Gifted Issues Discussion homepage
Posted By: glexchick Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 04:35 AM
Hi! I'm not a regular poster but I am an occasional lurker. My DD9 was identified by the Chicago Public School system as gifted when she was 4 and placed into a gifted kindergarten in a school that we call a "regional gifted center (RGC)." After grades K-3 in the RGC (acceleration 1 grade level beyond) things slowly deteriorated into a bad situation for my daughter and our family. I doubted her giftedness, contemplated conduct disorder as a possibility, and generally pulled my hair out. My son is autistic and gifted as well, so we have a lot of moving parts. He was born right when she was placed in the gifted school and I've had my hands full ever since so she's taken the back burner for a while. I had come to the conclusion that she's "bright" not "BRIGHT."

I moved her this year to another school (more on that later) but recently found out her ISAT scores were off the hook. But I don't know what that really means. She didn't miss one question on the math and no multiple choice on the reading, got dinged for one of her extended responses. Both scores are 99.9%, 9th stanine, etc.

ISAT's aren't known for being incredibly rigorous (this year Common Core was blended in, 20 or 50 percent, can't remember). I had a mini-test done when she was 4 at the Northwestern Center for Talent Development, and she tested for the program but didn't shatter any scores.

Just trying to figure out where to take this, if anywhere. We are doing algebra on KhanAcademy.com, she reads like a maniac (taught herself between 3-4.5), she wants to take the Explore test (which I don't think she is ready for yet).

Just give me a reality check here.
Posted By: KADmom Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 11:22 AM
Hi! Welcome!

The fact she wants to take the Exlore test is a good indication she wants more. I would let her.

And don't be too hard on yourself. It's hard to get a handle on these kiddos sometimes. If you look around this site and read the posts you'll see you're not the only one who's underestimated. I've done it myself and sometimes still do.
Posted By: deacongirl Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 02:28 PM
I would very strongly encourage you to have her take the Explore. The only way to get some indication of where she is is an above level test. What do you mean "ready" for it? I would just make sure she knows that there will be stuff she has never been taught because it is for 8th graders. It was the first clue that my daughter really needed much more, and led us to get her tested with WISC and subsequent extremely successful grade skip. She is happy and thriving. I had come to the same conclusion re: bright but I was wrong.

I have two younger complicated kids, so I get when the needs of one get put on the back burner. It is a really easy way to start to understand and address her needs to have her take Explore.
Posted By: DeeDee Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by glexchick
After grades K-3 in the RGC (acceleration 1 grade level beyond) things slowly deteriorated into a bad situation for my daughter and our family. I doubted her giftedness, contemplated conduct disorder as a possibility, and generally pulled my hair out. My son is autistic and gifted as well, so we have a lot of moving parts.

I'd echo yes on the EXPLORE. DS11 (autism/gifted) took it in 4th, loved the experience and it helped him start getting a handle on what his giftedness meant. He maxed out the test in 4th, so I was glad we did it then-- doing it later would not have helped us know as much.

Given that autism is in your family, I'd suggest having your DD evaluated for autism spectrum issues as well; what looks like conduct disorder can be anxiety-driven. Better to know than not to know.

DeeDee
Posted By: glexchick Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 03:44 PM
I looked at the Explore math and english samples and I just don't think she's been taught some of this stuff yet. I don't want her to take it and then get frustrated if she doesn't do well. She has always thought she wasn't as smart as her peers (she had a lot of boys in her gifted class, and this is the age where the boys run around telling the girls how much smarter they are...made me laugh because she killed them in word problems in math but because she would space what 6x7 was and the boys were better at the rote stuff so she thought she was "bad" at math).

So now she is very proud of herself about the ISAT's and I think has an understanding of her giftedness (instead of just thinking we were telling her that because we're her parents). She's in a new school and killing it there too, so lots of new confidence. It's a Montessori 4-5-6 combo and it only took them a few weeks to decide to accelerate her (and it's easy). That was one of my frustrations with her old school...they called themselves gifted but all they did was accelerate, and that was just in Kindergarten...so they were always a year ahead, but other than that they were as hide bound as any traditional school. Actually more so b/c if the kid wasn't getting straight A's they wouldn't contemplate walking them up beyond their gifted classroom, which was a self perpetuating problem generator. Bored=less effort=even worse grades.

