starts, because his former teacher mentioned two different times that said she feels he has a weak pencil grip and also is too slow at forming his letters when printing.
Could this be because he is trying his darndest to make his letters perfectly? My DS7 wrote slowly for a long time because he was trying to make his letters "the way they look in books" and, obviously, this was a painstaking task! Or, do you think that your DS has some other handwriting difficulty that might be improved with some extra practice and/or OT?
(In first grade, my DS realized the other kids were writing very messily and his writing devolved into a quick hurry of scribbles that allowed him to work quickly on a less-than-challenging assignment. Basically, he looked around and realized that handwriting was yet another thing that he didn't need to pay attention to. No more perfectionism there! :))
As far as handwriting goes, he scribbles and hurries to get as much down as possible. He is VERY verbal, and that often translates to lots and lots of writing from the many thoughts, some tangential, that he has all the time.
He keeps a little notebook with him, and he's always writing in it. Pictures & plotlines for a cartoon series he says he's working on; notes about what he ate that day, or who he played with, ideas for Lego towers to build in the future, etc.
A lot of it is nearly illegible to me, but there certainly is a lot of it. Spelling, for the most part, is not a problem.
He's a fantastic speller, and was getting extra spelling words each work, at an advanced level. He missed 1 word all year, of the 15 given to him every Friday, every week, for a year. He spelled it right, but the a looked like an o, so she marked him down and told him to write neater next time so there would be no confusion, when he explained. I agree with her decision.
He got pull-outs for advanced reading, writing, and for a book discussion group the librarian runs once a week for 5 kids from Grade 2. They'd all read the same book, then take turns leading a discussion of it. They each have a notebook for this, where they'd write details, quotes from characters, their thoughts, pictures of what they thought characters looked like "in real life", if they existed, etc.
he reads at a Grade 6+ level.
He is allowed lots of free-choice, self-led discovery and online work (Starfall, MathMasters, Fastt Mast) each day in his classroom--all assigned or allowed to him and maybe 2 others in his class (and those two others are his best friends), when they finish their in-class work on whatever subject.
He and several other Grade 2 kids wrote a newsletter about Space, the Universe, etc, which was published for his schoolmates (this was s pecial project he did with the school's director and 5 other kids).
He wrote and read a speech he gave for Jane Goodall when she was there, about her Roots and Shoots program, etc.
Everything was suggested by, or just set into motion by the school or his teacher, and I generally became aware thru my child when he would tell me, or thru the teacher, when we would meet up at school (I volunteered there, and sometimes in her classroom).
He generally does very well in school, and all his grades are at, or above, grade level expectations. I don't think it's thinking, or thought processing that is the real problem for him. Or even writing.
He can write so clearly in cursive. And, if he writes slowly, his printing is great, too.
I wish he cared enough about math to try harder there--he is at grade level, but his teacher said she thinks if he would just try, he could be brilliant at it.
Not sure if it matters, but he was taught using Every Day Math at his last school, which I and lots of other parents loathed, and I am wondering if that could be part of the math issue.
As far as working memory in real life, yes he has issues there. But he can remember what his peds dr said to him in her office five years ago before we went over seas, word for word; and he notices when people get their hair cut, or they have lost weight, etc, even if they look the same to me when we run into them.
He also told me he remembers lying in his crib when he was about 2 at our old house, and looking out his bedroom window, and described very accurately to me what was there. Almost grass blade by grass blade. It was actually a bit eerie, to me.
He has always had issues with forgetting, being late, etc. He can be very disorganixed, but with other things so anal, it drives me nuts.
He dawdles and daydreams, a LOT. He is very imaginative, and creative. He talks non-stop. He hums and sings and wigles while he works.
He tries to direct the other children to do what he wants, and he thinks his way is best, in group settings with kids.
The reason we asked for a meeting with the teacher, and as a result of that meeting, for the testing (6 months ago), which we thought we had to do through school (a mistake; we didn't).
