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Posted By: ultramarina Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/14/14 03:10 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-of-autism-spectrum-disorder-why/360482/

This struck a chord with me:

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Diagnostic conundrums enter the picture when we frame autism as a spectrum disorder, (as it is now officially designated in the newly minted Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 5th Edition, the psychiatric handbook used to diagnose it) and try to draw a bold line between a slow-to-mature toddler and one on the mild end of the spectrum. What is a doctor to make of a chatty, intellectually advanced, three-year old patient presenting with a hodgepodge of issues, such as: poor eye contact, clumsiness, difficulties transitioning, overactivity or underactivity, tantruming, picky eating, quirky interests, and social awkwardness? Does this presentation indicate mild ASD? Or, does it speak to a combination of off-beat developmental events that result in a toddler experiencing transitory stress, who is otherwise normal, in the broad sense?

Leave off picky eating and quirky interests, and that was my DD--who is now a popular 10yo with many friends, but who still has difficulties transitioning and some odd social skill deficits, and who does not always make good eye contact, most especially when stressed or upset.
Sorry--I meant to post this in 2E, but I guess it can be left here.
Posted By: Dude Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/14/14 03:58 PM
Better yet:

Originally Posted by article
It would appear that the education and training of a sizable percentage of pediatricians and child psychologists leaves them ill-equipped to tease apart the fine distinction between mild ASD and behaviors that fall within the broad swath of normal childhood development.
Yes, that's the heart of it. Same is true for ADD, of course--and that's arguably a worse problem, since we medicate much more often for it.
I do think some of this can be attributed to the simple fact that we do not understand either disorder very well at all yet. Still blind people describing the elephant.
Originally Posted by Dude
Better yet:

Originally Posted by article
It would appear that the education and training of a sizable percentage of pediatricians and child psychologists leaves them ill-equipped to tease apart the fine distinction between mild ASD and behaviors that fall within the broad swath of normal childhood development.
Many just don't have enough experience with young children. I think anyone who works in this field should go work in daycare for six months. Teens rarely babysit anymore, families are smaller & farther apart. Young adults who don't have their own kids often have only a textbook idea of what young kids are really like.
Thanks for posting the article.

When my son was a pre-teen, I had a lot of pressure from untrained teachers/friends/family to have my son "diagnosed" in the aspergers/autistic spectrum. The two psychologists who were working with him for anxiety disorder and social problems both told me that in their opinion he was NOT Aspergers. As had all those "Is your Child Autistic" qizzes you see around. Although one told me he would write me a letter if it would get me needed services at school. Frustrates me because I hate that we as a society are quick to label introverted gifted kids as autistic who need intervention.
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Although one told me he would write me a letter if it would get me needed services at school.

I think about this a lot. I think my own DD could benefit from some help (although she is functioning perfectly well in school and probably the school services aren't quite right, but ignore that for now). I still am not sure what, if any dx is really right for her, though. I believe part of the issue is overdiagnosis in the name of getting kids services. It's quite understandable, but what are the other consequences? What if we provided more services on an as-needed basis?
Posted By: 22B Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/14/14 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/1-in-68-children-now-has-a-diagnosis-of-autism-spectrum-disorder-why/360482/
Rates of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) are not creeping up so much as leaping up. New numbers just released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reveal that one in 68 children now has a diagnosis of ASD—a 30 percent increase in just two years. In 2002, about one in 150 children was considered autistic and in 1991 the figure was one in 500.

All this just means that the Autism Dragnet is getting wider.
Posted By: LRS Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/14/14 06:52 PM
My son was diagnosed aspergers when he was 3 (very early for that dx). It was such a relief to get help for him. Now, after years of therapy and a few more years with no services, I don't really think the diagnosis fits anymore.
I would like to havea neuropsych battery done to really look at where his strengths and defecits are at this time. He tested very gifted on some brief tests to get into a program, and he is having significant handwriting problems. His math and nonverbal scores are extremely high.