Anyway, so now that she's got some self confidence, I'm just worried about blowing it. The things that she was doing that made me think conduct disorder have all disappeared with the new school environment. But she and her brother are both prone to anxiety, and I have often wondered if i should have her evaluated. Because her new school is not straight gifted, she is in class with several children who have disabilities and it's out in the open, so she's been talking a lot about it and asking me if I think she has a disability and other times asking what it means to be gifted, so I know she knows she's different (as do I) but not sure how it all fits. She doesn't seem autistic at all, but, man, nothing would surprise me at this point.

Her brother is hyperlexic, read at 2.5 and diagnosed with ASD last spring. He is all over the map too. Sometimes I think he's not autistic at all, just a mad scientist the world doesn't understand...but whatever, he's getting the help he needs. Just never sure if I'm doing the right stuff with her because there is so much less help out there for a smart kid, so much less guidance on what to do for them.

Good point though that the fact she wants to take it is an important piece of the puzzle and i need to honor that.

Welp, I'll tell her she can take the test next spring. We can play around with some of the test questions over the winter so she's not frustrated by the test. I haven't ever test prepped her, but I do want her to have seen what the questions will be like before she takes it.

Anything else I should be thinking about?
Posted By: KADmom Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 03:52 PM
you'll receive sample questions after you sign her up. Anything other than that would defeat the whole purpose of above level testing: to see what your dd's capabilities are, not what she already knows. In other words, above level tests act more like ability tests than achievement.
We signed our ds11 up for it in 5th grade. No prep. Just the sample questions. One of the reasons we did it is we wanted our perfectionist son to see what it felt like to take a test for which he wasn't expected to know all the answers. He had our full permission to FAIL. He really, really needed to experience that and knowing that it was a test meant for eighth graders made it acceptable for ds.
We had no idea how far above the on-grade ceiling he was until he took that test. And because we didn't prep him, his subsequent iq test backed up the information we received from the above-level test.[i][/i]
It's really a great opportunity.
It sounds like you have great instincts though and you'll do what's best for your dd.
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 03:54 PM
If you want her to have "seen" the format and at least understand WHAT content will be presented, that's probably fine. Practice tests-- at least a couple of them... but don't go overboard.


I echo the other cautions about active PREPPING of topical coverage. That won't tell either one of you a thing. Oh, sure, it might look good, but ultimately, you'll be in the position of wondering if comparisons are valid, given that the idea in that testing population (that is, out of level testing using EXPLORE) is that they have NOT seen so much of the content. In other words, an HG child who has been "prepped" will almost certainly OUTSCORE a PG child who hasn't.

Better (IMO) to work on the anxiety part of things and respond appropriately to (potentially low) practice test scores. Or better still-- don't even evaluate them and shrug it off to your DD, explaining that HOW WELL she does isn't really a concern for you. This isn't like a school test. smile
Posted By: glexchick Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 05:35 PM
ITA about prepping, I get it, I never have, because, well, did you see the title of this thread? lolz. No prep, just exposure to the sample questions. I think that's reasonable.
Posted By: KADmom Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by glexchick
ITA about prepping, I get it, I never have, because, well, did you see the title of this thread? lolz. No prep, just exposure to the sample questions. I think that's reasonable.

lol!
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
If you want her to have "seen" the format and at least understand WHAT content will be presented, that's probably fine. Practice tests-- at least a couple of them... but don't go overboard.

I echo the other cautions about active PREPPING of topical coverage. That won't tell either one of you a thing. Oh, sure, it might look good, but ultimately, you'll be in the position of wondering if comparisons are valid, given that the idea in that testing population (that is, out of level testing using EXPLORE) is that they have NOT seen so much of the content. In other words, an HG child who has been "prepped" will almost certainly OUTSCORE a PG child who hasn't.
The country may be becoming more Bostonian smile over time, spending more time preparing for standardized tests. For example, the Russian School of Math http://www.russianschool.com/2013-award-winners , which has branches in MA and elsewhere, boasts of its students' results on talent search tests. If we have reached the tipping point where most talent search participants are preparing, it is the students who not prepare who are getting the most biased results (in their case, downwards). Another argument for preparation is that there are Tiger children of Tiger parents who are motivated to study (vocabulary, for example) by the prospect of taking the SAT again.
Posted By: Val Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
If we have reached the tipping point where most talent search participants are preparing, it is the students who not prepare who are getting the most biased results (in their case, downwards). Another argument for preparation is that there are Tiger children of Tiger parents who are motivated to study (vocabulary, for example) by the prospect of taking the SAT again.

