Can you do anything for non-compliance in school?

Posted by: Mom0405

Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 01:16 PM

Any insight as to what you can do for a non-compliant 4-yr old boy? Can a child psych do anything for this? Since his (child psych) tester today brought up his non-compliance during the 2-day test (and his pre-school teachers (too easy and boring), and other adults in settings where they want him to sit and be attentive like the other "good" children.). I did warn the psych to not act frustrated if my DS got silly; but he did and DS pushed his buttons.(ho hum) Will the right school setting do it for him? Will DS grow out of it? I haven't really seen any answers to this. Since he was slow to speak; he hasn't quite caught up verbally yet (but the psych said his vocabulary was very high); so most believe that he just has behavior problems for no apparent reason. What can be done other than trying to force him to comply, which obviously backfires for all who have tried? He is pretty compliant with DH and I; but it takes some work. Thanks!
Posted by: BWBShari

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 01:20 PM

According to a friend of mine who has taught K for years, peer pressure take care of it in most cases. Kids don't want to seem like they can't do what everyone else is doing. Even in K the other kids can be ruthless with name calling etc.
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 01:37 PM

DS has been begged by his friends in pre-k to come sit; but the gazillionth day of "days of the week" and even the first day (for the class) of "this is #3" isn't enough to sit for. I do not want him to be shamed into compliance. No child should have to deal with shame and blame. Sorry for the vent.
Posted by: Suzanne

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 01:43 PM

I have not had that problem with my child (ren); because I would not allow it. wink

If you set clear boundaries (and give lots of love of course) at home, it will probably carry over to preschool and he will learn to obey the teachers. I would also be talking to him at home about respecting adults, teachers etc and letting him know your expectations for his behavior there.

.
Posted by: CAMom

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 01:54 PM

I don't think it's as simple as firm boundaries at home. My son has very firm boundaries and is very easygoing at home. He has no tantrums, no behavior issues and lives a very happy little boy life! But he likes to mess with adults and you cannot allow yourself to get baited or you WILL lose. As of yet, he has not had a teacher who was able to understand this. He can drag any unwitting adult off task quickly and on to something he likes better. He can ask relentless questions if you don't say "Choose one question, then we're done until after I_____"

I also don't think that "obeying" is high on my personal priority list. I teach him that there are consequences to every action. As long as you understand what the consequence is (positive or negative) you can make an educated choice. Sometimes he'll say "well I knew I was going to get in trouble for ___ but I wanted to go sit in the corner and play alone anyway." I use that to then ask him if he could have gotten what he wanted without getting in trouble (like asking for quiet space or whatever).
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 01:57 PM

He is great at home; and we have done all of that. We are all about boundaries. He does not rule our home. I guess everyone else just has perfect children. Thanks anyway.
Posted by: Suzanne

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 02:03 PM

No, my children are not perfect. They are children and make mistakes, need to be corrected, get in trouble...just like any children. Do I have higher standards than others? I am sure I do, and not as high as others.

Really, there is no need to be rude.

I am sorry if I offended you.
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 02:12 PM

My child was quite compliant...until he got bored in school. Suddenly he was belligerent, rebellious, even downright nasty. He started missing recesses at school and other kids didn't like him. Despite our firm (FIRM!) boundaries at home, he was even acting out and hurting his little brother.

We found a way to challenge him and--Voila!--happy, pleasant kid with lots of friends returned to us. The change back to the calm, kind, rule-oriented child we had sent to school was immediate. Really, the day he was challenged, he was back to his old self. Just that fast!

They say not to worry about other potential sources of behavior problems until the school fit is corrected. It sounds like you need to start with that school fit. It seems very clear to me that he's not compliant because he simply won't sit through ANOTHER day of "This is #3."

I know you just had him tested. What moves have you made with the school to get him greater challenge so far? Are you waiting for the test results, or have you done something already?
Posted by: EastnWest

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 02:19 PM

Hi -
I see (at least) two separate issues going on here.

#1 - how to have boundaries/limits in school and at home that your ds can follow
#2 - are all of your son's needs being met?*

Regarding #1 - maybe that school is a poor enough fit with your son that he will never comply...

