Link here

Quite terrifying stuff (story ends better for its initial subject than its ominous start would suggest).

Never heard of 'lawn mower' parents before either - something to self-monitor for, for sure...

Just read that story this morning. Definitely something to think about.

I read that earlier as well. I'm thinking the key things to watch for are perfectionism (as opposed to trying to meet a goal or objective as well as one can) and fostering independence (vs. reliance on parents). In my career, I've had the privilege of working with fresh graduates and the perfectionism thing can really be crippling if not addressed.

I read an article a few months ago that focused on Madison Holleran - interesting to see the contrast. You're right that it's scary stuff.

Thanks for the link, this is something I find very interesting since I have a DD who is at university. This is a big topic of discussion with my rl friends whom have college age kids. The article hits very close to home. Can't talk details here because they aren't my story's to tell. But I find it easy to believe the statement "Anxiety and depression, in that order, are now the most common mental health diagnoses among college students"

Hmmm.

You know what OTHER connection there is between college, female freshman, and shame?


Well, for as many as one in five of them-- it's sexual assault, that's what.

But that wouldn't be the fault of parents though-- so I can see why nobody would want that particular connection to be made. But it's the very first thing that I thought of when I read Madison Holleran's heartbreaking story. I wonder. I was that faculty member that students disclosed to for a number of years-- and I will say that a lot of those broken and wounded young women that I saw never told their parents why they were suddenly struggling academically. NEVER. They would have died rather than have their parents know.

I believe that one in five is probably a somewhat conservative estimate by the time that they graduate, by the way.

In those kinds of numbers, that IS a mental health driver on a campus.

Totally agree with HK on this one….

Ah, yes. Another way to blame parents. Just what we needed. HK is spot on.

I think it is an overestimate.

One in Five?
By Jake New
Inside Higher Education
December 15, 2014

If you read the BJC report:

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

you'll also note that the follow-up interviews also estimate that 80% of sexual assaults in college-age female students are not reported to law enforcement. I think whether it is an over or underestimate (and my bias is in the under direction), it is clear that we do not have a good research or societal handle on either the behavior or its prevalence.

Scaling the 6.1 in 1000 statistic I cited earlier by a factor of 5 to account for under-reporting results in a proportion of 30.5/1000 or about 3%, far lower than the 1-in-5 statistic.

HK is right, this certainly is another factor. I'm not sure if it explains suicide rates for the male students, though. Perhaps it does.

I still think there are other, societal pressures, internalized, at work as well.

Sexual assault is serious problem that is nonetheless less a very different one from the one on the OP.

I've met enough parents who bleat about IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS! and ALL As! that I've been thoroughly disgusted with them (and the admissions committees that feed the frenzy) for many years.

I live in an area where teenagers step in front of trains to escape the pressures of the local high schools. Most of them are boys (who are at lower risk of sexual assault), as are most college students who kill themselves (do a web search). Around here, teenagers in high-pressure school districts spend much of their summer vacations studying in the local libraries and elsewhere. They aren't there for the love of AP Calc; they're there because they're being compliant, and most of them look like they'd rather be somewhere else. I taught at a local skating rink. On my first day, they told me to stay in the center of the rink on report card day to avoid being browbeaten by parents who were irate that their little success machines didn't pass the beta 2 level. I saw parents berating their kids over this stuff, and very, very unhappy kids on the ice, including those who had the potential to do well in big competitions. They frowned their way through beautiful axels while parental units stood at the wall frowning in judgment.

Unreasonable parental expectations are toxic, especially when they center on external appearances, which is what this stuff is all about.

They are snowplow parents.

Not lawnmower parents.

Wrong analogy.

Sexual assault is serious problem that is nonetheless less a very different one from the one on the OP.

Yes, it is-- and I'm not denying that the problem, as posited in the OP, exists. Just that maybe the two problems aren't as distinct as it might at first appear.

