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Posted By: Angel17156 Wasted Time - 03/26/12 05:30 PM

I'm so tired, so tired of being dismissed saying I'm not ready or I'm not mature enough to be studying at a college. I'm sick of having to degrade my intelligence every single day and it makes me so sad that I can understand in my mind what I want but no one else can. I know in my mind how to articulate it to them but when I try to tell them no one gets it. I've known what I've wanted to do since I was in 7th grade. I know where I need to be and it finally hit me last year how much of my life I was wasting.

It's so upsetting for me to be forced to reducing my intelligence to spending 50 minutes on a front and back fill in the blanks. I want to get away from it, I want to be studying psychology and how the mind works. I can't take it anymore, I'm sick of dealing with people who can't comprehend the most simple concepts. You waste 4 years of your life in high school and for what? To be taught useless concepts that have close to nothing to do with everyday life. Oh you need to learn to write essays in college, then teach them how to write essays. Not me, I understand how to write an essay, someone teach me how to do math that I need for psychology and forensics.Why? Because I have a sinking feeling that I won't need to find the Area of a Rectangle, or the circumfrance of a circle. I can't do a thing about it either, I can't take it.

For some reason can't get any of the adults to understand how much pain it's causing me. I haven't been able to find motivation in any of the school work because I feel so powerless. If anyone can help me find a way to get them to understand, or if anyone feels the same as me please respond. Thank you.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Angel17156
I want to get away from it, I want to be studying psychology and how the mind works. I can't take it anymore, I'm sick of dealing with people who can't comprehend the most simple concepts. You waste 4 years of your life in high school and for what?

The point of high school is to get a college scholarship so that college is free. Also, you want to collect as many small scholarships as possible so that you ideally get paid to go to college.

Of course, it would help if you would explain how old you are and whether you are in high school.
Posted By: aculady Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 07:09 PM
If you are gifted, bored, and want to study psychology and forensics now, the Duke TIP offers Summer Studies courses covering both of these topics.

Financial aid is available. Qualifying is as simple as taking the SAT or ACT and getting scores in the right range.
Posted By: Dude Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 07:46 PM
The purpose of high school is not to prepare you for a specific role in life... that's what college is for. High school is to prepare you for college, and also provide those basic skills everyone should have.

I find calculating area to be very useful in everyday life. Knowing the combined area of my lawns helps me purchase the right amount of fertilizer or insecticides. My wife has taken up the hobby of making clothes, and calculating area helps her buy the right amount of fabric.

I also find myself infrequently calculating the volume of a cylinder, because I can never remember the capacity of my above-ground pool, and this bit of information was critical when I needed to buy a new pump. It also helps me figure out how much chlorine/acid/algaecide to add.

Bottom line: just because a skill doesn't have immediately-obvious uses doesn't mean it won't be useful.

I remember when I was growing up how often people liked to say, "You'll never use algebra after high school." I'm using it right now.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Dude
The purpose of high school is not to prepare you for a specific role in life... that's what college is for. High school is to prepare you for college, and also provide those basic skills everyone should have.

The purpose of college these days is to render you employable. As the student, you want to minimize debt. It's the new high school.

Lots of people have no idea what to go do with themselves in college, but you have to major in *something* to graduate.
Posted By: Dude Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
The purpose of college these days is to render you employable. As the student, you want to minimize debt. It's the new high school.

Lots of people have no idea what to go do with themselves in college, but you have to major in *something* to graduate.

Given the annual double-digit inflation of college costs and prolonged stagnation of wages, I expect we're quickly approaching a tipping point at which the cost of a college education exceeds its benefits. It's at this point where we need to find other ways to educate a workforce.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Dude
Given the annual double-digit inflation of college costs and prolonged stagnation of wages, I expect we're quickly approaching a tipping point at which the cost of a college education exceeds its benefits. It's at this point where we need to find other ways to educate a workforce.

Which is why I said the (economic) point of high school is to get a scholarship so that college is free (assuming that the OP was intelligent enough to do this).

Also, the (economic) benefit of college (to most people), at this point, is to provide a signaling device to employers that the potential employee, is, in fact, employable.

However, in the case of OP, OP is going to need a Psy.D. or a Ph.D., so I would also recommend trying to get through college in three years so as to save 12 months of OP's life. The point of college, in the case of OP being to get into an appropriate graduate school in psychology.
Posted By: lilswee Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 09:24 PM
Curious but which adults? Teachers/Guidance counselor/parents?

