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Posted By: hinotes A sad realization last week.... - 03/05/12 09:17 PM
I had this odd moment last week. My daughter and I go to the local public school (ps) about once a week to check out books, help shelve books, and check out/check in books. My daughter adores the librarian there. While DD was in school, the librarian truly was her only saving grace while she was there.

We homeschool now.

So, anyway, we were in the library helping and in came a life skills class. Two students. Each has their own full-time aid. They have their complete own curriculum and classes. They were working on their colors and shapes, and this is the 3-5th grade school.

The sad part for me was that while I think it is completely awesome that they do this, my daughter (and those like her) who are on the other end of the spectrum can't get matched one bit to the curriculum that they need.
How is that the least bit fair? I was a bit mad and sad. Sad that the system won't put any effort into the other end of the spectrum. Sad that there are children like my daughter who are stuck in school and not getting what they need.

I just felt the need to share. It still is weighing heavily on my mind, to the point where I don't think I can handle going in there again when that class is there. My daughter was there as well and she is smart enough to put these things together, too.

I guess, it is something I always knew and certainly don't like but being in the same school that wouldn't accommodate her and watching this happen was a tad heart breaking.



Posted By: Saturday Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/05/12 10:23 PM
This part aggravates me as well. I work in a school and see it everyday. People are willing to bend over backwards to make accommodations for struggling students. I don't begrudge them; however, where is all the support for gifted students? There has been so many laws and advocates for special needs students. Until more laws are created, it will be an uphill climb.
Posted By: Val Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/05/12 11:00 PM
I think the pendulum has swung too far, and schools spend far too much on cognitively disabled students. Unfortunately, funding for these programs comes out of the general education budget and is one reason why the schools are so broke.

I'm not saying that kids with moderate to severe disabilities shouldn't get an appropriate education (I'm referring to disabilities that put them three or more years behind their peers). I just think we spend too much money on these programs.
Posted By: Dude Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/05/12 11:03 PM
Our society's educational priorities say a lot about itself.

Low ability: sympathy
High ability: jealousy

Posted By: DeeDee Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/05/12 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Dude
Our society's educational priorities say a lot about itself.

Low ability: sympathy
High ability: jealousy

In our well-heeled district, it looks more like this:

Low ability: constant advocacy and possibly legal action to get what your child needs
Average ability: easier path through the system
High ability: constant advocacy and possibly legal action to get what your child needs

I don't think the divisive tenor of this thread is kind or reflective of the reality that it's typically very difficult to get an appropriate education for any child who's an outlier.

IMO all children should get an appropriate education.

DeeDee
Posted By: Val Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/05/12 11:35 PM
DeeDee, I don't think that the posts here have said that some children shouldn't get an appropriate education (actually, most of the posters specifically said the opposite).

The numbers speak for themselves:

Originally Posted by Time Magazine article
To some extent, complacency is built into the system. American schools spend more than $8 billion a year educating the mentally retarded. Spending on the gifted isn't even tabulated in some states, but by the most generous calculation, we spend no more than $800 million on gifted programs.

I've cited only one source, but if you do a search, you'll find a lot of information supporting what I wrote here. I believe that this disparity was one of the major problems that drove the founding of the DITD.
Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 12:04 AM
DeeDee,

It is funny, I had a feeling someone would misunderstand what I was intending to say, so I hesitated on posting. I was just sharing my personal experience and saddness that my daughter isn't worthy of anything extra.

At our school, I was told that if they put my daughter ahead, she would be just as bored, so it is better to keep her where she is and just give her more work. Ack!

My point was, how can you deny some when others have so much. I don't think taking anything away from someone is the answer - I just don't understand why it isn't for all levels. That is all.
Exactly what you said - all children should have an appropriate education.

I am so thankful for places like this that make me feel not so alone. Thanks, all!
Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 12:10 AM
Again, not saying to take anything away from anyone.
Posted By: DeeDee Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 12:32 AM
Understood, Christine. I read your first post as MON did and come from a similar place on this as MON does.

We know a family locally that has a kid with Down's-- they are struggling to get anyone to realize their son is quite capable of learning to read. The special ed staff is overwhelmed enough with the even more severe needs of the other kids in his class that he isn't being educated appropriately, nor is he likely to reach his potential. It feels to me like a similar problem to yours, not an utterly different problem, even though the likelihood of your DD being successful in the end is much higher.

From where I sit (2E land), a need is a need. Many are going unmet. Public education promises a Chevy, not a Cadillac-- and yet lots of people don't even end up with a Chevy. We are solving this locally, ad hoc, by advocating like crazy for our child, knowing it will benefit those who come after, and supporting others in their advocacy (both for special needs and for gifted).

DeeDee

Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 12:52 AM
Yeah, I re-read my post and I see how it sounded. My apologies. Not my intention, for goodness sake. I know on both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between requires advocation like crazy.



Posted By: DawnKO Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by hinotes
Again, not saying to take anything away from anyone.

The reality, though, is that the amount of money available to schools is finite. Because tax revenues have plummeted since 2008, schools are cutting back, not adding programs. In many places, it's extremely difficult for kids with disabilities to get the services they need. If you want to add gifted programming in most places, you have to cut other programs. Our school district has cut all elementary gifted programs before 6th grade. I'm sorry about it, but it had to be done. Another nearby school district has cut programs for LD students left its elementary gifted programs in place.
Posted By: Austin Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by Dude
Our society's educational priorities say a lot about itself.

Low ability: sympathy
High ability: jealousy


Low ability: welfare
High ability: high taxes
Posted By: Austin Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by DawnKO
If you want to add gifted programming in most places, you have to cut other programs.

Grade acceleration or subject acceleration is FREE. Hiding behind "spending cuts" is an excuse, not a method.

If I had to cut programs, I'd cut the support staff including the admin staff, push responsibility and P/L down to the principals of each school. Each would then have to run the school as a true business. The trustees would then have a small accounting staff and one exec plus their assistant.

Posted By: JuliaS Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 02:15 AM
I completely agree. Gifted is a blessing but also a burden. As GT myself, I can attest to how stinky it can be until college & work.

I find it frustrating that I can't get the school to provide my son with a proper math & science education, but three kids in his class have full-time aides because of ADHD.

Our state mandates special ed, but nothing for giftedness - and worse, defines giftedness as exclusively in the arts? Excuse me, but don't we want talented math & science kids as well as gifted readers & language arts students?
Posted By: Bostonian Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Austin
Originally Posted by DawnKO
If you want to add gifted programming in most places, you have to cut other programs.

Grade acceleration or subject acceleration is FREE. Hiding behind "spending cuts" is an excuse, not a method.

Yes, and ability grouping is not only free but can save money. A teacher can handle more children in a class when the ability range is narrower. The government school monopoly is run as much for the benefit of the unionized teachers as it is for the students. The teachers unions oppose labor-saving practices.
Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 12:09 PM
I guess it would have helped if I initially included our history with our school. smile

They wouldn't even so much as give her a higher level text book, let alone consider accelerating her in anything.



Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Austin
If I had to cut programs, I'd cut the support staff including the admin staff, push responsibility and P/L down to the principals of each school. Each would then have to run the school as a true business. The trustees would then have a small accounting staff and one exec plus their assistant.

You can't really run schools like businesses.

In businesses, your customers aren't also your board of directors.

My father found out about that one the hard way.
Posted By: epoh Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Yes, and ability grouping is not only free but can save money. A teacher can handle more children in a class when the ability range is narrower. The government school monopoly is run as much for the benefit of the unionized teachers as it is for the students. The teachers unions oppose labor-saving practices.


The underlying assumption everyone (including teachers) seems to have is that public schools are for producing academically successful students who will go forward and have successful careers.

Sadly that is now how our public education system was designed. It was designed to produce moderately educated citizens, and (more importantly) obedient factory workers. This is still apparent with the loud school bell system, having children form straight lines, sit in identical chairs doing identical work.

If your purpose was to truly educate and help children grow and mature, think of how you would design a school. I highly doubt anyone would come up with the system we've got now.
Posted By: Dude Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Austin
Low ability: welfare
High ability: high taxes

Originally Posted by Bostonian
The government school monopoly is run as much for the benefit of the unionized teachers as it is for the students. The teachers unions oppose labor-saving practices.

Does every thread need your right-wing politics?
Posted By: Bostonian Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dude
Originally Posted by Austin
Low ability: welfare
High ability: high taxes

Originally Posted by Bostonian
The government school monopoly is run as much for the benefit of the unionized teachers as it is for the students. The teachers unions oppose labor-saving practices.

Does every thread need your right-wing politics?

I think you insert left-wing politics in some of your posts.

In this thread we are discussing why there are not more resources for gifted education. I think it is relevant to point out that a government monopoly staffed by unionized, tenured teachers will not use its resources effectively. Yes, this is a view more popular on the right than the left, but there are some Democrats who support charter schools and other efforts to
break the government school monopoly.
Posted By: Dude Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
I think you insert left-wing politics in some of your posts.

In this thread we are discussing why there are not more resources for gifted education. I think it is relevant to point out that a government monopoly staffed by unionized, tenured teachers will not use its resources effectively. Yes, this is a view more popular on the right than the left, but there are some Democrats who support charter schools and other efforts to
break the government school monopoly.

That wasn't an invitation to do it more.
Posted By: Mark D. Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 04:04 PM
Hello all - please stay on topic in regards to hinotes' original post.

Thanks!
Mark
Posted By: Austin Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Dude
Originally Posted by Austin
Low ability: welfare
High ability: high taxes

Does every thread need your right-wing politics?

LOL.

I am pretty left of center. I can remember when that was about something different than it is today.

A society built on one half not contributing and the other half being demonized is not one that is built on shared, egalitarian community values. After a while everyone is then in it for themselves. Which is exactly the opposite of what was intended.


Posted By: ABQMom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 04:59 PM
I understand the sentiment, hinote. It is tough and frustrating to watch our own child being short-changed no matter how reasonable, right or worthy it is that others are receiving support.

But when you consider the historical short-changing within our educational system, those on the higher end of the spectrum have always had more tools at hand to overcome the challenges presented than those who used to be institutionalized or completely denied access to an education at all. And the reason the plight of those at the lower end of the spectrum has changed is because of some very passionate, vocal advocates who worked tirelessly for years to change not only the educational opportunities but the laws within the country to provide rights to those individuals.

I personally don't think it has to be either/or. It will simply take those who are willing to be just as loud, vocal and reasonable in their advocacy for change for the needs of individuals on the high end of the spectrum.

I was having a chat with two of the high school gifted students who are interning with me this semester, and they were both vocalizing how difficult it is to get or even expect sympathy for their challenges. As one of them said, "Yeah, it's kinda hard to expect sympathy, no matter how true it is, when I say that I need help learning not to hide my intelligence or that I'm bored because I'm just oh-so-smart or that I deserve opportunities nobody else gets to experience because I have more to offer and to gain from the experience (such as the mentoring program that allows them to work for me for class credit)."

She's right. It's much easier to see the need, feel compelled to help when the need is so apparent and real as it is in the lower spectrum. It is going to take telling stories that the general population can accept, believe and get behind in order to gain mass support for the needs gifted kids face. It's a much more difficult task.

If we as parents make it an either/or option in our own minds or in our advocacy of our children's needs, we'll never win - and we shouldn't in an either/or scenario. So for me, it's about not comparing but simply advocating and telling stories that make those around us understand what our kids go through, what they need to succeed with their own set of needs.
Posted By: Val Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
...but there are some Democrats who support charter schools and other efforts to break the government school monopoly.

Charter schools aren't necessarily the answer. The school I complained about in my geometry/small vent thread is a charter school.

In California (other states too?), charter schools have no oversight. I've written about how terrible the math instruction is at DS's school (and it advertises itself as specializing in math and science, no less). Plus, so far this year, they've sent letters home twice requiring "donations" of cash or goods. These donations are "homework assignments," and if you don't donate, your child's grade suffers in one class (if you don't believe me, PM me and I'll email you proof). The school's charter promises x school days and y hours of instruction, and it falls way short on both counts. But no one can step in and say, "Fix this" because no one has direct supervisory authority. The superintendent can revoke the charter, but this pretty extreme and I expect it isn't easy. And to be honest, I'm not sure that he cares.

Charter schools basically get instant tenure. So if you think that a tenured poor teacher is bad, try a tenured poor school.

Posted By: Natk Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 06:11 PM
My Dad is semi-retired at 70 (was in sales until the last 10 years) and works as an aide teaching Life Skills in HS. The sad thing is he is the aide and he is the only one teaching and mentoring(Dad is college degreed with teacher certification). The two teachers could care less about helping these students out. We have a DD7 who tested into GT and my Dad feels that she should have the same learning oppurtunities as the disabled students. Accomadating GT kids is much cheaper (grade skips, sub acceleration, differentiation, GT only classrooms in larger school districts, etc.) than accommodating disabled students. Definitley, believe disabled students should get every opportunity available to them because after HS most programs stop. I swear my brother was 2E gifted but the school couldn't figure him out since he didnt fit inside a perfectly square box. He refused to do busy work or take notes but would ace tests. Unfortunately, he would fail the class due to not completing assignments. This was all in the 80s when no one had a clue and there were NO options. District wouldn't allow him to take courses at the tech or community college. He finally dropped out as a sophomore and was able to pass the GED on his first try without studying or taking all the HS courses. My brother is now thriving in the mechanical engineering field and is constantly being bombarded with job offers in this economy due to his natural raw talent that public schools could never harness. I just wish public schools could use their resources and energy more wisely and try help all students at all learning levels. My DD7 is bored to tears at school (literally) and is not getting any differentiation in school. GT students are grouped in math with kids that can't make atleast a 70 on their end of unit assessment (CBE). The students who don't pass get 1 hour of free tutoring per week from their teacher so they can try to comprehend the lesson so they might be able to pass the staar testing. There are 6 kids in her GT cluster class that can't pass math CBEs so the pace is ridiculously slow. Would sure be nice if the school would offer th GT students one free hour of challenging math work per week. I am all for tutoring students who are struggling (I struggled in math to say the least) but they are getting challenged my daughter is not. Now DD7 is a math buddy to one of these students so less learning will take place.....Ugghhh!
Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 06:22 PM
Natk - Thanks for your insight.