Here is some food for thought regarding #2. I know everyone has different parenting philosophies and styles so I don't mean to push AP. Reading your posts made me think of these articles:

Why Do Children "Misbehave"? by Aletha Solter, Ph.D.
http://www.awareparenting.com/misbehav.htm

1. The child is attempting to fill a legitimate need.
2. The child lacks information (or is too young to understand or remember rules).
3. The child is suffering from stress or unhealed trauma.

Also:
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/attachment_parenting.html
http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/reviews/parenting_books/setting_limits.html


*and please keep in mind that if "all" his needs are not being met for the moment, it is not your fault. Sometimes the underlying needs are buried deep. (And then of course, sometimes some needs conflict with others...) From your posts it sounds like you are in a vulnerable place right now.(feel free to correct me if you are not) It is no fun when your "baby" is hurting and it is hard to figure out why! Especially when the child you have at home is behaving so differetnly than the one at school. (re-read Kriston's post and the posts on the HS vs. PS thread) Take a deep breath and know that you are doing a great job figuring out what his "other needs" are and how to meet them.
Posted by: Suzanne

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 02:25 PM

never mind
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 02:42 PM

I'm not critical, Suzanne, beyond the fact that I don't see how this link helps the OP with her problem. Are you suggesting religious homeschooling as a solution?
Posted by: Suzanne

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 02:43 PM

No, it is not just a homeschooling site. It is primarily a parenting site.
Posted by: Jamie B

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 02:57 PM

My son is very non-compliant at school. It's so bad that he's about to get kicked out of Pre-K. Like you our rules are very firm at our house. He knows what he is and isn't allowed to do. Unfortunately doing whatever it is that he wants outweighs the punishment later.

At home if I give him something challenging to do he will focus on it and sit somewhat still longer than normal so maybe it's like what everybody else has said. Maybe he's not being challenged enough and it's causing him to act like that.

My son's teacher told him that if he didn't behave he wouldn't be allowed to stay in Pre-K. He told her that that was fine because there wasn't anything that she was teaching that he didn't know. We don't tolerate sassy remarks like that at home but that might give you an example of what his school has to deal with. Sounds like your son might be a little of the same way.

Have they tried challenging him at all to see if it helps?
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 03:06 PM

To a pre-K or K aged child, this:

Originally Posted By: Jamie B's son
He told her that that was fine because there wasn't anything that she was teaching that he didn't know.


isn't so much sassy as it is true...

Just a thought!
Posted by: Jamie B

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 03:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Kriston
To a pre-K or K aged child, this:

Originally Posted By: Jamie B's son
He told her that that was fine because there wasn't anything that she was teaching that he didn't know.


isn't so much sassy as it is true...

Just a thought!
Yes, it is true and they are so honest at that age. When she told me that in one of our many conferences I wanted to crawl under the table though!
Posted by: EastnWest

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 03:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Jamie B
My son's teacher told him that if he didn't behave he wouldn't be allowed to stay in Pre-K. He told her that that was fine because there wasn't anything that she was teaching that he didn't know. We don't tolerate sassy remarks like that at home but that might give you an example of what his school has to deal with.


Was your son being sassy or was he being honest? Or both?

I teach my DSalmost5 to be mindful of his tone and his attitude. Like you, I am trying to raise a polite, respectful kid. There are times when my ds crosses the line into rudeness and I check him on that. There are other times when I can tell that in his mind, he is just stating the facts or giving his opinion.

Random example "I don't want to spend the day with X, I want to spend the day with Y". On the one hand, if X was in earshot that statement could hurt X's feelings. Depending on the tone and intent that could be a very hurtful statement. On the other hand, DS is being honest and clear about his preferences.

Not the best example, but hopefully you all see what I mean.

As parents, we teach them to monitor and adjust. For me, that doesn't change the validity of his orginal statement. He should be able to express his feelings about where he wants to go and who he wants to go with. I am the parent and I make the final decision, but I want my DS to feel comfortable in voicing his opinion (and know how to do it respectfully).