Most schools districts have test out options. Teachers unfortunately like to see actual progress not just potential before they recommend advancement/testing out. You have to show them something in the way of results so you need to learn to play the game.

For example, if you feel you know geometry, they should have a test you can take to show proficiency. Back in the day, geometry taught structured logic as well as just how to calculate area, etc. The two subjects of interest could potentially require probability/statistics and higher level physics/chemistry. These can require some amount of calculus. Unfortunately, there is a progression to get to those classes.

Instead of thinking what is wrong with everything, try to find something positive that can make a difference. Ask the district how to test out of subjects. Maybe they have dual enrollment with a jr. college. Take the SATs, get a GED and just go to college? I think it is MIT that has some advanced courses that you can take online (not for credit but for intellectual stimulation). There are many options.
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
The purpose of college these days is to render you employable. As the student, you want to minimize debt. It's the new high school.

Lots of people have no idea what to go do with themselves in college, but you have to major in *something* to graduate.

I expect an attorney to be more careful to avoid stating his opinions as facts. Sure, for many college students, the main purpose of college is to get a better job than they would otherwise, but there are people who attend college out of intellectual curiosity, and some of their parents will be found on a gifted forum. A person whose only question about every college class is "how will this get me a job" will learn less -- and perhaps in the future earn less -- than someone who has a respect for learning and is willing to learn things with no immediate application.
Posted By: AlexsMom Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
OP is going to need a Psy.D. or a Ph.D., so I would also recommend trying to get through college in three years so as to save 12 months of OP's life. The point of college, in the case of OP being to get into an appropriate graduate school in psychology.


Amen to that. As someone with a bachelor's in Psych, I vote that it's about the most worthless 4-year degree for employability.

Originally Posted by Bostonian
I expect an attorney to be more careful to avoid stating his opinions as facts.


Haven't met many attorneys, have you? wink
Posted By: bzylzy Re: Wasted Time - 03/26/12 10:31 PM
AlexsMom you always make me laugh.

But a serious response to the original poster, if you read around in many of these threads many of us are parents that are trying to make sure that the situation you are in and how you feel doesn't happen to our kids.

I guess you should take a practical approach and figure out what you don't like, prioritize it, consider any practical solutions and present them. I don't know what you've tried already but if it was more vague (not that it's a criticism, because I've learned from experience) the people you are appealing to will be less likely to take it seriously.

I'm a "grown up" and I've had to learn this while advocating for my child. People that you are advocating to do not necessarily connect the dots. Present them with a plan and they may punch holes in it, but at least you can take it, tweak it, and start again.

And the online learning thing is a great idea, maybe looking forward to that for this summer will cheer you up.

Things always look more dismal when you're a young person, but there is a big world out there and the fact that you took the initiative to post here shows that you're already on your way. You should feel really good about that.
Posted By: Val Re: Wasted Time - 03/27/12 02:15 AM
I find that a little compassion goes a long way sometimes.

Sometimes, stuff seems pointless because you still don't see the big picture of why you're learning it. You can't yet, because you're still learning the basics. Some math books try to tell students why subjects like geometry and algebra are important, but from what I've seen, they mostly miss the big picture.

I, too, wondered if I'd ever use geometry when I took it, but by a few years later, I had really started to see how a solid foundation of mathematics could help me in many areas. The logical way of thinking I learned in geometry helped me learn how to structure an expository essay when I was a freshman in college. Solving lots and lots of geometry and algebra problems helped me understand statistics with greater speed and accuracy than would have been possible otherwise. And of course, statistics are really important in psychology.
Posted By: ElizabethN Re: Wasted Time - 03/27/12 02:22 AM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Your message does not make me think you are ready for college. You can't even spell correctly the topics that you dismiss. If you want to study psychology seriously, you will need to learn a good bit of statistics, but it appears that math bores you.

Not to mention that you need to learn the difference between "degrade" and "denigrate."

I'm sorry you find your current work pointless, and I wish you were able to enjoy what you have. But there's no rush to get to college - finish as much as you can while it's free! Life is not a race, it's a journey.

I do think that geometry was one of the most important classes of high school. Learning how to do a rigorous proof didn't only help me with my engineering Ph.D., it helped me with my JD. And statistics is absolutely vital to your chosen path of study.
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Wasted Time - 03/27/12 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by Dude
Given the annual double-digit inflation of college costs and prolonged stagnation of wages, I expect we're quickly approaching a tipping point at which the cost of a college education exceeds its benefits. It's at this point where we need to find other ways to educate a workforce.

