Hello. My son is 8 years old and in second grade. I am considering applying for Young Scholars (assuming his scores come out in the appropriate range), but am not sure whether it would be reasonable to even try since he is more one-sided in his talents. He is very strong in math - it is always way too easy at school - even though the school has tried to make a number of accomodations, every teacher he has ever had has ended up saying they have never had a child even close to this advanced in math and have no idea how to teach him. However, his reading and writing are just a bit ahead for his age. He works in the higher groups for those, but is fine with those groups for now. I am in the process of having him tested for ADHD (brothers have it - he is more just spacey and tends to work slowly on things). The tester told me that he probably does have some level of ADHD - that may be part of the reason for his reading and writing not being as far ahead.

I don't know the exact scores yet. Here is what I have so far:

WISC scores were:

Verbal Comprehension 144
Perceptual Organization 145
Working Memory 120
Processing Speed 115
Full Scale 142

I believe GAI would be around 151-152 based on my estimates, but not sure. If anyone knows how to calculate that it would be great.

He took WJ. I do not have the scores for that, but got some feedback from the tester after the test. She said she thought math likely would be in the appropriate range. Reading will be lower. She said on the math, his speed was okay (around 5th grade level), but the other two portions were the highest she has ever seen (for a child around this age) and she specializes in testing gifted kids and has done it for a really long time.

Anyway, if anyone has any insight on whether Young Scholars ever accepts kids who are more one-sided in their talents it would be helpful and also on whether you think those WISC scores could be high enough given the lower reading scores it would be really helpful.

Thanks!

Thanks so much! Yes, I meant VCI and PRI. I was kind of guessing on GAI - thanks for letting me know 155 - that is a little higher than I thought. I think his math should be high enough. I guess we will see when she gives me the final score - she said 12th grade on two of the three parts of the math test, but I know that doesn't mean he is actually working at that grade level - hopefully it will amount to a high score though. Do you know if I could send in just WISC-IV and the math achievement scores or would I need to send the reading and writing scores also since they are all part of one test?

Thanks again for your help!

Yes, yes apply! YSP is particularly strong at 'getting' that these are unusal kids and score 'unusually.'

You son may be 2 months away from a huge 'growth spurt' in the reading area, or he may just be spiky. It is totally a myth that 'gifted=globally gifted.'

Enjoy,
Grinity

Yes! I agree with Dottie and Grinity! Definitely apply!

My son is also strong in math with weakness in reading. (with ASD diagnosis and ADHD suspected) He was recently accepted into DYS.

Good luck!

Hello again - I received a summary of my son's Woodcock-Johnson III scores. Just wanted to make sure it still makes sense to submit and to see if anyone has any further thoughts.

Broad Reading 111
Broad Math 165
Broad Writing 114

He also had particularly low scores on sound blending and auditory attention. He was being evaluated for ADHD - haven't had the parent meeting to go over details yet, but she did tell me that she believes he has ADHD. He is more of the off in his own world type and has some trouble getting things done in class (except math of course - but then he has yet to see any math in school that would be relevant for him). He prefers to work very slowly and carefully on things.

I mentioned above, but here are his WISC scores:

VCI 144
PRI 145
Working Memory 120
Processing Speed 115
Full Scale 142

Thanks so much for your help!

Anne4,
I would personally like to encourage you to apply to YSP. I don't know what they will make of those scores, but on the chance that they do accept - they have as good a chance of helping you figure it out as anyone does.

It's really hard to tell about ADHD, and you'll need a professional who 'gets' his wild far out Math talent, and is familiar with ADHD as well.

Have you explored the 'auditory processing' route? I'm wondering what he is hearing. Gifted kids can sometimes lipread without anyone teaching them or them even knowing that they are doing it.

(Don't want to scare you, but, that is one of those stories that haunt me personally. As DS13 says: If what I saw when I looked at a stop sign was the same color as what you saw when you looked at grass, and vice versa, would it matter? would we ever know?)

I love that he is a 'slowly and carefully' worker, and I hope they give him some subject acceleration in Math. I still think that his spike could still be 'right around the corner.'

