I'm curious as to whether anyone thinks that a child can be EG/PG and function in a normal classroom without any acceleration. To me, that high LOG is synonymous with accleration, be it whole grade or subject. I understand how enrichment, going horizontal, is supposed to work, but it seems to me that one of the main characteristics of exceptional intellect is the rapid pace at which new skills can be learned and new information processed. Does anyone have a EG/PG child that is able to learn horizontally and stay within the limits of the grade curriculum?

Can they function? My guess is sometimes yes, mostly no.

However, I don't think most PG/EG children would be able to achieve the level of learning they are capable of, even with a dedicated teacher.

I believe my PG child has one of the best school situations available. She is in a school for the highly gifted. They have highly educated and trained teachers. They have specialists in many of their subjects, etc. etc. etc.

However, even there some children have a need to move faster. My dd is moved up 2 grades in math. There is a great difference between HG, EG and PG. Combine that with the fact that not only are there differenct LOG but different gifts as well and it makes for a complex picture.

We have children who are PG in music, art, math, reading/writing but are only HG in other areas. Even in her classroom (full of highly gifted children) their needs are vastly different from each other.

I can't see how a regular classroom can be a place where a PG child can get all he/she needs to thrive. At the very best I think they are getting enough (when they are lucky) not to starve.

There are many great resources that can be used to expand the depth and breadth of elementary school mathematics. I'm not totally convinced that depth and breadth removes the pace issue, but I think these types of alternative should be explored before rushing into higher levels of math. I believe using an online program like ALEKS along with the following problem solving enrichment programs gives a nice balance of pace, depth and breadth.

Art of Problem Solving - has a variety of resources that can be used to enrich elementary school math for HG/PG students.
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/

Ed Zaccaro - I went to an Ed Zaccaro session at the TAGT conference this year. He has terrific resources for expanding problem solving for highly gifted elementary math students.
http://www.challengemath.com/

Math competitions - can provide some stimulating problem solving exercises and opportunity to work with like-minded students
Mathematical Olympiads for Elementary and Middle Schools (MOEMS)
Math Kangaroo Competition - grades 2 through 12
Online Math League, part of AcademicLeagues.com

I am in the process of working with the school to develop this type of a plan for my dd. I am making progress but we are not there yet.

Summer

I think especially in math, you probably have to go up eventually. We've tried to go "deeper, not faster," but it's not easy to do with even one child. Trying to differentiate for a child this GT is very, very hard in a regular classroom. Even grouping is unlikely to help much, since fininding even one of these kids in a class is rare; finding two is statistically improbable.

I think at least differentiation would be necessary, and frankly, I don't think most teachers are that dedicated to differentiation that they'd be willing to do what it would take. There are some fabulous teachers who are good at differentiation and use it consistently, but they are not to be found in every class...or even more than a few classrooms...

And I guess I'd argue that good differentiation is going to result in a form of acceleration. Even if the child is physically in a same-age classroom, they're being taught as if they were in a higher-level classroom. If it's working, they're going to advance each year, getting further and further ahead of their agemates.

(Of course, this sort of consistency in differentiation over so many years is rare in the extreme! Usually a kid is lucky to get one good year of differentiation. Two in a row is practically a miracle, from what I've seen!)

So does that mean I vote a wimpy "no"? I think it might.

Dottie,

The problem I am facing with dd (a problem I would guess your ds is also facing) is that just because the kids in their new class are older, doesn't mean they are better at math. The new class doesn't move any faster than the previous one did.

In a year or so, my dd will be able to join the math team. I am hoping this is where she will finally meet some true peers in her biggest gift (math). Until then, I will have to continue to do enrichment out of school.

I agree with you on this Kriston. That is why I try to provide the differentiation for the teacher as much as possible. Differentiation made easy.

Summer

Oh, and while I think a verbal kid can have an easier time than a mathy kid, since even easy books still contain stories and let a child imagine, I don't think keeping a reader at a lower level of books than s/he can read is going to work for long either. If the child is denied access to the "big kid books" in the library (as mine was), it does "starve" the child, as bianca so aptly put it.

Again, I think there's got to at least be some differentation, and that's the worst option available as far as I'm concerned.

Hmmm. Why do you think this? I'd like to hear more about your thought process here.

I ask because I'm wrestling with this as I HS my child, and though I started there--ala "deeper, not faster"--I've sort of come to the conclusion that it's not really possible to go much deeper until the child gets past arithmetic.

You can do more thought-provoking, logic-based problems (as in Math Kangaroo and some of the more challenging Singapore Math workbooks) and those are fine. But until you get past arithmetic, that's all just a gussied-up version of 2+2, from what I've seen. My DS still got bored with it and wanted to move faster.

<shrug>

Just wondering if you know something I don't know. (It wouldn't be a surprise if you did!)

Maybe, though Math Kangaroo starts in 1st grade...

I was writing this when the phone rang, and now I'm late to the party.