For students who are smart and motivated enough, there are cheaper ways to get a college education than to spend four years at a residential college, but for many career paths they still need the B.A. credential. Clarence Page has written some columns in the Chicago Tribune about alternatives to the B.A. I have posted articles about MITx (still under development) and other online schools.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-0311-page-20120311,0,6116617.column
A GED for college?
March 11, 2012

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-0325-page-20120325,0,3490586.column
Has college become too easy?
March 25, 2012
Posted By: ABQMom Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 05:16 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...han-college-not-going-to-college/255073/

Found this appropriate for the conversation ...
Posted By: ultramarina Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 01:26 PM
I saw that article, ABQ, ands found it interesting but potentially somewhat wrong-headed. Here is a good comment someone posted:

(below is from the article)

"Statistics like this are a good reminder that, even though college
tuition is famously outpacing median incomes, there is still something
more expensive than going to school. Very often, that is not going to
school."

(now the comment)

The most expensive, of course, is going to school and not finishing. If, say, 70% of marginal college students wouldn't graduate (currently half of students don't finish their program in 5 to 6 years- http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/p... - and there's probably a selection effect that means the marginal students would do worse), how does that change the rate of return?"
Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 02:06 PM
We are at the stage now where the entire debt origination structure of college and graduate education is beginning to roll over because the costs of debt are making it a poor financial investment.

This is happening in the law school complex.

I don't think it's quite to the undergrad complex yet, but it's really trashing law students, who generally have over $100,000 debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

I think that college is still a good deal, but it's rapidly moving toward a bad deal.

Give it a few years.
Posted By: ultramarina Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 04:40 PM
I think I agree, Jon. I have really revised my expectations and opened my mind re: my kids and college. DH and I both went to expensive private colleges that we really loved, but I can't see saddling my children with that kind of debt in this economy....even with high-ability kids, I'm wary (though I reserve much of my opinion till they're college-age). We may strongly push for an honors college at a state school instead. I feel a little sad about the idea, but more sad about the idea of them having to spend so many years getting out from under their loans. I know a LOT of people my age (pushing 40) who are still saddled with a mountain of debt (usually grad school, though not always). Some are just starting out in their careers, and they generally have kids to put through college and a retirement to save for. It looks nightmarish, and I'm very grateful that my own small loans are long paid off and that DH's grad school was entirely subsidized (he's a scientist). This has given us so much freedom. We both have relatively low-earning but interesting service-oriented jobs in government, which suits us. If we had mega-loans, we'd both likely be working in corporate America. I used to freelance for pharma companies who paid me much better than I'm being paid now, 15 years later, but I hated it.
Posted By: Austin Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by ultramarina
(now the comment)

The most expensive, of course, is going to school and not finishing. If, say, 70% of marginal college students wouldn't graduate (currently half of students don't finish their program in 5 to 6 years- http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/p... - and there's probably a selection effect that means the marginal students would do worse), how does that change the rate of return?"

From the failed students' perspective, it is a disaster. Had they taken a skilled trades approach, they would have a paying job and marketable skills and much less debt.

From a social perspective, it is a disaster. Lives delayed and capital sunk with zero return.

Most people do not need to go to college.
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by ultramarina
I think I agree, Jon. I have really revised my expectations and opened my mind re: my kids and college. DH and I both went to expensive private colleges that we really loved, but I can't see saddling my children with that kind of debt in this economy....even with high-ability kids, I'm wary (though I reserve much of my opinion till they're college-age). We may strongly push for an honors college at a state school instead.

Are you aware of the financial aid policies of the Ivies? Don't assume that they will be more expensive for your child than a public university. Plug your data into a financial aid calculator and find out.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/09/harvard%E2%80%99s-record-166-million-financial-aid-program-will-increase-aid-to-low-income-students-and-provide-a-new-financial-aid-calculator-for-students-and-families/
"As students from the Class of 2016 use the calculator, they will see that families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0 to 10 percent of income, depending on individual circumstances. Beginning with the Class of 2016, families with incomes between $150,000 and $180,000 will be asked to pay slightly more than 10 percent of income."
Posted By: bzylzy Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 05:24 PM
I think what ultramarina mentioned about freedom is very important to me anyway and I'd keep it in mind when supporting my DD with college and career choices/ideas. Often the huge debt, if you are looking at that possibility, does dictate the type of work that you have to go into when you graduate. You have to consider your personality and if you could tolerate it.

