Wow, haven't been here in awhile -- definitely not nearly as often as I should -- and the forum's even gotten a facelift! I've been trying to login using my previous user name, but for some reason the reminder e-mail's not getting sent so I just decided to register again.

Anyway, hello everyone Just want to share some news about my 6 year old (link to my previous posts in my siggy) - the Clark County Highly Gifted Program finally got around to sending their licensed psychologist out to my son's school last week to test him.

And finally, I got a call yesterday saying that my son qualified for the Highly Gifted program The lady I spoke with said, "Your son is a very smart young man.", and -- is it just me or did everyone else feel this too? -- I mean, I've always known my son was smart and so has his teachers and the rest of my family, but to actually have concrete proof of it just really blew me away.

They're going to send me the results in the mail, but she told me over the phone that his Stanford Binet results were - composite score: 149; verbal: 145; abstract/reasoning: 144; quantitative/math skills: 148. I don't know if that's good, but I'm just really happy that this part is over, that licensed people are confirming something I've already known.

We will all have a meeting next week with my myself, my son, the school principal, his teacher, the GATE teacher, and the folks from the Highly Gifted program to discuss options for Lyle.

Honestly, I'm a bit nervous and excited about the meeting -- but I'm looking for help from the rest of you as to what should I expect, what sort of questions should I ask, should I demand for, if any, in my son's behalf. The lady I spoke with said they certainly can do grade acceleration/subject acceleration -- just depends on the school's leniency and if Lyle can handle it emotionally/socially. She said they will definitely put my son in the GATE program even though that doesn't start till 3rd grade, but I'm wondering if that's enough? What else should I ask for?

Thanks in advance for pointers from you folks who've been here before

-- KAT

Oh, just checked the mailbox, and found the letter--

Dear Parent(s):

Your child has been evaluated for consideration for the Highly Gifted Program in the Clark County School District. Inclusion in this program is based on the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Test, 4th Edition, and/or the Stanford-Binet L-M. Placement in the Highly Gifted Program requires a test composite above the mid-140 range (3 standard deviations above the norm).

Lyle qualifies for the Highly Gifted Program with the following scores:

Verbal Reasoning 145
Abstract/Visual Reasoning 144
Quantitative Reasoning 148
Short Term Memory 126
Stanford-Binet IV Composite 153

Your child's Principal, Counselo, and Teachers will be notified of his placement and your child will be visited at school by one of the GATE specialists within our program.

----

I'm trying to get more info on what exactly does the results above mean, but seem to get more confused the more information I find. Since I saw that the Stanford-Binet 5th edition is out, does that mean the 4th edition is outdated? Should I get newer/other tests? I thought Highly Gifted meant the same across the board, but now I'm coming across terms such as Highly Gifted, Exceptionally Gifted, Profoundly Gifted..where do the test scores place my son?

Oh, and isn't it odd his Short Term Memory is only 126? Or is this normal? What can I do to improve this?

Sorry for so many questions, but it seems I have more questions now after I've gotten the results than I did before, if that makes any sense

Your son's scores are very nice!!!

How wonderful that he will be accepted to a highly gifted program.

I wouldn't worry about the short term memory being lower. It is still quite high!

If they accept the SB4 scores, I'd leave it at that.

I have to run My son is yelling to have me come out to ride the hover craft that he and his dad just finished! THay are both very excited!

Hovercraft sounds fun!

Cheers!

I wouldn't worry about the short term memory score, either. I think those scores are often affected by how interesting the children find the task. They don't remember what they don't care about. DS got a working memory score of 47th percentile on the WISC4 (boring task) and was diagnosed with ADD because it was so much lower than his other scores. But he got 99.9 percentile on working memory on the SB5, because he thought the task was really fun. So I took away the ADD diagnosis without consulting anyone. I'm guessing that the short term memory on the SB 4 is a similar kind of thing.

And I wouldn't recommend doing another test. These scores are giving him what he needs right now and helping you get a sense of where he fits. If at some time they don't, then you can revisit the issue.