This is exactly what we're struggling with - and I was up half the night worrying about it. DS7 is in a regular public school second grade. He says math takes him 10 seconds (and based on the homework, I don't think it's an exageration -- this week he was supposed to color and name the shapes, triangle, diamond, etc. I think he did that in kindergarten in his old school, and I don't think they've even looked at a number greater than 100). They allow differentiation, but only after he has done the required work. And it's not like DS is whipping through the required work either - he doesn't like it and delays. The teachers told us he wants them near when he's working - but he doesn't need their help. He just wants to tell them whatever new science theory he's thinking about while he whips off his spelling or math assignment.

And I have no idea what our options are. I just came back from a visit to a small private school which is actually listed on Hoagies. It's nice that they have a problem of the week that all the children work on (grades k-8) and have all sorts of projects that would interest DS. But when I asked if he placed out of math, for example, could he go right to the extra problems and enrichment activities, the answer was no, he still has to do the work.

So, in answer to your question, CFK, I don't know. I think DS can coast and sit there and do nothing for a year and accept the frustration and boredom, and basically check out. But what happens next year, and the next? And personally, I lose sleep over the fact that I make him go school all over again when he gets home (with EPGY and CTY, although not that often, as it turns out) because I am convinced he is learning nothing new academically in math or science this year. (To be fair, his writing and willingness to go to school have improved tremendously, and those were our goals for the year, but do I just accept that and let the rest slide?) This year has addressed the LD E of the 2E exclusively, and I don't think it's enough.

So I am very interested in hearing the responses, as I have no idea what to do. And next year, if we continue with the distance learning math, he'll be at least a grade ahead of his third grade class. I don't want to hothouse him (I used to love to do just the enrichment stuff he loved - like museums, the library and books), but feel I have no choice. If he's not continually challenged, he'll feel he can't do it when faced with a challenge. (We've had a lot of I can't do this, it's too hard, ... Oh, that was easy!)

So I'm intrigued by your response, Texas Summer. That may be the way to go. Is Aleks more in depth at grade level than EPGY or CTY? Would that be enrichment as opposed to CTY? It would certainly make things easier for DS if he did not need the accommodations they won't provide...

Kriston,

In a way, I think PG verbal kids have it even harder than children that are PG in math.

Questions,

Have you tried to have his school substitute their math with the CTY/EPGY math? I believe it is possible. Then maybe he can use that hour to do extra projects?

Thanks, Bianca - I went to edit the last post and deleted it by accident. That is what I'm going to try. They won't do it on their own, but because he has an IEP, I might be able to get him distance learning computer time to deal with his in class frustration (DS is very unhappy with the distraction and daily discipline and lectures directed to a few disruptive children in his class. His teachers told us he is distracted by what's going on in the classroom and he complains bitterly about the same thing, saying he can't hear himself think. We're exploring the distance learning as an accommodation so that he has some "quiet time" where he won't notice as much what's going on around him and therefore, will have a respite from his discomfort in the classroom.)

Interesting. Why do you think that?

I think the schools tend to do more for HG+ mathy kids, tend to be more willing to grade-skip and/or subject accelerate them, etc. But if we're talking about keeping the child in the age-group instead of grade skipping or subject accelerating, then I think the PG verbal kids probably "starve" less than the PG math kids. It's easier to read a book alone after school than it is to teach yourself math alone after school.

Heck, I was a GT verbal kid, and I remember being bored in class and reading the teacher's guide that was on her desk before she shooed me away. She gave me harder work after that, as you can imagine...But there was something at my reading level in the room. There wasn't anything for my mathy GT friend to do but be bored!

Kriston,
My intention was not to imply that we should hold kids back. That is why we are using ALEKS. I am just suggesting spending more time on problem solving rather than rushing into algebra (although many algebraic concepts are taught prior to formally teaching algebra).

There are two components to mathematics. The first is learning the language of math, things like arithmetic and the mechanics of higher level math. I call these things "tools." The second is problem solving. I don't think I truly understood problem solving until I got to college and began working on a degree in engineering.

Historically in America our math curriculum has focused on learning the "tools" of math. There was not enough focus on the application of the tools and understanding the system behind the operations. For example a lot of emphasis is put on having kids learn their math facts while less is put on having them understand the foundations of the operations. Many students know that 3x4 = 12 but do not understand that concept of multiplication. As a result we have fallen behind other countries like China.

Good applications of problem solving involve having a student decide what tools to use. Often times there are several different tools that can be used to solve a problem. For instance when my dd was in 1st grade she often used multiplication to solve the problems that her classmates solved using addition. Both solutions were correct, my dd just had more tools available from which to choose.

Also many hands-on activities used in the elementary school can be applied at a higher level. I observed my dd's math class last week. The class was working on basic fraction concepts (which my dd had already mastered). My dd decided to use her manipulatives to work on improper fractions and mixed numbers.

