When I first started researching giftedness for DS6 I came across Ruf's levels and put him at a solid 3 with a couple of 4 tendencies. I thought that meant he was just "regular old gifted" as opposed to "scary smart gifted". Now that I'm researching the levels a bit more (as opposed to the earlier is he/isn't he question), I'm confused by exactly where level 3 falls on the gifted spectrum. So, what is a "Level 3" exactly and does it give me any real information on him or is just a fun toy to play with?

Also, I've been looking at her book but can't decide whether it's worth $24. So really the same question, is her book useful or just interesting with no real application?

Thanks!!

The Ruf level's have been a topic of hot debate on this board. I actually have great respect for Dr. Ruf and what she's done for the GT world. She is actually local to us and I'd love to take my son to her.

However, the Ruf levels would not have worked for my son as a preschooler. I think the thing to keep in mind is that her sample size is small and is based on the kind of child she would see in her practice. Probably a relatively affluent and very involved parent base. We actually fit that profile, but my son was a very active preschooler who pursued his own interests. I read with him and played with him and he never seemed to be overly interested in "academics" - although we had many math and science discussions. He also wasn't very open with knowledge he had. He certainly did not hit any of her reading milestones. He also enjoying playing hard outside and running like a maniac. It would actually be interesting to know a bit about the families and kids that she based her levels on. At age 7, my son leans to level 4 as far as learning and ability and reads like a kid who has been reading since 3. But he definitely enjoys age peers (which are actually probably mostly MG kids). So like anything in life - YMMV (your mileage may vary!).

I do think the book is worth a read though regardless. I think it's good to keep in mind those levels are one construct of many to make sense of this craziness. Maybe reserve it at the library if you can?

Being too lazy to look it up, kimck, what is the name of the book?

At your service!

Losing Our Minds - Gifted Children Left Behind
http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Our-Mi...mp;s=books&qid=1217470750&sr=8-1

I got the book when DS was about 11. He was way past preschool years and I could not remember most of his early development so the checklist had not been very useful to us. What I found really useful in the book was the anecdotal descriptions of each of the kids at each of the levels, especially at the older ages. I found that as I read each chapter through with very concrete descriptions of what the kids were doing, I got a much better overall sense of what they were really like. When I got to the section on a certain level, everything snapped into place and I though, "Yep, that is just like DS." It was a really great moment for me.

There are lots of methodologic issues as kimck says so I don't think it is the be-all and end-all, but for us having the actual stories of actual kids in front of us presented somewhat systematically was a great reality check for us.

I love that book. I usually skip all personal stories in books... but I found that collection helpful to us. Mostly, I like the aspects of what worked and what didn't. The education options and the basic ignorance folks faced. I also think the book is always good as a touch stone in moments of gt denial.

Oh to your question... I would focus more on the general gt aspects and the education stuff (last couple of chapters).

I found the educational stuff useful in a general sort of way. I think that some of her conclusions about what can and cannot work to be overgeneralized.

Since her sample was primarily people who had sought her out for assessment, I think it is good to keep in mind that the sample might have overrepresented families that were having problems in their educational setting. Yes, that is very real and a real concern for our kids. But we just don't know how many HG kids there might be out there who did not seek her services. And of those, how many could have used those services, and how many were actually doing OK in their current setting. Without that information, I am not sure she is actually justified in drawing all the conclusions she does. She raises good concerns, don't get me wrong, but I think she just goes a bit too far based on the data she has (that actually holds for all the book, including her levels).

But I still really like the book.

Just to chime in...

There are all sort of problems with her methodology and conclusions, and I see them and acknowledge them. That's all true.

With that said, this was far-and-away the most useful book for me in recognizing and dealing with my GT denial and figuring out how to educate our HG+ child.

The descriptions are great. And while I don't agree with all her generalizations about HG+ kids and what educational situations are appropriate for them, I did feel like she gave me permission to pull my child out of school for homeschooling, and that was permission that I needed at the time.

Knowing that *lots* of other people with kids like mine had a hard time working with the schools, and that an expert in the field said that not only was it okay to consider homeschooling, but it was actually something she considered to be necessary for a lot of these kids because the schools just couldn't manage them...well, that really helped me to find my confidence, at a time when I had none. I needed to know that I wasn't overreacting. She said I wasn't.