Has he fallen in love with any books yet?
Does he like audio books?

Love and More Love -
Grinity

Hi Grinity,

Thanks for your thoughts! I have thought about auditory processing. He had speech issues as a preschooler - it seemed more like a fine motor coordination thing with his mouth than anything else. He passed all of the hearing tests fine. I took him to a friend of mine who does vision therapy and had him evaluated last year - she said that he had a couple of issues - can't remember the details - one was getting his eyes to refocus on something and getting them to work together. I watched her doing the testing and it was pretty obvious that it took him a really long time on that stuff. I never did the therapy - kept waiting for a time that was convenient to open up and never could decide if I really believed in it or not, but maybe it would be worth a shot.

He loved Magic Tree House books in first grade and read those all quickly. His favorites that he tends to read over and over again "Why Pi?" - something about applications of math to the real world historically - and "The Big Bang" - that one is so dense it is hard for me to even contemplate the issues it raises. I try to get him to read more fiction and things that others of his age might be more inclined to read - he read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and liked that one, but mostly likes series of books. He is reading some Pokemon ones now - kind of likes them. My older son had a big spike in reading towards the middle or end of second grade, so kind of thinking that might happen with this son also. My oldest is not a math guy though.

His school has tried to give him some exceleration with math, but even going up a couple of grades (they get the materials from higher grades and give them to him in second grade) does not help at all. His teacher taught sixth grade last year and said he feels pretty sure that my son already knows most of that as well, so they have kind of run out of ideas for him for elementary school and he is only in second grade. Hard for me to figure out what to do!

Thanks again!
Anne

This part here 'screams' Davidson YSP. Make sure that you highlight this part, and get the teacher who taught the 6th grade math to write a letter about how 'unusually gifted' he is.

There are no agreed upon definitions of MG/HG/PG, but here's my 'off the cuff' idea of how your child compares to other gifted kids. I'm out on a limb here, so if any families with 'Mathy' kids could add a comment and correct or support me a bit, please do.

An MG kid might need 3rd grade Math in 1st grade, but even if Math was his strongest subject, one would expect that the child would have to 'work' to stay up with the fastest 3rd graders.

An HG kid might be happy doing 6th grade math in 1st grade.

But being ready for 'beyond' 6th grade math in 1st grade/2nd grade - that really is unusual, even for Davidson YSP kids who are all 'PG' by Davidson's definition.

BTW, the 'obvious' choice for what to teach after 6th grade Math is (drumroll) Algebra. Obviously you don't have to rush, but that's the material I'd reach for to bring back topics from.

What kind of resources are available to teach Algebra?

from - http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/online_hs.htm

I'm also fascinated with
http://www.khanacademy.org/
totally free, and you can start with Pre-Algebra. Let me know if this helps anyone, ok?

Not free, but cheap and easy to monitor is Aleks.com
When we did this 5 years ago, it was terrific for giving problems and tracking what my son knew how to do, but not so good at explaination. My hope is that they have improved, or if not, one can supplement with Khan Academy or just googling the topic.

In my opinion it is worth the effort to apply.

I think it is also important to pursue the recommended therapies. Some will work, some won't. But when you find the right combination of approaches, it can make a great difference.

BTW my DYS completed high school Algebra I as a "second grader".

Let me stick my oar in (as parent of a mathy child and as a mathematician) and say that to people in the US school system Algebra may be the obvious place to go, but it is not actually where I'd be looking first, unless the child in question is especially interested in that area of maths, in which case of course follow his interests. I'd be far more inclined to go geometry, including both classic Euclidean proof stuff and more modern and way-out stuff like 4D polytopes, geometric approach to complex numbers, and off into topology. Also, logic, proof, probability... stuff that makes a change from things about numbers and near-numbers that they get stuffed with at school. Anne, if your DS hasn't already seen these fantastic Dimensions videos I thoroughly recommend them:
http://www.dimensions-math.org/Dim_E.htm
My DS also loves the Murderous Maths series, although it's possible they might already be a little young in style for your 8yo. (By which I mean, my 6yo finds their humour hilarious, but please don't tell me this is going to be his style for the next two years!)

