DD7 took the MAP test and only saw half her growth for the school year in reading. She was at 99th percentile at the beginning of the year and fell to 96th by the end. She was supposed to advance 20 points and only saw 10. No winter test so we could not see it but I knew she was regressing all school year. I almost took advice here and pulled her as many stated the regret they felt but DH is emotionally invested in the public schools here (why I do not know) and would not allow it.
I'm concerned about a long-term deficit from the lack of learning that took place. DH says "she's still 96%, no big deal".
Is this a big deal? Will it continue to haunt us now with low level reading groups in the future?
She had a brand new, inexperienced teacher who was really not together this year. Reading was put on the back burner for DD as I felt the teacher thought she could be somewhat ignored. Class was supposed to be "differentiated" but in reality it was very mixed with many students still reading picture books.
DD was kept on low level books for nearly 3/4s of the year (small paper readers from Fountain and Pinnell - no chapter books even), then all the sudden at the end of the year was given 1 book 200 points above her Lexile to read all by herself ( ie. ignored) which she obviously struggled with.
While the lack of growth seems concerning, from your post it also seems to be directly related to the lack of reading instruction at her level of readiness and ability, throughout the year, in the classroom.
Fortunately, reading is an area in which growth may be facilitated at home. What are your child's reading interests and patterns outside of school? What type of books does she gravitate toward?
Some families make regular trips to the library and/or book store.
Reading with a dictionary nearby or making a list of new or unfamiliar words can help with vocabulary acquisition.
Reading aloud to you in the car, as you drive to activities or on errands, is another strategy which some families use.
Having conversations about what she is reading, taking guesses at predicting what may happen next, developing alternative endings, and discussing the characters (which ones would make good friends, what behaviors/decisions were positive/negative/risky), may be another way to facilitate reading growth.
Because you mention Lexile levels... did you know, parents can look up books by lexile level, online at
Lexile Find-A-Book.
Are you sure it is not a testing issue? MAP does not calibrate very well towards the top of the range. If you think your child has improved during the year but MAP is saying otherwise I would not rely that highly on the MAP scores.
Also growth goals are meant for the median. A growth goal on the 99th percentile might not be the right norm.
We've been there. Here's my take: With reading MAP, your child will grow by reading independently to a point. At some point, they NEED instruction at a higher level to grow. A winter test would have been helpful. Keep in mind, too, though, that at higher RIT scores, it IS true that growth can slow.
I have one DC in a high 99% that failed to grow in a subject altogether this year. This IS concerning, IMO, particularly because the child opined during the year that (s)/he was not learning anything new in this subject.
With kiddos in the 99th percentile, you need to almost ignore the percentiles. The more important question is: Did the RIT score grow? The child mentioned above is STILL in the 99th percentile (but won't be if this continues), but the RIT score is not moving.
As much as I don't like the idea of after-schooling, I think that is the least worst option and the path of least resistance in this case. I would start with 20 minutes of math and 20 minutes of reading together each day to see if that's enough or too much.
The short answer is that yes, I would be somewhat concerned. However...
I homeschooled my son for K-4. In 4th grade, he had the opportunity to take the MAP in the fall and the spring. I *know* that he made huge gains in reading and math that year (because I taught him and saw it happening every day), but according to the test he lost two points in reading and gained only two points in math. His ITBS that year showed the growth, but the MAP did not, and I have no idea why (except that there is some evidence that he took a higher level MAP test in the fall than in the spring, but I don't know that for sure).
So my point is that there is a possibility that the test results aren't accurately reflecting her achievement. However, since you say you saw her regressing during the year, I would be more inclined to think that the test results are accurate.
I have almost the same concern. Though my DD5 is only in Kinder. She started out the year in the 94th percentile and ended at 83rd percentile. Her RIT score only went up 9 points over the year. (The projected growth was 13). I know she is still young, but I have a slight concern.
To make it more frustrating, several months ago I emailed her teacher and asked what and how much she was reading independently in school and how much she should be reading. I also asked if there were any concerns on her part. (I had suspected dyslexia, but that does not look to be the case now.) Anyway, the teacher replied to me by saying "don't worry about it".
My DD will read a list of words just fine, but if you ask her to read a book, she will refuse. I think that she just wants to hear a story fluently. And because she is not fluent yet, she refuses to try.
I posted up thread but was under the mistaken impression that MAP is a Math achievement test. Have deleted that post for not being relevant here. Note to self - RTFWP!
Reading is even easier than Maths just let you child read whatever they want and encourage them to spread their wings a bit. Reading after school and during school was fun for my DD so we never even involved the school. You have full control of this...