Yeah, but the problem with hyper-prepping is that you miss out on the real talent. This problem starts to show up when the prepped ones enter their chosen fields and don't produce the results their CVs implied. High scores on standardized tests do not equal talent. They equal high scores on standardized tests.

Meanwhile, the ones with real talent who missed a few questions end up having a harder time being recognized and may suffer from lack of talent development.

Oh, hang on. Isn't that a problem we all complain about here?
Posted By: DeeDee Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by KADmom
One of the reasons we did it is we wanted our perfectionist son to see what it felt like to take a test for which he wasn't expected to know all the answers. He had our full permission to FAIL. He really, really needed to experience that and knowing that it was a test meant for eighth graders made it acceptable for ds.

Strongly agree with that approach and reasoning.

Originally Posted by KADmom
Anything other than that would defeat the whole purpose of above level testing: to see what your dd's capabilities are, not what she already knows. In other words, above level tests act more like ability tests than achievement.

Actually, EXPLORE really does act like an achievement test, not an ability test.

We didn't prep DS-- I couldn't stomach it at that point-- we did show him the sample tests for exposure to the format.

The science one would be sort of hard to prep-- that one really is about analyzing data logically, and I don't know how I'd even have begun teaching that skill, but DS had that intuitively. The English test relied a lot on whether a person has good knowledge of punctuation rules and the like; there again we relied purely on DS's instincts for that sort of thing. Reading comprehension is what it is, too; it tests how good a reader (and answerer of questions) the child is overall.

The math test, a person could certainly not do without having had some exposure to out-of-level material. This is probably where it is most strongly like an achievement test. We still didn't prep, but one could.

I don't think prepping for this sort of thing is cheating or in any way inappropriate. Prepping in that case would be... teaching the material. Which is always kosher by me, if it's not based on illicit acquisition of testing material and so forth.

We didn't prep because we didn't want to, but were just curious about what DS could do. But I don't think prep would invalidate the test.

DeeDee
Posted By: glexchick Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 09:12 PM
Thanks everyone. I don't use this website a ton, but when I do ask questions I get lots of great information. I really appreciate all of you taking the time to answer me. I've got her signed up for the January test and even if my grand scheme was to prep her, lets face it, we'll just goof around during the holidays and procrastinate and play video games and surf the net and forget to do much of anything at all. Yep that's how we roll around here...it's a miracle we get homework done.

In all seriousness, thanks for explaining the actual function of an above level test to me. I didn't really get it at first, but now I do. She is signed up thru Northwestern's CTD so we have the talent search piece covered.

Now can anyone explain NWEA tests to me. wink
Posted By: Val Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 09:22 PM
Glexchick, I should have added that I agree that it's a very good idea to be sure that your child is familiar with the format of the test before she takes it.

As an example, these questions are samples for JHU's SCAT test. You have to take it to enroll in their programs. My son went through these questions to prepare for the test. He definitely did NOT want to have to figure out the format of the questions while he was taking the test.

As for NWEA...urg. Your guess is as good as mine! shocked
Posted By: Bowser Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/07/13 09:38 PM
NWEA is Northwest Evaluation Association. They are the developers of the MAP tests: widely used adaptive assessments that are mentioned numerous times on this site.
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by Val
Originally Posted by Bostonian
If we have reached the tipping point where most talent search participants are preparing, it is the students who not prepare who are getting the most biased results (in their case, downwards). Another argument for preparation is that there are Tiger children of Tiger parents who are motivated to study (vocabulary, for example) by the prospect of taking the SAT again.

Yeah, but the problem with hyper-prepping is that you miss out on the real talent. This problem starts to show up when the prepped ones enter their chosen fields and don't produce the results their CVs implied. High scores on standardized tests do not equal talent. They equal high scores on standardized tests.
I am not too worried about this. Maybe Tiger parenting can raise my eldest son's chance of getting into Harvard from 5% to 10%. But if he does get in, he will have to handle difficult courses like Math 55 on his own, and he should be able to assess his own ability relative to that of his classmates.
Posted By: glexchick Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 01:38 AM
Are the MAP tests the ones they take on the computer? Where if they answer things correctly, the questions get harder? I am very suspicious of those kinds of tests with gifted kids. Won't take 'em long to figure out if they answer 8 in a row wrong the test is over and they get to go back to reading Harry Potter or whatever.
Posted By: glexchick Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Originally Posted by Val
Originally Posted by Bostonian
If we have reached the tipping point where most talent search participants are preparing, it is the students who not prepare who are getting the most biased results (in their case, downwards). Another argument for preparation is that there are Tiger children of Tiger parents who are motivated to study (vocabulary, for example) by the prospect of taking the SAT again.