We asked because we felt he was bored a lot. He said so. And he was bringing home books the teacher gave him to read, that were way below his demonstrated level of ability--and then she admitted she told him he couldn't take certain books (Star Wars, Harry Potter, Percy Jakson, and others) out of the library when the kids had free choice or free reign to pick what they wanted. She also hates Halloween, and would not allow her kids to celebrate that in her class, or talk about it in her class back in October.
He was having issues with bullying (verbal and physical) w/two of the bigger kids in his class (not while in class, apparently, only on the playground), at the same time.
So in October, I emailed and asked if we could meet after school one day to discuss all the above.
We dealt only with the bullying then, and for several months and meetings thereafter. He was the victm, they were the aggressors, and one almost got kicked out of school over this, in the end. BTW, never allow agree to peer mediation between your child and their bully/ies. Those kids went back at him harder and more slyly than ever, after every stupid peer meeting they had.
But once another kid they trifled with ended up with stitches, things did get better for my son, because the fall out was, in the end, they finally believed my warnings that these 2 were trouble, and that someone was going to get hurt. Suddenly, they doubled the student volunteer monitors on the playground, and those volunteers got more training in HT recogmize bullying, etc.
We finally got to the testing issues and other things, in late April.
Her concerns then were that he dawdles, takes too long to write, or change his clothes for PE, or his shoes thrice daily, when they had to change to go in or out of the building (in Europe the kids wear slippers only in class/inside the school); that he talks too much/asks too many questions which she felt was disruptive; that he is not very good at "assimilating" in groups; that she thought he was not trying hard enough at math, etc.
We had him speak to the school's PhD psych and counselor about the bullying and the other issues, and some changes were made to his day/work to give him more free choice. And he was then allowed to choose his own books, anything he wanted, from the library, too.
ABut then, he was asked to write a manual for the psych which teaches other kids "like him", whatever that means, how to survive second Grade, which prompted my asking for another meeting w/the teacher and the psych, which eventually led to my being here, today.
The psych we saw 2 weeks ago for testing, was off-site and is not affiliated with this school.
So, this is the first time we've had an indication he has significant issues or deficits (if the tests actually in the end up saying he does).
My son may have ADD---not any H in any ADHD spectrum, though.
I am coming to the conclusion for many other reasons, though, they he may also be gifted.
He can write so clearly in cursive. And, if he writes slowly, his printing is great, too.
Sometimes kids with disorder of written expression (dysgraphia) get overlooked because they can *draw* beautifully, and given enough time, they "draw" their letters instead of "writing" them-- using, in effect, their art skills to compensate for a language-and-motor deficit.
Kids who do this tend to wear themselves out on writing tasks, so as they advance in school it becomes more of a problem.
Bookie, Whew! What a few years you have been through. Glad to hear that the bully issue was resolved. My son has been through very similar - except his 'peer mediation' was with adults - same result. And yes, it took another kid needing stiches before anything was done. Apparently the victim must be a totally innocent lamb before action will be taken - my DS would never stand for being seen as a lamb, it just doesn't sit well with him.
I think the only rule that works is not allowing the 2 children to be physically within 10 feet of each other.
This is the deal - you son is gifted - no doubt about it. He is over a standard deviation beyond the gifted cut off in most places. So that makes him very very unusually gifted. This explains why your school did everything 'right' with the pull outs and special projects and we was 'still bored.' Some schools can get very defensive about this - afterall - there approach works for 100% of their bright kids and 'X=very high number'%
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((please help -I have no idea if this number is even close - can someone refine this number?))
of their gifted kids, so 'what's wrong with your kid? We already tried what works for other bright kids and it didn't work?!? What do you want from us?'
Your school - on the other hand - seems to be genuinly open to trying to give your child 'more.' This explains the 'disruptive questions' -
He may also have ADD, maybe not, it is very hard to tell - he is surely a slow poke, as my son is. This isn't a crime, but it can get irritating on a day to day basis.