I wonder what is the best way to present this in order to get a neuropsych battery approved by my hmo?

I know this wasn't exactly the point of origional article. But our experience being right near that line of high functioning autism and quirky smart kid has been interesting. Sometimes the dx has gotten us services we needed, and other times it has been used to pidgeonhole my son or deny services.
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I think about this a lot. I think my own DD could benefit from some help (although she is functioning perfectly well in school and probably the school services aren't quite right, but ignore that for now). I still am not sure what, if any dx is really right for her, though. I believe part of the issue is overdiagnosis in the name of getting kids services. It's quite understandable, but what are the other consequences? What if we provided more services on an as-needed basis?

So many of the social and practical life skills that were once taught in elementary school are now pushed out because of the focus on developmentally inappropriate academics. (I know that sounds ironic on this forum!) Many schools no longer give kids enough opportunities to develop these skills in a structured environment. For example, there isn't enough time to play with Play-doh, string beads, or learn to tie laces. There isn't enough time to play board games, work on fun group projects, or play house/blocks with others. There isn't enough time to learn to skip rope, dig a hole, or roller skate.

I'd like to see a study of elementary children that compared fine motor skills, social skills, and gross motor skills to those of kids from the 1970s. My suspicion is that these skills would be lower overall. What a difference that would make for the kids to the left of the curve for these skills!

Obviously there are kids that do need special services, but MANY kids could benefit from more school time spent on practical life and social skills.
Kathryn my aspie child did preschool through to gr1 at a school that heavily emphasized free play and explicitly taught social skills (think summer hill type school). It was extremely therapeutic, but diasterous academically and she's still aspie... And we also need to keep in mind that lots of those 70s or earlier kids simply went undiagnosed, which has pros and cons. It's not at all uncommon for a parent to be diagnosed in the wake of a child's diagnosis, or even if they don't get formally diagnosed to have a major private "OH!" moment...
I feel that a lot of schools are putting kids into the "educational ASD" category to get services. The kids do not necessarily meet the DSM criteria, but the school system can put them in that category even if there is no medical diagnosis. All that the kid has to display is delayed social skills and a few other things, all of which neurotypical individuals may have as well. So a child with social delays and sensory issues could get an educational ASD label. Parents don't understand this distinction. But even medical professionals misdiagnose it quite often, in my opinion. DS's neuropsych (who is with a large university) thinks that the huge rise in autism in recent years is because of over-diagnosis. Quirky kids with delays (who are not significantly affected) get the label even if they do not have the core features in the DSM.

DS was put into the "physically impaired" category for the school system and does still get services like speech and social skills group. We had to have an outside eval/diagnosis though to get that PI classification (in his case developmental coordination disorder). So it is useless to most kids unless the parents are lucky and knowledgeable enough to get their child into someone smart enough to figure it out and give that diagnosis. I am guessing that DS is one of the only kids in the entire district to have a DCD IEP even though the disorder affects 5-6 percent of kids and is a lot more common than ASD. In fact, probably many kids with an ASD diagnosis really have DCD. So many of the symptoms overlap.
Posted By: Irena Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/15/14 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by blackcat
the disorder affects 5-6 percent of kids and is a lot more common than ASD. In fact, probably many kids with an ASD diagnosis really have DCD. So many of the symptoms overlap.