I'm suggesting that even the students themselves may be more comfortable outwardly LABELING causation in one way, and the reality is probably considerably more nuanced. I've seen a fair number of students who initially wanted to label their problems as several other things, but who eventually opened up about the fact that it was actually that they'd been raped or assaulted. THEY didn't always make the connection that they had developed PTSD and were struggling because of mental illness brought on by trauma. It makes sense that this would lead to academic difficulties, of course-- but not to many college students, it doesn't. Even if it does, it just leads to more shame from many of the former high-achievers-- because they see it as "weak" that they are struggling in the face of it.

Again, this relates to external appearances-- because perfect children certainly don't get raped at parties where there is underage drinking, for example. And that does seem to be the prevailing thinking on what "campus sexual assault" looks like. (It doesn't always.)

Bostonian, while I respect that there are not solid numbers (and may never be, thanks to the vast under-reporting which occurs)-- my own observations tend to reflect the recent numbers of 80% being "at the hands of someone I knew/trusted" and 90% unreported to authorities, and somewhere around 1 in 10 being actually forcibly raped. I know a lot of university professors, and I know NOT ONE who thinks that 1-in-5 is inflated, if that says anything. What they do tend to think (erroneously, IME) is that it happens to "bad" girls who are making "bad" choices, and that therefore it won't happen to their oh-so-savvy children. I think that most parents do, actually. The truth is that students this happens to never see it coming-- which is sort of the point. {sigh}

The numbers of young men who are sexually assaulted are likely far, far higher than the 1 in 20 or so which has been estimated, as well. THOSE students really never tell anyone. But they do seem to commit suicide in greater numbers than their female counterparts.

Yes, toxic expectations from parents are a huge part of this. But-- as CD notes, some of this isn't even coming from parents, per se. It's pervasive now in the cultural landscape.

Imagine how that percentage of students who are sexually assaulted (however large or small one believes the percentage to be) responds in light of that landscape. Shame is a polite euphemism, probably-- and the response of campuses to reporting is cold comfort. It's far, far easier to make (damaged, struggling) victims go away than their assailants-- so many victims never say a word for fear of losing all that they've worked so hard to attain. They (most of them) would be best off taking a term or two off, but few of them are willing to say so, because they fear (as noted in the article) that their mental health woes will be used against them-- that they'll be seen as a liability in readmission.

The entire landscape is pretty horrifying, honestly. When you look at just how sparse mental health services are on campuses, it's mind-boggling that the problem of hospitalizations and suicides/attempts isn't worse than it is.

Don't most adults spend their working lives "complying" in order to get paid? Are the teens spending several hours a day studying worse off than those who are working full time at entry level jobs in the summer? There should still be time for sports and socializing.

Someone from Lexington, MA (a town with high-performing schools) told me that some students, especially Asian-Americans, take unofficial AP courses over the summer, so that a course load of 5-6 AP courses during the school year will be more manageable -- they will have already seen some of the material.

Our children are in Russian School of Math so they can get an "edge" in math. My eldest son, a rising 8th grader, has taken two AOPS courses in Python programming and will take more programming classes before high school. In high school he will have an edge over students for which AP Computer Science is their first programming experience. I don't think we are doing anything wrong.

Bostonian, I think that the thing which distinguishes whether or not that sort of thing is supportive (versus unhealthy pressure) depends upon the level of misery induced in the child.

Yes, adults do spend their lives working-- however, long ago we opted to protect children with child-labor laws. I'm thinking that the reason we did that might relate to the reason why we no longer have workhouses, too.



I've seen kids participating in such things alongside my DD (who was willingly present), and a fair number of them were not there by choice. Some of them already looked like trapped animals, quite frankly. They were miserable, and they were so constrained that they had no idea what they wanted to do instead-- just that they didn't want to be doing what they were doing, but were powerless to fight against the rising tide of parental (and societal?) will.




Let me also add that THOSE kids-- the ones that are already showing signs like that in high school, during the height of the "admissions" race, are the ones that the OP's article is referring to. I'm suggesting in my posts that after the fact, it may not be so easy to tease apart which of them are that versus which of them are kids who genuinely were riding the wave and driving a lot of it themselves-- until they experienced some kind of precipitating trauma during that first year of college. Usually the first few weeks of college.