So what sort of questions should I be asking when I meet with everyone next week? What demands should I make in behalf of my son? What's too much or too little? Should I push for grade acceleration? He seems to always gravitate towards the older kids at the playground instead of his peers, and has always been very social. He loves conversing with grownups too, and the adults are always pleasantly surprised once he starts yapping off because of the extensive vocabulary that just rolls off his tongue with ease.

Dear KAT,

Is your son going to go to the highly gifted program before the end of this school year of wait until next year? If it's this year, you might ask to go see the program and meet with the teachers before the IEP. That way you'll know what's appropriate to ask for. Our highly gifted program lets the child visit for a day before the IEP to make sure they like it, fit in, etc.

Does the highly gifted program go through elementary school or all the way to high school? I had my kids grade-advanced (1 grade) after several years in the highly gifted elementary program. It was a hard decision because I didn't want to rush them out of the program, but I hated the fact that they would end up on the "other side" (middle school) back with age mates after spending years doing accelerated curriculum. It seemed stupid. Also, my kids like older kids (like your son) and it worked well for them. But I wouldn't rush into it before you see the program. Presumably age/grade shouldn't matter much while you're in the program (they should do advanced work)--it should matter more when they get out.

Your son seems to have strrenghts across the board so see what they do for each area. The program might already have in place that might meet the needs of your son. Reading, language arts, math, etc. should be accelerated and/or compacted and enriched. Our program uses accelerated reader, class book analysis projects, ALEKS math, they can test out of spelling units, etc. Does your son have specific passion areas yet? I have a son who loves to write so we had him do a book publishing project and create a newsletter. Your son may be a little young for those type of goals. I like contests (art, essay, poetry, math)--that's possibly something to ask for. We do Continental Math and now (thanks to Ania) Math Kangaroo. I really think keyboarding skills are very important from the start. Also working with programs like Word, Powerpoint, Xcel, etc.

Go see the program and talk to people there first--that's my suggestion. Good luck!

Cym,

I appreciate your feedback, and I honestly don't have all the answers to your questions (ie, is my son going to go to the Highly Gifted Program before the end of the school year or wait till next year, does it go all through high school, etc), so I will just see what happens at next week's meeting, and see what their program is like, see what they have to say, and take it from there.

Since end of last year, his teacher has already had him go out for reading to a 2nd grade class, and he attends a 5th grade class just to sit in every now and then. I'm so glad he's not the shy type as I would've been in those situations had I been his age; he just loves meeting new people.

But the tests he brings home to me from class, makes me shake my head because they were stuff he had already mastered at 3, so I wonder if he's still being challenged enough. Like the math's addition and subtraction which they're doing now in class, it's stuff he was doing in his head when pointing out to a group of items when he was still in diapers. And the spelling words, "house", "flow", etc.. my son is now and have been reading on his own with no prodding from me, almanacs, dictionaries, the newspaper if I'm not too careful (I don't like him reading the news yet, I think there's still stuff out there he's too young to understand), and once he told me "Mom, did you know Jello has a high viscosity? Can you make me some please?" (I was embarrassed but I had to look up what viscosity meant )

How old is your son now? At 6, he loves all the typical 6 year old stuff - video games, cartoons, sports. He hates to write by hand but give him a PC and Word, and he'll write up a storm. He writes stories based on his favorite action figures, puts them into chapters, and on the front of each book is always a dedication to me I think he spends more time on the computer than other kids his age simply because I'm in the IT field and he's been in front of computers ever since he was born.

I really love this forum because I can learn so much from you all that's been here before, and I can actually talk to people who can *relate*.

Thanks

Hi again KAT,

I have 4 boys, ages 5, 8, 10 and 12--all HG/PG. The creative writing one I mentioned is 10. The avid reader/economic theorist is 12. The math one is 8. We don't know what's in store for us yet with the 5 yr old. Yes, it's comforting to find that there are others other there (here) that are experiencing some of the same things I face.

One last bit of advice...go to the HG program willing to help/volunteer. Our program's teachers appreciate parents so much. I used to volunteer to do science experiments with the class, and before that art projects. One mom continues to volunteer to teach Spanish to the class. We help advocate with the administration for sufficient classroom space and money, chaperone field trips, even plan field trips and speakers. Now we're trying to help them select science curriculum technology. In return, the teachers work hard for each kid. It's important to keep it positive.