One more thing get them a dictionary and encourage them to use it!
Thanks everyone for the advice. I feel that part of it is just not enough time was devoted to reading in school and having trouble transitioning to books without pictures. When I look at DD7's vs. DD9's reading instruction the differences are stark. DD9's class read dozens of books and her reading score actually surpassed the growth target.
DD7's class was so different in that the teacher did not even read to the class and they only covered 1 chapter book for her book club the entire spring semester. I feel there was just no focus on reading for DD. The teacher just did not care.
DD7 reads some outside of school and when she reads she doesn't seem to struggle with words, but I feel that the problem lies in the fact that she still seems stuck on the same level of books as last year and is having trouble transitioning to books without pictures. At the end of Kindergarten she was reading Magic Treehouse, A to Z Mysteries, and Geronimo Stilton. I feel all of these gave her the 99% score.
Now I need for her to move up a bit more but it's challenging because the books lose all the pictures and plain text is not as exciting for her. Because her teacher never read these types of books to the class, DD had no one to model after (is very important for DD as she models who she's around) and she is losing focus on books. We are spending this summer trying to transition to books without pictures and find ones DD can be interested in.
... DD had no one to model after (is very important for DD as she models who she's around) and she is losing focus on books.
A number of responses seem to be nudging you to be that role model, in the home, as the parent.
We are spending this summer trying to transition to books without pictures and find ones DD can be interested in.
That sounds great. What is she interested in, in general? Books which incorporate topics of interest may have the most appeal. The Lexile book find tool linked up-thread does group books by interest, and may be of help to you in connecting your daughter to books at her challenge level.
There are also parent-sourced lists of books on the forum, for various ages. These are found in sticky threads at the top of the
Recommended Resources forum.
Not all books need to be at her challenge level; You may wish to encourage ALL reading. When reading books with few or no illustrations, you may wish to discuss the images each of you form in your imagination as you read the words on the page.
At age 7, illustrations can be a good thing if the content is more advanced. You may want to ask your favorite librarian (or look over some of these lists) for books at the right levels that also contain some illustrations.
At age 7, illustrations can be a good thing if the content is more advanced. You may want to ask your favorite librarian (or look over some of these lists) for books at the right levels that also contain some illustrations.
I would be really bummed if my DD7 didn't want to read some of the picture books we read. I mean, think of Patricia Polacco books -- they are really thoughtful, beautiful books with valuable messages (which anyone with 2E kids might appreciate a few of those, like the Art of Miss Chew, Junkyard Wonders, and Thank You, Mr Falker), that you'd miss out on if you only read text. :-)
We love the "You Wouldn't Want to be..." series, too -- history with pictures. And the increasing availability of younger audience graphic novels out there are a huge draw to both my kids. Plus, even my DS9, who reads things like Harry Potter, still will read thru Geronimo Stilton books, just for fun (though he prefers the Kingdom of Fantasy over the shorter ones).
DD7's class was so different in that the teacher did not even read to the class and they only covered 1 chapter book for her book club the entire spring semester. I feel there was just no focus on reading for DD. The teacher just did not care.
DD7 reads some outside of school and when she reads she doesn't seem to struggle with words, but I feel that the problem lies in the fact that she still seems stuck on the same level of books as last year and is having trouble transitioning to books without pictures. At the end of Kindergarten she was reading Magic Treehouse, A to Z Mysteries, and Geronimo Stilton. I feel all of these gave her the 99% score.
Now I need for her to move up a bit more but it's challenging because the books lose all the pictures and plain text is not as exciting for her. Because her teacher never read these types of books to the class, DD had no one to model after (is very important for DD as she models who she's around) and she is losing focus on books. We are spending this summer trying to transition to books without pictures and find ones DD can be interested in.
A few thoughts for you - the first is that we were always told by our early elementary school teachers that the very best thing we could do at home to help our children develop their reading skills was to read out loud *to* them - even when they are in upper elementary. So if your dd is having trouble transitioning to non-picture books, I'd read from books you enjoy to her.
Second thing to just watch out for - not likely or expected, but something that could be happening is that you might have a very bright young child who has a reading-related challenge. My youngest dd started out reading as if she would be way ahead - and she was way ahead of grade level in kindergarten and at the beginning of first, but she stopped progressing rapidly by the end of first and other readers were catching up with her, then by second it was clear she wasn't keeping up in terms of progress and by the end of 2nd she was right at grade level. By the beginning of third she'd fallen behind level, and was diagnosed with an LD that impacts her ability to associate sight and sound. There was no way we saw that in her early reading development because her other intellectual strengths made it possible for her to compensate.