Yeah, but the problem with hyper-prepping is that you miss out on the real talent. This problem starts to show up when the prepped ones enter their chosen fields and don't produce the results their CVs implied. High scores on standardized tests do not equal talent. They equal high scores on standardized tests.
I am not too worried about this. Maybe Tiger parenting can raise my eldest son's chance of getting into Harvard from 5% to 10%. But if he does get in, he will have to handle difficult courses like Math 55 on his own, and he should be able to assess his own ability relative to that of his classmates.

This is so foreign to me. I am older to have such young kids so I took a test in 3rd grade that got me into the gifted program, then took the PSAT (to practice for the SAT) and the SAT to get into college. No annual testing, no steady stream of evaluations. Things are out of control! Nobody prepped me (unless you consider being a latchkey kid watching Popeye cartoons and listening to the Beatles Greatest hits "prepping").

But, is there really evidence that prepping kids is truly causing disorder? Are there vast numbers of prepped kids in programs that are too difficult for them because they kind of "cheated" the system to get in. Does this really happen?
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 02:40 AM
Race to Nowhere. Yes, it's a thing.

Mostly the "thing" that it turns out to be is that the programs that are stuffed with special prepped snowflakes and TigerCubs wind up also needing "help" or needing for the expectations of the program to be "more realistic."

(You can see where this is going, right?)

Which is how we get to a place where "honors" high school graduates and valedictorians wind up needing remedial college coursework, and how HG+ children get to sit in classrooms twiddling their thumbs and being told that it IS the "gifted" class...

it was Laverne and Shirley reruns, making Kraft Mac-n-cheese without burning my BFF's house down, and The Clash for me personally. I took the same trajectory. wink


A fair number of us here have really been blindsided by how crazy-train this whole thing has gotten. As my DD14 tells me, now....
"Coooooooooooo- Ckooooooo!! Everybody climb aboard!! The crazy train is leavin' the station!"

(Yes, she picked up that sarcastic streak from I don't know where. She SNEERS quite openly at superscoring. Has refused to take any exams more than once-- on principle. That's m'girl.)


Posted By: aquinas Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
special prepped snowflakes

That sounds like a sugar-coated breakfast cereal to me, literally and figuratively. smile
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 12:45 PM
What is "test prep"? There is no gifted education or ability grouping in most Massachusetts schools, and the mediocre Everyday Math is a commonly-used curriculum. Anything my children do beyond this, such as

EPGY
Singapore Math
MOEMS
math classes at Chinese school
IDEA math
being quizzed on math by the parents (often they ask for it)

may boost their scores on the SAT taken in 7th grade compared to students who get nothing but Everyday Math. Are these activities
OK but buying a Kaplan SAT preparation book illegitimate?
Posted By: KADmom Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
What is "test prep"? There is no gifted education or ability grouping in most Massachusetts schools, and the mediocre Everyday Math is a commonly-used curriculum. Anything my children do beyond this, such as

EPGY
Singapore Math
MOEMS
math classes at Chinese school
IDEA math
being quizzed on math by the parents (often they ask for it)

may boost their scores on the SAT taken in 7th grade compared to students who get nothing but Everyday Math. Are these activities
OK but buying a Kaplan SAT preparation book illegitimate?

Good point.
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 01:27 PM
The difference is that in the one case, the activity has merit and is worthwhile in an educational sense-- both appropriate and even, I'd argue, necessary for the child in terms of holistic academic development.

In other words, EPGY, etc. aren't specifically targeted methods of producing higher test scores.

I think that most parents here would NOT view the complete Barron's series of SATII prep books as a good "plan for afterschooling" at least so far as it goes. KWIM?

Yes, enrichment probably does lead to higher test scores as well-- but it also leads to HG+ children who are more fully engaged, more fulfilled, learning to embrace challenge, etc. Shouldn't the focus be on learning in an appropriate environment? Why the focus on "scoring well" which is precisely what those test prep booklets are targeted toward? Have you examined one of those lately? They are NOT about "mastering the challenge" by a long shot. No. They are about "how to game this particular system" in order to look better than you really are.