I will do as suggested!

My, with so many geniuses in the family, you must have quite interesting dinnertime conversations!

Hi Kat,
Who "were" you? I can't find your old posts on the link.

But "whoever you are" (wink) -
Congradulations on your son's identification. I hope the school program is a good fit for him. I would ask if they could give you a heads up on what kinds of scores the other kids in the program got. Even if they only share qualifing information with you, that tells you a lot because there tend to be a majority of kids clustered near the cutoff, because that the bigest population. Has there even ever been a kid in their program with IQ scores like your child. Is 10% within 10 points of your child? This will give you some indication of how much "coasting" you might be able to do.

You've noticed that there are no standardised definitions of Highly Gifted, Profoundly, Exceptionally - but people do use the "standard deviation" designations as a kind of short hand.

Truth be told, there isn't a standard definition of Gifted...for some it's about the child's achievements, for some it's about potential. I tend to think of it as a cluster of developmental differences that may (or may not) require special teaching and parenting techniques.

I was wondering if you have applied to the Davidson Young Scholar Program...Good luck if you do.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Hi Trinity! <waves>

My former username was isugari on the forums;

Clark County's elgibility info is here: http://ccsd.net/schools/twitchell/staff/minnich/eligibility.htm . I guess based on that, our county here offers different levels of gifted programming services? ie, GATE, TAGS, & Highly Gifted Services.

Their Highly Gifted Services state:

The Highly Gifted Program is a K-12 program offered to eligible students with general intellectual abilities at or above 145 on the Stanford Binet Intelligence Scale administered by a licensed psychologist. The Highly Gifted Program offers instruction in an inclusive setting with individualized programs developed for each identified student. Differentiated activities are provided to the students during the school day and a variety of social and/or academic activities offered after school hours throughout the school year.

So I guess the qualifying scores for their highly gifted services is at or above 145 on the SB. At the meeting with all the key folks (my son, his dad, my son's teacher, the GATE teacher, the school principal, and the county's Highly Gifted specialist), we were told out of about roughly 300,000 school kids in Clark County, they only have about 135 highly gifted identified.

The Highly Gifted specialist drew out a bell curve sketch for us on paper and said that here on the middle 50% line is where the general school age population falls, then farther out, this is where the GATE teacher's kids fall, and my son, he falls out here... and she drew out a tiny speck on the end of the curve. Our particular specialist who will be our Highly Gifted coordinator handles the Northwest side of town and she has about 20 highly gifted kids, with my son being the youngest.

My son will continue with 3rd grade reading, and will also get math acceleration. He started GATE classes this week too and seem to be enjoying that. They seemed to be a bit held back and reserved on grade skipping this early for my son and said it was something they can do later on when he's in 3rd or 4th grade. But I asked them, what about his grading then? His current report card and all the work he brings home is all at 1st grade level, which he's already well beyond, is he going to get graded too for the higher level subjects? The principal said they will work on devising a report card just for him, but it may take them time, but that definitely before end of this school year, they will test him to see where they will place him for certain subjects next year.

Oh, and we'll be attending SENG workshops here in Vegas, where our coordinator will be a speaker. It should be fun, and will be my first real interaction, and my son's too, with like-minded kids and for me, parents.

We'll be applying to the Davidson's Young Scholar Program, but since we only have the IQ test results and none of the achievement tests yet, I still need to gather his portfolio together. Probably will send it off next month

Hi Kat,
Wow - your son's school district certianly seems to have their act together for kids like your son. I like the volunteering suggestion, but other than that, I think you are probably safe to step back and let the school do their thing. Lucky you - you get to concentrate on "normal Mom" things - like guiding moral development, and sharing favorite bits of the culture. Stay close to him so that if things aren't working out at school, you'll be able to know if he's unhappy. I don't think grade skips will be nescessary if they are doing all they say they do on their blurb - in fact there was a little discussion on the young scholar list about trying to undo grade skips once children got into excellent fit school programs that were meeting their needs - the parents didn't want them to age out!