My daughter was also bored to tears. She developed stomach aches and major anxiety being asked to do work that she easily did two years ago. She said she felt like she didn't belong there. It was all of her classes.

She is out of school now two months and her stomach aches are completely gone. Anxiety is still there for her but not a daily issue anymore.

I teach her at the level she needs and she is doing fantastic. Very, very few people understand how hard it is for these kids to be held back so very much. It was truly painful for her. She would escape every chance she could in a book. Thank goodness for the library and that she had a teacher who would let her read any time she finished her work (which was pretty much the majority of the day).

Posted By: DAD22 Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 07:46 PM
hinotes, It sounds like public school was your first choice for your daughter, but her reaction to their lack of accommodation made you pull her out, right? Yet they can be very accommodating to those on the other end of the intelligence spectrum, and you witnessed this first hand. It certainly doesn't seem fair. I sure hope that public schools like yours become more accommodating of gifted children in the future.

It seems to me that the gifted children are the most likely to figure out the things that improve everyone's lives, and it would be in our best interest to help them reach their potential. Ultimately we can't answer the question about what schools should do without answering the question of what schools are for, and that's not the purpose of this thread. In fact, I'm not sure there's a place on this discussion board for that topic.

At any rate, I wish you and your daughter the best, and I hope that I find my public school accommodating of my kids' needs, whatever they might be.
Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 08:12 PM
DAD22-

What a lovely way to sum it up for me. Thanks. : )

I hope that your public school accommodates your childrens' needs as well, in the future.

I am thrilled to be able to be a part of my daughter's education like I am now, so all things have worked out for us in the end.

Thank you for making me smile.
Posted By: aculady Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 08:24 PM
It took me a few days to be able to write a semi-rational response to this...

In my experience, many schools are unwilling to provide appropriate services for anyone unless the parents advocate relentlessly, and often not even then, regardless of where on the intellectual spectrum a child falls. My son is rather dramatically 2E, and we homeschool in large part because it is just easier than having to take the district to court and fight constantly to get any accomodations for his disabilities or appropriate acceleration for his strengths.

It is a pervasive myth that students with disabilities have huge resources lavished on them and that they are generally getting an appropriate,individualized education.

It is likely that the parents of those two students went through the wringer to get an appropriate education for their children - and for all that, the education the children are getting still might not be appropriate: ESE programs are notorious for having the children placed in them fall further and further behind their age peers, when the whole point is supposed to be to provide intensive, targeted intruction to help them catch up.

The only reason many schools provide any ESE services at all to kids with disabilities is that the parents of kids with disabilities fought tooth and nail to get laws like the IDEA passed to force districts to educate their kids to at least a minimum level. While IDEA is the law of the land, it has never been fully funded, so only a fraction of the federal money that is supposed to be available to help districts provide services actually is, although they still have a legal mandate to provide a FAPE for children with disabilities. Full funding of the IDEA mandate would free up state and local education funds that could be used for gifted programs, so encouraging your congresspersons to support full IDEA funding could potentially help your district provide better services to the gifted children it should be serving.

If this is really something you feel strongly about, I recommend sharing "A Nation Deceived" with your local school board and your state and national senators and representatives, and joining state and national associations for the gifted and encouraging them to support state- or national-level legislation to codify a requirement for appropriate education services for gifted students.
Posted By: polarbear Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by aculady
It took me a few days to be able to write a semi-rational response to this...

I have to admit, I'm still not there with being able to write a semi-rational response! But fwiw, I second and agree with everything aculady said, and have experienced it first-hand as well in our school district.

I don't for one minute feel any sadness or frustration over the services someone else's child is receiving - I am happy for the kids who have services because I have yet to see a child receive services that aren't desperately needed. I also think that perhaps we are so focused on the extreme ends of intellectual prowess here at this forum, that we forget that the vast multitude of families parenting kids who fall into the big bubble of average on the bell curve, also have many similar frustrations with school.

polarbear
Posted By: ABQMom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 08:56 PM
I would like to add one additional thought to this conversation:

My first job out of college (Elementary/Special Education) was helping launch a transition team to help Special Education students make the transition between high school and viable work after high school.

It took 8 months to teach one student how to perform his job functions at a local chain restaurant - selecting a knife, a large fork, a salad fork and a spoon and then rolling them into a cloth napkin. But at the end of that 8 months, he knew how to do his job with perfection and worked there for almost 10 years instead of spending his days in a group home or a bedroom in his parent's home. His IQ was around 65. Other students were taught to peel and core apples at a bakery, detail cars at an auto dealer, and bag groceries at a grocery store. I taught them how to ride the bus, clock in and out, and manage specific behaviors that were a problem in the work place.

I've spent time, energy, tears, and effort at both ends of the spectrum. Both have unique challenges that require parents to spent countless hours not only fighting for the appropriate accommodations but more energy at home working with their child to aim for the best possible outcome.

I have the utmost respect to parents who give a da**, get involved in their kid's education, and fight for better options and outcomes - no matter whether their child has an IQ of 60, 100, or 200.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by ABQMom
It took 8 months to teach one student how to perform his job functions at a local chain restaurant - selecting a knife, a large fork, a salad fork and a spoon and then rolling them into a cloth napkin. But at the end of that 8 months, he knew how to do his job with perfection and worked there for almost 10 years instead of spending his days in a group home or a bedroom in his parent's home. His IQ was around 65. Other students were taught to peel and core apples at a bakery, detail cars at an auto dealer, and bag groceries at a grocery store. I taught them how to ride the bus, clock in and out, and manage specific behaviors that were a problem in the work place.

This training does work for low-IQ people. Once they (finally) get the hang of it, they are quite able to do it.

It just takes a lot of time to get them to that point and it is better than a group home or in the parents' home.
Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
Originally Posted by ABQMom
It took 8 months to teach one student how to perform his job functions at a local chain restaurant - selecting a knife, a large fork, a salad fork and a spoon and then rolling them into a cloth napkin. But at the end of that 8 months, he knew how to do his job with perfection and worked there for almost 10 years instead of spending his days in a group home or a bedroom in his parent's home. His IQ was around 65. Other students were taught to peel and core apples at a bakery, detail cars at an auto dealer, and bag groceries at a grocery store. I taught them how to ride the bus, clock in and out, and manage specific behaviors that were a problem in the work place.