The student profiled became depressed because other students appeared more successful than she was. But one reason for the top 1% in scholastic aptitude to go to the most selective schools is to figure out where in that 1% they are. It may be depressing to realize that you are in the bottom half of the top 1%, but that is still valuable information. A student admitted from the wait list, as she was, should especially be prepared to not be at the top of her college class.

Probably a large fraction of people who declare a major in math switch to another major and graduate. Maybe departments should publish statistics on the fraction of students who declare a major in their department but later change majors, so that students understand that the decision is a provisional one.

She thought she was in trouble in multivariable calculus, but many of her classmates struggled just as much (she got an A-). Students need to realize that college exams are harder and are graded on a curve.

I expect that our eldest son will take calculus well before 12th grade, and if so we will find a way for him to take multivariable calculus before college. Maybe some students who are nudged by their parents in high school are better prepared as freshman in college.

Grade inflation in college may not comfort students as much as professors and administrators expect, because some students react to getting a B as strongly as students 40 years ago did to getting a C.

Agree with Jon with respect to how the article defined lawnmower. They are snowplows in that sense. Or bulldozers.

But lawnmower fits with respect to Val's point. These parents are cutting there children off at the knees in an ever-escalating mission to be Better Than You. It's sickening.

I though it was an analogy tied to tall poppies ...

In that case, though, I think that they are more like hedge trimmers-- pruning their children into topiaries.

I picked up my son from elementary sports camp yesterday - run by teen "camp counselors" and I am in a high pressure school district of the bay area - none of these teens running the camps in the full sun (close to 100 degrees) all day long seemed much happy about their jobs either - looked like they would rather be somewhere else. I think that if their parents sent them to the library or Starbucks to study AP calculus, they would have been more comfortable and happier.

While I agree that sexual assault is an issue on college campuses. What this article describes is happening even when students aren't sexually assaulted. I do know students who are/have attended top rated schools, who are either having a very hard time emotionally and/or had to drop out. Thankfully none have committed suicide. And I'm fairly certain that sexual harassment isn't the issue for the students I know about. Although I'll admit that I'm not necessarily going to know, what I do know matches very closely to the issues addressed in the article.

One issue that is addressed in the article is that many top universities (particularly state schools in CA) make it almost impossible to take a semester/quarter/year off even for mental health issues. When I was a student I remember classmates that would take a semester off with little repercussions except their graduation date.

Another huge issue is the need at many schools is you have to declare your major before starting university, or even when applying to university. And there isn't a good way to change if/when a student finds they are suited to a particular major.

What struck me when reading this article was the absolute shallowness and envy/jealousy of the kids who whined that others' lives looked better, even down to the photos of their meals on instagram.

Many college students from families of modest financial means have learned from an early age that they do not have the same types of vacations, electronics, entertainment, enrichment opportunities, or photogenic meals which others may enjoy or take for granted. Possibly these students have learned to measure their success, accomplishment, and sense of personal well-being in healthier ways... often despite others trying to draw them into comparative, competitive, belittling conversations regarding such items as the shoes, etc., which they may be wearing.

Some may say this article typifies kids being overly competitive and/or suffering from social myopia.

Meanwhile those who look at the big picture, think long-term and keep things in perspective, value effort and feedback, who enjoy a challenge, have developed a strong work ethic, independent thinking, and the flexibility to adapt & alter their course as they navigate life... may remain undaunted by the drama which consumes others.

Where I live (not in Bay Area) many of the kids that take the hardest classes at H.S. spend the summer taking intense SAT prep all summer long. Elite - 5 hrs a day plus homework for 8 weeks and this is only for those who already score in the top 5% on a pretest. Many of these students want to be there since it's what their friends are doing and there is a high social status for getting in.

Or "pretake" the classes they will be taking next year. 6-8 week courses preparing them for the AP & honors classes they will take the next year. I assume this happens in many area's of Palo Alto, Sunnyvale, etc as well. Spending the summer in the library studying AP Calc would be relaxing.

Honestly if I had to work at a summer camp in the 100% heat I would probably not be happy either.

For some reason, I don't think the kids who studies 8 hours a day during summer are those who cared about photographing their meals for Instagram.