I think many HG+ kids do great in the schools, provided they get the necessary accomodations (whatever those happen to be for the particular child). But mine wasn't doing great, and I will forever be grateful to Ruf for showing me just how GT DS7 is and for giving me permission to educate him appropriately.

I don't own the book. A friend loaned it to me. I keep meaning to buy it--mostly to put my money where my mouth is--but I haven't gotten around to it. I'd say you should at least check it out of the library if you haven't read it yet. If it doesn't help you--and it certainly doesn't help everyone--then you're not out anything.

And BTW, I like what Dottie said: it's one tool among many. You can never have too many tools!

Kriston,

That's a great story. I'll guess data attracted people might find the book a little anecdotal? As much as I'm driven to decision by data, the human/emotion(but not rampant, mind you) have to come into play. I've even overriden good data because my instinct are strongly suggesting otherwise.

It's hard to make big decisions that go against the grain, especially when you make them for your child! I'm glad that book gave you the confidence you needed to make the right decision for you son.

In the past year or so, I think I've read every opinion out there concerning what to do with the girls. I've valued each one and basically processed through them and blended those that applied to my family. It is great when you see that something in print that speaks: No, mom, you aren't crazy, these kids also did this and we think it's because..................

Funny story about the book, I haven't read it, but have read the online posts of her levels.
One thing that jumped out was the alert at birth and high apgar score thing.
When DD8 was born, it was not a typical delivery! At the end I felt as if I had been through "the war"! As I remember she had all tens, I think is the high number for Apgar. The doctor and nurses were all crazy about how high all her scores were, and "isn't that unuuuusualll", and they were all creepily mystified.

I was all: "Oh, I'm glad you like it because I'm never doing that again. Can someone please get me a sandwich or something?"

Yes, I'm all about data and logic, but I always trust my gut, too. I know that sounds weird, but I think we sometimes perceive things subtly that don't really get measured. If we are self-aware, then a good gut-check can really help to make sure the decision is a good one.

My gut-check back then screamed "Pull him out!" It was nice to have expert support for that.

And LOL about the sandwich! Boy, do I know what you mean there! The whole starving thing during delivery seems nuts to me. I was so hungry that I was nearly ready to eat my first child when I finally had him!

ROFL!!! 'Neato, that is too funny!

Oh no!

It was okay. I was too tired to actually get a good bite out of him.



DH and I did later theorize about the best cooking methods for an infant. My mom was horrified. DH and I thought it was hilarious.

I favored roasting, BTW.

ROFL!

The comedy on the board this week is killing me! Take your act on the road people!

Tip your servers, and try the chicken!

Thank you and good night!

Man, I could go for some Orange Ruffey!

Not meaning to be a killjoy when the humor is running....but back to the topic:

I happened to have loved Dr. Ruf's book and found it very useful in terms of putting my son's giftedness in perspective. This might be because I bounce between the idea of "you're not all that smart" and "how smart ARE you???!" when it comes to understanding MrWiggly.

I think that Dr. Ruf makes it clear, if not in her book then on her website, that her book and views are in fact based only on the children she has seen and evaluated. She acknowledges in the book that this is a small sample and anecdotal evidence to support her LOG. What I find interseting and most helpful is her view that you cannot label a lavel of giftedness simply by having a test score. Her book clearly shows how there is so much more to consider when dealing with a gifted child. Her tables indicate that children can have the exact same scores on an ability test and yet actually have very different needs in terms of education and parenting due to other factors in terms of temperament, motivation, early developmental profile and so on. I think it is wonderfully holistic way to view a child and his/her needs.

Dr. Ruf has done a lot of work looking at how temperament (using Meyers-Briggs and the children's version, Murphy-Meisgeier) can influence the way giftedness plays out in a child or adult's life. I know not everyone is a fan of those assessments, but I think it can be very helpful in understanding yourself and your child.

In fact, all that said, I'll tell you now that we are taking MrWiggly to see Dr. Ruf in less than two weeks. We considered several options we had for testing and finally settled on the trip to MN to have him evaluated by her. I had received feedback from several parents that evaluation with her was the most helpful assessment they had ever had for their child. After a couple of emails with her and then her assistant, looking at some of the info on her website, getting that feedback and deciding exactly what we needed to learn or know about our son, we decided she was our best bet.