I highly recommend getting one of Ed Zaccaro's books. He really helped me see the value in higher level problem solving for elementary students. Our district uses his materials for 3rd-5th grade advanced math students.

I am just beginning my research into the math competitions. I am working with my dd's GT specialist on starting an afterschool math club next year. I think we are going to use Math Olympiad but I still need to do some research.

I also like to see an interdisciplinary approach applied to teaching math. Showing math in the context of the world. If your child likes science there is so much math application available. I teach a Zome geometry class at our local PG co-op. I try to bring science, engineering, history, art, etc. into the lessons.

Summer

I think that HG verbal kids probably do ok. As you said, there is always something at their level to read in the classroom, library, or home. However, a PG gifted verbal kid who is no longer satisfied with appropriate level reading material but that perhaps would like to create some of his/her own (writing a book, poem etc. may have a hard time getting a teacher to teach him/her the tools they need to do so. I just think there is a clearer path for math than there is for literature.

Hmmm. This looks a lot like the regular Singapore Workbooks, not even the hard stuff. The 3rd grade has word problems, patterns...some combo problems that would be a bit more thought-provoking, but I guess I don't think that asking the child to set up the problem (instead of saying "here's the problem: 10+25= ?) really constitutes deeper.

Kangaroo Math is harder, I think. But I'm still not sure I think even that's really deeper. Does harder = deeper? Or is there more to it than that?

ALEKS is much less expensive than EPGY or CTY. I have heard good things about EPGY and CTY but have not ever seriously considered them because of the price. ALEKS teaches what I call the tools of math. It allows a students to go at his/her own pace. They offer a free trial if you want to give it a try. The Ed Zacarro books offer the problem solving depth. I think the best bang for your buck is ALEKS in conjunction with an appropriate Ed Zacarro workbook.

Oh, of course! I didn't mean to insinuate that you want to hold the kids back! I think this is a common debate in GT ed, and I know it's one I'm having with myself. I don't think either of us is talking about holding them back. It's a philopsophical debate about approach, that's all.


Hmmm. Maybe this is the root of my problem: I think my DS6 has a pretty good grasp of the problem solving skills even though he doesn't yet have all the "tools." If he's backwards from a typical American schoolchild, then my perception of this discussion may be skewed. This is helpful...



We've mostly been pretty happy with Singapore Math and "Murderous Maths," a new addition to our curriculum from British Scholastic books. Since problem-solving is DS6's strength, I'm not sure we need more of this. But I'll certainly look at it. It never hurts to look.

Thanks for your response. It helped me.

Hey Kriston - trying to remember here, but is your son visual-spatial? I read this in a book I got last weekend that I thought was very applicable to me as visual spatial and probably DS too ...

".. They (visual spatial kids) may learn long division a year or two later than other children the same age, but often master high level algebraic concepts before that" (From Creative Homeschooling for Smart Families Lisa Rivero).

I wonder if it's hard to visualize in your head WHY long division works? I remember needing to understand why this worked, and it took me a while to figure it out (no one certainly told you why in my experience, you were just supposed to jump through the hoops to get problems done).

Murdurous Math sounds quite fun and boy friendly! We'll have to check that out.

I think HG+ kids definitely need "something" for their mental and emotional health or their will be ramifications. I'm still traumatized from my elementary school experience.

I agree with posts. One of our daughter's classmates at an all gifted charter school... spells words we can't. they have not skipped him but at this school he goes to math class 2 grade levels up. like the other posts, i agree that math is the hardest to deal with in a non-gifted classroom that uses repetition to teach. Reading is so easy to deal with... kids are reading froggy but here is harry potter for you, etc.

The specialist that counseled us advised of us of a variety of horizontal activities... which basically aren't just to make her well rounded but distract her so she doesn't pick up so much school related knowledge or skipping may become a habit/habitual need.

I think the other aspect is social. Our daughter falls more as highly gifted (under 160) than PG but she doesn't have much in common with her same aged neighborhood friends. The one time was almost painful to me as the little girl came over and the things she was interested in doing appealed to the hg 4 year old not her sister who the playmate came to see.

We do have the advantage of girls so sports isn't a concern... dating someday will be :-) be then we can use "you are younger" instead of the equally true - your parents are too strict.

I don't know but I don't see how based on where we are how it can be avoided at PG. Now, we are still so little so who knows... but even with skipping and being in all gt class we are still getting "special" assignments from school, and next year we'll probably skip out of grade level for math. And again, we're only in the hg category (assuming we didn't ceiling out and I therefore have no idea what I'm talking about ;-).

I am ordering IAS - no library in system has it. But, I'm on the list for Ruf's book thanks.