I really think it is the idea that everything has to be effortless perfect that is toxic.

Can we all at least agree that the appropriate term is "snowplow" parents and not lawnmower parents?

Because the snowplow dumps the snow onto other people making it their problem while keeping their kids on the nice plowed track.

They are not unusual:

New Study Links Facebook To Depression: But Now We Actually Understand Why.
by Alice G. Walton
Forbes
April 8, 2015

Good point. Mulching is not exactly what is happening to bystanders.

I still think that the result is topiary children, however. Hedge trimmers. They seem benign enough until you look at the results.

The SAT tests middle school math. The best students should not be needing intense SAT math prep in the summer before 12th grade, and nothing I've seen indicates that intense prep works for SAT verbal or writing.

What does "a mediating factor" mean? Is it saying men are more likely to judge themselves harshly than women are as a result of social media? (No time to read the article right now, but really interested.)

Anecdotally--that's not been my experience at all. I work as a counselor Facebook comes up all the time (and not in a good way). Girls/women seem much more vulnerable to negative self-comparisons, to me.

In terms of resilience, jealousy, etc., I wouldn't be too quick to judge parents/young adults/adolescents, etc. as having character flaws that make this social (media) comparison worse. It's really a new language for all of us--and adults are also vulnerable. In the good old days, we weren't constantly bombarded with imagery of others' perfect lives. Steep learning curve.

I think we're all in danger of "judging our insides by other people's outsides" in the new paradigm. I hope articles like this help raise our collective consciousness so we can have thoughtful conversations with our children about perception v. reality.

I agree with Eco. In reference to Indigo’s comment, I was raised working poor. I was not an overindulged whiny brat by any stretch of the imagination. I do have decent priorities, generally! However, when I was thrust into a neighborhood of peers who had so much more than me and seemed to BE so much more than me and who were often comparing (and yes one-upping) each other I got very sucked in… I felt inadequate and it did make me feel depressed. I recognized what was happening and “checked out” as much as I could form that group and formed my own that was much closer to me in income, outlook, etc. and was MUCH happier and back in my right state of mind so to speak … I look back and marvel how inadequate I once felt because I did not have the latest $800 stroller, was the only one who did not have chandelier and the professionally painted mural in the nursery and couldn’t afford the expensive Gymboree mommy and me classes everyone was going to with their 6 month old and shake my head… So, I think it is very easy to lose one’s perspective in that way! Yeah, totally petty. Totally not important to now or before then … but during that time… it can have an effect. My husband (raised much wealthier and more indulged than I) – not even remotely as affected as myself.

However, what is striking to me is that no one is talking about the very blatant reason this particular woman came so close to taking her life! She realized she is a lesbian… And, apparently, she correctly realized her parents and her church/culture/society maybe never accept her true self – her true identity. Her father said he was living to “hand her off to her husband some day” !!! I mean, yikes! Her father has still not accepted her. Living hiding such a thing because your parents will stop loving and accepting you, it’s gonna take a toll – a big one. I am not sure the real message here is about “achievement” as much as it pretends to be. Maybe it’s more about the cost of hiding who one really is, particularly when that real identity is lesbian…

Agreed.

Just because everyone's doing it, does not make it a worthwhile pastime.

I reject that whole view of things.

The fact that some adults are willing to amputate parts of their souls to fit in those little boxes is irrelevant. I am am not willing to be a cog in that machine. My kids shouldn't be grist for that mill. The fact your life sucks isn't justification for tormenting the next generation. Kids at SF Lowell or TJ or Boston Latin or Whitney or Stuyvesant shouldn't be working until 1:00am every night. Kids at PA or Gunn shouldn't be stepping in front of trains. Gifted education isn't tantamount to workaholism.

Yes, it's nearly an addiction... Congrats on your recovery!

The article was quite a tossed-salad of stories and angles, including acne, first low grade, possible change of major and shift of planned career, self-doubt fueled by social media...

LOL thanks! I simply did not have the means to keep up at all so it was either "recover" somehow or continue to feel crappy and inadequate... I am sure different things about different people make them more or less resilient to it but it can affect happiness ... and can affect a great deal some times...