This training does work for low-IQ people. Once they (finally) get the hang of it, they are quite able to do it.

It just takes a lot of time to get them to that point and it is better than a group home or in the parents' home.


This is awesome! ABQ Mom, you sound super cool! Thanks for all that you do!!!
Posted By: Lori H. Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 10:04 PM
I remember being very sad when I found out that "appropriation education" in our public school was a lie. My son could not get OT for dysgraphia because he was too smart to fail and they would not let him learn at the advanced level he was capable of. The state gifted coordinator's office said there was nothing they could do, that I would have to get our state law changed. We had no real choice but to homeschool.

My adult daughter went to public school and did not get a good education but it did not take away the innate ability to learn faster than a lot of other people. It did not take away her ability to learn on her own what she needed to know. She was able to easily get jobs that normally required a college degree because she learned quickly and could make better scores on tests than the college educated people. She worked at different jobs until she had the right experience. That experience combined with her excellent social skills is what makes her successful.

I think a lot of people with disabilities would have trouble getting good jobs without help and I would rather they get that help when funding is limited. My son's disabilities, which will probably continue to cause some chronic pain as an adult, should still be able to get a good job with his dysgraphia and pain if he gets a good education. I do wish our family could keep some of the money that we spend on taxes so that we could afford to do more to help our son with his disabilities and education. We are middle class and not poor enough to get help from the government and not rich enough to be able to afford help.

I am hoping that my daughter does end up marrying the millionnaire she is dating so she won't have to worry about school problems when she has kids.

Posted By: Bostonian Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by ABQMom
It took 8 months to teach one student how to perform his job functions at a local chain restaurant - selecting a knife, a large fork, a salad fork and a spoon and then rolling them into a cloth napkin. But at the end of that 8 months, he knew how to do his job with perfection and worked there for almost 10 years instead of spending his days in a group home or a bedroom in his parent's home. His IQ was around 65. Other students were taught to peel and core apples at a bakery, detail cars at an auto dealer, and bag groceries at a grocery store. I taught them how to ride the bus, clock in and out, and manage specific behaviors that were a problem in the work place.

I doubt that public school teachers can better prepare low-IQ youths for these jobs than the employers can themselves. Subsidizing apprenticeships would likely be more effective than spending ever-greater amounts on special education.
Posted By: ABQMom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Originally Posted by ABQMom
It took 8 months to teach one student how to perform his job functions at a local chain restaurant - selecting a knife, a large fork, a salad fork and a spoon and then rolling them into a cloth napkin. But at the end of that 8 months, he knew how to do his job with perfection and worked there for almost 10 years instead of spending his days in a group home or a bedroom in his parent's home. His IQ was around 65. Other students were taught to peel and core apples at a bakery, detail cars at an auto dealer, and bag groceries at a grocery store. I taught them how to ride the bus, clock in and out, and manage specific behaviors that were a problem in the work place.

I doubt that public school teachers can better prepare low-IQ youths for these jobs than the employers can themselves. Subsidizing apprenticeships would likely be more effective than spending ever-greater amounts on special education.

Do you seriously know an employer that would be willing to pay any amount at all to spend 8 months teaching someone how to do what is only a very small part of a "normal" job description? The only way these kids were taken in by these employers is because there were tax subsidies for being a part of the transitional program. This is such a better use of tax dollars than the money that used to go into supporting institutions that locked these kids away for life.

Where your idea works great is with kids at the opposite end of the spectrum. Our high school offers gifted kids an opportunity to explore mentorships with local employers in a field of interest. Not only does it give the kids some real-world experience, it supplements what can often be a fairly unchallenging academic program at school.
Posted By: daytripper75 Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 10:50 PM
My daughter's school found a way to meet the needs of both high achieving and cognitively impaired students. Each child in the district who meets one or other of the sets of criteria attend the same school for differentiated education. The two groups of students work together to achieve common goals and the district benefits greatly.
I don't know why every county in the country doesn't have one of these schools. Everyone deserves an education and symbiosis is possible!
Posted By: Bostonian Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by master of none
Again, I apologize. I think it's time for a break from the forum.

I do find your messages informative, since you have experience with how special ed works. Thanks.
Posted By: hinotes Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Originally Posted by master of none
Again, I apologize. I think it's time for a break from the forum.

I do find your messages informative, since you have experience with how special ed works. Thanks.


masterofnone - I was thinking the same thing (on the apologies and forum break.) Holy Cow, do I know how to start a discussion or what? wink I do think your messages are informative as well!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your understanding.

Posted By: La Texican Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/06/12 11:00 PM
You must have been the one who mentioned that. I remembered reading once about somebody who's child was gifted and being taughted in a special Ed school. The part I remember reading was that the special Ed teachers were a good fit for the gifted child in that case because they were more flexible and already experienced in differentiation.
Posted By: LNEsMom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
Originally Posted by ABQMom
It took 8 months to teach one student how to perform his job functions at a local chain restaurant - selecting a knife, a large fork, a salad fork and a spoon and then rolling them into a cloth napkin. But at the end of that 8 months, he knew how to do his job with perfection and worked there for almost 10 years instead of spending his days in a group home or a bedroom in his parent's home. His IQ was around 65. Other students were taught to peel and core apples at a bakery, detail cars at an auto dealer, and bag groceries at a grocery store. I taught them how to ride the bus, clock in and out, and manage specific behaviors that were a problem in the work place.

I doubt that public school teachers can better prepare low-IQ youths for these jobs than the employers can themselves. Subsidizing apprenticeships would likely be more effective than spending ever-greater amounts on special education.


I doubt the most employers have the the patience of ABQMom and other special ed teachers (nor the inclination) to spend the time needed to help these students learn their jobs, even if the apprenticeship were subsidized. Plus, special ed teachers also teach them valuable general life skills (like riding the bus and making sure to be there on time, grocery shopping, etc.) help students be as independent and self-sufficient as possible upon adulthood.

Posted By: Bostonian Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by La Texican
You must have been the one who mentioned that. I remembered reading once about somebody who's child was gifted and being taughted in a special Ed school. The part I remember reading was that the special Ed teachers were a good fit for the gifted child in that case because they were more flexible and already experienced in differentiation.

I disagree. Gifted kids, especially, need smart teachers with subject expertise, since (for example) teachers who don't know algebra cannot teach it. A study http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/01/physical-education-teachers-are-not-smart/ has found that special ed teachers have lower SAT scores than other elementary school teachers . Only gym teachers have lower average scores.

Posted By: Beckee Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
I doubt that public school teachers can better prepare low-IQ youths for these jobs than the employers can themselves. Subsidizing apprenticeships would likely be more effective than spending ever-greater amounts on special education.


The kind of students we are describing are a tiny percentage of the population of special education students. Where I teach, most student who receive special education services are in general education classrooms for most of the school day. Many of them continue on to college or post-secondary vocational training.