I totally agree with this. I think if I had let it happen my kid would have gotten an ASD dx. In fact, I know he would have at least gotten at least a PDD-NOS. The medical profession around here is very unfamiliar with DCD and they literally kept telling me that an "autism diagnosis would get more help and more services." The schools don't even know what DCD is but they are very, very comfortable with ASD dx and ADHD. I think it is so odd, how it works. I do feel my kid does have the "correct labels" now; but, let me tell you, it took some doing.
Posted By: Irena Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/15/14 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by MumOfThree
that lots of those 70s or earlier kids simply went undiagnosed, which has pros and cons. It's not at all uncommon for a parent to be diagnosed in the wake of a child's diagnosis, or even if they don't get formally diagnosed to have a major private "OH!" moment...
Definitely agree with this too.
Posted By: maisey Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/15/14 03:42 AM
My child has a educational asd classification. I agree schools can be quick with the label. But what I found they are even more quick to do is place the youngest children in the most self contained pre k classrooms even when the ASD traits are not so obvious and severe. If I had not been a informed parent and denied the placement suggested at first I know my child would not be where he is today.
3 years later and mainstreamed in K he has been identified twice exceptional. His private psych. says yes to him being an aspie or what is now just asd. But very mild so no need for any formal diagnosis. I have the documentation if we decide to pursue it later.
I noticed a tend of parents wanting a asd classification instead of emotional behaviour disorder for their kiddos. They think this will get their child more services and keep them mainstreamed.
Originally Posted by MumOfThree
Kathryn my aspie child did preschool through to gr1 at a school that heavily emphasized free play and explicitly taught social skills (think summer hill type school). It was extremely therapeutic, but diasterous academically and she's still aspie... And we also need to keep in mind that lots of those 70s or earlier kids simply went undiagnosed, which has pros and cons. It's not at all uncommon for a parent to be diagnosed in the wake of a child's diagnosis, or even if they don't get formally diagnosed to have a major private "OH!" moment...

I hope my post didn't come across as dismissive of kids who really do need special services! I was thinking more about kids who fall into the gray/borderline area addressed in the article.
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I noticed a tend of parents wanting a asd classification instead of emotional behaviour disorder for their kiddos. They think this will get their child more services and keep them mainstreamed.

Interesting.

I agree that no one knows what DCD is. I only know because of my job. Other disorders, like nonverbal learning disorder, could also look ASD-ish.

I was talking to my DD about the importance of eye contact the other day and was totally shocked to hear my not-at-all ASD DH say to her that he had to be told to make eye contact more as a teen. In his case, as we privately discussed later, it was anxiety and shyness causing the issue. I don't actually think this is why DD isn't great at eye contact--her issues do feel spectrumish--but it just made me think about the complexity of it all.

The more I think about, the more I see other kids I know who don't fall anywhere on any diagnosable curve that I can think of but who could use social skills help...
I took in DS for a speech assessment and after the woman spent literally 1 minute talking to him she asked if he has Aspergers. Simply because he was not making eye contact with her that often. He was very chatty and friendly, the eye contact just wasn't there. He DOES make eye contact with us and other people that he knows well. And he was making eye contact with her by the end of the appt. It just annoys me that people are trying to label kids with ASD based on such superficial characteristics after just talking to them for a minute. I have troubles making eye contact as well and have to force myself but I don't fit ASD criteria in any way. DS had a teacher who got right in your face with a direct stare--I thought that was just as weird as not making eye contact.
Posted By: 22B Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/15/14 03:30 PM
The claim is often made that early diagnosis and treatment/intervention will lead to better outcomes, and dire warnings are given that this is a limited window of opportunity that will close forever if you wait too long.

But there is a "how-to-lie-with-statistics hall-of-shame" aspect to this. The more that the pool of autism-diagnosees is diluted with kids who are not really autistic, the more successful their treatment/intervention will appear to be, because a larger proportion of them will appear to have been "cured" of a condition that they didn't have in the first place.
Originally Posted by blackcat
I took in DS for a speech assessment and after the woman spent literally 1 minute talking to him she asked if he has Aspergers. Simply because he was not making eye contact with her that often. He was very chatty and friendly, the eye contact just wasn't there. He DOES make eye contact with us and other people that he knows well. And he was making eye contact with her by the end of the appt. It just annoys me that people are trying to label kids with ASD based on such superficial characteristics after just talking to them for a minute. I have troubles making eye contact as well and have to force myself but I don't fit ASD criteria in any way. DS had a teacher who got right in your face with a direct stare--I thought that was just as weird as not making eye contact.
In some non-Western cultures, maintaining eye contact is considered confrontational. If someone asks me a difficult question, I may concentrate better if I am not looking at them. It should not be assumed that more eye contact is always better.
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If someone asks me a difficult question, I may concentrate better if I am not looking at them.