My DD wants to attend this particlar high school we drive past because it has the word "Technical" carved into the old facade. (And it's not a bad idea because they get kids ready for either a skilled job or a college program, it has a good reputation).

She wants a car, a part time job, and she might go to college part-time. I think she hears alot about college, college, college from her bunch of older cousins. She's only 8 and this is her idea. She has many years to decide and of course we would like her to have many options available and it's natural when you have a bright kid to think high like the Ivies. But she might just be on to something. She is very self-propelled and practical and I think, being very realistic, if she has the right tools and confidence she'll head where she instinctively needs to be. I want her to be safe and for her to feel productive and not compromised.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Are you aware of the financial aid policies of the Ivies? Don't assume that they will be more expensive for your child than a public university. Plug your data into a financial aid calculator and find out.

I think the general consensus here is that the Ivies have become a crap shoot.

Oh, and they take into account net assets, too.

I'm not making six figures, my wife makes less than five figures, and it tells me that it will still cost me over six figures to send my child to school there.
Posted By: Lori H. Re: Wasted Time - 03/28/12 07:35 PM
I think my daughter felt the same way about school. She went into kindergarten already reading and for a while she seemed to like school. She got awards for reading and math in elementary school. Teachers liked her. I heard only good things about her in elementary.

Then it all changed in middle school. School was boring. She hated math and didn't know why she needed to learn what she was being taught. She didn't like the way the teachers taught. She became a cheerleader. Academics wasn't important. I got phone calls from her teachers who told me she was a smart girl but she wasn't paying attention in class because she was spending too much time socializing. She went to a community college for a while but couldn't stand living where we live so she moved to Dallas at 19 and worked her way up into jobs that allowed her to live the lifestyle she wanted. She could afford to travel and live in a nice apartment. The really good job she has now required that she pass an employment test. She said it had a lot of math on it, including some algebra, and it was timed. She made a higher score than most of the other applicants who had earned college degrees. She got the job. Some of the people with college degrees didn't. She was glad that she had learned a lot of math at her previous job as an office manager for a small furniture company. She had to use a lot of math on that job. In high school she had no way of knowing what she would be doing five or ten years later. She didn't "plan" to work at any of the jobs she had as a young adult, she just took the best jobs she could find and learned as much as she could learn on those jobs. In my experience and hers there is just so much of life that cannot be planned so it is best to learn as much as you can possibly learn while you have the chance even if it is boring and even if it doesn't seem like you will ever use it. I am so glad that she is able to share her life experiences with her little brother. She is able to give him really good advice because of her experiences.

My 13-year-old son hates geometry and that is what he has been working on lately. We homeschool and I let him put off learning some of it the last few years. He took several months off from doing any math because he has to wear a painful brace all day, every day, and now in addition to dealing with that kind of pain he is doing three math lessons a day to catch up so he can be finished by June. So when you are thinking about the pain it is causing you, just know that it could be worse.

By the way, as a homeschool mom I am having to relearn math that I haven't done in a very long time and I have a son who is not satisfied with knowing how it is done, he wants to understand why. I was never taught why. I am too tired and too stressed to even try to figure out why, but he usually figures it out on his own while he is figuring out alternate ways of solving problems so that he can answer questions doing less writing than I have to do to get the same answer. He has dysgraphia, which is another pain.

We have learned to just push through the pain. If we can do it, so can you. It is worth it.



Posted By: aculady Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 12:24 AM
If you are looking for resources for more advanced math than calculating simple areas and circuferences, try:

patrickjmt

The Hippocampus - this
site also has psychology content

Brightstorm


You might want to brush up on those English skills, too. You can do so here:


Purdue's OWL
Posted By: ultramarina Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 02:23 AM
Hmm--that's a guarantee now, Bostonian? But perhaps only at the Ivies, with their endowments. Still. My kids are damned smart, and the older one is highly motivated (it's a little early to tell about Mr. 4), but I don't know if either will excel at the insane amount of hoop-jumping that now appears necessary to get into an Ivy. It's not impossible, but boy, I don't intend to count on it. And that's assuming they'd want to go to one. I probably wouldn't have gotten into any Ivys--I avoided AP calc and did not even take a science my senior year--but I also did not want to apply to them. I went to a very competitive HS that was geographically very close to an Ivy and I'd had enough of that whole scene.
Posted By: Val Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
We are at the stage now where the entire debt origination structure of college and graduate education is beginning to roll over because the costs of debt are making it a poor financial investment.