I'll have to let you know how it works out, I suppose. FWIW, we have already completed the personality stuff for all of us and found that MrWiggly is an EFNP. Dr. Ruf notes that although "P" is estimated to occur in about 48% of the population, approximately 92% of the children who come to her for evaluation are "P". Interesting. Perhaps being a "gifted P" personality makes school and things harder?? We also know that I am ENFJ and my husband is INTJ/P. We are looking forward to her insights about our relationships with MrWiggly in terms of personality profiles as well as his intellectual abilities. We are also hopeful that she will be able to educate us on just what may or may not work in terms of teaching and education for MrWiggly. I'll keep you posted if you're interested!

I have not yet read Dr. Ruffs book, however I have read
A Parents Guide to Gifted Children
By James T. Webb

I have found it very informative and helpful. I highly recomend it for both parents of all children.

That's great Doodlebug. You'll have to know how it goes!

I wish we weren't so cheap. I just feel at this point, the $$$ for us is better spent on homeschooling stuff and extra classes. With the free testing we've had done through the school system and research, I feel pretty comfortable with where DS falls and it doesn't appear he has anything else going on in terms of LD or 2E issues. If we were planning on negotiating a school system for the long term though it would be a whole different ball game. Although, some school systems don't honor IQ test data anyway. I'm sure we'll do some talent search stuff when we get to that age.

Oh, kimck, believe me the cost is definitely a consideration for us. Not an easy thing. We are testing, again, because we need more answers. The psychologist who first tested MrWiggly two years ago told me that given recent events, behaviors and test scores she would recommend re-testing at this point. She felt his SB5 scores were low and thinks the results will be more stable now (at age 7.5) and agreed that we need more input to help us with behaviors. So we just made the decision to go to Dr. Ruf for a different perspective. My husband really hated the idea of more testing at first but finally agreed that we needed the answers to help us in terms of school and behaviors. Although he's hoping the scores will show ME that we need to move to another state on behalf of MrWiggly's education!

I'm on board with you there, my dear killjoy. The holistic approach seems to fit well with my family. I did give both girls an online personality profile and it was dead on. The girls are literally polar opposites. Then I read the descriptions to them and asked them if they thought it was describing them.

A big yes! And yes, I am very interested to hear how Dr. Ruf helps Mr. Wiggly. I wish you the best of luck and safe travels.

Here's the child personality quiz link, someone has posted it here before:

http://www.personalitypage.com/kids.html

It's all about what you need at the time. If you know that the schools aren't worth the slog to you, and you don't really need more testing data for any other other purpose, then I think you're 100% right to spend the money elsewhere, kimck. We're certainly done with testing DS7 for that very reason. Maybe another WJ-3 after a couple more years of homeschooling to be sure he's making sufficient gains. But that's it.

Now, DS4 is getting tested the second he steps foot in public-school K. We'll get the free testing and then (hopefully) we will be better equipped to decide what to do about 1st grade for him.

I could totally see that Doodlebug! I feel pretty lucky DS hit the ceiling on his school's screener in kindergarten. He could have so easily had a bad day on that group test and we'd be scratching our heads right now.

And thanks for the validation 'Neato! I like the use of the word "holistic". And P.S. I hope you're keeping us up to date on your situation for fall!

And PS thanks for that link again! It just totally nailed DS (ENP).

I think I will have our library do an inter-library loan for it, because it really does sound like it would be an interesting read and maybe help us with a general idea of where he places on the spectrum. We're kind of doing things backwards, since school was such a disaster. I tried to get the data to help illuminate the behaviors/abilities I was seeing, but the school was refusing. Then my mommy gut kicked in and said that regardless of what his IQ was he was drowning at school and the only thing I could think to do without scores was to bring him home (there's a public gifted school here, but it requires IQ scores).

So, now I'm trying to go back and fill in the blanks- Why was school such a disaster for him? Why is he capable of learning things not from thin air, but in insanely large gulps? Fine, he's gifted, but is he "will never be able to thrive in public school" gifted or is this a personality issue we need to work through (he says he doesn't ever want to go back, that the next time he goes to a school it will be college)?