That's not a message that I think that most perfectionistic gifties need to hear-- they are already prone to imposter syndrome.

I guess I have pretty firm opinions on this subject, being in the middle of having those test scores REALLY, REALLY matter with a HS senior-- believe me, that comes soon enough. No need to put that on a 5th or 6th grader's plate. The entire industry is suspect, IMO-- and for evidence, just see "SAT alarm" thread for details about that.

What IS true is that if you're bright enough and well-educated enough, these things really will still take care of themselves. Like I said-- a few practice tests just to get a feel for the level of stamina needed and the format. That's enough.



Posted By: epoh Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by glexchick
Are the MAP tests the ones they take on the computer? Where if they answer things correctly, the questions get harder? I am very suspicious of those kinds of tests with gifted kids. Won't take 'em long to figure out if they answer 8 in a row wrong the test is over and they get to go back to reading Harry Potter or whatever.


Yes, the NWEA MAP tests are computer based... however, they are pretty short and the entire class typically does them at the same time. They all have to answer the same number of questions, just the difficulty level changes... so purposefully getting the answer wrong doesn't result in a shorter test, just a lower score.

We've always explained to DS9 that these type of tests are what show the teacher where he's at, so it's important to always do your best, otherwise things will never get more interesting at school! So far so good.
Posted By: Dude Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
What is "test prep"? There is no gifted education or ability grouping in most Massachusetts schools, and the mediocre Everyday Math is a commonly-used curriculum. Anything my children do beyond this, such as

EPGY
Singapore Math
MOEMS
math classes at Chinese school
IDEA math
being quizzed on math by the parents (often they ask for it)

may boost their scores on the SAT taken in 7th grade compared to students who get nothing but Everyday Math. Are these activities
OK but buying a Kaplan SAT preparation book illegitimate?

Look just down the coast at New York City, where professional tutors are hired to coach toddlers through a rigorous pre-K selection, to get a look at the extreme end of test prep, and its consequences.

Also, it would depend entirely on how many hours those additional resources you described are taking up. If the kids are just doing an hour or two a day, and they're still finding plenty of time to play afterwards, no worries.

If the enrichment is displacing all free play time, they're not on a healthy trajectory: paper
Posted By: Sweetie Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 02:11 PM
We don't have MAPS at our school but we do have STAR (the one on the computer to give you AR levels for reading and math and there is an early literacy test too).

And...the test stops as soon as you hit the required number of wrong answers. It might not even start if you don't get the practice questions right. So some kids take the test for a long time and some kids take a few practice questions and are done and then anywhere in the middle.

I do think my son wanted access to lower level books and didn't do the test to the best of his ability because his reading level came down from the year before at the start of this year and he read over 2 dozen chapter books with a range of levels of difficulty over the summer. So his reading shouldn't have gone down from a lack of summer reading.
Posted By: KADmom Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
The difference is that in the one case, the activity has merit and is worthwhile in an educational sense-- both appropriate and even, I'd argue, necessary for the child in terms of holistic academic development.

In other words, EPGY, etc. aren't specifically targeted methods of producing higher test scores.

I think that most parents here would NOT view the complete Barron's series of SATII prep books as a good "plan for afterschooling" at least so far as it goes. KWIM?

Yes, enrichment probably does lead to higher test scores as well-- but it also leads to HG+ children who are more fully engaged, more fulfilled, learning to embrace challenge, etc. Shouldn't the focus be on learning in an appropriate environment? Why the focus on "scoring well" which is precisely what those test prep booklets are targeted toward? Have you examined one of those lately? They are NOT about "mastering the challenge" by a long shot. No. They are about "how to game this particular system" in order to look better than you really are.

That's not a message that I think that most perfectionistic gifties need to hear-- they are already prone to imposter syndrome.

I guess I have pretty firm opinions on this subject, being in the middle of having those test scores REALLY, REALLY matter with a HS senior-- believe me, that comes soon enough. No need to put that on a 5th or 6th grader's plate. The entire industry is suspect, IMO-- and for evidence, just see "SAT alarm" thread for details about that.

What IS true is that if you're bright enough and well-educated enough, these things really will still take care of themselves. Like I said-- a few practice tests just to get a feel for the level of stamina needed and the format. That's enough.