I think that college is still a good deal, but it's rapidly moving toward a bad deal.

Give it a few years.

I played around with Harvard's college costs calculator. It was pretty scary.

Here's one scenario: You live in an expensive state (NJ), have $100,000 in annual income, 5 kids, $20K in savings, and $300,000 equity in your house. Harvard estimates you should pay $23,600, with $3,000 from a student job at Harvard. That's $20,600. Take off $1,600 in summer job money, and $19,000 is left. Throw in plane fare to Boston and you're looking at about $20,000. If you have no equity, the estimate goes down to $12,600. So that means they expect you to pull a fair bit out of your house.

How realistic is this? I made these assumptions:

  • You pay 12% Federal tax; FICA is 7.65%
  • State tax is 12.2%
  • You pay $2,000 a month for your house
  • You pay 2.5% property tax on a house worth $400,000
  • You spend $1,200 a month for food
  • You spend another $1,000 a month for miscellaneous expenses like insurance for your two cars and your house, utilities, home consumables (cleaning supplies, pet food, etc.), clothing, phone bills, TV, gas for the cars etc.


At this point, what's left is way below $20,600 ($7,750), and you haven't paid for health insurance, medical expenses, and all that other stuff that comes up constantly, like sick pets, the oven died, my car needs new brakes, etc. etc. Let's just hope your roof and your cars have a lot of life left in them.

So Little Johnny will be taking out something like $20,000 in loans for year one, which, given the way costs increase every year, puts him well on the way to six-figure-debt when he's done. Unless you turn your house into an ATM and/or use all your savings to get through one year. If you try to pay back the lost equity in a year...well, you can't, so at least you'll have less equity (or no savings) next year when they do the calculation. Though your expenses and home equity debt will go up every year.

And if you have two kids in college, they only take $5,000 off their estimate. Hmm. That arithmetic doesn't work for me.

So the choice is for your kids to end up deep in debt or for you to end up with little or no home equity as you approach retirement. Great!

Sorry, that's broken. Our whole educational model is broken. College is a certification borderline-racket rather than a means to create thoughtful citizens who contribute to the nation, student loans are a multibillion dollar business, and you can't even discharge your debt if you die.

smile grin smile grin But everyone should go to college! smile grin smile grin


frown

/rant
Posted By: Austin Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by Val
smile grin smile grin But everyone should go to college! smile grin smile grin

Great analysis Val. Its even worse from a net present value of the cost of the debt plus the HELOC.

Compare the cost of an Ivy education plus an MS vs a kid getting a Cisco cert right out of HS earned while in HS. By the age of the MS grad, the kid will be making six figures with no debt vs upper doubles and 200K in debt for the Ivy educated kid.

If the HS kid plays his cards right, he can finish his BS on the corporate dime then go get an MBA as well on the company dime. Playing his cards right the kid can be a CIO or CFO by 35 and again have no debt.

Or, take that equity and form his own firm vs the Ivy grad with little financial room to maneuver.

Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 12:18 PM
Originally Posted by Val
Sorry, that's broken. Our whole educational model is broken. College is a certification borderline-racket rather than a means to create thoughtful citizens who contribute to the nation, student loans are a multibillion dollar business, and you can't even discharge your debt if you die.

Student loan debt collection is a billion dollar business that's poised for exceptional growth in the future! So you can always get a job going after student load deadbeats.

"The debt collector on the other end of the phone gave Oswaldo Campos an ultimatum:

Pay $219 a month toward his more than $20,000 in defaulted student loans, or Pioneer Credit Recovery, a contractor with the U.S. Education Department, would confiscate his pay. Campos, disabled from liver disease, makes about $20,000 a year.

“We’re not playing here,” Campos recalled the collector telling him in December. “You’re dealing with the federal government. You have no other options.”

Campos agreed to have the money deducted each month from his bank account, even though federal student-loan rules would let him pay less and become eligible for a plan -- approved by Congress and touted by President Barack Obama -- requiring him to lay out about $50 a month. To satisfy Pioneer, Campos borrowed from friends, cut meat from his diet and stopped buying gas to drive his 82-year-old mother to doctor’s visits for her Parkinson’s Disease.