Since my kid is one of the oldest here, let me speak from experience and totally screwed perspective:-)
No matter how much you grade skip/accelerate in math, they are still going to top the class if they are PG. My DS was put into Algebra in 5th grade, a class generally reserved for 8/9 graders. He was still the top student. His homework was hell, but he still managed to be the best in that class. This year he is in Algebra II as a 12 year old(late b-day), and the class tempo is so slow, that he is working ahead in the book, on his own. He scored 33 in ACT, his lowest score being Math, in which he is accelerated. He is not accelerated in any other subject.
My point - regular school is not an option for PG kids, whether accelerated or not. I do not know what options there are, that I might not be aware of, but at this point I am sure that my son would be accomodated best having some subjects taught one on one with a tutor.

An excellent question, kimck...which I don't know the answer to. When DS6 took the SB5 (granted, on a really bad day...), he looked verbal; on the WISC, he looked visual-spatial. His verbal achievement scores were higher than his math, but then I hadn't been enriching him in math as I was in reading at the time. <shrug> Yet another instance when I'm clueless about my child!

I would say he has some qualities of VS (puzzles, mazes, "sees" the answer, etc.), but that he's also verbal enough that he's probably a fairly balanced learner overall. I'm trying to approach math more visually than I might naturally do so, just to cover my bases. He's a natural at geometry, patterns and those sorts of heavily visual math subjects.

I <heart> Lisa Rivero! Next to Deborah Ruf, she's been the most influential writer for my trek down this GT path. (Though the questions she offered to distinguish what sort of learner you have on your hands didn't help me.)

Anyway, I do think you and she might be on to something there...

BTW, here's the link to "Murderous Maths": http://www.murderousmaths.co.uk/

It is a very verbal approach to math, but it's great fun, with plenty of gruesome pictures. There are lots of subjects to choose from, dealing with everything from basic arithmetic to algebra and geometry to off-beat subjects like codes. I use it for days (like today) when DS6 just doesn't seem to feel much like doing problems AGAIN. It's a good change of pace, and is very much about the "why" of math, not just the how.

The "Horrible Histories" are great, too.

Harumph! Sports very well might matter to a girl!

I lettered in two sports in high school and played sports my whole life. Maybe sports won't matter to your particular girls, or maybe they just don't yet, but I'd be very wary of making that particular assumption based solely on gender.

Interesting! We haven't had a full assessement of DS. He hit the ceiling on part of the NNAT which is heavily favors visual spatial kids, and was close the ceiling on the 2nd half. But now he is surprising us with verbal ability. He is also puzzling!

But yet, I'm still too cheap to go see Deborah Ruf who is right down the road. Maybe one of these days. I'm keeping my eyes open for a more reasonable assessment/testing too. Or maybe we'll wait and just do a test like the EXPLORE and see how we fare there.

This is one of the reasons I have not subject accelerated my dd. At the elementary level a grade skip does not gain you much for all the inconvenience (IMO). I am trying to hold out a couple more years until 6th grade when my dd can take algebra without commuting between schools.

Meh. I would have been at a disadvantage in sports if I were younger than everyone else, I think, just as a boy would be. Maybe the puberty thing isn't as big an issue for a girl, but you still have height issues and coordination issues. Not to mention eligibility issues.

I just don't think you can completely dismiss sports as a consideration simply because of gender. That sounds like a highly loaded sexist statement to me that I couldn't let go past without comment, lest my feminism membership (as in "card-carrying feminist") be revoked!

Boy, the posts are flying fast today! I keep thinking I don't need to quote the person I'm responding to because I'll be the next post in line, and then 3 or 4 more are between us.

So fun!

Long ago, I asked this question on this very forum: is my child Verbal or VS? I think I've decided that he's just really, really smart, so he can work either way, depending on the context.

To hear him, you'd swear he's verbal. His reading is much more advanced than his math skills. Yet his approach to things is often VS. So he seems to be both. Maybe yours is similar?

I think with these ridiculously smart kids, they're frequently just "fluent in all languages" when it comes to learning!

I thought my dd was a verbal kid until she took the SB. Her lowest score was verbal and she hit the ceiling on the VS subtest.

Kriston, I couldn't help but smile at your card-carrying feminist comment. I loved sports, too (varsity letters through high school and college in four different sports - that shows my age, LOL, they don't allow that anymore..). Oh, and if it hasn't been mentioned earlier, I'm the mom, not the dad.

Re: my earlier posts, DS complained succinctly on the way home today about his new school compared to his old. At the old school:

1. "The classroom was quiet."

2. "They didn't teach me things I already know."

Finally, Texas Summer, thanks for the info. I signed him up and paid for CTY and EPGY before I knew about Aleks. And frankly, the move from private to public school made those courses seem like a bargain. But they are expensive. Good to know there are other options, and that there's no problem using what we're using. Thanks for the reassurance.

DS's reading skills are a lot higher than his math skills at this point too, but before kindergarten it was totally backwards. And again - it might be because we emphasized math and played a lot of number games before kindy because that's our background. We read to him alot (well above age level) but we didn't emphasize alphabet or phonics games at all. He knew it all before kindergarten - but I'm not sure how! And I do think he has an easier time getting something closer to his level in the classroom right now in reading. And he sounds verbally advanced sometimes. He totally masks for his age mates.