All of these questions and a full scale assessment is just financially not feasible in the near future. I'm hoping that with my observations not just as his mother, but as his teacher and then resources like this board and books like Dr. Ruf's I'll be able to find some answers even if we won't know everything. But, it's hard to tell whether books just say what I want to hear or are actually sound resources, so I thought I'd check before I got too excited!

I love hearing everyone's stories and experiences, it really does help that even if I can't fully identify with DS with all the kids (because you guys' kids are amazing!), I at least see something of him in there and it feels a little less crazy and lonely.

But if the kid is playing chess in his head, is school really working for him? I'd argue no.

He may be compliant, but his needs aren't being met, and some not-great habits are forming...

Gratified, that sounds a lot like my experience with Ruf's levels and my DS. My DD4 is more likely to fall into her levels cleanly.

And I totally agree with the fit into public school being a personality thing. I know of non-GT kids that are as miserable as DS7 in our public schools as he is. My daughter however would love it, I'm quite sure. Is definitely all about the individual kids and so it is hard to make any sense out of the levels. Like someone else said, if your HG+ child is enjoying school and happy you're much less likely to go to someone like Dr. Ruf.

I kind of feel like it doesn't matter if DS is the 1 in 100 or the 100,000 kid (or 1 in 20 kid for that matter). If he's not learning in school and is miserable, time for a change.

OH gratified....I so envy you!!! I've tried to teach my son to check out like that but nope ... and I'm beginning to realize that it's more about DS's personality and his dissatisfaction with school than IQ. He's MG I think rather than HG but he's quite miserable...or at least he says to me...teacher says he's very happy during the day. I think he should have skipped K and then he'd likely be Ok now or at least, better. I do notice he is getting lazy intellectually and DH even remarked about it so that really worries me.

I didn't mean to offend you. Obviously I wasn't suggesting that I know the child better, and I certainly didn't intend to attack your choices. I know how hard this is. I'm sorry if that's how it came out.

What I *did* mean to say is that in general, I believe that "compliant" and "served" aren't necessarily the same thing, and I think it pays to consider the distinction between the two.

I "checked out" in school by reading novels behind my textbook and writing notes to friends (and boyfriends, as I got older). I happened to love that, too, but I recognize now that it wasn't necessarily good for me. That ability to entertain myself serves me in line at the bank, too, but I think it also left me underchallenged and not good at self-starting for a lot of years. As a result of my experiences and even worse ones from my DH, I don't think that sort of scenario is necessarily harmless.

My opinion. No offense intended. Feel free to ignore.

Hey gratified. I'd like to present a contrary opinion concerning the coping skills you all are talking about. Upfront, I'll say that I respect your position and your child is obviously doing really well!

IMHO, checking out like you describe; I'll refer to it as behavioral disengagement, cause that's what I think it is.
I had a similar reaction to school and used behavioral disengagement as a coping strategy. It's important to note that probably due to my temperment and personality, I used this strategy to the EXTREME!

People use many different coping strategies to deal with stressful situations. Active coping strategies are usually thought of as most healthy. Behavioral disengagement is thought of as an avoidance coping strategy and generally not as healthy as active coping skills.

My sister, who majored in psychology, agrees with you. She feels that a child like yours or mine uses disengagement as a healthy way to cope with an uncomfortable situation in regard to the school setting. Because she is older, she insists that she is right and I am wrong.

But because of my experience, I got very involved with the school when I discovered that DD5 was disengaging in K. Maybe it has more to do with temperment when it comes down to whether or not its helpful or harmful.

I did think this article was pretty interesting. Here's the part that caught my eye, and then the link:


"Medscape: Who is most at risk for long-lasting effects from this or similar tragedies?

Dr. Silver: Importantly, our study assessed mental health history before the tragic events of Sept. 11 occurred. As expected, those who had a history of anxiety or depressive disorders or other psychological problems were most likely to have persistent symptoms in response to Sept. 11. What surprised me, though, was the potency of coping strategies as a predictive factor. Those who reported behavioral disengagement were at greatest risk, above and beyond other factors like psychosocial history. We didn't even find a strong effect for normally protective factors, like higher income or social supports. Income was not related to frequency of posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms, but subjects with higher income were less likely to report psychological distress."