With $67 billion of student loans in default, the Education Department is turning to an army of private debt-collection companies to put the squeeze on borrowers. Working on commissions that totaled about $1 billion last year, these government contractors face growing complaints that they are violating federal laws by insisting on stiff payments, even when borrowers’ incomes make them eligible for leniency."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ors-profiting-from-student-loan-woe.html

Posted By: Bostonian Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by ultramarina
Hmm--that's a guarantee now, Bostonian? But perhaps only at the Ivies, with their endowments. Still. My kids are damned smart, and the older one is highly motivated (it's a little early to tell about Mr. 4), but I don't know if either will excel at the insane amount of hoop-jumping that now appears necessary to get into an Ivy. It's not impossible, but boy, I don't intend to count on it.

No one should count on it. The Harvard student newspaper reports that "Regular Admits May See 3% Acceptance Rate" http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/3/27/three-percent-admission-2016/ . But my point is that people should not assume that the net cost of attending the Ivies will be higher than that of attending state schools.
Posted By: Bostonian Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Val
Here's one scenario: You live in an expensive state (NJ), have $100,000 in annual income, 5 kids, $20K in savings, and $300,000 equity in your house.

The equity in your primary residence does not affect your expected contribution. The calculator at http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ has a box for "real estate equity", but the accompanying note says "This should represent the fair market value of your ownership share of any real estate (excluding your primary residence) not already reflected in the Business/Farm section, less your share of any debts."

Harvard says at http://www.fao.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do that
"We do not consider home equity or retirement accounts as resources in our determination of a family contribution, and aid packages do not include any loans."

Posted By: ultramarina Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 01:12 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Bostonian. Of course it's a little difficult to predict what our income will be when my oldest child reaches 18 (I currently work half-time), but that calculator does give me a livable number. Of course, I'm hoping to save more for college by then, but I didn't up that # much. I actually suspect that we would be better off NOT saving very much for college (and putting our "excess" money into retirement accounts instead--aren't those pretty much sacrosanct?), given that our total income is still likely to be under 6 figures by the time our kids reach college age.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
The equity in your primary residence does not affect your expected contribution. The calculator at http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ has a box for "real estate equity", but the accompanying note says "This should represent the fair market value of your ownership share of any real estate (excluding your primary residence) not already reflected in the Business/Farm section, less your share of any debts."

The problem is that it punishes savers.

For instance, I don't really contribute to retirement accounts due to my inability to foresee tax changes 20 years down the road, but rather, I save mostly cash. I also recently downsized my house.

So I'm expected to use my retirement money to pay for the school just because it's not in a "retirement account."
Posted By: ABQMom Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 01:27 PM
So maybe Johnny shouldn't go to Harvard.

Maybe he should move to a high poverty state in his junior year of high school that offers lottery scholarships for anyone who has been a resident for a year and is capable of maintaining a C average.

Just pointing out that extreme scenarios don't paint a realistic picture. I'm not saying student debt isn't an issue, but going to Harvard isn't a necessity. We told our kids when they started mid school that if they wanted to go to MIT - or any out of state school - they'd better get the grades to earn a scholarship. Otherwise they could go in-state. If they don't value their education enough to work for the grades to get there, we're sure not dumping good money after it.

Posted By: Bostonian Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by ABQMom
Just pointing out that extreme scenarios don't paint a realistic picture. I'm not saying student debt isn't an issue, but going to Harvard isn't a necessity. We told our kids when they started mid school that if they wanted to go to MIT - or any out of state school - they'd better get the grades to earn a scholarship. Otherwise they could go in-state. If they don't value their education enough to work for the grades to get there, we're sure not dumping good money after it.

You are not being realistic. Nowadays even straight A's and close-to-perfect SATs are NOT guarantees of merit scholarships.
If your child does not get a merit scholarship, it does NOT mean he did not try his best in high school. The most selective schools, including the Ivies, MIT, and Stanford, do not offer merit scholarships.

Whether the extra cost of an Ivy is worth it (and whether there is an extra cost to begin with, as I have discussed) are separate questions.
Posted By: ABQMom Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 02:20 PM
Um, the cost after lottery scholarship for our in-state tuition is $700 a semester. Definitely lower cost, and there are plenty of folks with degrees from MIT who are not earning any more than the folks with engineering degrees from state schools. There is no way I'd fork out $100,000 per year for tuition when I don't think the difference in salaries or opportunities is worth that kind of money vs. $1400 per year..
Posted By: ultramarina Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 04:30 PM
Quote
If your child does not get a merit scholarship, it does NOT mean he did try his best in high school. The most selective schools, including the Ivies, MIT, and Stanford, do not offer merit scholarships.