US Schools are required to work with high school special education students and/or their parents in order to create a plan to transition to life after graduation. This takes the individual strengths, challenges and interests of the student into account. There are any number of things that might go into these plans, and any number of community partners that might be involved.
Posted By: Val Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by Beckee
The kind of students we are describing are a tiny percentage of the population of special education students.

I guess this is one thing that bothers me about spending on special education. The non-mainstreamed students may only be a relative handful of students, but the spending on them starts at "high" and goes to "astronomical."

Many people here have said that they don't want to take things away from special ed. students, especially given how they were treated before the 1970s. I see that point, but I also see that overspending on special education takes funding away from everyone else. Why is that okay? (I don't think it is; I think that people are just used to the idea.)

Do I think these students should be denied an appropriate education? Of course not. They have a right to an education. Do I think that programs targeting them should get as much funding as they do? No, I don't. Gifted and talented students have a right to an appropriate education too.
Posted By: Beckee Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 05:18 AM
I can see your point of view, but schools, districts, or states that do not adequately provide for the needs of these students can find themselves under a federal consent decree. Hawaii ended up quadrupling its special education budget as a result of one of those, so you could describe the cost-cutting measures of the state as being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Posted By: Val Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 06:39 AM
Yes, exactly. frown

I guess this is one of these situations that started out doing something good and then got out of control at some point.

Posted By: deacongirl Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 01:40 PM
I continue to be shocked at the perception that parents of kids with special needs at the other end of the spectrum have a walk in the park and that an appropriate education for these kids is a given.

My kid with Down syndrome would have been parked in a class with a completely inappropriate education in the district we moved from. Our only alternative was to put him in private school for the past 5 years and fund a 1:1 aide, including her health insurance some of those years, at obviously an extreme financial sacrifice. The speech therapy he received from the public school was far less than adequate, so we paid that out of pocket. While I am currently filling out the DYS application that will provide free advocacy for his big sister, there was no such thing for him. We paid for advocacy and educational consultants ourselves.

Now he is an excellent public school district--but again, the idea that he will automatically be given what he needs is just unfathomable. This kid has tons of potential, but because of a significant speech delay and other issues, he will also need tons of advocacy to make sure that expectations are high. And the money invested in his education by taxpayers now will provide a great return on investment when he is able to work and live independently.

FWIW, a friend who is a surgeon told me that the best scrub tech she knows has Down sydrome--do you seriously think that without an appropriate education and job training in public schools that that individual would have had that opportunity?

Thanks MON, aculady and ABQmom for speaking up on this issue.
Posted By: Beckee Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 03:26 PM
This is two posts in one: about special education and gifted education, and why theory applied to one should apply to the other.

About half of special education students in the United States qualify under the eligibility category of Specific Learning Disability (which is not nearly as specific as it sounds). Theoretically, this would include dyslexia, but schools rarely use that term. For one thing, it's a medical diagnosis, and there's probably not one person in the school district that is qualified to make that diagnosis.

For another thing, it's not a particularly useful label for educational programming. Schools are more interested in ways to help children with disabilities learn than the exact medical nature of the glitch in their information processing, for the most part. Some of us are very interested in exact glitches!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been a co-teacher in the past. In fact, once we had three teachers in one classroom: general education, English language instruction (70% of our students spoke another language at home) and special education. I'll be co-teaching again next year for the first time in about eight years. I'm really looking forward to it!

When I first became a teacher, the mother of a student in my first homeroom told me that her daughter was gifted on the first day of school. I thought I knew what to do for her, but I was wrong. In any case, I quickly became overwhelmed trying to deal with the all the needs, issues, and behaviors going on in my classroom.

Ten years later, I've had very little in the way of professional development for gifted students. I've done quite a bit of reading on my own time. I have had quite a bit of training and experience in the array of supports and services for disabled children and struggling learners.

And that's the part that I want to apply to gifted children. You choose from an array of supports and services to meet the needs of the individual child--not the category. Just as differentiated instruction in the classroom with everybody else is the best option for some disabled children, while others need a separate class or even school, gifted children need different kinds of options, too.

Multiply that by the tiny percentage of children that are gifted, the tendency of most of them to read quietly after they've finished their work, the lack of laws and enforcement that require schools to provide services for gifted students, the lack of professional development for teachers on this set of issues*, the reluctance of parents to advocate collectively for gifted education**, and it's little wonder that administrators rarely make it a priority.

*In my state, gifted teacher training is a portion of one college course on differentiated instruction.

**I bet there's a whole doctoral dissertation waiting to be written on that subject. I have noticed that teachers who are parents of gifted children are the first to shoot down any suggestion that would not have been useful for their child.

Posted By: CAMom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/07/12 03:38 PM
Deacongirl-

I do completely understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I have seen too many friends' kids with disabilities, autism spectrum issues and other problems that the school did not handle appropriately and the kids did not receive appropriate education.

For me, though, the problem comes down to legal standing. In CA, I have absolutely NO legal standing on appropriate education for my child. I throw around FAPE, sure, and administrators that aren't so knowledgeable rack their brains and give in to what my son needs because they don't know any better. The ones that do know better just laugh us off.

Or worse, these admins play what I call "the meeting dance." "We'll meet with you after the teacher gets to know him. Oh, after the first quarter. Did we say 1st quarter? We meant Thanksgiving. Haha- we can't meet between Thanksgiving and Christmas! After the holidays things will settle down. Yes, we know it's February, but really- we start test prep next week so there won't be any differentiation anyway." And suddenly... it's April and there has been no actual education.

On top of no legal standing, we also have no funding for gifted education that is mandated to be spent on gifted ed. Which means that teachers that actually do care and are educated, have zero resources in most districts. It's very hard to convince a brand new teacher who has an interest but no money, to throw her own cash at a higher level curriculum. So we end up purchasing it for the school as a "gift."

For the most part, we are left to the whims and kindness of a school system that really doesn't care.

I take that back, they care three weeks out of the year when he is forced to produce test scores that get the school funding and cover their mistakes with the bottom 20%.

What you're sensing is not anger, it's complete frustration at a system that is broken for most of the kids! I say this as a classroom teacher and a school administrator myself. Even from within the system, you can barely make small changes, let alone sweeping changes. It took me two years and two school board votes to get a math placement test instituted in 6th grade. A placement test!!! That didn't even count the time to get the leveling of courses approved... that was just the test.
Posted By: irishmaggie Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/14/12 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by La Texican
You must have been the one who mentioned that. I remembered reading once about somebody who's child was gifted and being taughted in a special Ed school. The part I remember reading was that the special Ed teachers were a good fit for the gifted child in that case because they were more flexible and already experienced in differentiation.

My son started in the special education program. He had severe behavior issues and I am so grateful for every second of attention his special school district teachers gave him. It also helped him learn a great deal of patience and compassion when dealing with children who had a harder time with things that were easier for him. Now he's tested gifted, but I'll never forget those amazing people with SSD who helped my son and our family so much in the beginning.