I can't imagine being a 5 year-old and (in the average traditional classroom) have very little say in what I get to learn.
Posted by: EastnWest

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Jamie B
Originally Posted By: Kriston
To a pre-K or K aged child, this:

Originally Posted By: Jamie B's son
He told her that that was fine because there wasn't anything that she was teaching that he didn't know.


isn't so much sassy as it is true...

Just a thought!
Yes, it is true and they are so honest at that age. When she told me that in one of our many conferences I wanted to crawl under the table though!


HAHA. I am late to the party. you and Kriston already covered it.
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 03:36 PM

LOL! Great minds think alike! But don't you hate it when you take the time to write a well-thought, carefully written, comprehensive post on a subject, only to find that some wisenheimer stole your thunder with a one-liner?

grin

On the bright side, that happens to me a lot, too. Long posts are my downfall! ROFL!
Posted by: kimck

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 03:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Kriston
LOL! Great minds think alike! But don't you hate it when you take the time to write a well-thought, carefully written, comprehensive post on a subject, only to find that some wisenheimer stole your thunder with a one-liner?

grin

On the bright side, that happens to me a lot, too. Long posts are my downfall! ROFL!


Mine too! Same thing just happened to me in this thread as well. Ah well ... what Kriston said. wink
Posted by: EastnWest

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Jamie B
My son is very non-compliant at school. It's so bad that he's about to get kicked out of Pre-K.


JamieB - What are you going to do if he is "asked to leave" preK?

I am curious because a) maybe your experience will help the OP and b) my son is going to K in the fall and I am dreading sending him there because I don't want him to change/act out when they start doing things he already knows. (we are looking into other options but public K is the back-up plan)

Thanks!

Also, Mom0405,

Keep us posted. We hope you find a way to turn things around for your son at school.

EW
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 04:20 PM

I have a dear friend whose son was "asked to leave" several pre-Ks. He is neurologically atypical, but with no specific diagnosis. His dad is a pediatric expert, so the child has had every test known to man. He's just not diagnosable.

Personally, I think he was mostly just HG and bored. The problems continued into elementary, and she finally pulled him out for homeschooling. He certainly has behavior issues, but he did a lot better once he was homeschooled and sufficiently challenged.

He's back in school now--with no acceleration or other attention to his GTness--and the problems are back. Color me surprised... His mom didn't think the return to school would work, but went along with it for some valid reasons. I'll be shocked if they're not back homeschooling next year.

About fearing your child acting out EW:

Actually, I was kind of relieved that my son acted out when he was having school fit issues. As hard as that was to deal with, I greatly preferred that to the thought that he might just be silently dying inside... YMMV...
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 04:25 PM

He's been taken out.
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 04:27 PM

Thanks. I don't want to have him suffer anymore, either. We are looking into a "gifted" private school for next year.
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 04:32 PM

How does that look? Have you visited the school?
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 04:44 PM

We do not believe in spanking. We want DS to respect us because we respect him, and therefore everyone else around him. We also don't say no without giving him a reason, because it is respectful. We want him to know that hitting is wrong because it hurts other people. And we are supposed to love one another.

I was not being rude earlier. You were the one insulting my parenting. But you are forgiven.
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 04:46 PM

I am going Thursday morning. Thank you. I have gotten two stories about their being full. A friend/parent said they were; but the school said they were still accepting apps.
Posted by: OHGrandma

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 05:12 PM

Originally Posted By: EastnWest
Hi -
I see (at least) two separate issues going on here.

#1 - how to have boundaries/limits in school and at home that your ds can follow
#2 - are all of your son's needs being met?*

Regarding #1 - maybe that school is a poor enough fit with your son that he will never comply...

Here is some food for thought regarding #2. I know everyone has different parenting philosophies and styles so I don't mean to push AP. Reading your posts made me think of these articles:

Why Do Children "Misbehave"? by Aletha Solter, Ph.D.
http://www.awareparenting.com/misbehav.htm

1. The child is attempting to fill a legitimate need.
2. The child lacks information (or is too young to understand or remember rules).
3. The child is suffering from stress or unhealed trauma.