There are always National Merit Scholarships. I had one (I did very well on the verbal SAT and my father worked for a large corporation). I'm not sure how much easier or harder it is to get one these days. Mine covered about 1/4 of the cost of tuition, but of course, tuition was lower then.
Posted By: ultramarina Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 04:34 PM
Just have to share that I just went to check out the NMS website and Stephanie Meyer--you know, the author of Twilight--is one their list of "Scholars You May Know."

NMS just went down a notch in my book!
Posted By: polarbear Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
[quote=ABQMom]
If your child does not get a merit scholarship, it does NOT mean he did try his best in high school. The most selective schools, including the Ivies, MIT, and Stanford, do not offer merit scholarships.

Just an aside - while those colleges may not offer merit scholarships, there are organizations separate from colleges that do offer merit-based scholarships that can be used at whichever university or college a student enrolls in - my dh is on the board of one of those organizations that offers scholarships to graduating high school seniors in our area.

polarbear
Posted By: aculady Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by ultramarina
Just have to share that I just went to check out the NMS website and Stephanie Meyer--you know, the author of Twilight--is one their list of "Scholars You May Know."

NMS just went down a notch in my book!

I don't know...is it smarter from the author's persepctive to write a book that only 2% of the population can read and appreciate, that only a fraction of that group will buy, and that has little to no chance of becoming a profitable film, or one that can be read (and bought) by a much larger group, with the potential for lucrative movie deals? It really depends on whether you believe authors should be artists who create without regard for economics, or whether it is fine for them to be tradespersons who turn out a saleable product that meets popular demand.

I hate the Twilight books, but I'm not their intended audience, and I don't think that I'd disparage their author as being somehow less intelligent just because she managed to write something with mass appeal. Remember that the average adult reading level in the US is around the 8th grade level, and people choose leisure reading that is written around 2 grade levels below what they are capable of comprehending. She knew her market...
Posted By: Dude Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
You are not being realistic. Nowadays even straight A's and close-to-perfect SATs are NOT guarantees of merit scholarships.
If your child does not get a merit scholarship, it does NOT mean he did try his best in high school. The most selective schools, including the Ivies, MIT, and Stanford, do not offer merit scholarships.

Though I didn't quite push myself in effort to the stupid levels required for competing for an Ivy school, I still took the scholarships lie hook, line, and sinker.

In 1992 I had an unweighted GPA of 3.79 (weighted would have been somewhere around 4.49), a 1300 SAT (1250 was good enough for Mensa), a gold seal on my diploma from the California Scholastic Federation, and applications to a mix of expensive private and fairly inexpensive state schools.

Merit scholarships: a few hundred dollars from local contributors like the Elks Lodge, barely enough to buy books.

Hah.
Posted By: ABQMom Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by polarbear
Originally Posted by Bostonian
[quote=ABQMom]
If your child does not get a merit scholarship, it does NOT mean he did try his best in high school. The most selective schools, including the Ivies, MIT, and Stanford, do not offer merit scholarships.

Just wanted to clarify that quote attributed to me wasn't actually by me.
Posted By: ElizabethN Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by polarbear
Just an aside - while those colleges may not offer merit scholarships, there are organizations separate from colleges that do offer merit-based scholarships that can be used at whichever university or college a student enrolls in - my dh is on the board of one of those organizations that offers scholarships to graduating high school seniors in our area.

I don't know what it's like now, but in 1986, I tried to fund an education at MIT with those type of scholarships. I applied for dozens, and got four, I think. They were generally prestigious scholarships, but they didn't total as much as one semester's tuition. Then MIT just reduced my financial aid by the amount of the scholarships, so it really didn't help me at all.

I went to Berkeley for a year, then transferred. Once my parents had two kids in college, instead of one, they could afford the amount that MIT wanted them to contribute (also, they'd been able to observe me being miserable at Berkeley for a year).
Posted By: Val Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by ElizabethN
Then MIT just reduced my financial aid by the amount of the scholarships, so it really didn't help me at all.

Yep, same thing happened to me. The college reduced my grant, not my loan. I was pretty angry about it. The money was supposed to help ME, not the college! The scholarship people were going to give me money every semester for four years. I wrote them after I got a new financial aid package that reduced the college grant and told them to give the scholarship to someone else who really needed it.
Posted By: ultramarina Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 07:26 PM
Well, I was being a bit snarky about Meyers. True, if you measure intelligence by ability to make a buck producing bad art--then she's a genius. I agree that it's a skill. But if I were a scholarship organization trying to prove how erudite my recipients turned out to be, I'm not sure I'd point to her in particular.
Posted By: Val Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
The equity in your primary residence does not affect your expected contribution. The calculator at http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ has a box for "real estate equity", but the accompanying note says "This should represent the fair market value of your ownership share of any real estate (excluding your primary residence) not already reflected in the Business/Farm section, less your share of any debts."