Last thing - I don't put a lot of stock in percentiles re reading in K-2 grade, simply because a lot of very able children learn to read at very different ages. My ds was assessed as being behind grade level when he was 5 1/2 and was reading high school level chapter books by the time he was in first grade. His best buddy was struggling with reading even simple sight words at the end of first but was reading really well and above grade level when he started back to school in the all for first grade - all without any parental or tutoring help over the summer. Two things I take away from watching my kids and so many others learn to read - the kids who are the top readers in the first two years of school aren't necessarily the top readers a few years later - not because they've lost ground, but because other kids who started reading later catch up. If everyone started reading at exactly the same point in time, then (and really only then) I'd expect a child's reading growth in early elementary to have similar percentiles across time if he/she is learning steadily. So, in the case of an early elementary student, a drop from 99th to 96th percentile wouldn't worry me too much - especially if you felt that part of the issue was being in a classroom where reading wasn't emphasized.
Have fun reading over the summer!
polarbear
I would be really bummed if my DD7 didn't want to read some of the picture books we read. I mean, think of Patricia Polacco books -- they are really thoughtful, beautiful books with valuable messages (which anyone with 2E kids might appreciate a few of those, like the Art of Miss Chew, Junkyard Wonders, and Thank You, Mr Falker), that you'd miss out on if you only read text. :-)
I'll second longcut re picture books - and my kids still loved them long past the time they could read long complex small-font big-person chapter books
I especially love Patricia Pollaco and agree with longcut re the value of them for families with 2e kiddos
Thank You Mr. Faulkner in particular is really a wonderful wonderful book
polarbear
Agreed. Transitioning to higher level books and chapter books does
not need to eliminate all picture books!
You may wish to do a web search on "high level picture books". There were a
few old
posts on old threads which mentioned lists of high level picture books.
Using Picture Storybooks to Teach Literary Devices may also be of interest.
Is there an alternative to the MAP test that goes higher for gifted students?
Whatever kind of school (public, private, home) I like the idea of testing regularly. I like the MAP test. Both my children’s schools use it.
The problem is, gifted kids eventually max out the MAP test. They hit the ceiling and it becomes useless to them. Sooner rather than later for those of us in this forum. I believe NWEA on their MAP documentation says that reading RIT really only runs up to 245. Not to kvell but my 4th grader hit that. (Though still room to improve and MAP still useful for math and science).
I asked DD gifted school, and they are sticking to MAP. It serves at least the lower half of their grades K-8. And they say they haven’t found an alternative.
I asked NWEA (the publisher of MAP) and they don’t seem to respond to questions from parents.
Can NWEA develop “extended norms” (like the WISC test adds after enough results come in)? Or can they just extend their test beyond its current maximum at about 10th grade level. Or would their marketing department kill this notion.
So is there any alternative to MAP. Just have 'em sit the SAT 2 or 3 times a year starting in 5th grade?
Hypothetically, MAP RIT scores can go all the way up to 300, I believe (or so the tables I've seen claim), but the spread is considered relatively poor after about 245. In the case of reading, part of this may be because of the nature of reading development. Decoding skills in the NT population naturally plateau late in middle school. After that, one should be switching to measures of reading comprehension, some of which can be administered two or more times a year (e.g., the Scholastic SRI, which can be given every 30 days, and generates a lexile score, for good or ill). Creating continuous scaling from K through post-secondary, when the basic nature of the task changes in the middle, is quite challenging.
As MAP (measures of academic progress) testing is tightly tied to common core standards (the goal of which is to ensure equal educational achievement/outcomes for all students), there may be little interest in developing MAP testing which determines how far above grade level some children may be... other than to find ways in which to bring the performance of those children back to the "standard" level of achievement.
To measure achievement/growth, many families take an annual achievement test.
Might taking the SAT two to three times a year, starting in 5th grade, be somewhat excessive?
I agree it must be a challenge to span K-12 with one test. However, MAP is computer based and adaptive, so that should help immensely. I don't know if MAP fades out due to technical reasons, or marketing considerations. (why undertake difficult new enhancements, that would only please a single digit percentage of users).
I think I can say that by 10th grade MAP starts to become less useful as more and more students start hitting its practical ceilings. Or in earlier grades for gifted.
Maybe the question is, is there a test that spans 9th grade through college. SAT (or ACT) was all I could think of offhand. Possibly 3x a year is admittedly excessive. But MAP is often 3x a year. What are some alternative (annual) achievement tests. The SRI is a good suggestion. Offhand it seems to measure up to 1700 lexile, rather higher than the MAP goes. (NWEA offers data tables correlating RIT with lexile).
