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Posted By: 22B How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/03/13 06:17 PM
How much does college cost?

This topic comes up in various threads, so let's put it in a single thread here.

What are all the factors that affect the price of college? Residency in a given state? Merit (measured how)? Need (assets and income -- which types)? What do we know about FAFSA, CSSprofile, and anything similar? How do colleges set their price for each individual? What do we know?

What has everyone discovered or experienced?

What's it like in other countries, and how is it for foreigners to those countries?

Inevitably, admissions criteria also become part of the conversation.

Let's discuss it all here.


My final answer:

College costs way too much.
Posted By: Dude Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/03/13 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
My final answer:

College costs way too much.

/thread
It is very difficult for higher ed to keep pace with the efficiency improvements in other industries.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...se-and-the-skyrocketing-cost-of-college/

Nonetheless, college appears to remain a good investment, both in making people more informed citizens and increasing their earnings potential. One doesn't necessarily have to go to an Ivy...

DeeDee
Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/03/13 07:35 PM
Here is a fun graph of student loan debt!

Readers will note that growth spiked and then moved up at a nice clip in 2005, which was the same year in which the bankruptcy reform law was enacted. SL debt pretty much kept pace with household debt until that year.

Presumably, the lenders knew that inability to discharge debt (even through death) = lots of profit. So now anyone can get a student loan. mad frown

And of course, with tuition loans so readily available, the colleges have zero incentive to keep costs down. frown mad
It's too much. It makes me sick. It's cost prohibitive for many families.

Ugh. That 'fun' graph looks bleak to me. Then again, I have to yet to start to pay off my student loan from getting my library degree. Sigh.

I don't see how this lending is sustainable long-term, especially with housing still be very high and the exorbitant cost of childcare in many areas of the country.

Childcare is now rivals college tuition - a fact that should garner more attention than it does. Of course, at the moment, you can't get a student loan for daycare or nursery school, but I can see this coming soon.

UK and Canadian universities (and probably others abroad) are still cheaper, at the moment, as an alternative but I don't know what to say if you're planning to get a degree and eventually have a family. Prince Harry is still available, I think!
Many colleges are at 60k a year including room, board, transportation and personal expenses. What each family pays varies based on income and assets. Each college calculates financial aid based on its own formula. To get an idea of how much your family might pay, go to a college's website and fill out the net price calculator. Some colleges are more generous than others. Some only give out need based aid while others give merit based aid to attract good students.
Originally Posted by cdfox
I don't see how this lending is sustainable long-term, especially with housing still be very high and the exorbitant cost of childcare in many areas of the country.

Childcare is now rivals college tuition - a fact that should garner more attention than it does. Of course, at the moment, you can't get a student loan for daycare or nursery school, but I can see this coming soon.

I'll admit that I never ever think about the cost of child care.

However, my wife was able to make money at one point by taking care of a friend's child.

So, I suppose when I think of it at all, I think of it as income and not cost.
Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/03/13 08:32 PM
Around here, child care starts around $185 per week and goes up from there. Most places have waiting lists and so they can set rules that suit them. Like, parents have to keep paying when they're on vacation and Little Junior isn't attending or when day care is closed for the 4th of July week.

So that's nearly $10,000 annually for one child.

ETA: This is for family daycare in someone's house. Centers cost more.
I pay $1600/month for daycare for one child, before extras. I cannot wait for kindergarten to start.
At this point, I'm trying to figure out why people don't form childcare cooperatives.



Originally Posted by JonLaw
At this point, I'm trying to figure out why people don't form childcare cooperatives.

I totally agree!! I sent my daughter to a coop for preschool and it was a fraction of the cost of normal preschool. Granted, I had to be available to work 2 classes a month as a helper and I had to take a job at the preschool (my job was newsletter editor, which I loved doing because I am a Technical Writer). But the experience was so much more relaxed, the parents actually had a say in everything and hired the teachers, and the cost was affordable. Co-op is a great way to go, IMHO (if you can!)
Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/03/13 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
At this point, I'm trying to figure out why people don't form childcare cooperatives.

Presumably because they're busy working.
Posted By: Dude Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/03/13 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
At this point, I'm trying to figure out why people don't form childcare cooperatives.

