DD9 started AOPS pre algebra this year at an after school class. Great grades on first few tests then deliberately bombed next thinking she wouldn't have to go anymore. Instead, she was put in 5th grade class and is NOT happy. Indeed, it is much too easy but my take is she finishes it out until end of semester because I don't want her to get the message if she doesn't like something she doesn't have to do it. It is miserable for ME because I have to drag her to class every week. She claims that she despises math. The school director thinks her age, length of class (1 1/2 hours) and ADHD all combined to make the pre algebra class too much for her.
What might be some alternatives? I guess I am asking do we pull her out and try something else? School math is dreadfully easy for her as well thus, the after school class.
PS - just so you know, we have made many changes for the better for her so we aren't being mean about this!! Also, she reads "Life of Fred" for fun at night plus one time claimed she liked the new math class because it had games instead of all lectures.

I may be in the minority and I apologize ahead of time for being judgmental but I am actually horrified that a 9 year-old is required to sit for 1 1/2 hours after school to work on pre-algebra or 5th grade math when she has clearly indicated that she doesn't want to go. If your DD progressing in math is so crucial to you, then at least give her things to do that she doesn't hate. There are many interesting books about math and mathematicians if she reads well so perhaps shift gears in that direction. It is also less horrifying (at least to me) if you are forcing her to do a 1 1/2 hour class in the summer when she hasn't already had a full day of school.

It seems that your daughter is aware that the math class is far more important to you than it is to her. Perhaps as Quantum suggested, you should find something else for her to do. You don't have to fold completely if you are worried about giving the wrong message, but you really should give her a choice so that her activities will be important to her.

Yes, I too would worry about giving the wrong message... about trying hard things and perseverance. The decision to take the class is in the past and it is the current decision to persevere or opt out that must be dealt with IMO. The "changes for the better" that you mention hopefully include helping her learn coping skills for future situations that are similar. Clearly the work itself is not too hard given the great tests at the beginning. Can she take a 15 minute recess in the middle of the 1.5 hours? Run around at the park before class? Other parents of children with ADHD may have better suggestions. I'd approach this like any other unpopular task that must be done. Lots of different methods are used by parents on this site and some of my favorites include explaining the rationale for taking the class, the simple "this is the way it is" (which I suspect is similar to the dragging you mention) and bribery. Special snacks to take along or at pickup time for the ride home were quite popular when DD was that age. Money also works if your child is saving for something or just into money.

What is the reason for taking the class, considering that you've successfully advocated for a grade skip for your dd and she's doing well in math at school? Is it something you would have had her do before finding out she was gifted?

I think it's really important to learn the lesson of sticking with things that we commit to in life, but this sounds more like a situation where *you* made the decision to commit to the class, not your dd. I also think it's important to offer classes like this as after-schooling when our children either *request* them or when our kids need help to fill in gaps or to keep up - but it doesn't sound like any of these situations apply here. If your dd is reading "Life of Fred" for fun - go with it, let that be her "extra". And if she doesn't want to do any kind of extra math after school, I'd suggest letting her not do any - unless there's a really compelling reason to make her study math after school.

If she does need to make up some gaps - I'd consider having her tutored or study math in the summer. Expecting a child to study after school when it's something they haven't bought into, aren't passionately interested, and don't want to do, is tough - on both the child and the parent! I'd give both of you a break, and suggest if you want her to be after schooling for the sake of enrichment, find a subject or program she's interested in. Or find a new sport to try. Once *she's* chosen the program then you can require her to stick with it until it's over.

polarbear

ps - I may not be in the majority on this, but if your dd *isn't* behind in math, and doesn't want to study it outside of school, I think it's ok to just let it be what it is in school for now - easy. When she hits middle school she'll have a chance to accelerate. She might not be as far ahead at that point in time if you do no after-schooling vs having her sit through a class in pre-algebra each week, but (jmo), that's ok. It's not going to be the end of the world for her if she's not multi-grade accelerated in math.

Whose choice was it to enroll?
When it's my choice, I let them quit. When it's theirs, they have to attend through the end of the enrollment period.

I disagree. I think that it's not a good thing to let kids just coast. They need to learn how to deal with difficult things and how to try and fail. Those are lessons which will be very useful in life. Of course a nine year old isn't going to volunteer to do something difficult, or enjoy it, especially if she's never been asked to before.

Is this the AOPS online pre-algebra class? Personally, I don't love that format for a 9-year-old. They have to type quickly to be part of the "conversation," and the math is hard. When my son did that class in 5th grade, his teacher, a former high school math teacher, couldn't even answer one of the challenge problems! Of course it's designed to be challenging but if my son wanted to take the class. I can't imagine how it would have gone if I would have insisted he take it.

My concern is that forcing her to stick with this class will make her hate math.

I suggest you find something else where she can work to her level. How about IXL, Kahn, Thinkwell, CTY, BYU online, or any of the numerous other online math classes. AOPS is extremely well regarded, especially for gifted kids, but it's not for every gifted kid.

In my opinion, the try-and-fail lesson works best on a topic of the kid's choosing: riding a bike, solving a puzzle, winning a chess match. The lesson in perseverance can then be applied to required academics, but is really hard to first learn when the kid isn't trying all out - which they won't be if they don't care whether they succeed or not.