Just a note, while his speech issue has stumped most teachers and even the speech therapist his SSD teacher can always get him to say the c or k sound. Even when we see her at the grocery store. ;-)

And as for the comment that SSD teachers have lower SAT scores. I just can't believe that knowing the wonderful compassionate & dedicated teachers I met. Perhaps I'm just fortunate in my school district who is committed to both gifted & special school options, but really I doubt it.
Posted By: aculady Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/14/12 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by irishmaggie
And as for the comment that SSD teachers have lower SAT scores. I just can't believe that knowing the wonderful compassionate & dedicated teachers I met. Perhaps I'm just fortunate in my school district who is committed to both gifted & special school options, but really I doubt it.


It is, unfortunately, true.
Posted By: LNEsMom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/14/12 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by aculady
Originally Posted by irishmaggie
And as for the comment that SSD teachers have lower SAT scores. I just can't believe that knowing the wonderful compassionate & dedicated teachers I met. Perhaps I'm just fortunate in my school district who is committed to both gifted & special school options, but really I doubt it.


It is, unfortunately, true.



Irishmaggie, your experiences, however, would suggest that SAT scores alone are not a sufficient measure of who makes a good teacher. The qualities you mention, compassion, dedication, and I would add a huge amount of patience!, are also key characteristics, as well as the ability to explain things well to others, which does not necessarily go along with higher intelligence. We should be careful, I think, not to undervalue these characteristics by focusing too exclusively on SAT scores when measuring teacher skills.
Posted By: aculady Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/14/12 06:53 PM
I'd also note that average SAT scores for a given profession tell you very little about the intellectual acheivement of a given individual, and also note that it may be possible that some of the people who are drawn to special ed may be drawn there because they have struggled with learning challenges of their own, some of which can adversely impact performance on standardized performance measures without actually being an indication of lower intelligence, and so this could lower the average of the scores without necessarily indicating that special ed teachers are not as bright as teachers in other specialties.


So, the data have their limitations. But my personal experience with special ed teachers has led me to believe that there is a wide range of abilities represented in that profession, and I'm not entirely surprised that the mean of the profession's SAT curve is below the average for other teachers and for college graduates as a group.
Posted By: La Texican Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/14/12 08:36 PM
On one hand I think a special Ed teacher would do better with gifted kids because, like Beckee said, (I think) "they worry more about shoring up the next skill that's missing than about the diagnosis (or presumably the syllabus). In other words they're likely more practical. On the other hand I like when I read about proving gifted kids with teachers that actually Really know their subject. That's just not an option in every area of the country.
Posted By: eldertree Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/14/12 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Austin
Originally Posted by Dude
Our society's educational priorities say a lot about itself.

Low ability: sympathy
High ability: jealousy


Low ability: welfare
High ability: high taxes

That's inaccurate, and completely out of line.
Posted By: Austin Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/14/12 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by eldertree
That's inaccurate, and completely out of line.

How so?

Let's take the example of a young person who becomes a Physician.

They not only work long hours, heal the sick, take on pro bono cases, but they are then pushed into a very high tax bracket. And probably carry very high student loans. All that hard work and debt and worry for what? They even put off having kids until their late 30s. When they marry, they marry another doctor or similarly skilled high wage earner. Now they both get hit by the marriage penalty. Again, a stable family carrying an even higher load. Then, on top of that, they are demagogued as not paying their fair share.

What is fair about that?

Its not. And its not out of line.

This is what awaits those with high ability who strive and follow the rules.

Add in how they were probably ostracized in school, or worse, for being smart. How they were ignored by public schools or worse.

So why strive? Why give a flip or even try if you are smart and ambitious? A smart kid will figure this contradiction out pretty quick.

I think this is a major source of the angst a lot of GT kids feel. Society as a whole sends a very mixed message on whether it is good or not to be smart and ambitious.
Posted By: Meercat Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 11:25 AM
The statement is inaccurate, or at the very least overgeneralized. My personal experience = husband with a PhD in high energy physics, highest tax bracket (through hard work, not inheritance), and an effective tax rate in the teens.

The current tax laws are not set up as some kind of punishment for high IQ, but they do punish hard work by taxing income earned for labor at a higher rate than the tax rate on investments. Argue about double taxation all you like, but the result is that as income gets over about 500K per year, the tax rate tends to begin to drop, and it continues to drop and drop and drop. The tax system is set up in such a way that those at the very low and very high end of the spectrum have very low rates of taxation, while the masses in the middle bear the bulk of the financial weight. And as someone who has been in just about every tax bracket during this lifetime, it disturbs me how effective those at the very high end of the financial spectrum have been at turning the anger of many in the middle class against those who have very little. Personally I believe that (very justified IMO) anger should really be aimed at those with the finances to control the puppet strings.

However, Austin, you are correct that physicians, who tend to earn less than 500K unless they're in cosmetic surgery, do get horribly screwed for all their hard work. Hopefully getting rich wasn't their main goal when choosing that career.

Hard work does not necessarily equal money, poor does not necessarily equal lazy, and genius IQ does not necessarily mean high tax rate.

Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Meercat
The statement is inaccurate, or at the very least overgeneralized. My personal experience = husband with a PhD in high energy physics, highest tax bracket (through hard work, not inheritance), and an effective tax rate in the teens.

If I thought high energy physics Ph.D. could obtain "highest tax bracket", I would have probably pursued that rather than a legal career. But we all make financial assumptions when strategically planning our career arcs.

In fact, that would probably be much easier for me than law, being that it was actually an area where I had actual talent.

In fact, given what I know now, I would basically never have made any of the major life choices I made. But that's life. You only tend to know how to make choices, or what those choices really mean, when it's too late.

Physicians are relatively secure due to the structure of their guild.
Posted By: jack'smom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 02:50 PM
I'm naive but I really think personal happiness comes from pursuing the things you love, both personally and professionally. If you want to be a high energy PhD in physics, go for it! I love being a physician, so the long hours and all of that didn't bother me.
I do think that if you are ambitious and have some talent, as most gifted kids probably do, the sky is the limit!
Posted By: Bostonian Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by jack'smom
I'm naive but I really think personal happiness comes from pursuing the things you love, both personally and professionally. If you want to be a high energy PhD in physics, go for it! I love being a physician, so the long hours and all of that didn't bother me.
I do think that if you are ambitious and have some talent, as most gifted kids probably do, the sky is the limit!

There is a perennial overproduction of PhDs compared to the number of jobs available for researchers and academics. In your early 20s you may be guided primarily by intellectual curiosity, but when you are older and need to support a family, a string of 2-year post-doc positions or being paid $1000 to teach a course as an adjunct stinks. I suggest that only the very best college graduates -- people who were stars in their department as undergrads -- should try to get a PhD.
Posted By: kikiandkyle Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 04:56 PM
In my opinion the general thinking is that a gifted child will do alright in the world no matter what (I don't personally think that's true and I think a lot of people are also suddenly realizing it may not be true either), whereas a child with special education requirements may stand a good chance of not ever becoming an independent person without that extra assistance in childhood.