We already do, we just don't call it that. We call it "play dates" and "sleep-overs."
Originally Posted by Elisa
Many colleges are at 60k a year including room, board, transportation and personal expenses. What each family pays varies based on income and assets. Each college calculates financial aid based on its own formula. To get an idea of how much your family might pay, go to a college's website and fill out the net price calculator. Some colleges are more generous than others. Some only give out need based aid while others give merit based aid to attract good students.

Remember, too, that "met need" in college parlance means that the bill gets paid.

The real bottom line there is that the number of "loan-free" institutions (much-touted back in 2005 and 2006) has quietly shrunk from several hundred to less than a few dozen.

So a college may well consider your costs to be covered-- that is, "need has been met" with financial aid package-- when:

a) EFC = 25% of household income, say 20K. If college tuition is 40K annually, then furthermore--


b) merit or need based scholarships = 6K
c) work-study, 2K
d) loans, 12K

Presto--

20 K of annual "need" has been met! Hurray!


Just noting that. If they don't specifically state that they don't consider loans to be part of financial aid packages when reporting what percentage of students have "need met" by the institution, then it means that loans ARE part of how they meet that need.



Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/04/13 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
a) EFC = 25% of household income, say 20K. If college tuition is 40K annually, then furthermore--


b) merit or need based scholarships = 6K
c) work-study, 2K
d) loans, 12K

Presto--

20 K of annual "need" has been met! Hurray!

And if costs are 60K, you can probably pile another 10-15K onto that loan.

Either way, presto ---

You have a student with a minimum of ~50K in loans and maybe up to 100K (many reasonable people would call the latter number "the equivalent of a mortgage"). And a solid chunk of it will be private loans (no bankruptcy protection, maybe even interest accrual while studying).

But need (especially the bank's laugh ) has been met!
Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/05/13 08:07 PM
Here's the latest idea to fleece students.

Elizabeth Warren wants to set student loans rates at the rates the big banks enjoy (currently <1%). The proposal in the first paragraph wants to set student loan rates at the 10-year Treasury rate plus three percent. The authors say that this is great because the current rate is 1.75%, so students would be paying <5%. grin grin grin

But...what will happen when Treasury rates go up? I think we all know what treasury rates looked like in the 70s. And the 80s (eek). And the 90s. And the 2000s. Err...

Perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps ten-year Treasury rates have now found a permanent home below 2%. You know: T rates will always go down, just like home values were always going to go UP.
Originally Posted by Val
Here's the latest idea to fleece students.

Elizabeth Warren wants to set student loans rates at the rates the big banks enjoy (currently <1%). The proposal in the first paragraph wants to set student loan rates at the 10-year Treasury rate plus three percent. The authors say that this is great because the current rate is 1.75%, so students would be paying <5%. grin grin grin

But...what will happen when Treasury rates go up? I think we all know what treasury rates looked like in the 70s. And the 80s (eek). And the 90s. And the 2000s. Err...

Perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps ten-year Treasury rates have now found a permanent home below 2%. You know: T rates will always go down, just like home values were always going to go UP.

I don't think our economy will function if interest rates rise.

So, they will keep rates near zero until something really bad happens.
Define 'really bad' there, if you will.

Because I'm thinking that the mortgage bubble... was really bad.

Collapse of real estate values nationwide... really bad again.

Majority of bankruptcies tied to medical debt... pretty much a new low of "really bad" if you ask me.

Impending retirement of a generation which will completely bankrupt both medicare and social security, leaving Gen X-ers with nothing... well, this seems really, really bad from my perspective AS a member of the leading edge of GenX.

Recent college graduate unemployment numbers over 10%... also really bad.

The fact that such debt is now undischargeable... whoahhhhh.. I think we're going to need some new words, because that strikes me as roughly analogous to calling Hiroshima "unfortunate collateral damage."

But maybe I'm missing something.

Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Define 'really bad' there, if you will.

Because I'm thinking that the mortgage bubble... was really bad.

Collapse of real estate values nationwide... really bad again.

Majority of bankruptcies tied to medical debt... pretty much a new low of "really bad" if you ask me.

Impending retirement of a generation which will completely bankrupt both medicare and social security, leaving Gen X-ers with nothing... well, this seems really, really bad from my perspective AS a member of the leading edge of GenX.

Recent college graduate unemployment numbers over 10%... also really bad.