I agree with this, particularly because that last paragraph.

Posted By: Quantum2003 Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 03:06 PM
Don't worry, Slacker Mom, benigh neglect can be a good thing! Sometimes it's wonderful to simply leave our kids alone to learn what they want when they want. The fact that your DD wants to take the Explore should be the deciding factor. MY DS & DD both took the Explore when they were 8 and again when they were 9. The actual test is two hours with 4 30-minute sections. We didn't do any prepping either time other than the sample questions that were provided. It's a pseudo-achievement test because a high-ability kiddo can score really high without studying the typical middle-school curriculum. I would not wait because you don't know where your DD stands and it may be too late next year. DS hit the ceiling on the Explore (99 percentile compared to 8th graders) in 4th grade so if we had waited until 5th grade, the ceiling effect would have obscured the results.
Posted By: Val Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
I am not too worried about this. Maybe Tiger parenting can raise my eldest son's chance of getting into Harvard from 5% to 10%. But if he does get in, he will have to handle difficult courses like Math 55 on his own, and he should be able to assess his own ability relative to that of his classmates.

That's not the point. The point is that prepping hysteria and tiger parenting are creating significant problems for our society by turning learning into a status competition (and a rather vulgar one at that). Tiger parenting and prepomania are full of sound and fury and signify nothing.



Posted By: glexchick Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 04:06 PM
I have already said it but just wanted to reiterate, I really appreciate the thoughts. Now that you guys mention it, I now remember other Moms from the gifted class talking about prepping their kids for the test. I pretty much data dumped it because the idea was so dumb it didn't merit space in my brain (valuable commodity these days). But you know what, those kids were doing better than my kid grade wise, and all other things wise. Maybe Mom just lives in their a__ constantly.

I really appreciate the advice on the explore test too, yes she is taking it because she asked me to take it and she understands that there will be some stuff she hasn't learned yet and she just shrugged that off. I also appreciate you guys explaining the upper level test concept to me. My son hits ceilings all the time because they keep giving him first grade academic tests...it doesn't really matter right now because his hard work is social and behavioral for now but at some point it will matter to him as well.

I am doing algebra with her on KhanAcademy, which we both are enjoying. We just mess around with the mastery challenges and watch one or two videos a night. I do it with her which is fun for both of us. Not to prep for anything in particular but basically because we're all out of pre algebra to learn and she's got another year before it shows up in the curriculum, I think. (I hope).
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 04:17 PM
Sounds like you're following her lead and her needs-- which is the best that any of us can really do for our kids. smile
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Dude
Originally Posted by Bostonian
What is "test prep"? There is no gifted education or ability grouping in most Massachusetts schools, and the mediocre Everyday Math is a commonly-used curriculum. Anything my children do beyond this, such as

EPGY
Singapore Math
MOEMS
math classes at Chinese school
IDEA math
being quizzed on math by the parents (often they ask for it)

may boost their scores on the SAT taken in 7th grade compared to students who get nothing but Everyday Math. Are these activities
OK but buying a Kaplan SAT preparation book illegitimate?
Also, it would depend entirely on how many hours those additional resources you described are taking up. If the kids are just doing an hour or two a day, and they're still finding plenty of time to play afterwards, no worries.

If the enrichment is displacing all free play time, they're not on a healthy trajectory: paper
Not all of the activities I listed were done at the same time, and I don't think my eldest son has averaged more than 3-4 hours a week on them, while my younger children, for whom 2 to 3 20-minute sessions of EPGY per week have been their main afterschooling, have spent less time than this.
Posted By: Val Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/08/13 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by glexchick
I am doing algebra with her on KhanAcademy, which we both are enjoying. We just mess around with the mastery challenges and watch one or two videos a night. I do it with her which is fun for both of us. Not to prep for anything in particular but basically because we're all out of pre algebra to learn and she's got another year before it shows up in the curriculum, I think. (I hope).

HowlerKarma made a good point about the difference between prepping and learning. Algebra is definitely the latter, so don't feel bad about teaching your daughter if she's ready for it!
Posted By: qxp Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/09/13 06:58 PM
Regarding test prep - I was going to write the other day that I found it hard to believe that you did not prep your DD and she got into one of the centers in CPS. Everyone I know who got in, prepped their kids. One relative of mine was so excited that her overly prepped daughter got in and yet now she struggles.