Agreed. Exactly. Unrealistic expectations.

Wikipedia explains it here.

Agreed.

Appreciate the link, but was hoping someone could dumb it down for me. Id be surprised to learn males of the species are more inclined toward negative self-eval via social media, but surprises are surprising...

Most of the men/boys I encounter IRL seem somewhat less likely to use FB to project an image of perfection, and more likely to use it to debate on political threads...I realize that may sound like I'm stereotyping--it's just an informal observation.

I'm mostly asking to increase my own awareness, professionally and personally. I currently operate under the assumption that women/girls are more susceptible to harsh self comparison in re: social media.

I'm glad you reevaluated/recovered. New motherhood is a huge identity adjustment. Kinda hard to know where your priorities lie in wake of all the changes. We all want what's best for our kids, easy to be mesmerized by shiny symbols of successful parenting. And so much easier when you find your tribe.

I agree completely. Thanks for saying this so eloquently. Workaholism isn't the only option by a wide margin.

I think you have it right.

There is not a lot of detail provided about the two studies, however it is my understanding that in the first study, for men, the amount of time spent on facebook was not directly related to self-reported symptoms of depression, rather (for men) only that time on facebook which was spent engaged in social comparison was directly related to self-reported symptoms of depression. My take-away is that men spent an amount of time on facebook engaged in other activities than social comparison; Time spent on facebook doing other things (possibly, as you mentioned, debating politics) was not related to self-reported symptoms of depression... only time spent in social comparison had that affect.

In the second study, it was learned that for both genders, social comparisons "up", "down", and even non-directional were mediating variables; All types of social comparison could make people feel bad.

I never said students should be sleep deprived or study non-stop. Here is the paragraph containing the sentence you quoted:

I wonder if the students taking 10 or more AP courses over 2 years are boosting their admissions chances as much as they think. Colleges use AP course grades and test scores as evidence the student can do college level work, but doing well in 5 AP classes ought to demonstrate that, and the admissions boost going from 5 to 10 is probably much smaller than the boost going from 0 to 5.

Today there is an NYT opinion piece by Frank Bruni Today’s Exhausted Superkids on the topic of this thread.

Thanks for sharing - Today's Exhausted Superkids is an interesting article about maintaining balance in life. As on the forums, many of the article's comments are thought-provoking, both pro & con.

The OP's article also mentions Bruni's book, Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be, which was discussed on another thread.

Five or six AP courses sounds like a recipe for sleep deprivation and non-stop studying. As for the summer courses, the volume of homework in the AP classes is a large part of the sleep deprivation, and a summer course won't make that go away.

But what strikes me even more is the idea that some parents are driving their children so as to give them an "edge." To me, this is a clear statement about the creation of a success machine over the development of a person with a meaningful education and the perspective to use it for the greater good. Though I suppose that the greater good is probably not a factor in the thinking of many of our society's hothousing snowplow parents as they shove their children through the right AP classes, the right major at the colleges, and the right jobs. The goal is not to help a person develop into a thinking adult, but a success machine who, externally anyway, has done everything "right" while he complies so as to get paid. Never mind how many of these people are withering inside. No, just push that unhappy thought away.


Thus, the summer or enrichment class isn't chosen as a way for to develop the child's mind or his inner self, but to give him an edge in a competition that has a large element of artificiality at its roots, anyway. Having an actual summer job (like a camp leader) is viewed as a negative because...well, I'm not sure, really, having been afraid to probe this particular boogie man of parental insecurity and my very uncomfortable fear that it has something to do with economic status.

Sadly, raising children whose inner selves are well-developed means that a fair number of them on the natural distribution are going to utterly lack any sort of killer instinct.

In the world as it is now, being the parent to such a child is a fairly unnerving experience. One does fear that they are, metaphorically speaking, anyway-- Babes in the Woods.

Because they really WILL be taken advantage of, or even harmed, before they will sacrifice their principles.

On the one hand, the world desperately needs more people like that in it. On the other, as a parent, you spend a lot of time terribly frightened for such children.

Middle roads are OK. One might be able to train a person with principles and perspective who is also canny enough to not be taken advantage of.