This is what my DD says. She also will fiddle with things with her hands when asked something hard (mentally hard, or emotionally hard) or feeling confronted. To me, it does not come off well. However, I am her mother and am hyperattuned to her minor social issues. No one else has ever mentioned it to me about her.

When I asked her if she knew what I meant about feeling ignored if someone didn't look at her when she was talking, she said that it was not ideal, but specified that she didn't really care that much unless it was obvious the listener also was not paying attention because he/she did not answer or respond appropriately. She also pointed out that we frequently have good conversations in the car when we cannot look at each others' faces (true!)

This all sounds pretty ASD-ish, I admit, but some part of me also thinks--well, I am imposing my NT view of the world here or what?

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In some non-Western cultures, maintaining eye contact is considered confrontational. If someone asks me a difficult question, I may concentrate better if I am not looking at them. It should not be assumed that more eye contact is always better.

I know, a friend of mine who grew up in India was talking about that teacher (with the very direct stare) and how creeped out that made her. Dh has commented on it as well. It does seem confrontational, and I grew up in the U.S.
I agree, blackcat-- and I know that most introverts regard eye contact as a matter of-- well, of personal space, as weird as that sounds.

Originally Posted by blackcat
I took in DS for a speech assessment and after the woman spent literally 1 minute talking to him she asked if he has Aspergers. Simply because he was not making eye contact with her that often. He was very chatty and friendly, the eye contact just wasn't there. He DOES make eye contact with us and other people that he knows well. And he was making eye contact with her by the end of the appt. It just annoys me that people are trying to label kids with ASD based on such superficial characteristics after just talking to them for a minute. I have troubles making eye contact as well and have to force myself but I don't fit ASD criteria in any way. DS had a teacher who got right in your face with a direct stare--I thought that was just as weird as not making eye contact.
I have been there.

This was one of the reasons we kept being asked if DS was "on the spectrum" when he was having emotional problems as a preteen. It's doesn't seem that odd to me that an emotionally fragile introverted preteen doesn't initially make eye contact with an adult he doesn't know well. I kept getting frustrated that adults he didn't know well would get into his face and expect him to warm up to them immediately. Maybe there is a reason beyond autism that he is looking at the floor? DS didn't have a problem with eye contact as a preschooler and doesn't have problems now that he is older and a lot more stable.
Well considering the fact that DS is in first grade, I thought it was a lot to expect. Many/most kids that age are anxious talking to adults, but he answered all her questions in detail. He is definitely an introvert though and slow to warm up, but this isn't necessarily apparent to anyone but us. It probably didn't help that he kept talking about minecraft, astronomy, Cleopatra, and other random odd things.
I think what is more confounding is that such signs can be both mild ASD and brain immaturity/slow development. In particular, I am thinking about the child of a family friend who appeared to me clearly mild (beyond borderline) ASD and was classified with an IEP for ASD by the school district in K. Interestingly, this child also had a couple of savant traits (give him any date and he can give you the day of the week immdediately, etc.) that disappeared after the ASD signs improved substantially many years down the road. It struck me as odd that the savant ability disappeared as his behavior improved substantially into the "borderline" range - one of those mysteries of the brain.
DD is no savant, but had some vaguely savantish traits as a toddler that could also have been considered ASDish (or gifted). In particular, she memorized the location of most countries of the world and many, many flags of the world as a young toddler (twoish) and could recite extremely long picture books with ease within a few hearings. I feel like these unusual memory skills have receded somewhat, although maybe they are just more underground. She looked more odd/off as a toddler than she does now, that's for sure.
Posted By: 22B Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/15/14 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Quantum2003
I think what is more confounding is that such signs can be both mild ASD and brain immaturity/slow development. In particular, I am thinking about the child of a family friend who appeared to me clearly mild (beyond borderline) ASD and was classified with an IEP for ASD by the school district in K. Interestingly, this child also had a couple of savant traits (give him any date and he can give you the day of the week immdediately, etc.) that disappeared after the ASD signs improved substantially many years down the road. It struck me as odd that the savant ability disappeared as his behavior improved substantially into the "borderline" range - one of those mysteries of the brain.