If I had it to do over, knowing what I know now, I would teach my son a simple version of 'Fire Breath' (Breath in quietly through mouth for a steady count of 6 - hold breath for 6, exhale for through nose for 6) repeat 3 times. After he got to where he could do it automatically, I would ask him to do it before the starting tasks that usually go slowly around the house, maybe making it scientific by measuring how long it takes to do each task with and without Fire Breath. I do this now to 'rev myself up' for things when I'm feeling pokey slow. It seems to me to work, and I have no idea if it does or doesn't, but it's comforting to feel as though I have a better controller to face situations that I have no control over anyway. If Fire breath doesn't help him, perhaps the idea will work as a model of 'what else might he like to try?'
anyway, I'm optimistic that your school will keep trying to find ways to feed his gifted side. Good luck!
DS#2 (12, 7th gr) has similar scores and is 2E. He was also diagnosed with central auditory processing disorder, which affects his written expression. We have worked *hard* on punctuation this summer, and he still doesn't have it mastered.
As a school psychologist myself, I'm not sure I'd recommend you ask for more testing from the psych. I agree with the commenter that these index scores are more reliable and valid than individual test scores.
Both of my g/t sons had poor motor output at 8, and by 6th grade had better handwriting than their peers. So in one sense, I'd work with him on it but see if he doesn't develop out of it.
The relative weakness in memory, combined with the motor, can be tough for kids. I worked for a charter school in which practically every kid had this profile. I could imagine their neighborhood schools' teachers saying, "He's just lazy," or even, "He's average," while their parents said, "I know my child is smart!".
I am less opposed than I used to be to looking at ADD. Certainly I benefit from my 3 cups of coffee per day! I have been giving DS#2 a gingko/ginseng combination the last year or two.
Let me end with a HUGE endorsement of the helpfulness of a good occupational therapist. Evaluation and intervention.
Well, we finally had "the meeting" w/the psychologist. Good and bad news.
He has ADD-type features/behaviors to a significant degree, but she feels that meds are not appropriate for him, and did not officially call it that.
She is calling his poor motor control/poor handwriting, etc and distractability issues and inability to control bodily movements by these names: dysgraphia & mild dyspraxia.
She says he definitely needs that OT eval, which we plan to do. School starts tomorrow, so once the first week is over and he is settled in, we will see.
He had several more tests than I thought; W-J, Wiatt, etc.
He is not considered gifted, or profoundly gifted, on all of them, apparerently---only on Wisc IV, and only if you use GAI and not the FISQ.
He just misses the cutoff on the other tests by our US school's hard 130 IQ definition. He's close 126 on one, and 124, but not where he is on the Wisc IV, using GAI, looking at 136 and 144.
I am not sure if he will qualifiy for G&T back home, when we return to the states next year. I am checking into that.
On one test, he "maxed" at 160 in two areas, but again, did so poorly on the processing/memory sections that she almost invalidated the test results (it was either the WJ or WIATT; still waiting for the written report, we only had the follow-up discussion/meeting).
She feels he is profoundly gifted in VCI/Perecptual reasoning areas, but needs significant help in other areas (memory, speed, executive function) to be able to display that ability.
She said he is one of the brightest kids she has ever tested, and one of the sweetest, and has never seen a kid that age so verbally articulate on so many different subjects. She said he had something to say about everything (we know! we know!), and what he said was making "deep connections" to the greater world.
But she did also say he needs to be reigned in re: verbal diarhhea/distractability/inappropriate behavior, and that he needs to be "conditioned properly" and given tools to do that. He needs to be taught a new script to use when frustrated and impatient, or bored, to self-govern and tone down his overexcitablilities, to help him do his best.
She thinks his anxiety level is sky-high, and suggested have in a psych consult to see where/what that is all about; she said regular psycholtherapy sessions w/ a counseling psychologist might be very helpful. She thinks that anxiety could lead to existential depression and we need to watch that carefully.