Keep us posted and enjoy! We love to hear brags and cute stories.
Trinity

I have school district envy. I wonder if that is Freudian?

This year, this is how our district used their gifted education funds. They appointed one existing teacher per school to be the gifted services supervisor for the school.

That sounds good right? Well consider the following...

1) NONE of the teachers chosen had previous gifted education training.

2) The only training they received this year was an afternoon in-service.

3) They don't work with gifted children but with the teachers and at that they only advise on how to enrich the curricula if the teacher asks for assistance.

4) This to me is the worst, gifted children are NOT identified and if by chance they are, they do not get services.

So basically, we have wasted the money on untrained teachers who assist other teachers in enriching lessons for WHO-KNOWS-WHO?

certainly not the neglected gifted kids....

Does the school administer the SB or are the parents responsible for the testing? I have been working to get an HG/PG elementary class in our district but have been told that the district has no way to identify the students. Apparently the tests that are currently used for GT identification have too low of a ceiling to identify HG/PG kids.

you know actually they have to use standardized tests yearly == like the itbs. if a kid scores in 99th%ile on verbal AND analytical, then they have a decent screening instrument in place, thus reducing the cost of identifying.

the only problem with that is 2E kids would still get missed. but it is one screen that is already in place that virtually no school district wants to admit they can use. actually thinking about it, it screens for 2E, too. A discrepancy between those scores of more than 1SD would, imo, merit evaluation for SPED.

suggest using the mandate tests for screening.

I know it is a public school, but maybe you could suggest that parents must pay the cost for a private IQ test if they want their child considered for a highly gifted program. The exception could be that it would be provided free of charge to families who qualify for free lunch.

Just thinking out-loud

Hi Texas Summer,
Good Luck with your project - sounds very interesting! Are they looking to set this up for Kindergardeners up through 5th? For very young elementary students Deb Ruf's Giftedness Levels might be helpful, and they don't require expensive testing. For 3rd graders, and up, one could use the talent search. Actually, any of the standard tests your school uses as achievement test, could be used as above level tests for kid in younger grades.

There are also some novel ways that actually work, like as all the kids in a classroom to write down the names of the three smartest kids, and look for trends. These kids can then be given further tests, or not. I believe that this method has been tried and found very effective - does anyone have a reference here?

Another way is to give a test that would test all the objectives that are supposed to be learned at the current grade level. Kids who know 90% of the material can be given the corresponding test for the next year up. Kids who score 90% can be given the corresponding test for plus two years up. Take the ones who score the best and put 'em in the class. Reccomend that the rest get gradeskips.

There is an excellent book from the ERGE, part of an excellent series on gifted, that mean to introduce students to the classic research studies. The one's I've gotten from my library have been very readable.

These might be of help:


Identification of Students for Gifted and Talented Programs (Essential Readings in Gifted Education Series) by Joseph S. Renzulli and Sally M. Reis (Paperback - Mar 6, 2004)

Curriculum for Gifted and Talented Students (Essential Readings in Gifted Education Series) by Joyce L. VanTassel-Baska

Program Evaluation in Gifted Education (Essential Readings in Gifted Education Series) by Carolyn M. Callahan and Sally M. Reis (Paperback - Mar 11, 2004)

Remember two things -

1) The identification method should fit the type of services you offer. A visual-spatial lego builder may or may not be well served in a writing-intensive gifted program. I've heard it said that the more extreame the giftedness, the more extreame the variation between individuals. I'm not sure I believe it, but I'm sure that it's true from the prespective of trying to provide an education that is right for each individual child.

2)The program should be different (challenging) enough from the general curriculum that pretty much the only kids who's needs aren't being met in the regular classroom would even want to be there. That way you can let kids visit, and see if they fit "no matter what the tests say." You may want a program where the strongest readers come and join your core group for reading, strongest math-ers come and join for math.