Sorry, I've removed the link as you need to be able to sign in as a user.


I've read that many highly gifted people suffered from p.t.s.d. after 9/11 whether or not they were there during the attack. I had to wonder if there was a connection because I'm quite sure many highly gifted students defer to disengagement repetitively during school hours for many years.

Anyhooo....just another perspective.

'Neato

It looks like I need a login to get the article so I haven't even read it. So I have no evidence, articles or anything, but I think there must be a difference between entertaining oneself during life's inevetiable down times and what you refer to as behavorial disengagement.

I see what gratified's child is doing is much more in lines with self-comforting and self-control (which are positive traits)rather than checking-out.

The reason that I suspect that giftedness might play a part is because DS wasn't just crying not to go to school, that I would have considered a behavior issue we would have gotten to the bottom of, but ultimately dealt with it differently. He was begging me to make them teach him "real things", those were his exact words "Mom, please, make them teach me real things!". When we brought him home he was so desperate to learn that we had school for 3-4 hours a day because he would ask to keep going with a lesson or for me to keep talking to him and he finished a years worth of math in less than 2 months. It's slowed down some, but he still is scheduled to finish a semester's worth of Singapore math after a month and a half. He still finds science concepts and researches them exhaustively. If he continues like this, I really don't know how a school would accommodate it. He takes the introduction of a math concept, asks a couple of questions and suddenly he's just figured out the concept for the next 2 years worth of work. He is not a high achieving people pleaser, he doesn't sit down and shut up easily (I know I've been begging for the last 6 years, lol).

So, I guess what I mean by "never thriving in school" isn't so much how high his IQ is, but how he learns coupled with his personality. Occasional boredom he can handle, but the chronic lack of mental stimulation he had in Kindergarten was too much. He had done fine in preschool for 3 years, but he had expected school to be different. He had expected that he was going to learn something every day. And at 6 he's jaded and completely disenchanted with school, he regularly tells me he's not going back until he starts college. If this is a personality issue, I feel like at some point he'll mature out of it and we can work around it, if it's an issue of giftedness then he's never going to outgrow it and he'll have to learn how to manage it, but if it's a combination of the 2 (which is my guess), then I'm not sure I see a regular classroom with his age peers ever working.

My question (rhetorical) at this point is how much is gifted and how much is personality? Am I going to spend the next 12 years trying to play mediator between the world and him, sitting on this fence trying to explain the world to him and trying to explain him to the world? Or is there a light at the end of the tunnel, that I can hope one day he'll finally understand what I mean when I say "You can't change other people, you can only change yourself" and "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar"? Giftedness vs. personality.

I'm not sure if any of this makes sense, but I've been editing it for a couple of hours now, so off it goes

I wonder if this is one of those things parents just need to do a gut check on to get a sense on where their kid lies and if their coping skills are leading them down a bad path, or if they still have a strong work ethic and enthusiasm for learning. It certainly is no one-size-fits-all situation.

I definitely employed the techniques 'Neato did to survive school. Looking back, I may have been clinically depressed during my elementary school career. I think this has definitely made me hyper sensitive to my kids school careers.

I personally just don't assume it's harmless, whatever you call it.

That's not to say that I assume it's harmful either, BTW. Just that I think the question is important to ask in the generic sense. (None of this is really aimed at gratified. As I said, I never intended to second-guess. I would never presume.)

It's possible this sort of coping strategy is positive but the situation that requires the coping strategy is not, at least not in the long term. I think that would be my take on it, FWIW.

Important, too, is the fact that my parents and teachers always assumed it was a positive thing that I stayed busy and undisruptive, I think. A big part of this is my own rejection of that assumption.

ACS,

There is no diagnosis going on here, obviously!

You call it what you will, I'll call it what I will, it's subjective.

As for the question of personality vs. GTness that you're asking, M&M...

I think kimck is right that it comes down to a gut check. If you doubt that he'll ever fit into school--and boy, do I hear you there!--then I'd say trust your gut....at least for the near future. Things can change, especially as they hit puberty, discover girls, and hit high school where there are usually more and better options for advanced study, so check back regularly. But I know we've pretty much written off anything but homeschool until at least age 12-14 for exactly the reasons you're describing.