I don't think this is mysterious. It is just two cases of developmentally normal growing up. The linked article already describes how various behaviors that look autistic are often really just various forms of immaturity that are grown out of.

In the case of disappearing savant skills (and there was a thread here a while back with several examples of this, e.g. our DSthen3 could rattle off the elements from memory but has long since forgotten them, and can't even remember doing it) my theory is the gifted toddler's mind is in high gear, but unsophisticated, so they may display savant-like skills. As they grow up and become relatively more sophisticated their brains have a lot more skills than "mere" memory/calculation feats, so basically their brains have better things to do, and so the savant-like skills seem to fall by the wayside (imho).
It's a decent theory.
Originally Posted by 22B
Originally Posted by Quantum2003
I think what is more confounding is that such signs can be both mild ASD and brain immaturity/slow development. In particular, I am thinking about the child of a family friend who appeared to me clearly mild (beyond borderline) ASD and was classified with an IEP for ASD by the school district in K. Interestingly, this child also had a couple of savant traits (give him any date and he can give you the day of the week immdediately, etc.) that disappeared after the ASD signs improved substantially many years down the road. It struck me as odd that the savant ability disappeared as his behavior improved substantially into the "borderline" range - one of those mysteries of the brain.

I don't think this is mysterious. It is just two cases of developmentally normal growing up. The linked article already describes how various behaviors that look autistic are often really just various forms of immaturity that are grown out of.

In the case of disappearing savant skills (and there was a thread here a while back with several examples of this, e.g. our DSthen3 could rattle off the elements from memory but has long since forgotten them, and can't even remember doing it) my theory is the gifted toddler's mind is in high gear, but unsophisticated, so they may display savant-like skills. As they grow up and become relatively more sophisticated their brains have a lot more skills than "mere" memory/calculation feats, so basically their brains have better things to do, and so the savant-like skills seem to fall by the wayside (imho).

Actually, this child still does not appear completely normal and probably never will; his father still exhibits some odd behaviors as well. Even after reading a substantial amount of research over the last two decades, I still find this topic mysterious, but that is just me.

Perhaps just like opinions regarding what constitutes giftedness, opinions regarding what constitutes savant abilities vary widely as well. It would never occur to me to consider memorization of a table or even a map as a savant ability. While not common, these kinds of memorization feats are not rare in very young children. The one savant ability that I described was still exhibited at a much older age and it wasn't an issue of memorization or obvious computation as it was pretty instantaneous. This child never had access to calendars centuries in the past or decades in the future.
I'm convinced that many people have savant skills that they either learn not to display to others, or simply never have much occasion to demonstrate.

Or they are things that aren't especially flashy, but also not exactly alluring, either.

Memorization of numerical or spatial data is often in the 'flashy' category with kids. But I know a number of adults who remember every phone number they've ever heard-- even once-- and can rattle them off in an amazing way. I have even known people who had that ability with auditory verbal information, and could "replay" conversations even from years before. I can remember color that way, and apparently have better color discrimination than 99% of humans (evidently).



It really is an inborn difference, I think. But I also don't think that these savant skills are all that rare. It's just stuff that doesn't COME UP naturally as children get older-- and almost never other than as, well, party tricks.