It just really messes with the GT denial! I had gotten to "it's ok - he's a math geek like his parents.". And now he throws in the verbal angle. Arg!

Sorry, Questions! I meant to get back to your earlier posts (geez, the first was 3 pages ago!). But I got distracted by...everything else! I love days like that on the forum! Especially when my kids are happily occupying themselves!



Anyway, I'm sorry it's not going well. You say you have no idea what your options are. Are you thinking about staying in the school or are you sold on finding some option outside the current school he's in?

What would your ideal situation look like? I always think it helps to start there and move to the option that looks the most like what you idealize. If you don't know what you want, you certainly won't get it, right?

LOL! It can't ever be easy, can it? They're forever throwing us curve balls to keep us on our toes.

(And yes, even the girls throw 'em! <grin> Okay, I'll behave now!)

Yes, the posts are flying, I can't keep up!

"Oh, and if it hasn't been mentioned earlier, I'm the mom, not the dad."-
Hee Hee Hee!
Questions, would you like to join our "We are women who think like men club"?
Kriston and I are co-chairs!
Anyone else!


Incog

<guffaw!>

I'm smiling... Hey, I've even said publicly that it's thanks to my two brothers that I am who I am today.

There's a reason you and 'Neato are two of my bestest buddies here, Questions. We're all a little off-kilter from the rest of the world, but apparently in very much the same way.

True peers! I just had to be 39 and online to find them! :p

Better late than never!!!
I

A little off-kilter? Moi? LOL!

By the way, this wouldn't hold up in court or anything, but I've heard the more intelligent the person, the more androgynous.

And we've officially hijacked this thread!

I like to see EG and PG accelerated, but I think it's a band-aid that doesn't last long. I believe that IQ number weighs heavily on processing speed and memory. The more you give them, the higher you set the bar, the faster they catch up.

Our school has excellent gifted programming options. However, they have had to create a mini-magnet like program for DD8 and 3 others in her second grade class.

I highly appreciate their efforts, it's outstanding and she enjoys school much more now. Is it fully satisfying her educational needs now? No. Would skipping one grade solve the problem for her? H@#$ no. But it's not realistic for her to have one on one tutor-like teaching for her. Maybe in the future. For now things are okay. I am constantly on the look out for the program that "fits". Not sure it's out there except for homeschooling.

Incog

K-Cab: You're in. I'll private message you as to where to send the dues to me, uh, I mean, the club.

I

ROFL!

Incog (or "neato) I've also heard that too. I read a book once about gifted kids that said girls who like to play with "boy" toys, like Legos, building things, etc. are usually more intelligent than girls who only play with "girlie" toys. My sister had a higher IQ than I did and her FAVORITE toy growing up was Legos. In fact she still has her entire collection that she will not let her kids even touch - LOL!!!

Anyway, don't know if that is true or not (and this is not to say "girlie" girls can't be highly gifted too) but I did think your comment was interesting.

k-cab I think you need to be somewhat wary of where those dues are going......

EandC

Agreed. It's why Ruf says any level 4 or above kid could probably graduate from college by 12 or whatever. It's also what gives ME nightmares and makes me shudder to think about it...

I just feel SOOOOO unprepared for this wild ride! I was supposed to have a nice, simple, MG kid--maybe the low end of HG--who would fit in and get straight As and be involved in lots of extracurriculars and be NORMAL! (You know, like me!!! <grin>) But I didn't sign up for this!

Denial, denial, denial...

EandC,

Both you and your sister can be in the club. Just make sure you send in the dues.



I

Kriston, you are cracking me up!

I

Ok incog - we'll send them right in. Make the check out to you right????

Yes, that's I-N-C-O-G-N-E-A-T-O.

I'll make sure the money gets to the right place.

Oh man. I actually never thought of the sports thing that way. I just looked at it more as boy sports age=strength and girls agility. Great (insert sarcasm). Well, a bridge to jump off later. #1 will probably always head for more individual sports - just with her personality but #2 is more like me and I played team sports thru college...

Sorry about the getting the score issue wrong... that's what you get for letting baby posters on or posters with babies :-) But question, I shouldn't have to worry about pg issues if we aren't ruf 5?

" I shouldn't have to worry about pg issues if we aren't ruf 5? "

I wouldn't go that far. I worry about PG issues and DD is some 4 some 5. Her FSIQ score on the WISCIV is 148 and Davidson considers that number on that test as PG.

Hope this helps

Incog

Although, I don't like to pin everything on one number, of course.

Glad we've actually got something for YOU Dottie!

That's cool!

I

Not necessarily. kickball, I think your GT denial is about as strong as mine...so you're in big trouble, I'm afraid.

Level 4s and 5s often tend to cross back and forth. I would say that most of the time my DS6 is a level 4, but he is a clear level 5 on the things he loves. Which makes sense, right? We all do more and better in the areas of our specific interest.