<shrug> It's the right choice for us. Wouldn't be the right choice for everyone. I REALLY wish we had a viable bricks-and-mortar school option instead. I envy those who have a good school fit and still mourn the school life I thought DS7 would have and will never have.

But this will work.

But that isn't what I am saying! I think they are different and one of our jobs as parents is to try to tell the difference. You make a good point about kids needing to distance themselves when situations are too bad for them to be able to cope in other ways. Kids who do that should have their situation addressed. I just don't want every instance of a child daydreaming to be thought of as a sign of abuse. Perhaps I misread your post.

I am saying that a child who can entertain himself when needed (say a long car trip or while waiting his turn in line) without needing to resort to outside entertainment (like electronic games) is different than a person who is checking out to protect themselves from traumatic situations (physically or emotionally). Kids who are abused in various ways do check out and that is bad. Spending 6-8 hours a day being completely left out and bored is neglect which is a form of abuse. If your kid is doing that, then find out what is going on.

But having a kid who looks out the window and daydreams while driving down the highway or waiting in line for lunch, that just doesn't seem like a problem as long as there are plenty of opportunities for engagement in most of the rest of the day or other signs of a problem.

Agreed, though I'd emphasize the boldface part a lot more heavily. I'd also suggest that I think we're talking about a kid daydreaming in school during class, not in the car or in line for lunch. There's a BIG difference there, in my mind!

I think it's important to ask if harm is being done. As long as we're asking, I'm happy, regardless of what the answer is in individual cases.

People can and do practice disengagement in many situations besides abuseful ones.

It's an avoidance strategy, it can be practiced whenever someone wants to avoid a situation they are not immediately able to change.

Like a child sitting in a classroom listening to the teacher explain something for the fifth time that he mastered long ago.

Daydreaming in the car is not the same thing as disengaging during school to avoid boredom.

And only the parent really knows if its happening and if so to what extent.

Personally, I don't think it's a good measure to ask the child if harm is being done. Unless they are teenagers it may be hard to get an accurate report. I think the responsibility is on us parents to make these decisions.

Obviously gratified had made the decision that it isn't a problem, so that's the final word.

Again, I'm offering a different viewpoint based on what I know personally. Indeed, my sister thinks it's a great way for a gifted kid to survive a non-optimum school fit. I've heard the same from others. I just don't buy into it. I think it's a cop-out when the child is in the position to have to adopt this behavior for long periods of time during the school day because their educational needs are not being met.

Key phrase being long periods throughout the day. I think it's harmful and conditions the child to be ineffective and non-productive. Do any of us know people we care about who seem to be "spinning their wheels" a lot of the time?
That's the issue that concerns me.

So, maybe it's less that I'm wondering about gratified's son; and more that the comments hit a nerve with me about something that is a big pet peeve.

Well-put! This is exactly what I think, too.

I've lost track of who this behavior is about, so this is a generic statement. I heard a gifted educator speak about this type of behavior. She said that what sometimes (!) happens is that kids get so used to "checking out" or "avoiding" or "entertaining themselves" or whatever in school settings that they actually tune out too often and miss important things. Gifted kids usually pick up on these gaps pretty quickly but some of them never even know they missed something. Her point was that educators need to make sure that kids are actively involved most of the time (no kid is going to concentrate 100% all the time), especially gifted kids because it is so easy for them to tune out. Then, the gifted kids end up falling through the cracks because "well, if he's gifted, how come he doesn't know xyz?" or "he doesn't know xyz so we must do remedial work".

Ultimately, it is the teacher's job to engage kids. Does it happen with gifted kids? Unfortunately, not that often. The educator I heard emphasized hard that gifted kids need to go deeper AND faster. Didn't happen for us.

Again, my apologies, gratified. Not what I intended to say.

It was a fast and poorly written post intended to continue the conversation about Ruf, not an attack. Honest.

I blew it. I accept that and take responsibility for my poorly written post. But please listen to me when I tell you that I was intending to defned Ruf, not attack you. I was trying to make a general statement about another possible way to view such a response to school from a child, NOT judging your particular child. I was thinking about it in response to your view of Ruf, NOT intending to talk about YOUR child.

The connection with 9/11 is simply that the resarchers imply a commonality between post traumatic stress disorder and using disengagement as a coping strategy.
I found it interesting and relevent, that's it.