Yes it breaks my heart that my daughter isn't offered the chance to develop her abilities more in school time because she's meeting all the benchmarks they need her to, but I know that the people of this country aren't willing to pay more taxes for it to happen. I mean a good amount of people don't think we should even be able to get healthcare if we aren't multi-millionaires.

If there is only going to be a certain amount of money to spend, it should go to those who need it more. My daughter will be fine if they never give her a single day of differentiation. My autistic brother who did receive special education would not have been.
Posted By: kikiandkyle Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 05:00 PM
On PhDs, personally I think you should have to have a certain number of years working in the field of study before you can study for one. The perspective that life experience can bring is invaluable in my opinion.
Posted By: jack'smom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 05:21 PM
I think simply being a gifted child isn't enough- they need to have a good work ethic to harnass that vast potential. I don't think they will do alright no matter what- but I can see why so much of our school's resources go for the kids who are below grade level and not above grade level.
That is true about PhDs. There was an interesting thread here a few months ago about having a PhD in Chemistry- apparently that used to be a great job but now that has been largely outsourced to China/India/etc. and there is alot of job insecurity there.
I do think talking to gifted children about the reality of the work world is important.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Bostonian
There is a perennial overproduction of PhDs compared to the number of jobs available for researchers and academics. In your early 20s you may be guided primarily by intellectual curiosity, but when you are older and need to support a family, a string of 2-year post-doc positions or being paid $1000 to teach a course as an adjunct stinks. I suggest that only the very best college graduates -- people who were stars in their department as undergrads -- should try to get a PhD.

I think in my early 20's, I was primarily guided by "how much money do I need to become economically and politically relevant later in life?"
Posted By: DAD22 Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by kikiandkyle
I mean a good amount of people don't think we should even be able to get healthcare if we aren't multi-millionaires.

Political hyperbole or complete straw man? I can't decide.
Posted By: Wren Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 07:57 PM
A little off topic. Seeing all this political stuff about low tax rates on the rich etc and the haves and have nots, it seems difficult to enact on a big scale when in DD's class at school, bidding for extra gym time in the school auction, I ran into such dynamics, I felt I was back in high school, instead of dealing with parents. We have the best elementary school in all of NYC (Blackboard award 2011) and people complain about donating $73. Just want someone else to pay for it. I ended up underwriting one girl because the parents were just too annoying.

I just basically expect that you have to pay for it and push and push, to give your kid options in today's society and hope my kid figures it out. Seeing that she has learned my bargaining techniques from the markets in Egypt, I am gaining confidence. We watched Eye of the Leopard on PBS again. And I am reminded that you teach your kid to survive and hope they do. But you have to teach them everything.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/15/12 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by jack'smom
That is true about PhDs. There was an interesting thread here a few months ago about having a PhD in Chemistry- apparently that used to be a great job but now that has been largely outsourced to China/India/etc. and there is alot of job insecurity there.

This was kind of my point.

Even back in the late 1990s law looked like the better financial option than an engineering Ph.D.

If I could actually get into the highest tax bracket with a Ph.D. that would be kind of nice.
Posted By: Meercat Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
Originally Posted by Meercat
The statement is inaccurate, or at the very least overgeneralized. My personal experience = husband with a PhD in high energy physics, highest tax bracket (through hard work, not inheritance), and an effective tax rate in the teens.

If I thought high energy physics Ph.D. could obtain "highest tax bracket", I would have probably pursued that rather than a legal career. But we all make financial assumptions when strategically planning our career arcs.

In fact, that would probably be much easier for me than law, being that it was actually an area where I had actual talent.

Well, he's obviously not working in academics wink My point was that high IQ is in no way tied to some kind of high tax rate "punishment."

One problem with the way the current system is set up is that judging from the CEO's I've met, a high IQ is far less important than a low golf handicap when it comes to who they listen to concerning major business decisions. Sadly, a bachelors in PE might have been the ticket in your quest for wealth. wink
Posted By: ABQMom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by Meercat
... judging from the CEO's I've met, a high IQ is far less important than a low golf handicap when it comes to who they listen to concerning major business decisions. Sadly, a bachelors in PE might have been the ticket in your quest for wealth. wink

Generalizations and blanket statements drive me crazy. Perhaps you should meet more CEO's. I'm one, and I don't even play golf.
Posted By: Meercat Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by ABQMom
Originally Posted by Meercat
... judging from the CEO's I've met, a high IQ is far less important than a low golf handicap when it comes to who they listen to concerning major business decisions. Sadly, a bachelors in PE might have been the ticket in your quest for wealth. wink

Generalizations and blanket statements drive me crazy. Perhaps you should meet more CEO's. I'm one, and I don't even play golf.


Apologies. I wasn't meaning to offend with my teasing, and I certainly didn't intend for anyone to believe my statement applied to ALL CEO's (that would have blanketed my husband as well, and heaven knows he wouldn't know what to do with a golf club. smile )I was simply attempting to humorously show that there are obviously many paths to success, that following a certain path isn't a guarantee to success or wealth, and IQ is useful but isn't always necessary. I've seen situations where IQ can even be a hindrance in certain "Good Old Boy" business networks where SOME CEO's may feel intimidated by extreme intelligence and choose to trust people they feel more socially secure with.

Everyone wants to believe that if they work hard and follow the "right" educational path that the sky is the limit on how much money they can make, but everybody underestimates the amount of luck that factors in. You are lucky if you remain healthy, you are lucky if you were born into a family that can afford to send you to college or you are lucky if you were born with the intelligence to get a scholarship, or maybe you were lucky to simply be born looking this generation's definition of beautiful. Hard work can overcome a lot of these obstacles, and someone blessed with a high IQ or charm can "make" a lot of their own luck, but I'm not so sure we have as much control over our destiny as we like to tell ourselves.

Posted By: Wren Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 06:18 PM
I don't think there has been a "Good Old Boy's" network for a long time. The last I remember, that had any strength, was the Atlanta boys from NAPA auto parts and they were getting kind of old in the 80s. And they were limited to auto parts aftermarket.

You would think good social and political skills would get you a CEO spot, but look at that idiot they had in charge of BP when the spill happened. He came up the geology route, a good science kid.

Even that guy who wrote Outliers, admitted, that you can do the work, but you still need opportunity. Creating the opportunity is the skill for success. Maybe there is a book there....
Posted By: Meercat Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 06:55 PM
We seem to have slightly different definitions of what a "good old boy" network is. Mine has more to do with attitude than organization. All I know is that advice from the smartest people in the room is often ignored because trust is not always weighted by a person's IQ. Sorry if my thoughts are not clear in type.
Posted By: La Texican Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 07:30 PM
If you're saying the jobs go to people who know people or to whom they can relate then maybe that's why so many articles suggest EQ trumps IQ when it comes to work. On the one hand if you have to work with someone you want it to be someone you can work with. Maybe the key is to focus on trying not to make people uncomfortable.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by La Texican
If you're saying the jobs go to people who know people or to whom they can relate then maybe that's why so many articles suggest EQ trumps IQ when it comes to work.

