My 6y/o daughter just took the WISC-IV. I am so confused! Kate has always seemed bright to me, but she is my first child & I really don't know what is "normal". I know she is not exceptionally gifted, but I am suspicious that she is moderately gifted. The WISC-IV has only confused me the more I've researched scoring and what it means.
We only decided to screen her after she "failed" develpomental readiness screenings for 3 private schools.
These were the few things that struck me over the years that may indicate giftedness:
She knew the alphabet by age three and all the sounds letters make with very little instruction.
At around 18 to 20 months old, she looked out the car window from a red light and said "That's where doggies go"...this was a small nondescript, no signage shop in a strip mall where we only occasionally took the dogs to be groomed. I was shocked she noticed/recognized/remembered this.
She made her first, funny joke at age two.
At age Four, she worked successfully on adult jigsaw puzzles for so long I had to take them away from her.
She has an intense, ongoing love of the natural world and corrects adults regarding animals, animal behavior, habitat, etc.

Anyway,here are her WISC-IV scores.

VCI 124
(Her scores on the subtests her were all 14. Is this 2 standard deviations from the mean? So is this the low end of gifted scoring?

PRI 129

Now here is where I think her FSIQ was artificially lowered:
WMI 110
PSI 88!!!!

That PSI score of 88 places her in the 21st percentile. That is what prompted me to research these scores. Apparently PSI is a poor indicator of intellectual ability.Kate is a perfectionist
and worked with 100% accuracy on that subtest but timed out.

I would appreciate any info/ comments. Let me just say, I know she is bright and I'm FINE (beyond fine...just thankful to have a healthy child) if she is "merely" bright and not gifted. Just seeking insight!

Do you think her strengths are mostly visual/spatial? See http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Visual_Spatial_Learner/vsl.htm It could be that this test was not really testing her strengths. I have read that the SB-5 is more oriented toward visual/spatial abilities and does not have time pressure.

I believe that a standard deviation on the WISC-IV is 15pts. So two standard deviations from the mean would be 130.

I hope this helps!

Cathy

Hi Pinky -
Your daughter is gifted. The overall WISC scores are not to be used for giftedness because the PRI scores tend to be around average in gifted people. There isn't anything wrong with her. You can use the scores to get a "gifted index" type of score, ask your tester to do that for you.

Remember that IMHO, test scores never can say how high IQ a kid is, they can just give a botton limit to her possible "real IQ." Ok, i haven't said that well, but I think it's true. As you pointed out, if she is slow and careful (traits we want in school settings) she isn't going to shine on timed tests.

Now here's the big question. Has the tester given you any insight as to why she is failing the "developmental readiness screenings?"

Best Wishes,
Trinity

Hi Pinkmonkey,

I tried to find the information which backs up my statements. I wasn�t successful in the twenty minutes I looked, but it was probably on the Davidson Gifted Database. Maybe someone else will fill in the details.

Essentially, when the new SB and the new WISC were tested to norm the gifted population, the scores decreased considerable as compared to the scores the subjects had earned on previous tests. Both tests ended with a gifted average full scale IQ of 123.something for children who had scores of at least 130 on the earlier versions. My son was tested by a psychologist who helped test the gifted population for one of the tests. This psychologist stated that most children that he tested had previous scores above 140.

As Trinity stated, I also understand that VCI and PRI are the sub-tests that are considered to be the best indicators of giftedness on the WISC-IV.

So, as just another mom who has read about the topic, it looks like your child is at least in the moderately gifted range on this �snap-shot� measurement. I would consider it a minimum and test again at 9 or 10.

Who preformed the developmental readiness screenings?

Why?

Thanks to everyone for your comments.