I agree that coping skills are necessary and I also teach coping skills to my children and utilize them myself.

You and I disagree on what we consider healthy coping skills.
I think it's fine to agree to disagree.

Squirt - yes my DS's psych said something very similar....that we need to teach him coping strategies (deep breathing exercises to get him through the day) but if it gets to the point that he's checking out so much that he's missing announcements, homework assignments, instruction, then we'll need to deal with the issue of lack of challenge for him.

My son apparently "disengaged" from the classroom by spending up to 30 minutes every morning sharpening a pencil. And we didn't find out about this behavior until AFTER school was over. We were told that he had been doing this for at least the last 9 weeks of school, perhaps most of the last semester, according to the principal. Why the teacher thought this was nothing to tell the parents about is beyond me. And why she allowed it to continue is beyond me even further! It's pretty clear to me that he *is* one of those kids who is checking out and missing important stuff.

He is not a daydreaming sort of kid but one who actively looks around for something interesting when he's bored. It was somewhat disruptive in class as he was bored most of the time. Just this morning he told me that he hates school because he has to do homework "about stuff I already know." His achievement scores indicate that he could possibly be skipped again to 4th grade for the fall but the principal stated "we can't just keep putting him with older kids...and we don't have the resources to teach him any other way." When I suggested that he needed further differentiation and faster pace for curriculum he just nodded and made a note on his paper.

Dr. Ruf makes generalizations about LOG and schooling. But she also considers the personality into it as well. She also looks at the type of school - there's a whole section in her book that classifies schools in terms of programming and opportunities, demographics and such. Gratified, it sounds like your children have been in a much different situation than my son. He was accelerated but last year had a teacher who didn't really care about him, never noticed or appreciated his abilities and even seemed to take pleasure at times in pointing out his faults. And she certainly wasn't interested in communicating with us.

When it is a mismatch you've got to do something. So we've chosen to use Dr. Ruf's expertise to help us figure this all out. I was taken by her comment to me about my son's refusal to go to school last fall that perhaps he is lonely. That thought had never occurred to me. He *seems* happy in terms of friends but his responses on the Social Support Scale he completed indicate that perhaps his friendships are superficial and maybe he's actually yearning for more connection. I'm not sure. I just know there are pieces of him that my husband and I just don't understand. I'm hopeful this testing will help us out.

Me too! If he had a teacher that took a little satisfaction when she was able to "knock him down a peg". That is an abuse.

There are certain words we don't like to hear, like abuse. And perhaps disengage is one of those sensitive words too. Perhaps certain words have such a negative connotation that we avoid using them. And perhaps we don't like to hear other people using them either. If a word provokes a visceral feeling, that doesn't mean we should avoid using it. Actually, I think that's a good time to ask ourselves why. Perhaps it lies with different understandings of definition. I don't know.

But no quotes about it. Mr. Wiggly standing at the pencil sharpener, sharpening his pencil for 30 minutes at a time is Mr. Wiggly disengaging from his class. I'm sorry you had such a bad teacher.

Mr. Wiggly's teacher sounds a lot like C-dog's teacher last year. I actually dropped in and peered in the window unannounced to see what was going on. I saw a circle time story with C-dog sitting way in the back, far from the group with a look of pure pain and sadness. Practically a quivering lip. After school I asked the teacher in an upbeat way: "So how was C-dog today, she seems a little sad?"
"OH NO!, Not at all!" "She had a wonderful day and was very happy?".
She's either severely clueless or simply evil. Haven't figured out which.

In any event, call it what you wish, do with it what you may.


We aren't always going to understand our kids, they are their own little persons! I'm sure Dr. Ruf will be able to give some things to work with in order to help Mr. Wiggly.

Who knows, maybe I'll be taking C-Dog to see her in the future!

She is mean.

I am probably going to sound crazy, but I guess that's nothing new for me...

My ds8 is a dreamer. Big time. he is also a doodler, like his mom.

I think that daydreaming is a massively important part of the creative process...the way we humans come up with some of our biggest ideas!!

I am not advocating for a kid being bored to tears in school, but I do encourage my son to feel comfortable about daydreaming, and doodling.