The fact that such debt is now undischargeable... whoahhhhh.. I think we're going to need some new words, because that strikes me as roughly analogous to calling Hiroshima "unfortunate collateral damage."

But maybe I'm missing something.

Well, there's a problem with some of your analysis.

(Because I'm thinking that the mortgage bubble... was really bad.)

- It's been fixed with massive QE. Problem solved.

(Collapse of real estate values nationwide... really bad again.)

- It's been fixed with massive QE. Problem solved.

(Majority of bankruptcies tied to medical debt... pretty much a new low of "really bad" if you ask me.)

- This is irrelevant. Relevant people don't have this problem.

(Impending retirement of a generation which will completely bankrupt both medicare and social security, leaving Gen X-ers with nothing... well, this seems really, really bad from my perspective AS a member of the leading edge of GenX.)

- This problem can be solved with massive issuance of debt at 0% and/or more QE. To the extent that it can't, the problem is likely to only impact irrelevant people anyway.

(Recent college graduate unemployment numbers over 10%... also really bad.)

- I'm pretty sure that Princeton grads are still employable as high-powered consultants, I-bankers, or congressional staffers. The 10% are probably irrelevant people.

(The fact that such debt is now undischargeable... whoahhhhh..)

- Relevant people have their parents pay for college at Princeton.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.
You've explained very nicely, thank you. (er-- I think. LOL)

But you still haven't yet explained what those terms "really bad" actually mean.

I'm having trouble stretching my brain to encompass what it could possibly entail.

It's probably a sign that I'm irrelevant. wink LOL.


Ooo--OO-- I just need a printing press in my basement, don't I? That's it! I'm so happy that I understand now. I feel better. Thanks, JonLaw, for explaining how* College Can be Affordable for Me! grin

* well, until I get caught with my printing press.


Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/05/13 09:10 PM
HK, silly person.

"Really bad" means "affects people whose net worths are far north of 8 figures (on the left side of the decimal point) AND who make large contributions to the right politicians."

As JonLaw noted, everyone else is irrelevant.
Posted By: Wren Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/05/13 09:20 PM
Isn't it a matter of priorities? Canada wants lower tuition. The majority in congress vote for what the people want. Lower tuition isn't one of the priorities. Actually fixing anything isn't one of the priorities.
Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/05/13 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Wren
Isn't it a matter of priorities? Canada wants lower tuition. The majority in congress vote for what the people want. Lower tuition isn't one of the priorities. Actually fixing anything isn't one of the priorities.

Well, a large majority of Americans wanted some form of minor gun control after Newtown, and Congress pretty much ignored that.

Think you nailed it with your last sentence.
Posted By: Dude Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/05/13 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Wren
Isn't it a matter of priorities? Canada wants lower tuition. The majority in congress vote for what the people want. Lower tuition isn't one of the priorities. Actually fixing anything isn't one of the priorities.

Maybe in Canada. In the US, the majority in Congress votes for:

- What plays well in their preferred media outlets
- What their largest campaign contributors desire

Not necessarily in that order.
Where does spin figure into that, Dude? I think that you left that part out. wink

This is so OT, but it has finally happened.

I was wondering when the filial laws were triggered as I have been aware of this law for years, being a licensed PA lawyer and all.

Bwahahahaha.

"The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has declined to review lower court decisions in HCRA v. Pittas. As a result, adult children with an ill parent or parents should be aware that they can be successfully sued in Pennsylvania for the parent’s nursing home bill.

This is true even if the child or children did not transfer assets from the parent for their own enrichment, or even if there are other family members available. The decisions were based upon interpretation of the so called “filial support” laws in Pennsylvania."

http://www.pottsmerc.com/article/20...ome-bill-may-soon-be-your-responsibility
Is this very bad?

Or merely moderately so?

Posted By: Dude Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/05/13 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Where does spin figure into that, Dude? I think that you left that part out. wink

No, I didn't leave it out. That's what the media outlets are for.

The important thing is to always pretend you're winning. Actual results may vary, but reality is unimportant.

I recently saw Rep. John Dingell, the longest-serving Congressman, on the Colbert Report, and he noted that Congress has lost its "collegiality." But noting the changes in colleges since he began serving in 1955, I'm afraid the bigger problem is that it hasn't.
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Is this very bad?

Or merely moderately so?

Oh, it's good.