Posted By: glexchick Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/10/13 03:56 AM
Let me explain how not prepped she was. I mailed the application on the last possible day because I was ambivalent about leaving her school (I was heavily involved with their friends of organization and it is my neighborhood school so we have a lot riding on it beyond our kids...property value etc. Crazy I know, but this is Chicago, man, we are through the lookingglass here I can tell you).

After that, I had an early, urgent C-section in January because I was developing pre-eclampsia (again...my daughter was born preemie due to HELLP syndrome/severe pre eclampsia). I had a raging case of post partum depression coupled (or because of) the stress of having a newborn in January during the deep freeze. And my Mom had just gone home when I had to haul them both to the testing center down at IIT by myself b/c hubby was working. It was a miracle we made it at all. I was still trying to nurse him, so all I really remember about the whole thing was hoping she would be through before he had to eat...and she was gone forever.

So yeah, no prep. Kid would have probably enjoyed being prepped because otherwise I paid no attention to her for, like, a year. Poor thing. She's way more awesome than I deserve her to be... smile
Posted By: MumOfThree Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/10/13 05:35 AM
Ah glexchick, you remind me of my poor middle child's life in the 2 years leading up to her IQ test (3-5yrs old) 9 months of "Mummy's puking - go play in the sand pit/dress up" followed by "The (sick) baby won't stop screaming and mummy hasn't slept in months, go play in the sandpit /dress up"... Not easy on them or you!
Posted By: deacongirl Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/10/13 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by glexchick
Let me explain how not prepped she was. I mailed the application on the last possible day because I was ambivalent about leaving her school (I was heavily involved with their friends of organization and it is my neighborhood school so we have a lot riding on it beyond our kids...property value etc. Crazy I know, but this is Chicago, man, we are through the lookingglass here I can tell you).

After that, I had an early, urgent C-section in January because I was developing pre-eclampsia (again...my daughter was born preemie due to HELLP syndrome/severe pre eclampsia). I had a raging case of post partum depression coupled (or because of) the stress of having a newborn in January during the deep freeze. And my Mom had just gone home when I had to haul them both to the testing center down at IIT by myself b/c hubby was working. It was a miracle we made it at all. I was still trying to nurse him, so all I really remember about the whole thing was hoping she would be through before he had to eat...and she was gone forever.

So yeah, no prep. Kid would have probably enjoyed being prepped because otherwise I paid no attention to her for, like, a year. Poor thing. She's way more awesome than I deserve her to be... smile

I hear you. That sounds like a tough winter. My second child has Down syndrome, and when 3rd child was adopted from Vietnam with the most intense case of psychomotor OE I have ever seen the havoc those two little ones caused for a few years was of historic proportions. Poor number one dd. As you said, she is way more awesome than I deserve her to be.
Posted By: HowlerKarma Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/10/13 01:27 PM
Not everyone who gets into the CPC centers is heavily prepped-- I know someone else whose child (a contemporary of my own DD) did sort of... er... by accident actually... as in, the parents weren't even fully AWARE that the child was being evaluated for a possible placement by the school.

MUCH angst ensued, because the child was the ONLY one of the (mostly heavily prepped) peer group that DID get the nod, only...

they weren't sure it was the right thing to do, even, because this was in MIDDLE SCHOOL. As noted, child's peers did NOT qualify.

My friends says-- wow, was THAT ever an awkward set of conversations at parent back-to-school night.
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Slacker Mom but maybe that's ok? - 10/11/13 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Why the focus on "scoring well" which is precisely what those test prep booklets are targeted toward? Have you examined one of those lately? They are NOT about "mastering the challenge" by a long shot. No. They are about "how to game this particular system" in order to look better than you really are.
Some test preparation books have titles (for example, "PWN the SAT") suggesting that the SAT is an adversary they will show you how defeat with the right tactics. We have not used such books. The book I used with my then-8-year-old was "Math Study Guide for the SAT, ACT and SAT Subject Tests". As the title suggests, it reviewed the math covered on those tests, not test-taking tactics. For my eldest son, the SAT Math problem has been "solved" -- he should get a very good score now and in 11th grade without further direct preparation. He wants to take the SAT again this year for the challenge, so the question is how to improve on the other two sections. He is working through a series of vocabulary books by Shostak. For grammar I may get a book "The Ultimate Guide to SAT Grammar" by Meltzer, which has been well-reviewed on Amazon. For a competitive kid, test preparation can spur learning.
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