I've actually seen SRI numbers well over 2000L. I do find the SRI to have a pretty good ceiling, and to be reasonably well-matched, as this sort of instrument goes, to individually-administered, gold standard measures (e.g., WIAT, WJ, TORC), with a couple of caveats: Very low-functioning students are often overestimated on the first administration, because of the default start point. Unmotivated students (and I work with adolescents...) and those unfamiliar with the computer-administered format may be underestimated.
For annual testing, the SAT and ACT are developing measures beginning with eighth grade, which have some advantages, as far as continuity with the precollege measures. A bit expensive for school-wide use, in most districts, though that appears to be a component of their marketing. Keep in mind that MAP is not intended to give precise measures of progress in high-achieving students. It's intended to sort and monitor progress in students for the purposes of remediating low achievers. Consequently, the ceiling is not that important (to the test developers and primary clients).
Thanks aeh! So right now, one good idea is to look at the SRI test. I wonder if I can get my school to use it. I wonder if I can get it administered independently. If convenient, how can I corroborate for them your observation that MAP is "intended to sort and monitor progress in students for the purposes of remediating low achievers".
So SRI can cover reading. Can we think of one for math?
Am I understanding you correctly, that SAT and ACT will at some point release tests that cover say 8th - 12th (?) grade abilities. I wonder what they will name this product and when it might be released.
I might conjecture further, that MAP might be okay for a gifted school, for K-4. But come 5th-8th grade, its starting to seem ill-suited. In that there are no low achievers at a gifted school, and that the high achievers will hit the practical MAP ceiling.
SAT measure beginning with 8th grade:
https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/psat-8-9And, of course, the existing PSAT/NMSQT, and the PSAT/10:
https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/psat-nmsqt-psat-10ACT measure for 3rd to 10th grade:
http://www.discoveractaspire.org/assessments/periodic/The ACT measure includes a version that is more similar to MAP in its use for districts and schools, in terms of repeated measures during the school year. This would, of course, have measures of math and critical reading.
Scholastic also publishes the SMI for math, but I don't have any direct experience with it, nor have I had as much positive feedback on it from other professionals.
aeh I appreciate your input. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but for example the ACT Aspire, covers grades 3-10. My concern is, here at this gifted forum, if say a girl in 4th or 5th grade was already scoring 245 RIT on MAP, the MAP is no longer of use to her or her parents or teachers. Nor similarly would ACT Aspire be helpful, I project. Indeed as you point out, the MAP may be the wrong tool to begin with, for high achievers who test well.
The SRI though, would still offer granularity at her higher range, and last her a few more years, at which point she'd burn through that too.
In other words, if we were running a middle school for gifted kids, I conclude we'd bypass MAP completely. Use SRI. And... well not sure what other tests but its a start. Once I get my kids Davidson Young Scholar mentor, I'll present them with this conundrum.
I'm on board with testing, and even 3x a year, as MAP is often used. Where it falls down is when the student maxes it out early. Well, its still useful for my daughter for math and science.
I see the SMI and a MRI from Scholastic for math. I guess I don't understand this industry and who are the big dogs that manufacture all these test products. I wonder if there is any way to take SRI independently of a school, if as I fear my kids schools prove too bloody minded to offer it.
I guess I don't understand this industry and who are the big dogs that manufacture all these test products.
You may wish to research terms such as common core standards, Pearson, college board, US Department of Education, including their history, direction/trends, and stated end-goals.
While many parents may tend to focus on "what's next" for our kids educationally, it may be important to raise awareness of the overall direction of education as a whole, and how this may be related to
economic systems, including contemporary issues such as the burgeoning national debt. We are in a considerably different set of circumstances than many parents grew up in, therefore the country's economy may be seeking different skills and different types of workers going forward; This is reflected in the educational system, which essentially both prepares and sorts the workers.
Top-performing kids may not receive support/challenge, appropriate curriculum placement/pacing, the company of intellectual peers, or work in their zone of proximal development (ZPD) as the current focus in education may be bringing up the children at the bottom so that all children are performing at the prescribed common core grade-level standard, thereby closing the achievement gap and/or excellence gap.
This may be the situation faced by the OP, whose child began the school year reading at the 99th percentile and did not achieve expected growth throughout the school year.
Just wanted to get back to this thread as school is starting for us next week.
We were contacted by the principal and told that we will be placed into a class with one of the best 2nd grade teachers in the district.