Posted By: KJP Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/15/14 08:49 PM
I used to be able to do the date/day thing but I can't quite remember how I did it. It was more of a pattern recognition thing than a calculation thing. I am not a math person. At all. Basically the dates move along the days in a pattern but then leap year messes up the pattern. But since leap year has a pattern too it just becomes part of the pattern (just the annoying part) and the difference in the number of years is how many cycles to go through the pattern. I am pretty sure that's how I did it.
I was once considered gifted. But certainly not a savant. Now I have Mom Brain which means I am juggling too much on too little sleep. The preceding paragraph is a great example of my clarity of thought wink
Posted By: KJP Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/15/14 09:01 PM
My sister in law has that ability with phone numbers. It is so handy.
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Perhaps just like opinions regarding what constitutes giftedness, opinions regarding what constitutes savant abilities vary widely as well. It would never occur to me to consider memorization of a table or even a map as a savant ability. While not common, these kinds of memorization feats are not rare in very young children.

I don't really know how rare it is, but I think it's more rare than you are assuming here. I agree that it's hard to define what savantism is, though. I did not consider DD's map abilities all that amazing--cool. but not crazy weird--when she was doing it. First baby, etc. As she got older I began to see that it was kinda out there. Then somehow I saw this video:
which has 5 million views. That could have been my DD. Eerie, actually, how much it is like her. My DH's jaw dropped when I showed it to him and pointed out the view count. There is another video with a child reciting a long poem which is also very like both my kids in toddlerhood--that one got a ton of attention as well.

She is still really good at learning stuff like geography, it must be said, but definitely knew more countries at two than she does now, which is kind of odd.

There is, of course, the question of "Can you intensively drill a child in this stuff at an early age," which is different. But at two, I don't think you could? Maybe?
My DS has good map memorizing skills. I think what impressed me was that I had no idea he was memorizing maps,never even showed him a map or named countries. I did hang a map on his wall though as a decoration. And then when I asked him where random states or countries were, he knew, and could describe where they were without even looking at a map and draw them from memory. So there was no drilling/teaching involved. I wouldn't call it a savant skill, but definitely odd. Esp. since I don't think he was spending very much time looking at maps. We hung a world map on his wall and 2 days later (after spending maybe 10 min in his room awake), he knew where almost all the random countries I named were, including Sudan, Finland, Denmark, etc. He described the Mediterranean Sea as a "lake" which cracked me up. He said Sudan is by Egypt and across the lake from Italy. He had no idea where Africa is (because it's not labeled on the map) but knew Sudan.

DS defintely has some spectrumy quirks. But I think gifted kids can do these things as well.
Originally Posted by ultramarina
I don't really know how rare it is, but I think it's more rare than you are assuming here. I agree that it's hard to define what savantism is, though. I did not consider DD's map abilities all that amazing--cool. but not crazy weird--when she was doing it. First baby, etc. As she got older I began to see that it was kinda out there. Then somehow I saw this video:
which has 5 million views. That could have been my DD. Eerie, actually, how much it is like her. My DH's jaw dropped when I showed it to him and pointed out the view count. There is another video with a child reciting a long poem which is also very like both my kids in toddlerhood--that one got a ton of attention as well.
That is a very cute video, I love how she jumps down but decides she wants more. And she wants to repeat the name of many of the countries. Perhaps it's because I have a gifted child but I don't see this as being that exceptional. Seems an extension of a toddlers need to learn a label for everything.
Posted By: Mana Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/16/14 01:01 AM
She is very cute but this seems quite natural to me too. Isn't this what all toddlers to?
Well, 5 million YouTube views would argue otherwise.
But also, no. It is not what all toddlers do. smile

Here is the kid reciting the poem that I was talking about--800,000 views. The subject matter is a bit unusual, but my kids certainly recited things of this length (longer) and with this kind of expression at this age (and DS was really into a book of poetry that included some sophisticated poetry). I did not think it was so odd when they did this, but other people definitely did. I do not think this is really savant, though.

The map thing is often mentioned on gifted checklists, especially in regards to kids recognizing shapes of countries out of context (DD did this--Dora's hair looked like some country, an odd wooden salad implement looked like another, toast and pancakes often looked like countries...)
Posted By: aquinas Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/16/14 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Mana
She is very cute but this seems quite natural to me too. Isn't this what all toddlers to?