If it's possible for the teachers from the highly gifted program to interact with classroom teachers and help the classroom teachers met the needs of moderately gifted kids inside the regular classrooms, or reccomend gradeskips for the kids who need them, I suspect that the gifted teacher might be able to keep his/her eyes open for kids who would be best served in the highly gifted program but didn't get found for one reason or another at the time of testing, that way some of the pressure is off of the team to "get it right, right now." Some kids won't show their gifteness until they get that differentiated curriculum or their grade skip, but then (once the depression, or attitude, or whatever has lifted) they may turn out to be HG/PG afterall.

What ever you do will be better than what is now, and teach you more about the next step. Don't let perfectionism stop you, ok?

Love and More Love,
Trinity

The only standardized test that Texas uses is the TAKS test. It is a pass or fail grade level test so it is worthless for any type of gifted identification.

I don't know if I could get it to fly if parents had to pay for the testing. I am currently trying to get information from existing programs to see how programs are run in other places. I would like to be able to show a successful program as a model. To date, I have only been able to locate one program and I cannot get anyone from that program to communicate with me.

A licensed psychologist from our school district's Highly Gifted program administered the SB test; they went to my son's school last year when he was in Kinder for the pre-screen and went back again this year for the full testing. They've been really good communication-wise, and Trinity is right about how it looks like they really have their act together.

I'm still keeping very close tabs on my son, I know he enjoys the GATE classes and chess club at school on Fridays, but he still gets "yellows" and sometimes even "red" in class because he really has a tendency to just yell out answers, and his teacher has a bit of hard time getting him to finish some of his work (coloring, writing assignments in class).

Despite several different approach, it will still take my son forever to finish something, and how can he be graded on unfinished work? We figure it's because some of the tasks that don't have problem solving involved don't motivate him enough; he's the same at home when he brings home homework - he'd do the math ones first but leaves off the coloring and tracing/writing the spelling words to the very end to the point it'll take him forever to complete the assignment.

Also, does anyone else have this problem where (this is per the teacher's report when we all met together) your child takes on a sort of "leadership role" in class and basically gets other kids to do stuff for him? It seems that sometimes my son would have a few students from the class do stuff for him like coloring, cutting stuff out. I don't think my son is bossy, but I've noticed he sometimes take on the helpless act when it comes to the mundane work, and when I ask him if he had someone do work for him, he answers "Well, he asked if he could help, so I said yes".

How can I motivate him to get even the mundane tasks finished (such as writing sentences down not just make them up in his head, tracing, etc)? To finish all the work and not just pick out the ones that he likes (math, problem solving)?

Any tips?

LOL KaT,
I think you should call the school and read to them what you wrote to us - Right Now. Then let us know what they said! Who to call? Can you reach the psychologist who sat down with you? Someone from the highly gifted program?

This isn't a character issue, this is a "fit" problem. Get it straightend out now (I mean the teacher not your kid) before it becomes one, ok?

Smile and Wink,
Trin

Texas Summer,
See if you can get a hold of the standardised test for older kids and use them. The parent's shouldn't have to pay for the IQ test routienly. Figure out the content of the program first, and the identification route will follow - don't let the tail wag the dog.
Trinity

DS11 has just figured out that if we time him on the easy stuff, it really helps him. He'll say "I bet I can get this done in 3 minutes" and then one of us sets the timer and he sees if he can "beat the clock." I think this helps him feel that this task is finite and the added challenge makes it fun. I will tell you that he discovered this himself. Not sure if it would work if imposed from the outside..

Anne

His teacher told us the story about my son's "leadership role" while we were at the meeting, and everyone else laughed (?!) while I groaned. Don't know why?! Maybe they thought it was cute that he "has a system all worked out" and didn't think it a problem?! I knew something was up (funny how we know our kids soo well) when he brought home a leprechaun cutout and it was done so neatly, and the coloring was all even and not outside the lines, and I said, "Wow, this looks great, did you do this?", and he hesitated before saying, "Yes, but a few people helped out." I didn't think anything of it till a few days later we all met for the HG meeting and his teacher recounted some of his activities for us.