Kate was screened by a teacher at a private school as part of their admission process. This involves spending 10-15 min with a total stranger, they ask the child to draw a simple picture, say their ABC's, identify letters and some short words, count to 10, very basic stuff. Kate was uncooperative and refused to perform some or most of the tasks. Mind you, she has been drawing pretty intricate mosaics for awhile now, reads, and can count to 100. I guess she just didn't feel like jumping through that hoop for a stranger. So that is what prompted the assessment.The psychologist said she felt that was Kate's way of taking control over the situation. Kate is somewhat shy and has some pretty pronounced perfectionist tendencies. She also demonstrates a fair amount of anxiety when asked to read aloud and encounter an unfamiliar word. She will hardly sound a word out; she will read it aloud when she is confident she knows it.

The psychologist also administered a WWCJ-III Achievement Test; Kate scored in the 99th percentile on the Academic Knowledge subtest. I do not know if that is significant as far as IQ goes.

I did speak to the psychologist who recommended bringing Kate back in 3 years or so. It looks like Kate's WISC-Iv scores have her right at the threshold of giftedness.

Does anyone have any experience with their child being retested? I ahave read that your IQ cannot actually be lower than a test result, but can be higher. However, I also read that for a 6 yr old they should be accurate within, say, 8 points. Have any of you had a child retested?

My daughter was tested at seven on the WISC-III and at ten on the WISC-IV. Her FSIQ score decreased considerable with the new test, as did her verbal score.

The second test was part of a multi-day battery to determine whether she has a learning disability. (Auditory perception and processing and expressive language problems were highly suspected by the PhD psychology/MA education head of dept. of a large university, but we (would) have to defer to an audiologist and speech therapist for an official diagnosis.)

Her WISC-III (7 yrs) subtests were as follows: FSIQ 141

Verbal Comprehension 144
Perceptual Organization 133
Freedom from Distractibility 98
Processing Speed 129


Her WISC-IV (10 yrs) subtests were as follows: FSIQ 124 (same as gifted norm group)

Verbal Comprehension 116
Perceptual Reasoning 133
Working Memory 110
Processing Speed 109

I can say with certainty that she is (at least) moderately gifted. Her early development was quite advanced in comparison to age peers. I know her LD depresses her scores, but we live in an area that doesn�t recognize 2E, so supporting her giftedness is a higher priority in our forced choice situation.

BTW, she is very visual. To my knowledge, no one has ever beat her at a game of Concentration, including her Young Scholar brother.

I hope this example helps.

Diana

Diana,

Well from what I've read you can assume the 141 is more correct.
What did the psychologist say about that difference?
I've read that kids can have a bad day and score lower, but that the highest score rec'd is always the more accurate.
Also, some of that drop comes from the different versions of the WISC....right?

Cheryl

Thanks dottie for that info on the subtests. Kate's subtest scores as follows:

VERBAL COMPREHENSION SUBTESTS 124
similarities 14
vocabulary 14
comprehension 14

PERCEPTUAL REASONING INDEX 129
block design 14
picture concepts 17
matrix reasoning 13

According to these, I think you could make a case that Kate is gifted, but her FSIQ does not support this.

WORKING MEMEORY INDEX 110
digit span 13
letter number sequencing 11


PROCESSING SPEED INDEX 88
coding 8
symbol search 8


I guess this is just a little frustrating for me because if you calculate and look at GAI, she is gifted. If you look at FSIQ, she's not. So, how do I descibe her? I have to admit, gifted is on the tip of my tongue yet I don't want to feel like I'm fudging her abilities.

To everyone...are your kids in gifted classes? Kate is starting 1st grade at a private college prep school...I don't think they even have "gifted" classes." I am interested in the Duke Talent Search...is anyone familiar with that?

Dottie...the psychologist administered the full WJ-III Achievement Test. The Academic Knowledge subtest was just the one Kate scored the highest on. The psychologist said we might want to repeat this in another year after she had a year of school under her belt. She has been in a Montessori program since age 3. That environment is very child-led. As a matter of fact, Kate was the only kindergarten student there last year. I didn't realize that until the end of the year graduation ceremony! So I think that was not a very good place for her. She received very little instruction in math and preferred to spend her time doing artwork. My husband and I grew concerned when we looked at the work she was bringing home and there was no math and not much reading work...it was almost 100% artwork. So her WJ scores varied pretty wildly, from the 133 on academic knowledge, 122 on oral comprehension (these were her two highest) to a low of 111 on letter-word identification (which really doesn't make sense to me; I would have thought she would have scored higher here)and a pitiful 96 on spelling (these were her two lowest).
I didn't read much into this test because I thought it was more a reflection of her less than challenging Montessori environment.
I also have done nothing at home except to read to my children. They have had no "extra" beyond that. These issues with the screening problems were really a blessing in disguise, b/c I realize how very important their education is to me.
What is a DYS child? Is that dyslexia?
Have you had all three of your children tested? Honestly, this all made me nervous and I'm debating whether to have my 5 yo tested next year.