+1 for this. She's clearly having a blast! My son seems to remember anything you tell him once. I think some children just gasp for knowledge like air.

I don't necessarily think this has to link to autism, either. DS2.5 is about as opposite the ASD red flags as is humanly possible.
DD at that age definitely made way out there spatial/verbal connections. They went over most peoples' heads, thankfully.


What I mean by that is that my 3yo should probably not actually have been remarking on how such-and-such illustration in a children's book reminded her so much of WTC North Tower, nor that prominent citizen arrestee on the front page of the paper looked an awful lot like The Wizard of Oz. Or "Mama, what does {adult full sentence overheard at the library two weeks ago} mean?" eek Honestly, if I weren't HG+ and also highly attuned to my surroundings and the visual/verbal landscape around me, I would not have known where she picked the stuff up, and then she REALLY would have looked amazing, coming up with full sentences like that and us thinking that they were de novo. Well, they weren't. But the sheer SIZE of the 'bits' that she wanted labels and definitions for, and wanted to categorize or create mental Venn diagrams for was very very different from other children her age. It was the same exact behavior, ultimately, as a child pointing and asking "what's that?" but on a scale that was orders of magnitude away from it. She wasn't selective-- it's just that nobody else really anticipated that a sound-bite from CNN would be the subject of an information grab as much as a sentence from Elmo or Mr. Rogers, and she definitely wasn't just a parrot-- she understood context and knew if you made something up, or didn't understand her questions, and she'd get MAD at us over that. I often had to really flex my own brain to know WHY she wanted to know something so that I'd know WHAT she wanted to know. Yeah, prescription drug adverts on the tv were a real treat during those years, and my DH loves to watch sports. blush



She has almost no memory-- NOW-- of those years, but she very clearly did remember them until she was 8 or 9 years old. It is also interesting that much of it has clearly been internalized and used to build her vocabulary and understanding of how the world works.

DD is not at all on the spectrum-- she's probably the polar opposite.


When dd was younger (between 21 months and 3 years) She used to memorize entire books after just a couple of readings and would recite them without looking at the books. She had also memorized all the lines from the jungle book movie and could enact any scene verbatim with proper intonation and expression. Now at 4.5 yo, she seems to have lost that talent, though not completely. She did recently learn the let it go song in both English and the 25 languages one after listening to both songs maybe 5 times each. So it is there but it is no longer jaw dropping.
Thinking about it a bit, I realized that recognizing shapes out of context is an skill that would help kids learn to read. So I'm guessing that for those of us who have really early readers we saw our kids do similar things at not quite 2. One part of learning to read is learning recognize a particular shape (the letters) even when you see it out of context. And if the kid thinks picking out countries on a map is fun and has a good memory for this type of thing, all it takes is playing this game multiple times.

Fairly sure this thread has gone a bit off topic as I don't think it has much to do with autism, but I'm finding it interesting.
Posted By: 22B Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/16/14 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by bluemagic
Fairly sure this thread has gone a bit off topic as I don't think it has much to do with autism, but I'm finding it interesting.
It's not far off topic. Children who show certain highly precocious early skills are often accused of having "splinter skills", are therefore placed under suspicion of being autistic, and may even be subjected to "treatment" including being deprived of intellectual stimulation (since it's obviously a bad influence) so that they can develop more normally.
Originally Posted by 22B
Originally Posted by bluemagic
Fairly sure this thread has gone a bit off topic as I don't think it has much to do with autism, but I'm finding it interesting.
It's not far off topic. Children who show certain highly precocious early skills are often accused of having "splinter skills", are therefore placed under suspicion of being autistic, and may even be subjected to "treatment" including being deprived of intellectual stimulation (since it's obviously a bad influence) so that they can develop more normally.
Yikes that happens? I guess being gifted is fairly normal in my family and I don't know anyone who would consider depriving a kid of intellectual stimulation. Even if they were diagnosed with autism. But perhaps it's why I get so defensive when autism is closely tied to certain gifted traits. And the idea that we need to 'cure' autism is so offensive.
Yes; my DD was certainly a kid who was verbally precocious, and my mom was the one that forbade us to teach her decoding skills at 2-3yo, which I now wonder about-- being an elementary educator, was she afraid of DD seeming hyperlexic? Maybe.