Also:
http://www.naturalchild.com/jan_hunt/attachment_parenting.html
http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/reviews/parenting_books/setting_limits.html


*and please keep in mind that if "all" his needs are not being met for the moment, it is not your fault. Sometimes the underlying needs are buried deep. (And then of course, sometimes some needs conflict with others...) From your posts it sounds like you are in a vulnerable place right now.(feel free to correct me if you are not) It is no fun when your "baby" is hurting and it is hard to figure out why! Especially when the child you have at home is behaving so differetnly than the one at school. (re-read Kriston's post and the posts on the HS vs. PS thread) Take a deep breath and know that you are doing a great job figuring out what his "other needs" are and how to meet them.


Wow! You just listed some of the top areas I visited the first year we got custody of GS9. He was 5.5, in K, and a total mess! And as his trauma healed, he blossomed in school. His GTness ended up causing some of the same symptoms as his trauma, but as his needs have been met, he's doing really well. Whether the links will help the OP any or not, most everyone can probably pick up one or two things from them.
I'd also like to comment about the 3 items:

Why Do Children "Misbehave"? by Aletha Solter, Ph.D.
Quote:
http://www.awareparenting.com/misbehav.htm

1. The child is attempting to fill a legitimate need.
2. The child lacks information (or is too young to understand or remember rules).
3. The child is suffering from stress or unhealed trauma.


Sometimes the stress or trauma can be caused by an ill-fit at school, especially with a child too young to have developed the skills to cope with a stressful situation.
Posted by: elizabeth4

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 05:20 PM



Quote:
Sometimes the stress or trauma can be caused by an ill-fit at school, especially with a child too young to have developed the skills to cope with a stressful situation.


Amen, OHGrandma!
Posted by: elh0706

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 05:51 PM

Mom 0405,
Sounds like you have the situation as under control as you can for the moment!

Just wanted to let you know that I can empathize with your situation. Regardless of if DH and I are lousy parents or it was a bad school fit or just DS's temperment, he has been pulled from 1 school at age 4.5, expelled from another at 7, and we are currently advocating with the public school since they seem to think that expecting him to spend most of his school time learning how to handle being bored.

I don't expect anyone to FIX my child, he isn't broken. Give him appropriate challenge and he is a completely different child from the one coming home from school the past few months.

There is not one way to raise these challenging children. Othrwise as I read somewhere else the placenta would include an instruction manual tailored to each child... That is why I love this board. It is a very supportive environment to gather information, make suggestions and try out ideas without judgment.

Best of luck and keep posting smile
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 05:56 PM

Let me make a blanket statement:

No one here is a bad parent.

If you are here, you are going above and beyond. You care. You love. You're trying.

No one here is a bad parent. Period.

Hang in there, elh and Mom0405. We're pulling for you!
Posted by: elh0706

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 06:02 PM

Kriston,
LOL, hanging in there with my fingernails right now. Tweens are starting and ADHD combined type looks more and more likely as we see more issues with executive function. I've been reading the ADHD thread with great interest since meds are out due to another medical condition.

smile
Posted by: Kriston

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 06:07 PM

That sounds challenging for you. Is his getting older helping or making it worse?
Posted by: Suzanne

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/14/09 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Kriston
Let me make a blanket statement:

No one here is a bad parent.

If you are here, you are going above and beyond. You care. You love. You're trying.

No one here is a bad parent. Period.

Hang in there, elh and Mom0405. We're pulling for you!


I agree. No one here is a bad parent. We all care about our children and want what is best for them. I am really sorry my views were so upsetting to you. I was NOT insulting your parenting in any way. I have no idea why you feel so attacked! I have apologized both here and via a PM and you still sound so angry and offended. It does not sound like you have forgiven me, even though you say you did.

I am starting to feel attacked for just trying to help.
Posted by: BethG

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/15/09 06:39 AM

OP, I feel your pain. My DD7 is in trouble every.single.day at school. We've been dealing with this since she was in 4 year old preschool (she is now in second grade.) Talking out of turn, emotional outbursts, in people's personal space, etc. It got to the point where we had her evaluated by a psychologist because we were concerned about possible ADHD and/or anxiety.