So I'd say he's a level 4, but he's PG. IQ and achievement test scores confirm it. He's a solid DYS candidate. But he's not level 5 most of the time.

Sorry, kickball, commence worrying!

I think the harder question is the borderline 3/4s. I think 4s tend to be PGish, and I worry more about the 3/4s being PGs who just aren't testing well or something.

Though I would have been in *heaven* to have had like 12 majors in college and have just stayed there for years and years! English and Physics and Art History and Econ...

True, my parents and their bank account would have been less enamoured of the plan, but hey, you can't please everyone all the time, KWIM?

And we circle back to meeting up in Europe in a few years and letting our kids go to college on time.

What a party it would be!

I too know a level 5, and whoaaa, hard to explain. Her mom thinks she is crazy. Pretty neat little kid.

I

I gotta run too. Have a nice night all.

Same time, same channel next week (or day) ?!?!?!

I

You know me--I'm always here! Perhaps I need to get a life...

ROFLOL!!!!! See Dottie, it all becomes clear......

Incog - the check's in the mail!!!!

Kriston - I love that you're here all the time. You are always making me laugh!!!

<3

(That's a heart, BTW, EandCMom. I always think it looks like someone mooning everyone...which might work, too, in this instance, now that I think of it, but I did intend it to be a heart!)

Sorry, Dottie, but that just sounds like GT denial to me. See, that's exactly what I'd say about your DS right now--sounds so far beyond mine, beyond my imagination, etc.

Denial, denial, denial!

I agree Dottie! Let go of that denial already!

LOL!

The data thing had me laughing about as hard as the Stephen Hawking thing!

ROFL! I'm glad your DS's self esteem isn't suffering due to your denial or lack of data!

I do know level 5 kids and adults. DS is a level 4, I believe. But 5's are different. DS could easily handle college at 12, but the 5's seem to need college by 12- just can't be happy if their brain isn't being fed at that level. I have a relative who graduated college at 18 or so. He went on to get Multiple advanced degrees in unrelated subjects and is still respected in multiple fields and heading important research projects into his 80's. His brain is just flying all the time, even when just planning dinner or walking around the neighborhood, you can tell he's on a different level.

I think I have produced level 5.
Learning how to adjust:-)
If only I had known as much as I do now when he was 2 years old and running around the coffee table - and everybody in the room thinking he was CRAZY!
His brain is flying! Last night he stayed up until midnight to test his science project in our cold, unfinished basement. He is still only 12 years old!
As I write this words he is at the scout meeting, trying to convince his fellow troop members to attend next week city council meeting where he is going to speak about the dog park issue.
HELP!!! Whoa all the way here. Even school does see it now. I should make another thread about science projects this child is able to produce. Last year he had all the judging engineers at his display, yet they did not believe him the project was of his making!

You know, Ania, when you mentioned his ACT score, I was sort of wondering if maybe he was a 5!!! I think Ruf says that often the difference between levels is intesity (rather than just ability) and I think your guy is way more intense than mine. Hold on; I think it's going to be quite a ride.

Honestly, I am not looking forwad to it!
I am old enough and have been through enough to know what it means!
And talking about levels of intensity! All my friends have always commented how intense I was. But I can't compare with DS.
Two math clubs, violin, piano, scouts, vice-president of SB, NJHS, tutoring,fencing,playing in church every Sunday,religion classes,AoPS classes,skiing and snowboarding every weekend, foreign language. I myself do not have time for this and his energy is driving me CRAZY!!!
I have made a promise to myself that we are done with testing. He pretty much tops the celing in everything. We have not appliled to DYS, as I can't see this changing anything.He has been watching movies in Spanish last week, his THIRD language at 12.
I accomodate all of this, but for how much longer?

Yeah, that sure sounds like the 5's I know.

I know that 5's are rare even in DYS, but there certainly are some and I bet you'd know another 5 as soon as you saw him/her. It might be really cool to actually meet another family with similar issues. And nice for your son, too. I once had a chance to introduce two 5's to each other--it was like magic, instant chemistry. One 5 friend said that it wasn't until grad school that she met another person who thought like her and that was when she first started to like herself. Up until that point she felt like she was just "too" different. Seems like DYS might be your best bet for making those kinds of connections.

I guess the other DYS benefit is help in figuring out how you are going to accomodate his needs--it sounds like sometime soon it might be time for a change of stategy.

The five I know is definately not crazy. Her mom half kiddingly says she is. I won't give details because she is not my child and not my details to share. But, she is a great little girl who imo fits the five profile. It's very hard to parent her and when I feel overwhelmed, I think of her mom. She is the only one I know IRL who has a bigger parenting challenge in the realm of GT than I do. IRL, I mean. I'm glad to have found all of you and feel we are all in the same boat.

Incog

Ania,

Beautiful scores for Ghost! I can't believe all the stuff he's doing (can't believe you're surviving taking him to all those activities!)