She toe-walked, memorized dialogue, had sensory quirks, was a picky eater, had unusual obsessive interests, was anxious about strangers or breaks in her routine, and talked incessantly... so sure-- that all sounds like an ASD, right?

There was no way to encapsulate the things that made her very much NOT like a kid on the spectrum when looking at checklists and racking up "signs" of ASD's.

(Which DD is very profoundly NOT-- and it's not that I would have trouble mentally with the idea, it's just that it simply doesn't fit what I know.)

She almost certainly could have been "found" with early childhood screenings that weren't thorough enough, though.
Posted By: Mana Re: Atlantic piece about 1 in 68 autism rate - 04/16/14 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by ultramarina
The map thing is often mentioned on gifted checklists, especially in regards to kids recognizing shapes of countries out of context (DD did this--Dora's hair looked like some country, an odd wooden salad implement looked like another, toast and pancakes often looked like countries...)

I remember a boy next door who knew everything there is ever to know about trains. I don't think he was on the spectrum although he was not exactly friendly with me or my siblings. I don't think it's uncommon for young children to get into a subject and become an "expert" or a collector of facts at a young age.

That to me is a different skill set than your DD's ability to make connections as a toddler.That divergent thinking skill seems more indicative of advanced cognitive abilities and creativity to me although having an excellent memory always helps in the learning process and two skill sets are definitely not mutually exclusive.

It makes sense that school work comes very easily to your DD. She probably has the memory and critical thinking skills to learn whatever she sets her mind upon. smile
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When dd was younger (between 21 months and 3 years) She used to memorize entire books after just a couple of readings and would recite them without looking at the books. She had also memorized all the lines from the jungle book movie and could enact any scene verbatim with proper intonation and expression. Now at 4.5 yo, she seems to have lost that talent, though not completely. She did recently learn the let it go song in both English and the 25 languages one after listening to both songs maybe 5 times each. So it is there but it is no longer jaw dropping.

Yes, this is like both of my kids (although DD is the only one who would have made anyone worry about ASD).

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Thinking about it a bit, I realized that recognizing shapes out of context is an skill that would help kids learn to read. So I'm guessing that for those of us who have really early readers we saw our kids do similar things at not quite 2. One part of learning to read is learning recognize a particular shape (the letters) even when you see it out of context.

I see your point. It's the kind of skill that would help kids crack the code without instruction, perhaps (and both of my kids did that).

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What I mean by that is that my 3yo should probably not actually have been remarking on how such-and-such illustration in a children's book reminded her so much of WTC North Tower, nor that prominent citizen arrestee on the front page of the paper looked an awful lot like The Wizard of Oz. Or "Mama, what does {adult full sentence overheard at the library two weeks ago} mean?" eek Honestly, if I weren't HG+ and also highly attuned to my surroundings and the visual/verbal landscape around me, I would not have known where she picked the stuff up, and then she REALLY would have looked amazing, coming up with full sentences like that and us thinking that they were de novo.

yeah, yeah. This is also like DD. She would spout back whole phrases and reuse them in perfect context. You had to be her mom to know that she was "chunking" that. She also talked nonstop, all the time. (Do you know that scene in Austin Powers--"How do I tell them I have no inner monologue?") She freaked people out in her ones and twos, though she was tall, so I think she passed as older.

DS wasn't like this at all, though--his language learning curve was slower and much more typical in its development. However, he read a full year earlier. (shrug)
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