Since he loves to draw anyway, and often finishes his work earlier than other kids, I am ok with his stuff coming back with lots of drawings on it. I do emphasis that he's got to get the work done first, however! So far at least, no complaints from teachers.

When we're driving I usually try to engage him in conversation but sometimes he'll tell me very politely that he'd rather just daydream than chat. This can be a bit frustrating for me, but usually I am ok with it...I dont know if this is really an 'approved' concept but I do think it's a good skill to have.

I do think it's a good skill to have. Unfortunately my son refused to do it. I think he had the issue early on of daydreaming (making up math problems in his head) then he would miss instructions and not know what to do. This was negative feedback for him on daydreaming. I wish he had some coping skills to help get through the day. The psych taught him breathing exercises but I don't think he does them enough for them to become truely effective.

I tend to agree with Chris. Unless the situation is harmful for a child, a little bit of distraction isn't the worst educational outcome. Some of my best insight into patterns in calculus and my best creative writing came during class time. Although, if this is a normal occurance and causes disruptions, it might be time for a different strategy.

DW and I read the Ruf/Gross books over the weekend.

The books confirm what we are being told by our nanny and friends and by what we see when we compare Mr W ( 7m4d) to peers or even much older kids.

Frankly, between his behavior now and the trajectories mapped in the Ruf/Gross books, its a bit overwhelming.

The books at least give us a roadmap on what to expect because the regular baby books don't fit anymore.

I also just finished up the book (after flipping back and forth through it for the last week), and it was a very interesting read. The thing that was most enlightening was seeing DS4 and DD23mo in some of the upper level kids. I just don't think of them as gifted as DS6 because they didn't have his really early verbal abilities.

I even went back and looked at our home videos and the baby books. It's amazing the things I've forgotten! I remembered that DS6 was saying a couple of simple words at 6 months, I had completely forgotten the video of him at 2.5 months sitting with my mom staring at her mouth and desperately trying to imitate her talking but only managing to get out "ah-goo". That went on for well over half an hour (the video even stops and starts, so his attention span was longer than mine, lol).

I'm still not really clear on exactly which level DS6 fits because while he's now a couple to several years ahead in all academic skills, he only really started talking and reading early (and even the reading wasn't until his 5th birthday). I mostly see him as a 3 with a bit of 4 in him, except that I don't think he did any really precocious math or reading. There was video of him counting the Easter eggs and naming their colors at 26 months, but that's not so unusual I don't think. I also know he had most of his board books memorized by then and I was reading chapter books to him at night, but again, nothing I would really consider so extreme. So, is that the distinction between 1/2 level and 3/4/5 level- that the kids in the upper levels did everything super early or is it that once they picked them up they zoomed ahead?

All in all, I'm glad I had the library get it for me, I think if I owned it I would be tempted to obsess, lol.

This is an non-professional opinion of course , but as someone who didn't think their child was truly GT before kindergarten because he didn't willingly read, I think the 2nd is at least an option. I can't tell you what level he reads at 7 because he reads whatever he wants - the newspaper, encyclopedias, comics, jr. high chapter books, back to 3rd grade chapter books.

I think LOG is a combination of speed of learning vs. exposure to a concept. Parents tend to expose their young kids to stuff they enjoy (or value). My son was more math and science precocious as a preschooler, but we just tended to do that kind of stuff at home. Not that we didn't read with him. We did, but we went from board books to chapter books. I never thought of exposing him to books he could try to read. By the time I got around to that, he was reading chapter books within months.

I was actually at a GT related meeting last night and they offer classes for HG+ kids. They were willing to use a definition of operating 3 or more grade levels above their age as a definition for HG if you didn't have test scores. I'm thinking that would correspond to levels 3,4,5.

Rumor has it that this is what DITD wants to see on the DYS applications, too--3 or more grade levels above age.

And I agree (as usual, kimck!) that both kinds of GT kids exist: those who did everything super early those who zoomed ahead once they picked something up.

Ruf's book was very important to me, but I always like to caution people NOT to use her explanation of levels to try to "rule out" GTness, only to "rule in" kids. If your child resembles the kids she describes, I think you probably have an HG+ child. If not, you may well still have an HG+ child!

Kids are individuals and they present as GT in different ways. Not all are early. Ruf's lists are one tool, but not the only tool.