She thinks physical activity, more playdates, after school sports/activities, and the OT, plus our role-playing w/him, showing proper behavior to model, are some things we can do right now.
So far that's it. We will re-evaluate w/her in the Spring, before going home to the states or sooner, if school reports and/or performance warrant that.
Worried about him "missing" the hard 130 on several tests, but happy to know he is doing very well in some areas and, according to the school, with whom we discussed this, will still get what he needs/was already getting for advancements in his high ability areas while we're here; and maybe we can transfer that with us to the US, when we gome home next year.
We discovered there is a G&T parent group serving our part of PA (Adams Township, Butler County, Mars Area Schools), and I am going to proceed on the assumption that he is gifted, and try to join. The schools there, since we left the area almost 5 years ago, have created a G&T plan and implemented that to some degree, and we hope we can get him involved, based on his ability, testing and grades here.
Thanks to all who helped me thru this. Still trying to digest and make sense of it all.
Bookratt, I don't feel at all expert enough to advise you, but until someone else more knowledgable comes along - The WJ and WIAT tests are achievement tests NOT IQ tests, the WISC tests IQ / potential, achievement tests are to see what is being done with that potential. It is not surprising, with un-remediated issues like your sons that his achievement is not currently in line with his IQ.
My own DD has a huge yawning gap between her WMI and other scores (which are not as high as your sons). For us OT picked up a number of issues. We did a course of OT treatment, DD has swimming lessons, piano lessons and is on a very strict elimination diet. I feel like all of these things have really helped her a lot. But not enough.
After much recent reading I think that she almost certainly has ADHD inattentive type (ADD) and possibly also dyslexia and ideational dyspraxia. I really wish that when the ed psych who evaluated her 2 years ago said "At first she seemed to have classic inattentive ADHD, but then shew as able to concentrate on some things so she doesn't really" that we had not taken a huge sigh of relief, but instead had pursued it further and had a definite diagnosis from a developmental paed or similar. I feel like we could have done more for DD than we have.
Two friends have started their sons on medication for inattentive ADHD in the last month and both boys beg to be allowed to take the medication on the weekends because they themselves feel so much better. Both parents have cried when they talk about waiting so long because they thought not being diagnosed or labelled and not medicating was the right thing to do.
My point is not that your son does have ADD or ADHD, or the OT won't be enough. I just wish that someone had said to me 2yrs ago that once ADHD has been flagged as a possible issue it is really, really worth exploring fully with someone truly expert in teasing out what is going on developmentally with your child. And given that he is also gifted you will need to choose your professional carefully.
We won't ignore the possible ADD. We do want to get to the bottom of this, to help him.
We have been reading up on 2E kids; talked to his Peds from birth in the US--who incidentally would not refer him out for ADD testing last year. We will see her on our home visit at Christmas; will send his report to her as soon as we get the final copy from the psychD here.
We'll do the OT eval + set up an appt for counseling evaluation here, too. If those point to ADD + meds being needed, we'll try that. But only after seeing an MD here, which is required in this country to get meds for ADD. It will still help us go that route sooner than seeing his regular Peds in the US in December.
I don't want him to give up, or to fail. And I won't give up on him, either.
Just worried that no matter what we do, it might not make a difference when we get back home.
I don't think he can hit that 99 percentile in all areas, as needed for continued G&T here if we stay on next year; that standardized achievement testing is here in Grade 3, in just weeks.
And he hasn't met the hard 130 cutoff here via testing, so that excludes him from G&T if we move home, instead.
No vouchers in our PA county, Butler, back home. And we cannot afford to move to the next county over for several years yet, until the housing market fully rebounds.
Catholic schools in our county do not do G&T; they SAY they do, but I've looked into them. They do NOT. They do have smaller classes, but that's not G&T.
I just do not know what we are going to do. I was hoping if he could get G&T declared here, it would follow us and we could apply well in advance, to have a spot secured in our neighborhood school back home. ie: Live and work and send him to school in the area where we live.