Just a couple things to consider about DYS--they have counselors who really help think things out, advise, bring an issue/question to committee & then tell you their suggestions. I've found this very helpful. Their recommendations are also influential in negotiating with schools.

There is an annual gathering with high powered presenters for kids' topics and for parents'. The kids get to explore interesting out of the box things AND have lots of fun. These gatherings are free, though flight & hotel are out of pocket (financial aid is available!). I've never been to one, but I'm determined to go next summer (2009). I want to meet the other parents on this board and the experts and counselors. DS9 wants to meet kids he's seen in profiles on the YS boards and kids like him.

There are colloquia available to YS, proctored by professionals/experts. DS9 signed up for one, and it was really great--about meteorology & extreme weather. BUT, he's not motivated to work at it, so he didn't do the readings and slacked off on the dialog. Other kids were completely engaged, had asked questions they'd wanted to know--it was very interactive. They have many topics, and each YS can sign up for 2 colloquia every 6 months.

Also, the YS program now offers an Ambassador program with community service projects--by application. This seems really amazing, for service oriented or project-based (Ghost!) kids.

Finally, mentorship connections can be facilitated through YS. Ghost is at the age, self-motivation, etc. that such a situation might be beneficial to take his inquiries to another level. Some of these go on to become Davidson Fellows (scholarships of $10K-$50K). I expect to read about Ghost being a Davidson Fellow in the next couple years for some amazing math or science study. Check it out.

I think the original question here was whether PG kids can survive in regular classroom. I believe they can survive, but it would be unfortunate--a waste. I do not believe they will be happy with this and their work habits will flatline. Skipping one or more grades and being in a regular classroom would be an improved scenario, though the truth is nothing will be quite right.

I'm still in awe of you who homeschool. I don't think I'd ever be able to relax, thinking I'm fully responsible and that I'm failing failing failing. To be the only voice...maybe I lack confidence in being that voice. I also think my kids seem to tune out that particular voice--how could it be effective? I admire those who do it and succeed, because it's very rare to find a really gifted teacher, and that's what's needed for a PG kid (more likely to be found in the parents of the kids).

Nah, don't be in awe. I just figure I can't do any worse than teaching him nothing, which is what he was learning in school! Nowhere to go but up!



Plus HSing GT kids is about as easy as falling off a log most of the time. They're learning machines! It's mostly about finding opportunities and materials, not so much about traditional teaching. Even as they get older, it becomes about finding experts and mentors and classes, not so much about teaching.

"I'm still in awe of you who homeschool. I don't think I'd ever be able to relax, thinking I'm fully responsible and that I'm failing failing failing."

Cym, say you won't homeschool because you work, your child doesn't want to, they are getting great personal and social benefits at school,,even that it's not a good fit for your family.

But please, don't say it is because you would be afraid to fail at it. That would be unlikely, if not impossible.
I felt that way and realized I was afraid of taking on that responsibility and failing. After I spent some time looking into it and thinking about it, I realized I was letting my kids down by pushing off the responsibility on the school so I could blame them, not myself if things didn't work out.
I'm so NOT saying that is what you are doing.
But, this caused me to take a close hard look at what is going on in school and what the options are.
I did go in and talk to teacher/principal and they have changed the classroom environment for DD8.
I haven't gotten to that far for DD5, yet. But if it doesn't work out for her, I will homeschool.
Because I want to do it.
Because she wants to do it.
And, I'm not afraid to do it.
Just reading everyone's posts it's so clear we are all caring intelligent parents that would be able to homeschool if the need and desire are there.

And Ditto what Kriston said; exactly.

Incog

You're probably right--I love the way you put it.

Wow! I thought I would NEVER reach the end of this thread! All very interesting thoughts... I am sorry that I don't have anything much to add to the discussion. I think a PG kid in a regular classroom with no accommodations would have to tune out and spend a good portion of the day in his or her own head just to get through the day.

Wow, 'Neato! <applause> That was downright eloquent!

No.

I usually paid attention for a minute during the start of the lecture until I knew I already knew it then went back to my daydreaming or reading. The usual solution was for me to be left alone with my books as long as I did the tests with the rest of the class. The only time I really enjoyed school when younger was when I was accelerated 2+ grades and even then I was the top performer in class.

Now that I am older, I see what a tremendous waste it was. But we did not know back then what we know now.

I agree.

In the 2d grade, I did reading with the 6th graders and read all the books pretty quickly and then sat in class reading library books.

In the late 70s, I moved during 7th grade into a school district that tested me when I arrived. They tested me twice. I started the day in PE in Middle school then walked over to the HS for Algebra, Chem, Phsysics, and English with the HS kids. I recall being a terribly shy at first, but once the class started - I felt right at home - totally focused. But even then, I recall that by the 2d week I had read all the textbooks from cover to cover and was getting bored. I started taking library books with me to read - but we moved yet again.