Interesting discussion Everyone!

I think if the GAI says gifted and the FSIQ says average, all us Moms say "Gifted."

OTOH, I think of Gifted as much as a possible special need as something to brag about.

A great example is the perfectionism. It's not universal, but it sure is common amoung our Gifted Kids, and has it's own flavor, that I call "Dissonance."
Basically
a kid is way more aware of what an adult "product" should look like than an average kid. The kid judges themselve against impossible standards.
This inhibits one from trying.
This means less practice.
This leads to lower skill development.
Add more looking over one's shoulder, at what the other kids are doing, and
now you have anxiety.

I wouldn't be suprised if your daughter's achievment tests were inhibited by this perfectionism/anxiety also. This would be a great question to ask the tester. Ironically, slow and careful and detailed work is exactly wonderful in school settings - but doesn't boost anyone's speed score.

So how do you parent a child "through" perfectionism?
Thomas S. Greenspon's books, such as "Freeing Our Families from Perfectionism" are a good place to start. You will probably find that you also judge yourself much too harshly - join the club on this one. This is a wonderful opportunity to wiggle the tension loose on yourself and gain insight into your daughter's experience.

Phrases like, "In our family, we try to fit the mode, slow and careful or fast and approximate, to the activity" can be repeated over and over and over, with lots of examples.


Love and More Love,
Trinity

Also, lets start a discussion on in-school gifted programs on a seperate topic, ok?
T

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful insights. And thanks for the book recommendation, Trinity. I will definately be reading that one. I see Kate's perfectionism holding her back and causing her such unnecessary anxiety. I'm afraid she inherited that from me. I remeber once baking a three layer Italian cream cheese cake for my boyfriend's birthday, deciding it just wasn't going to be good, and throwing it away before he ever tasted it!

And, Trinity, I think you are right about the achievement test. WHy would her scores on spelling and letter recognition be so low? She had known all her letters FOR YEARS. And she is reading pretty well and ought to be able to sound out any word she doesn't already know. That said, I hate to keep calling the tester and asking her more questions!

Also, I didn't mean to diss Montessori. You know, it occured to me that Montessori may be a big part of the reason she scored in the 99th percentile on the Academic Knowledge subtest. I think this sort of thing is probably more emphasized than spelling/reading drills. And perhaps that is the way it should be. It is so HARD to know what your child is getting short of following them around all day.

I feel Kate, with her WISC scores, will be fine in this private school with a rigorous cirriculum. For those with gifted children in some public schools, or exceptionally gifted children, you have to work hard to ensure your child is getting everything they need.

Pinkmonkey wrote:

Diana,

Well from what I've read you can assume the 141 is more correct.
What did the psychologist say about that difference?
I've read that kids can have a bad day and score lower, but that the highest score rec'd is always the more accurate.
Also, some of that drop comes from the different versions of the WISC....right?

Cheryl

Hi Cheryl and Everyone,


Sorry that I didn�t answer your question regarding the psychologist�s explanation for lowered scores earlier. Our weekend was crazy busy.

She wrote in the report that the verbal comprehension subtests require the processing of auditorially presented information, use of associative thinking and the generation of quality higher order expressive language. These are the areas where she believes my daughter has significant learning disabilities. The conclusion was that lack of appropriate intervention has decreased her ability in these areas.