Anne - his teacher already tried the "beat the clock" timer approach, and it worked for awhile, but still a hit or miss, he does stuff (or rather doesn't do them) when he feels like it. It takes him hours to complete a coloring or tracing or scissors assignment in class that would take the other children 10 minutes to finish.

I call that "leadership role", the "Tom Sawyer Syndrome". Rite (15), STILL does this both at school and in the neighborhood. Just last night he here at home he was supposed to do his chores, plus cut some b/s chicken thighs into bite size pieces for me to cook for supper when I got home.

When I arrived home, he had 4 neighborhood kids (ages 17, 14, 13 and 12) and Mite doing the chores and chicken cutting while he was on the phone arranging for other kids in the neighborhood to come down for a soccer game when they all got done.

don't you wish you had that talent??

I do recommend to intervene on this early on, though. Rite has gotten into trouble with teachers and with neighbors because of this tendency. Plus, while I think he has honed the skill to an art, I worry he doesn't take on the role of plebe to well and I think that is going to hurt him when he gets in more competitive environments.

I often call to Rite and his friends (who are aware of his manipulating but adore him and do it so what ever plans he has can come to fruition for them all), "No Tom Sawyering you guys! Rite's gotta do this one himself"!

Goodness, yeah.. I have same worries too and was surprised when those in the meeting seemed to just laugh it off. Thanks for sharing your experiences!

Willa Gayle,
Rite�s Tom Sawyering is a riot! He must be very charming!

Kat,
My son is the same way with the mundane stuff!!! He�ll dive right into a research project but will complete boring worksheets very slowly. Part of it is that he actually puts thought into his answers (I�m trying to break him of this) and part of it is that he daydreams. He seems to work more quickly at home though. Maybe because he knows there is a payoff for finishing; not just more of the same.

Trinity is right about it being an issue of �fit�. He still has a difficult time with the mindless worksheets that seem to be never ending even in 5th grade. Sixth grade will be better, but I am worried about subjects taught by one teacher who ties real artistic requirements to every academic subject. My son is not an excellent artist and I am concerned that his grades in history and science will be depressed because he has a tendency to create artwork with thick, dark markers (rather than sketches colored in with colored pencil like his sister).

Is anyone else experiencing random censoring of their posts?


Thanks Mark!

Yes! I've had to delete/rewrite/reword posts to get rid of it.. and it does seem pretty random...

So what do we do about getting them to focus and COMPLETE these mundane tasks (the whole world and getting through each day will not always be one big math problem to solve, they have to learn to get through the simplest of tasks without overthinking or overcomplicating things)?

The short answer is to emphasize delayed gratification, the long answer is;

We don�t believe he has met many of his intellectual peers yet, so we remind him that he has to continue to put in his best effort to get to the next level. We believe that his marks will improve as he moves up in grade and also think he needs to get into a high school that has higher than average academic criteria for admittance. This should minimize the occurrence of busywork.

In the meantime, we tell him the truth and validate many of his impressions. He knows that we believe him regarding issues at school and do what we can for him. He knows we have limited influence regarding his school day, yet we continually advocate for him.

We hope that he will end up in his chosen profession where he will most likely be surrounded by others who endured similar educational experiences. If he can maintain his best effort in the meantime, he is more likely to end up where he wants with a career in physics and aviation and less likely to have to endure the mundane on a continual basis.

Very well said, thank you for that!

Our first school district Highly Gifted program's SENG meeting was held earlier today, and I must say it felt good to actually meet parents who have gone through/is going through the same issues I have with my son!

Oh and he loved the interaction with other kids like him too (the kids had a separate workshop time as the parents in the same building but in different room from us). In a few weeks they will also sponsor a grade school "field trip" to another school in the district where they will have a geologist speak to the HG kids about rock formation and history and will have hands-on presentation of a variety of rocks; we simply have to RSVP if we want our kids to go and they will coordinate with each of our schools to make sure they get excused from class without it being counted as an absent. For the older middle school kids I think they're going to Grand Canyon and thereabouts for a field trip next week.

I think this HG program in Clark County will be working out just fine for myself and for my son!

--drool---
wow - sounds tasty!
Enjoy, and do send up updates. It helps to know what's possible.
Trinity