Smart kids need to be challenged or they will not develop to their full potential - developing the capacity for hard work, staying engaged even when bored - the boredom not caused by the subject matter, learning how to advance one's viewpoint, dealing with difficult people - these are learned traits. When a bright kid disengages because its what they have to do to stay sane, then they will live in their own world, making it harder to learn these traits.

I am not so sure.

GT kids can go get books from the library. Look things up. We are steeped in language. Its very accessible.

GT math kids may not be able to process higher math books due to language issues. The math roadmap is not obvious to the uninitiated and the material is vanishingly small in volume compared to most other material.

Most math textbooks outside of upper division college today have a very high noise/signal ratio. I don't think they are appropriate for GT kids. I hated them.

And doing math problems is a much different process from reading a book.

IMHO, a condensed approach stressing Logic and Real Analysis which picks up Geometry, Algebra, Number Theory, Discrete Math, and Calculus along the way might be more appropriate for GT kids who are already very good at arithemetic and who can think conceptually. You could also briefly touch upon other math and non-math advanced subjects along the way.

OH, I so agree. That is why they are so BIG. No wonder even teachers get lost in the material needed to be covered.

I didn't go back and re-read this whole thread, but I think at the time (5 months ago!) I was arguing that *schools* tend to be more willing to ID math-talented kids than language-GT kids and to accomodate them. Maybe insufficiently, but at least with something.

At our local schools, a weekly GT pull-out begins at 4th grade in math only. Language-talented kids get nothing until 6th grade. By 6th grade, the math pull-out has become daily math class for GT kids. It's only weekly for language arts, even in 6th grade.

Is that enough for HG+ math-GT kids? Not hardly! But it's still a heck of a lot more than the school does for the HG+ language-GT kids.

Kriston, I agree with you about the math vs. language arts acceleration. In math, there is a logical succession and it is easier to accelerate. One of the arguments again LA acceleration from our old school was that the books read may not be appropriate material as DD is very sensitive and "immature" for the material. One of them discussed holocaust for example and I agree that a sensitive child may not handle the material well. Schools usually don't have a way to accelerate a LA gifted child.

In our new school DD9 will be with other GT kids and they will accelerate to either 6th or 7th grade LA next year. She will be going to 5th this fall. Since it is a group of younger (9-10 yo) kids, they will take the subject matter into account.

I disagree. Coming from my perspective it was different. I think my child intimidated his teacher in math, as it happened he was able to point out a mistake in the 4th grade math text (it was an unusual circumstance, but it did have an enormous effect). Math acceleration was not possible as the teacher did not feel secure enough, I guess. LA acceleration was offered and it included much more complex weekly readings to be analyzed.
To my dismay those readings consisted of abridged texts and not only my child but myself had trouble getting to the bottom of the problem.
I guess it all really depends on the teacher. But I would make an assumption that most elementary grade teachers feel much more secure in LA than they do in Math.
Having said that I agree that the path in math is much more clear. But is it really the one we should follow with GT kids?

Good point, Ania.

To tell you the truth, I really think both are crummily managed overall, though with pockets of good work some places with some teachers.

What we're doing here is sort of like picking which disease we'd prefer to die of: plague or cancer. Either way, you're still dead.

Kind of a pointless argument, really.

I like the math texts from the 1920s-1940s. I have a great used calculus text from that period that was used at MIT by a deceased engineer. It all his notes in the margins.

I thought about this more last night. One you know the number line, there is no reason to hold back.

Math also has a tactile component to it. Discrete problems are solved by writing them out. In fact, most problems have to be written out. And ideal self-learning program would incorporate a tablet PC, HW recognition SW, plus a human-in-the-loop for discussion.

The math classes I learned the most in followed the Socratic method where we had to put our work up on boards and then we discussed it in turn. Sometimes the instructor would write a problem on the board and then cover it up and then you lifted the paper to reveal it and had to solve it in real-time. After a point, the instructor would lecture M and W and assign problems, and we would self-teach and critique. He or she would then critique methods or propose other lines not covered by the student.

While it may not be feasible to get advanced kids together locally, I can see an online virtual classroom working using the Socratic method to teach more mature students math. Using a projector screen for the class and a tablet PC coupled to a large monitor would be good. You could then record the sessions for the student to play back or for other students to learn from.

I am just thinking aloud!

It does sound good.

May I ask: what is the class? Is this CTY?

WOW! That sounds great!

Heh. Do they admin a Turing test, too?

Ah! Thanks, CFK. I should have guessed AoPS. But I've been putting together a 12-page program for a HSing event ALL DAY LONG, and I'm not on my game!

Haven't read the whole thread, but many of the books which I have read emphasize the need for acceleration for PG kids (Gross, Ruf...) In my own experience, it did not work well at all, but I attended a very under-resourced school... I suppose it depends on what the child feels about the situation. Perhaps extracurricular academic activities are enough for some PG kids...