FWIW my DS is not quite 6y2m and also has very little left to learn in 6th grade maths, I think (he'll finish ALEKS 5 tomorrow, and in looking ahead at the "new" topics in ALEKS 6, most are actually things he already knows, and he also knows a lot of maths that doesn't appear at this level). This is really still unusual in DYS? That shocks me, actually. Do you really have the impression that it's because something conceptual blocks children's progress, or is it just because most don't happen to go that way [e.g. you can't demonstrate that you can do calculations involving percentages if you've never met the word 'percentage', but would any 6yo DYS have any trouble after they'd been told what it meant? Is it GT denial to say that I doubt it?]

These all sound very yummy ((applause!!))
If the school doesn't come through, perhaps finding a tutor/mentor who can do the above is a good idea?


I do think that this is 'unusual' in DYS,and I think that the 'conceptual block' is in the minds of the adults. When my son was in 2nd grade, for example, I had NO IDEA that he was gifted, and neither did the teachers. Letting him try 6th grade math in 1st grade just wasn't on anyone's mind. Learning to tell time was a struggle in Kindy, and reading was just starting to solidify in First. Really.

I do remember that in first grade we played around as a family that it was possible to count to 100 on one's fingers by assigning each finger the value of 10. The teacher was blown away by that. I was blown away that she was blown away.

((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity

Your son sounds a lot like my 8 year old son. He is very good at math but just doesn't really enjoy reading except for Pokemon guides. He reads a bit above grade level (perhaps a 6th grade level when he's a young 3rd grader), but math is an entirely different story. In 1st grade he did a 1st grade math program and was really bored and hating math. In 2nd grade he easily went through the 5th grade math book (we homeschool, btw). At the beginning of 3rd we did pre-algebra and moved on to algebra by mid October. He's finding algebra pretty easy, so we're moving through it at a pretty quick rate. He's enjoying math a lot more now that he's out of arithmetic. We're planning to do geometry over the summer.

Since our sons seem pretty similar, I found your son's scores very interesting. We're still saving our pennies for testing, but hope to do it soon.

Thank you all so much. I am going to go ahead and put an application together for him. I don't think school will do much for him this year - they just seem overwhelmed by trying to figure him out - unless maybe I can come up with some very clear and simple suggestions for them to follow. That is what I really need help with. (Also, getting him to complete writing assignments more quickly but that is another issue I think.)

The woman who did his recent testing commented to me that she found it particularly interesting that he was able to do the algebra and geometry problems on the WJ test. She said when he got to those it seemed clear that he had not been taught how to do them but was still able to figure out the answers somehow. He does seem very interested in learning algebra now. I made up a couple of algebra problems for him. He was so excited and didn't have any trouble solving problems with a couple of variables and seems to particularly like ones that have fractions, decimals and square roots involved (those have been long time favorites for him). I just tried giving him a couple though, so really don't know what else would be involved with the whole course.

By the way, someone reminded me of a funny clock story with him in preschool. He was fine telling time on his own at that point, but I remember his preschool teacher telling me that she could not figure out why he spent so much time looking at a particular wall - he finally told her that he was bothered by the third hand on the clock on the wall. He told her it was hard to tell the exact time with that clock because by the time you start to think it the third hand moves and you have to recalculate. His personality hasn't changed one bit I guess.

I am going to look at the murderous math books. I could really use a new series of books to catch his attention. I will also look at the website and think about geometry and the other topics mentioned. If we could find a really good match in terms of a tutor or mentor that would probably be the best thing for him. He is always asking to do more and would love individualized stuff. I would love it if he could do some of what he wants to do with math in school, but maybe that is not realistic at this point.

Thanks again everyone!

Ray is a good source of MM and Horrible Histories:

http://www.horriblebooks.com/

Some of the later books are really advanced IMO. Our DS6/second grader loves the humor and has probably read about half of them. When you get into the algebra books, they're definitely challenging (this coming from a person with a very strong math background).

We provide them and horrible histories as an "unschooling" outlet.