All we got is that she is gifted and is also struggling with neurological immaturity. Essentially she will grow out of it and being better challenged will help. It's hard watching her struggle and feeling like a "bad parent".
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/15/09 06:43 AM

I am sorry. I just needed help, support and advice. You are not under attack. I appreciate everyone's views, or I wouldn't have even looked into your suggestion of the website. I am open for anything. I think that I just have to have a wait and see attitude in the fall if he even gets in to this new school. We are going to try a tae kwondo class to see if he will listen there this week or next week. I also am looking into some summer prgrams as well. I really appreciate everyones help. Hug from me to you, sincerely.
Posted by: Artana

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/15/09 07:10 AM

Mom0405,
First, I completely understand what you are going through. My younger son has a lot of these traits. One thing that we are working with is vision therapy. It turns out that he has trouble tracking things with his eyes. (Not convergence issues, he's 20/20 so he sees ok). He tends to get off-task because he is avoiding the amount of effort he has to do to actually track what is going on. All of his behaviors are ADHD-like, and could be a combination. I even talked to a behavior therapist, and he said that about 20% of the children who are diagnosed as ADHD that he's seen also have convergence problems, double vision, etc.

I know that boredom causes a lot of behaviors. I fight with that all the time. I also don't believe in spanking and believe in respect. this is why I'm always touting The Explosive Child book by Dr. Greene. His plan for behaviors that are inflexible deals with the idea that learning to work through these situations is a skill. Different children may not have learned the skills needed to work their way mentally through problematic situations. The plan he discusses is respectful of the child.

Posted by: FrustratedNJMOM

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/15/09 07:21 AM

Hi Mom0405
Has anyone ever suggested applied behavior analysis (ABA)? It's commonly used for kids with autism but it applies to us all. You may want to seek out a board certified behavior analyst to conduct a functional behavior assessment (FBA). I stress this person needs to be board certified. A psychologist who is not board certified by the BACB is not qualified.
From the FBA you should learn what motivates and maintains your son's behavior. The behavior analyst should be able to help you with a specific plan to decrease non-compliance and replace it with a more appropriate reponse.
I had a FBA done on my son then 4 and having the same issues. The FBA really helped me understand why my son does what he does and how to handle him. Check out www.bacb.org - there's a registry of certified consultants and you may find some in your area.
I also like the book "1,2,3 Magic". It has some useful tips.
Goodluck. If you need more specifics on ABA - let me know.
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/15/09 12:32 PM

Thank you Artana and FrusNJMOM. I hadn't heard of these things and do constant web searches looking for answers. DS is stubborn as all get out (like his parents), and a master manipulator; but he is mostly very playful, fun, funny and a fantastically sweet boy. So his behavior issues are not all the time. I am going to do an experiment for a week and see how much he really is manipulating us at home. Thanks.
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/17/09 07:19 PM

If he can focus on/point out/find words on pages in books is it possible to have convergence issues? I am not familiar with this. He is 20/20 as well; but it's possible that something else is going on there??? I point out words on pages that I want him to try, and it's like he has to find where I am pointing.?
Posted by: FrustratedNJMOM

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/18/09 03:22 AM

Convergence issues are really out of my realm. I can offer that my son who could read would pretend he couldn't read for his teachers. He just didn't feel like doing it & was very cleverly non-compliant. He'd ask them what the word was or say he couldn't sound them out. I tricked him into reading for them by sending some favorite books to school. I don't know if this helps.
On the FBA - many schools have ABA consultants under contract & you may be able to get the district to pay for the assessment. They pay for FBAs all the time in my area. Good luck!
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/18/09 01:40 PM

thanks
Posted by: Artana

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/20/09 05:47 AM

Mom0405,
What you are talking about, with having to find where you are pointing, is exactly what my DS6 has. He can mostly read, but he skips a word suddenly on a line and goes to the next line. He can't follow what I point at. His issues are not convergence-related, they are visual tracking related.

I would definitely look on http://covd.org/ to find a doctor and get an initial appointment.
Posted by: Mom0405

Re: Can you do anything for non-compliance in school? - 04/22/09 04:24 PM

thank you