Harvard says at http://www.fao.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do that
"We do not consider home equity or retirement accounts as resources in our determination of a family contribution, and aid packages do not include any loans."

Thanks. I had completely missed that.
Posted By: Lori H. Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 07:37 PM
My husband is supposed to retire in less than a year and is old enough to draw early social security now. There is no way we will be able to afford to take out a home equity loan when our 13 year old is ready for college. We have not been able to save much money for college because our son has medical issues, our house needed expensive repairs last year and our almost 14 year old car needed thousands of dollars of repairs which wiped out the little savings we had, and we live in a rural area where nothing is close to us so that means we have to use a lot of very expensive gas to go anywhere. I am also homeschooling my son and taking care of my elderly dad who lives next door which means I can't go out and get a job. My son will have difficulty working a part time job to help with college expenses because of his medical issues.

I absolutely have to find a way to get my son through college without leaving him in debt. He is saying now that he thinks he shouldn't go to college because of our finances. Because of his disabilities he will not be able to work at any job that requires any kind of physical endurance--even standing for more than 30 minutes is painful.

I don't know if he will be able to take the ACT or SAT that might qualify him for scholarships because he would have difficulty sitting and paying attention for that long in a very uncomfortable brace. There is only one chair in our house that he can sit in comfortably and even then he takes breaks and lies down in bed to get through the pain. If he takes the brace off, he has back pain after about 30 minutes. When you add in the dysgraphia it just looks like it would be very difficult for him to take such a long test.



Posted By: Grinity Re: Wasted Time - 03/29/12 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Lori H.
He is saying now that he thinks he shouldn't go to college because of our finances.
Lori, have you spoken to the people at

QuestBridge connects the world's brightest low-income students to America's best universities and opportunities.

Please give them a call and see if they can help you get accomidations for the SAT/ACT for your son.
Good luck,
Grinity
Posted By: aculady Re: Wasted Time - 03/30/12 02:33 AM
Lori,

Given his documented diagnoses, including his difficulties sitting for extended periods of time, your son would almost certainly qualify for accomodations on the ACT and SAT, including large block answer sheet (no bubbling!), frequent breaks, taking the test in short sessions across mulitple days, and use of a keyboard on the SAT writing section. He'd probably also get a private testing room, just because the frequent breaks and extended time would make it impractical to test him in the same room with students who didn't have the same accomodations, so any hesitancy you or he might have about making him look diferent in front of his peers shouldn't play into it. He's old enough that you should start applying now - it can take a few months to get accomodations approved, but for the SAT at least, once the accomodations are approved, the approval is good through the end of high school.

I want to point out that the only way he is guaranteed to not make the scores he wants on the SAT and ACT is if he doesn't take them. If he completely bombs the tests, well, then he needs to either figure out a way to do better the next time (you can retake the tests) or figure out another way to accomplish his goals and show what he can do. But not trying is a terrible approach, and a nasty habit to get into so young.
Posted By: bzylzy Re: Wasted Time - 03/30/12 10:42 AM
Lori H., it sounds like your son definitely has been exposed to the financial concerns faced by your family, which probably couldn't be helped. My mother was the oldest of a bunch and was needed to deal with things based on lack of money and parental illness as young as 11 or 12. I can tell you from being raised by her that these things stick with a person for a lifetime.

If you can take any advice people on this board give you (like aculady's very constructive advice) and any and all info gathered regarding scholarships and things, and go over it step-by-step with your son, it would help counteract what your son has internalized so far and help him re-visualize his dream to attend college in several years. I know it's easier for me to write this than for you to do it. Wish you luck...
Posted By: ABQMom Re: Wasted Time - 03/30/12 02:38 PM


About 2/3 through this video there is a profile of a man who is helping college students get the accommodations they need. Maybe watching videos like this will help change your son's view of what is possible.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: Wasted Time - 04/18/12 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by harun
you said that you feel always tired.SO I thinh you should take vitamin tablet like Revital

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Some call me the gangster of love.

Some people call me Maurice.
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