This means that the state will make sure that your children support you in your old age so you don't have to worry about saving for retirement.

Another problem solved.
Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/05/13 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Is this very bad?

Or merely moderately so?

Oh, it's good.

This means that the state will make sure that your children support you in your old age so you don't have to worry about saving for retirement.

Another problem solved.

Hey, I get it!

So, say you have three kids and they all need student loans. One of them is disabled at age 25 or so and can't pay off the loans. Mom and Dad get to pay them off.

But then Mom can't afford nursing home care for dad when he's 77 because they had to pay off $50,000 in loans plus interest.

It's okay because the state of PA can go after the kids and make them pay the bills.

What a wonderful circle of debt serfs!
Surely something from Les Mis would be appropriate here...



Maybe we should ask my DD, as she seems to excel at this kind of thing.



Originally Posted by HowlerKarma
Surely something from Les Mis would be appropriate here...



Maybe we should ask my DD, as she seems to excel at this kind of thing.

Made even more depressingly contemporary a la Rent...
Cost of in-state tuition and room and board at VA Tech is about $19,000.

Cost for a good full-day preschool in Northern Virginia for 9.5 months is about $16,000. Of course, many preschoolers wont get the summer off, so their parents will pay over $20,000 in a year.

So if you can afford preschool in NOVA, you can afford to send your kids to VA Tech, too (assuming they get in).
What is VA Tech's rate of acceptance among preschoolers these days, anyway?

Because it seems like ultimately that is something of a cost savings, given the 1K differential... wink

Posted By: Val Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/06/13 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by DAD22
Cost of in-state tuition and room and board at VA Tech is about $19,000.

Cost for a good full-day preschool in Northern Virginia for 9.5 months is about $16,000. Of course, many preschoolers wont get the summer off, so their parents will pay over $20,000 in a year.

So if you can afford preschool in NOVA, you can afford to send your kids to VA Tech, too (assuming they get in).

Well, if you can afford to pay for college, you can afford it.

I suspect that not everyone in northern Virginia can afford to send their kids to preschool.

It's the people who can't afford college who are having the biggest problems.
Also-- in case it wasn't obvious, just because you can afford a top-notch preschool in 2012 and 2013 does NOT mean that you'll be able to afford a similarly prestigious college in 2025 or so.

Given the rates of increase in college tuition, that 19K is likely to look more like 70K then.

The answer is clear. Best to send them to college as soon as humanly possible. wink

Quote
It's the people who can't afford college who are having the biggest problems.

And at the rate that things are going that includes almost all families except those at the very bottom and the extreme top ends of the income scale.

But as Jonlaw so pithily put it, those being excluded from the opportunities here are irrelevant.
Posted By: Dude Re: How much does college cost? Unified thread. - 06/06/13 04:07 PM
The escalating cost of health care has created a new industry called "medical tourism." How much further do college costs have to increase until we hit the price point at which it makes sense to pursue a degree at the University of Costa Rica?
You're extrapolating costs, HK. My point was one of perspective. At the current time, college and preschool can be about the same price. Yet in my experience, paying for college is made out to be much more daunting. We have federal loans, 529 plans, etc. to help pay for college. People are expected to save their pennies in the hopes of one day being able to help their kids go to college. I was quite surprised when I realized that I was already paying something similar to college education costs, and I was doing it without saving, and with little forethought. Of course that's not the case for everyone, but I'm not rich. I suppose I'm getting close by some definitions, but those definitions don't take location into account. I'm also not much of a spender. I tend to value money the way my parents taught me to ... and we weren't well off.

At any rate, I'm not sure if VA Tech has a summer program or what it would cost, but that would be something to consider for the PG preschooler ready for college wink
Originally Posted by Dude
The escalating cost of health care has created a new industry called "medical tourism." How much further do college costs have to increase until we hit the price point at which it makes sense to pursue a degree at the University of Costa Rica?

We're getting close to that already. Many of DD's peer cohort is looking at higher ed costs out of the US-- and they are nearly at parity now.

I'm not even talking about backwater institutions. We've price-shopped here and my DD could attend Trinity Dublin or the Sorbonne for roughly the same cost as attending any of the top 6 UC campuses.



College is less dependent on local COL than preschool, though, I'd say. I live in a low-COL area and one of the most expensive preschools in town cost us about $800/month full-time back in 2005-2007.
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