I believe that may be a factor, but think there may be a few others. The tester was a grad student and the focus of the assessment was LD, not giftedness. During her previous test (for giftedness), the psychologist sometimes coaxed her to guess rather than accept what she felt were premature �I don�t know.� answers.

Another factor is that this was a newer version test. It is simply harder to score as high as on the previous ones. Whether that is due to the exaggeration of the old ones or because the scores are depressed on the new ones, I don�t know. I do know that they are not comparable. For example, a 145 on the WISC III is not the same as a 145 on the SB5.

In the case of your daughter, a re-test should be no threat for a lowered score since she has only been tested on the new version. Some gifted programs, such as the Young Scholars program, base their acceptance criteria on the Full Scale and/or Verbal Comprehension and/or Perceptual Reasoning scores meeting or exceeding a certain threshold rather than just FSIQ.

She shoots - she scores!
Ok dear, you qualify, which is kind of good, because you get to recover together.

I also like Flylady.com to fight perfectionism, because for me, one of the side effect of perfectionism was that I couldn't bear to throw almost anything away in fear of the self-given tounge lashing I was sure to give myself if I ever turned out to need it. Obviously I am much happier making occasional mistakes and living in a clean, and cleanable, house.


Believe me, It is her job to answer your questions, and when she feels that she is being taken advantage of, she will let you know. Sad to say I have personal experience here.
That's a good point about Montessori's strengths. I also like that she is allowed to draw and develop her creativity. It is hard to know what is happening, but I have noticed that a few hours of quiet observation, in the child's classroom, or if possible in the classroom that the child will be entering next, goes a long way.

then you have a plan, and it seems reasonable to expect that there is a good chance it will work. Hopefully this will buy you some time to work on the perfectionism thing.

best wishes,
Trin

Pink'y, I agree with Dottie. commend! commend!

You mentioned Duke Talent Search. I have experience with John Hopkins' Talent Search and I believe that they are all quite similar. My son has enjoyed the "above-level" testing, where they give reasoning ability tests that are normed to kids 2 or 3 years older than the child, that don't depend on prior knowledge. Then you get to see how you child does compared to other kids who participated in the talent search. It's one way to confirm if your child has abilities that place here in the middle of the gifted pack, or way off in the rarer corners. Again I use the high scores are meaningful, low scores may not be that meaningful perspective. There are also camps, weekend adventures, and sometimes Saturday enrichment classes during the year. This is one of those times were being "middle-of-the-pack" gifted is really great because all these programs are likely to be a good fit. The Rare Corner Gifted kids have to attend with older kids, or in weak areas to get much out of them.

Ask more questions if you have them!
Trin

Boy, you all are so helpful, encouraging and kind. I really appreciate all the advice/opinions.

I really know NOTHING about the talent search process. Do you have to "qualify" with IQ/ or achievement test scores? do the schools tell you about these programs? My school gives achievement tests in 3rd grade. What do the schools generally do with these scores? Do they use that to identify and refer children for these talent searches?

The psychologist suggested retesting Kate in 3 years. She did say Kate was quick to say "I don't Know" or give up, but when prompted/encouraged could indeed often provide an answer. Have any of you had this problem with your children? K is just reluctant to do anything she does not want to do, including answering a question! I am afraid that without the psy. encouraging her and making the testing fun, she would not do her best on a talnet search. Do you all think this is just a maturity issue?

Here is a question I have for everyone: after reading all about the signs of giftedness, K has really strongly displayed many of them. However, my just-turned-5y/o does not. She seems perfectly bright, but none of the sort of "weirdness" K has. This makes me curious about what is going on in B's noggin. Yet I'm reluctant to have her tested next year, you know, you hate to even inadvertantly or unconsciously label your children. The psy said she just wanted to know about her own children and so tested them all; she said it jut helped her know how their brains worked. Have you all tested all your children? Are they all pretty close in their test results?

Also, on this WISC-IV, do any of these subtests correlate with mathematical ability? Isn't that a big part of intelligence( I think I read it was stringly correlated) So I figure one of the subtests must correlate to that.