No idea what we can do now. And may I just say, I just HATE HATE HATE all this pressure on us, and him, to hit these numbers to get what he needs?
Kids are NOT numbers.
And he is already performing well beyond high average expectations or better, in all school areas but math and some social things, now!
All I can do is do the evals, cross my fingers and hope for the best here. Get all G&T extras/enrichments Grade 3 will give him here.
Then hope 1 year of OT PT and/or counseling and meds here, will help him in time to retest for September G&T acceptance next year, in the US.
Or is there something else I can or should do, that I am not hearing/seeing/missing?
If your US-based schools are requiring 130 on achievement testing as well as ability testing for GT placement, you may be able to sidestep that by providing the psych report. It should include, at a minimum, formal diagnoses of dysgraphia and dyspraxia, and a statement that indicates that the FSIQ is invalid due to the discrepant WMI and PSI, and that the GAI should be used as the more accurate estimate of his intellectual functioning, and a statement that his significantly discrepant and relatively poor performance on the achievement testing is a reflection of his impairments in motor output and attention or working memory.
Here in the states, your child would certainly meet the criteria for a 504 plan, if not an IEP, and pointing out that the paper and pencil testing is not truly accessible to your child without accommodations, as it is your child's disabilities that interfere with his output on this testing, should be one way to get him the services that he will need. He cannot, in theory, at least, be denied access to gifted programming on the basis of his disabilities, and the GT program would be required to allow him to have whatever reasonable accommodations are necessary for him to have equal access to the program, such as a keyboard and extended time on tests.
For more on US law regarding the education of children with disabilities, check out Wright's Law .
If your US-based schools are requiring 130 on achievement testing as well as ability testing for GT placement, you may be able to sidestep that by providing the psych report. It should include, at a minimum, formal diagnoses of dysgraphia and dyspraxia, and a statement that indicates that the FSIQ is invalid due to the discrepant WMI and PSI, and that the GAI should be used as the more accurate estimate of his intellectual functioning, and a statement that his significantly discrepant and relatively poor performance on the achievement testing is a reflection of his impairments in motor output and attention or working memory.
There isn't much you can do about next year this year - so I advise not to worry about it! Just consentrate on the very good ideas that this year's school has proposed and see if the OT can help. You should definitely consider your child gifted and get to know the local parent's association. GAI is a real measure of giftedness, and a really good measure of your child's 'inner' experience.
Cricket, I'll comment that the notion of whether profile analysis is a reasonable thing to do is a highly contentious one within the professional world -- it's one of the few topics that can reliably provoke a flame war on the professional mailing lists. A few very vocal folks are certain that nothing matters other than the overall score (g), while most others take the approach that as you fly the helicopter lower, you see more detail but need to be mindful of the lowered reliability of basing interpretations on smaller samples of behavior. (Full disclosure: I'm in the second camp.) Don't assume that just because you found one article making a case in one direction that this is the way the whole field thinks.
In this case, the mediated > automatic split is *huge* and I cannot imagine defending the idea that all we care about is the FSIQ. I agree that there can be a broad range of possible causes for this finding, which Grinity has laid out the biggest possibilities... can't determine what might be going on from the data we have thus far.
Unfortunately, testing is a field in which you typically get what you pay for (or rather, if you don't pay for it, you don't get it; it's certainly possible to pay a lot for worthless testing... sigh). In the States, the skilled and thoughful testers are getting hit very very hard by insurance companies slashing reimbursements (I mean *slashing,* as in, "Oh, by the way, starting in a week, you're getting 40% less than you thought you were getting.") and denying authorizations for testing in the first place (they have never been willing to approve anything related to educational issues for kids). Increasingly, most of the good folks are refusing to take insurance or reducing the slots available for insurance-based testing, because we literally cannot make a living doing the quality of work we need to do for the rate of pay we can get from insurance. (The folks who are less professional or perhaps more ethically challenged grind out awful reports that are cut-and-paste jobs from the automatic reports generated by the scoring software.)