May it be so.

Don't many parents move to places with the best public schools they can afford or send their children to private school in order to improve the prospects of their children in life? I wonder why after-schooling should be singled out as especially mercenary.

I think the greater good is achieved by people pursuing their interests in a market economy just as often as it is by people consciously pursuing the "greater good". Whether one believes this is related to one's political views.

It can be chosen for both reasons.

I agree with Bostonian.

Almost all kids need a little pushing, gifted kids included. There is nothing inherently wrong about summer school or prep classes.

I do blame the increasing use of extracurricular in college admission. I think the kids are tired not only because they were taking 5 AP classes, they also need to play on a travel sport team or orchestra, and volunteer and be a leader of whatever organizations. They have no unstructured down time.

Agreed.

Me, too. IMO, Bostonian has not expressed an extremist view. If others believe his preferred number of AP courses may be too many for their own family... it may still be the optimal number for Bostonian's.

I believe that was the predominant view on a thread which discussed supporting or hothousing.

A tool, which may be used productively or not.

Some find extracurriculars to be a quick test of whether one is well-rounded and has a balanced life; Others find extracurriculars to be easily padded and/or an indicator of SES.

Both unstructured time and sleep are important... as is developing a work ethic and one's own interests (internal locus of control). There are many elements to keep in balance, and some may say that the more interests/skills/abilities one is cultivating, the less devastating may be the impact of any one element becoming an epic fail (learning experience).

Don't pay too much attention to any one study on Facebook. I've been reading these studies for work for years and they are a jumbled mess of contradictions in terms of what they've found. We really, really don't understand Facebook's effects on us yet.

Agreed. So much may depend upon the hypothesis being tested, the questions posed to participants, the duration of the research study, and the number of participants. I believe the two studies linked above had under 200 participants, which is a tiny fraction of facebook users.

The NYT catches up to our discussion about a year later

Taking Summer School to Get Ahead, Not Catch Up
By KYLE SPENCER
New York Times
August 16, 2016

This is what I was getting at last year. Of course most or all kids need a push now and then. But the approach above means being shoved from behind and dragged from in front. It doesn't help a child develop into a thoughtful, productive adult with good mental health, but rather seems almost designed to manufacture an unhappy person who's taught to check boxes as a way of getting ahead (which is defined as earning more money and having more status). I know so many people who focus on status (rather than doing well as an outcome doing something they enjoyed and doing it well), and so many make themselves so very unhappy --- mostly because there's always someone whose Ferarri is nicer than yours or whose kid's school successes are greater than your kid's.


This kind of me-first/expediency-based thinking has got this country into a very difficult position. A case in point is that it gives us classroom practices that focus on test scores over meaningful education, and on checking boxes over developing thoughtful adults. Gifted kids are proficient; check the box and give them extra worksheets.

Geometry in six weeks over the summer? Sorry, no. The subject is far too rich and far too deep for that. But the fast food version, where you memorize a bunch of processed, standardized triangle theorems? Absolutely. Check the box and move on to algebra 2 in 9th grade! Get ahead! Just don't be surprised when the student gets college and falls apart because s/he can't solve a problem that's not on the McMath menu.

The whole point of the article is the stress these kids are under because of all that extra work.

It's nice that in your family, this isn't the case. But that does't mean you can extrapolate from there.

I live in an area that's rife with helicopter/lawnmower/tiger parents. I've met them at school, in the gym, at the ice rink, in the park...everywhere. To these parents, A- grades are Cs and Bs are Fs. The cubs spend the summer in the library doing AP coursework. Unless they're too young, in which case they spend the summer in math camp or multi-subject summer school. They have to be on multiple sports teams (often at the same time) and reach a high level or they have failed. The parents crab at the coaches because the kid's scores aren't high enough. For these parental types, anything less than WINNING and getting into a tier one college means failure and letting the parents down.

And so we have a high teen suicide rate and high levels of mental illness.

It's great that your daughter doesn't suffer from this problem, but that doesn't make it any less real for many kids, so please don't be so dismissive by citing your own experience or your own wishes in the face of the demands of 5 AP classes.