There is an "arithmetic reasoning" subtest for the WISC IV, but it often isn't used with the usual battery.

Getting my son tested not only helped me realized the reaches of his giftedness a little better, it also clued us in on his learning differences and difficulties.

My son seemed normal, except for a couple of flukish things regarding his handwriting and vocabulary. The WISC IV showed us he was very intelligent, but also that he had severe difficulties in working memory, processing speed and perceptual reasoning.

I'd also like to suggest the book MindSet by Dweck. It addresses that tendency to "give up" and has suggestions on how to change the mindset. I have found it helpful in working with Mite's strong perfectionistic tendencies. We are now liberally using phrases like "this is a learning moment" or "oh wow!! yet another opportunity to expand our knowledge base". He enjoys that new perspective.

Here's a link to Duke TIP website:
http://www.tip.duke.edu/
and here's the information page for the earliest testing they offer - for 4th graders. They don't say what the fee is, but typically the talent search fee is under 100$.

I'm guessing that you don't want to wait until 4th grade, so here is the JHU-CTY page link: http://cty.jhu.edu/ts/grades26.html

You'll notice that they say:
Please note: Students must be attending school or homeschool in AK, AZ, CA, CT, DE, HI, ME, MD, MA, NH, NJ, NY, OR, PA, RI, VT, VA, WA, WV, or DC to receive full Talent Search benefits. For students living overseas, CTY has an International Talent Search.

That doesn't mean that you can't take the test if you live outside of these states, only that you won't get the "full benifits." LOL - as if the above level test for 85$ wasn't enough.

I think that you daughter MAY do quite well, as there is no tester at all, just a computer terminal at a testing center. And it's cheap enought that you can do it again next year with no great loss. Although they allow plenty of time for the test, my son was done in 40 minutes when he was in 3rd grade.

You can do a Parental-nomination, which means that you think she is gifted. Nowadays the NCLB tests are so dull that lots of gifted kids score quite poorly on them. I reccomend that you sign up for this year, even though she is in 2nd grade. Why? well, if she scores in the middle of the pack when she is one year younger, that really confirms the level of perfectionism blocking her on the other tests. If she scores lower - well, she can try again next year and you can see if she has overcome the perfectionism at all. The Scat tests reasoning skill and doesn't depend on any prior knowledge. My kid thought it was fun.

FWIW,
Trin

It seems prudent to get DD5year's testing done as well. I predict that she will score similar to K, because K's scores are temporarily depresssed by the "unwillingness" factor. A lot of second borns are more easy going, harder to notice, and less weird all around, but no less bright.

Willl it influence how you treat them? Well, (wink) I doubt you are overestimating DD5's abilities at this point. That is human nature to assume "weird" = more gifted. Reality is a different story. Remember - you are establishing floors of potiential, not brackets.

Smiles,
Trin

Trinity...you hit the nail on the head!! I DO assume k's "weirdness" equates w/ giftedness! When she was four and spent literally HOURS working on an adult jigsaw puzzle, I thought weird, not gifted. And your other point is well taken...thank you for making it....floors, not brackets.

Willa Gayle...thanks for the book recommendation. It's amazing how much help those kind of phrases can be. That reminds of something else I read one time that I use all the time..."In OUR family, we do/do not do...." As in, "Mom, why do I have to go to church/write a thank you note, not use certain language, wear certain clothes, etc." I reply, "Well, in our family, we write thank you notes beacause we value gratitude and consideration of other's feelings." It just succinctly helps the define the values of our particular family and reinforces a sense of being part of a greater group with certain expectations and benefits.
I like that in nips the argument of "so and so doesn't have to do that" in the bud.

We are off to the beach for a quick vacation before school starts! I will be eagerly reading the forum when I return to see what's been going on.

Thanks for being a good sport Pink'y. I learned all my social skills from the character "Luna Lovecraft" in Harry Potter. ((wink))

Yes, I also though my DS was "weird" not gifted, and I also thought of myself as "weird, not gifted" back then, although now its "Weird AND gifted."

Enjoy the vacation and those little sweeties -
Trinity