JB

Good luck with the application. I am glad you are doing it, I don't see a good reason not to apply with qualifying scores.

Good luck with the application. I just wanted to mention another young kid friendly math source: Edward Zaccaro's math series. You might want to try his Real World Algebra or Challenge Math books.

Anne4, my DD10 has the exact same VCI and PRI scores. We are still working to find the right acceleration for her with her school (and in the meantime are working with ALEKS and Life of Fred afterschool). Definitely apply for DYS.

For reading, just for fun stuff, has your son tried Captain Underpants, Black Lagoon, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Guardians of Ga'hoole, or The Invention of Hugo Cabret?

Cricket2 - Thanks for reminding me of the Edward Zaccaro math books. He loved the Elementary version of Challenge Math. I looked up the algebra one and it looks like something he would love. There were a couple of other ones that also looked good. I ordered the algebra one and am still thinking about the others.

ch64 - He has read Captain Underpants and liked those - also Diary of a Wimpy Kid. He didn't seem all that interested in Black Lagoon the last time we looked at them, but I might try that again because he loved the simple ones when he was younger. I will look at the other two also - we have not seen them and I would love to find a new series to capture his interest. I ordered some of the Murderous Math books and he seems really excited to try those.

Starting to work on the application and trying to figure out who to ask to write the recommendation. Anyone have an opinion on whether it is better to have just one sent in or ask two people to do them? I was thinking of just one person who I think will write the strongest one (director of his afterschool math place - he has completed 5 grade levels of work there in about 8 months (going 2 hours a week with no study outside of the 2 hours) - of course he didn't have much to learn in the easier grade levels, but still pretty sure the director would say positive things - the director also tried to slow him down some by expanding each level beyond what he would normally give students there - adding extra challenge word problems and logic problems as he completed the standard work).

Thanks again everyone!

Anne,

Can you tell me about your afterschool math place - what type of things did they do - did he love it?

Thanks, Cat

Hi Cat -

He goes to a place called Mathnasium. I think you can find it on the internet. They do a written assessment (usually start with current grade level and then move up) and then also ask him a few things verbally - e.g., if he misses a couple of problems of one type they will sit with him and have him explain and try to see if he is making careless errors or if it is a topic he doesn't know. Based upon this assessment they will determine which things he should learn and then create a binder of materials. First page of a lesson will have an explanation of how to do something and some examples - teacher will go over this with him - then next pages will have some practice - teacher monitors as he does them - then he will have a mastery check to see that he knows that topic after some practice. They kind of adjust as he goes along - if it is clear that he knows it after one page of work he will skip the rest of the problems and do the final check and move on. After completing a grade level, they redo the initial assessment to make sure he is solid in everything - more practice on anything that he needs to do. Then they move on to assessment for next grade level.

We started towards the end of first grade when he told me he just couldn't take first grade anymore - no one teaches him any math and he needs to learn new stuff. He asked me to teach him more at home, but it was hard for me to figure out exactly what to teach him and I have three other sons that need my attention. This was our compromise and it has worked out well so far.

The director has been really flexible. I was not keen on moving through too many grade levels too quickly so he added some extra stuff within grade levels. However, my son seems happy enough moving through more grade levels and I have finally figured out that he is never going to fit in nicely with what kids are doing in school anyway, so I don't really care anymore as long as he is happy learning what he wants to learn.

In my opinion they teach things in the more traditional, logical way, at least as compared to the way that things are taught in our public school system. My older son is in our public GT center school, so does math that is supposed to be one grade up but I have found Mathnasium's stuff to be a little more complete than what our local school system teaches.

My son does love going there. He learns something a little new each day and doesn't have to spend time doing a bunch of stuff he learned years ago. He gets lots of positive feedback - from teachers and also from some of the older girls (middle and high school kids I think) who think he is just so cute when he does his quirky math stuff - reciting pi and telling them odd factual stuff he knows.

Anyway, for now it works although I keep wishing we could find a way for him to do math at school so we would not have the extra time and expense!

FYI - Not that I am necessarily a fan of Khan Academy, but it now has automatic tracking.