I'm currently trying to get my EQ increased from "extremely poor" to "somewhat poor".

A lot of what is referred to as "luck" has to do with understanding social cues, social interaction, etc.

Without that, you are toast, career-wise. Which is how my career ended up as toast, so to speak.



Posted By: aculady Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
Originally Posted by La Texican
If you're saying the jobs go to people who know people or to whom they can relate then maybe that's why so many articles suggest EQ trumps IQ when it comes to work.

A lot of what is referred to as "luck" has to do with understanding social cues, social interaction, etc.

Without that, you are toast, career-wise.

This is what keeps me awake nights worrying about my son.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by aculady
Originally Posted by JonLaw
Originally Posted by La Texican
If you're saying the jobs go to people who know people or to whom they can relate then maybe that's why so many articles suggest EQ trumps IQ when it comes to work.

A lot of what is referred to as "luck" has to do with understanding social cues, social interaction, etc.

Without that, you are toast, career-wise.

This is what keeps me awake nights worrying about my son.

I'm pretty sure that they are skills that can be learned and improved with practice. The key would seem to be feedback and a willingness to learn.
Posted By: Meercat Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by La Texican
If you're saying the jobs go to people who know people or to whom they can relate then maybe that's why so many articles suggest EQ trumps IQ when it comes to work. On the one hand if you have to work with someone you want it to be someone you can work with. Maybe the key is to focus on trying not to make people uncomfortable.

Ah, but it can be dangerous to spend your life focussed on making sure other people are not "uncomfortable." Perhaps smart girls need to learn to not use big words so they won't make the boys around them feel stupid? Been there, done that, and I admit it worked but the "success" wasn't very satisfying. Or maybe smart boys need to learn some manly sport they aren't interested in just so they will be more accepted by their peers and managers? Regardless of which is the wise move for "success", I do appreciate those who fight against what I see as unreasonable expectations of others to feel "comfortable." At this point in my life I prefer myself when I have the guts to speak the truth as I see it even if it makes others feel a tad uncomfortable. I find that those who stick around, in life or business, especially when we disagree honestly, are the ones worth having around. Very little in life is simple as we get older, eh? wink
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by Meercat
Ah, but it can be dangerous to spend your life focussed on making sure other people are not "uncomfortable." Perhaps smart girls need to learn to not use big words so they won't make boys around them feel stupid? Been there, done that, and I admit it worked but the "success" wasn't very satisfying. Or maybe smart boys need to learn some manly sport they aren't interested in just so they will be more accepted by their peers?

I don't think we're talking about girls using big words and boys learning to play sports.

Professionally, I'm allowed to make the opposing side as uncomfortable as possible. That tends to be what happens when you sue them, so it's really unavoidable.
Posted By: Meercat Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by JonLaw
I don't think we're talking about girls using big words and boys learning to play sports.

Professionally, I'm allowed to make the opposing side as uncomfortable as possible. That tends to be what happens when you sue them, so it's really unavoidable.


But that talent wouldn't be so useful if you had the luck to be born female and were young and happened to be interested in ... say... the military contractor arena or politics. In that scenario EQ would probably get you further than some with a higher IQ. A physician with a crummy bedside manner perhaps would be more successful as a brain surgeon than as an OB/GYN, etc.

If a person's IQ is pretty stable, do you think that may also be true of a person's EQ? There's probably a book in there somewhere too wink I'm honestly curious about the thoughts others might have about it though.
Posted By: La Texican Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 09:42 PM
ITA, I totes agree!  But what I mean is that when I asked my dad about teaching my kids good manners he said, "good manners is about not making people in the room uncomfortable".  Good manners is whatever doesn't make the people around you uncomfortable.  We were actually talking about table manners at the time though.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Meercat
But that talent wouldn't be so useful if you had the luck to be born female and were young and happened to be interested in ... say... the military contractor arena or politics. In that scenario EQ would probably get you further than some with a higher IQ. A physician with a crummy bedside manner perhaps would be more successful as a brain surgeon than as an OB/GYN, etc.

It also might help if I had some interest in actually practicing law.

Sadly, eventually you have to stop going to school and actually pay back your loans.
Posted By: fwtxmom Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 09:55 PM
This is such a fascinating thread. On the topic of IQ and EQ, my EG/ADHD/dysgraphic DS11 has struggled socially. He has been unable to perceive how some of his behaviors are off-putting and unable to read his peers' social cues which led to being bullied. We were referred by his tester to a very gifted child psych who assured me that EQ can be taught to a certain extent. His counseling with her was mainly social coaching and she used Mel Levine's "Jarvis Clutch Social Spy" as his assigned reading. It is all about being yourself while finding a more comfortable social fit. It is not a miracle cure but it helped him tremendously. Based on my experience EQ can be increased in bright kids if they are "taught" how to do it.
Posted By: Wren Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 10:37 PM
Maybe team sports is critical. Being part of the team. Everyone has a role. I never liked team sports, though played for the school soccer team in 7th and 8th grade. I liked individual sports and in the workplace I am a donkey's butt.
Posted By: JonLaw Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/16/12 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Wren
Maybe team sports is critical. Being part of the team. Everyone has a role. I never liked team sports, though played for the school soccer team in 7th and 8th grade. I liked individual sports and in the workplace I am a donkey's butt.

Maybe team sports + understanding of social cues + understanding of non-verbal communication.

Posted By: JLC01 Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/17/12 10:29 PM
Per my professor in college- the strongest union in the US is the teacher's union. They are there to advocate for the best benefits they can possibly get for their members. This is a fact- not politics. This includes working less hours for more pay and benefits as well as many other goals the union has for its members.
Posted By: JLC01 Re: A sad realization last week.... - 03/17/12 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Wren
I don't think there has been a "Good Old Boy's" network for a long time. The last I remember, that had any strength, was the Atlanta boys from NAPA auto parts and they were getting kind of old in the 80s. And they were limited to auto parts aftermarket.

You would think good social and political skills would get you a CEO spot, but look at that idiot they had in charge of BP when the spill happened. He came up the geology route, a good science kid.

Even that guy who wrote Outliers, admitted, that you can do the work, but you still need opportunity. Creating the opportunity is the skill for success. Maybe there is a book there....


I think we do still have a good ole boy network. I worked for a very large international insurance company. I found that male college grads were concentrated in claims areas that paid more and females with equivalent education were placed in units of business that paid about 5-20% less. The worst part was that there were different work loads for the groups and the women ended up working 3-18 hours of overtime to complete the horrendous work load while the groups consisting primarily of men were given much lighter work loads and put in 40 hrs/ week. Break this down into the hourly rate of pay and you have a good old boys network....
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