I am concerned at this point because I can see after working extensively with DD over the summer that she is not where she should have been at this point. I feel she is behind and missing so much instruction the first year has really put her at a disadvantage. She will be placed with students who were in a very high performing class next year and I am not sure how she will do.
I keep seeing "If an elementary student has an ineffective teacher for even one year, a learning deficit can be measured up to four years later".
I feel that DD will never be able to catch up to these other children who received excellent instruction last year and by making this move now, the school is trying to save face.
So many anecdotes of ineffective teachers on here concerning high performing students. With the testing that we have available and the clear evidence of ineffective instruction, shouldn't we be seeing lots of cases of educational neglect? Would anyone here go so far as to sue a school district for their gifted students lack of instruction?
Shifrbv -- It looks like your DD may have a good teacher placement this year. If I were in your shoes, I would try to be cautiously optimistic and do all I could to foster beginning-of-the-year good will. I wouldn't recommend a lawsuit now, based on what you've described.
I have twins starting 10th grade. We've had a lot of teachers over the last 10 years, and some of them were crappy, but our kids are thriving in high school and performing at the top of their class. I know every situation is different, but I just wanted to let you know that one bad school year is not necessarily devastating.
Best of luck, and keep us posted on how things go.
We were contacted by the principal and told that we will be placed into a class with one of the best 2nd grade teachers in the district.
This is great news, thanks for sharing.
I am concerned at this point because I can see after working extensively with DD over the summer that she is not where she should have been at this point.
Have you kept a list of what working with her extensively over the summer consisted of? For example, titles you read aloud, books she self-selected, conversations on what she read, and her relative interest/strengths/difficulties observed?
Is there any possible vision issue and/or learning difference/disability? For example, dyslexia?
missing so much instruction the first year has really put her at a disadvantage.
What instruction, specifically, did other children have?
I keep seeing "If an elementary student has an ineffective teacher for even one year, a learning deficit can be measured up to four years later".
What is your source for this information?
Please be aware that there are other perspectives on this, such as:
... good parenting - in which parents understand, nurture, guide, and advocate for their high potential child - can overcome a year or more of mediocre or even negative school experiences.
I feel that DD will never be able to catch up
Many gifted children achieve multiple years of growth in a short timeframe with appropriate curriculum and pacing.
these other children who received excellent instruction last year
What, specifically, did this excellent instruction consist of?
by making this move now, the school is trying to save face
Is it possible there may be a positive reason for assigning your child to this teacher? For example, might this teacher's experiences help her to recognize any potential learning differences/disabilities and/or may this teacher have an approach which may be effective with your child?
So many anecdotes of ineffective teachers on here concerning high performing students.
Some may say this is because schools are generally focused on improving the performance of the students at the bottom.
With the testing that we have available and the clear evidence of ineffective instruction, shouldn't we be seeing lots of cases of educational neglect?
What specific evidence do you have of ineffective instruction? In other words, have you eliminated all other possible explanations for lack of growth, such as vision issues, learning difference/disability? Does your child have an enriched home environment similar to classmates? Is there a pattern of ineffective teaching or educational neglect on the part of this teacher? Do you have documentation to support your assertions?
Would anyone here go so far as to sue a school district for their gifted students lack of instruction?
In general, a parent cannot make their case based on what they "feel" or by articulating their fears; they must prove wrongdoing (such as violation of existing legislation and policy). It is my understanding that if a parent attempts to sue a school district and does not win the case, they may be financially obligated to pay the school district's attorney fees.
Unfortunately for gifted students, the only thing that schools really need to do is teach the state standards, which are geared to "average" for each grade. So if a child is scoring 96th percentile on a test like MAP, they are well above grade level and the school does not need to teach those above-level standards. "individualizing" instruction seems to be optional, unless a student has a disability that makes them test in the below average range (according to our district). So even though I have not seen any progress with DD's writing in about 2-3 years, since she is able to pump out an average score on a test like the WJ, the school can say that they are doing their job and nothing needs to be individualized for her. Of course they CAN write an IEP for a child scoring in the average range (if there are discrepancies between scores), but it's all about doing the bare minimum that the State forces them to do. At the last IEP meeting I passed around the State standards for lang. arts/writing, and people started grumbling about them, saying they are "too hard". According to the State standards, DD is about 2 years behind, but tests like the WJ-ACH don't pick that up, since it only requires the student to write one sentence at a time. The teachers acted like they had never looked at the writing standards before. If I had had a tape recorder, it may have given me evidence for a lawsuit.
In your case, I think your DD is on the right track with a presumably good teacher coming up next year. She will probably quickly catch up to the other high-performing kids if she has any deficiencies.