My style, yours may vary.

Similar here.

Our choice-- you stick it out until we owe more money or re-up for enrollment.

Hers: Stick it out until the agreed-upon break point.

(This assumes that the situation is one which poses no risks to health, well-being, or anything like that-- THOSE, immediately walking away is always on the table).

I agree with this.

I agree.

Here too. I think you need to look closely at what you mean by "she needs it."

There is a huge difference between encouraging the kid's interests (keeping the fire of curiosity lit) and a forced march. The latter can kill any sense of curiosity, making it harder to fly later.

You've received great advice so far. I'll just add that it is important for kids to be willing to take on an appropriate challenge so they do not disengage and underachieve. That said, her "Life of Fred", which she does for fun, may provide the appropriate challenge for her at this time. Does the new math class still consist of games, or was one particular unit on games, and has the class format now changed to consist primarily of lectures? Although a recent thread discussed whether children actually learn better due to their "learning style preferences", it seemed there was general consensus that "learning style" preferences exist. Especially for extracurricular activities, it may be wise to follow a child's preferences.
Personally, I would explore with her in depth what it is she does not like about the class, and then respect her choice. Do not take her choice personally or allow it to become a power struggle, but view it as an important opportunity to get to know your daughter better. Whether it is math or interpersonal relationships, it may be especially important for girls to receive parental reinforcement and support that their "no" means "no".

Sometimes kids may get a feeling that something is off, and may want to avoid a situation. Not to say that this at all reflective of your daughter's circumstances, but I am familiar with a case in which a young middle school girl one day went to school with her hair "up" as it would need to be for a dance recital after school. That day, a particular teacher asked who she was although she'd been in his class for months. He stood too close and was too attentive. The next academic year the teacher was dismissed for inappropriate conduct toward other students. He had been a well-respected, and popular teacher to that point.

I believe forcing a young child to do a subject after-school that they are not enjoying could cause more harm than good. Kids have a natural love of learning, but when forced will learn to hate the subject. I say this from experience. My son who has ADHD sat after school doing homework, at times for 3 hours and was developing a hate for school and learning. I spoke with his teacher and she limited him to 45 minutes a day. Not only did his grades improve, but so did his love for learning.

I've spent the last year agonizing about "forcing" my DS10 to do AoPS. While I utterly agree with everyone's concerns expressed above, I also have my own experience of why I would make a kid do math against his will - a decision which is by no means final, as I still second guess it many times a day.

In our case, DS10, math monster extraordinaire since birth, is in a regular class with no acceleration and, until this year, no enrichment. He is visual spatial to an extreme, and has writing issues. He has zero intrinsic motivation or self-driven ambition when it comes to academics. By grade 2, he'd learned to hate math. By grade 4 - when it became a writing program - he'd also learned he was no good at it. His anxiety skyrocketed in grade 4. So did his panic attacks when facing anything he didn't already know how to do - new math problem, new song on the piano, whatever. His grades were mediocre.

At the end of grade 4, I was pretty desperate to stop this spiral. I wanted him to re-find a love for math, and that requires higher-level, conceptual problem solving. I wanted him to learn how to calmly face a new kind of problem, recognize he didn't know what to do with it, and persevere regardless. I wanted him to learn that he had the capacity to excel - IF he worked hard. And that hard work was an essential component of success. And to experience the pride that comes with achieving something hard that you really had to work at. (With his writing difficulties, absolutely none of this was happening/ true at school).

So I tried the AoPS pre-Algebra (text and Alcumus only) at home, over the end of summer vacation and after school the first month in the Fall. In about 6 weeks, with only grade 4 math, we got through Pre-Algebra I and II (though we could - and probably should - have spent more time getting into the depth, but I thought he'd be better spending time in Algebra if he could handle it). It was almost all novel, but none of it was particularly difficult for him.

So in October we started AoPS Algebra I on-line. He hates it. He argues about the time we spend on it. He resents having homework that his friends don't. He's never, ever been the kind of gifty that asks for academic-style work (I was the kid begging for my big brother's homework). He just plain doesn't like Algebra (he's the archetypal visual-spatial, and can't wait to get to geometry). It's really hard to make him do it, and I have to hold Minecraft time hostage to math time.

So - no brainer. Like you all say above, stop now, and don't destroy his love of math.

But, but - - -

He loves *having* the math knowledge despite the pain of acquiring it. He's always asking me to print certain problems to take to school to torment his teacher and his mathy pal. He invents problems for me to solve, extrapolating from what we've learned. He adores figuring out complex word problems - and especially the fact that he can get there 100 times faster than I can. When we get to any visual bits - like the chapter on Cartesian planes - he is quivering and giggling with glee every step of the way. Lately, he's "inventing" math theories - mostly noticing interesting patterns and happenings in number theory. He's spent the last week desperately trying to figure out how he could prove (or disprove) that for every number divisible by 3, if you add up the individual digits, the sum is also divisible by 3. He has a new theory every couple of days, every one new to me, and hugely exciting to him.

Yes, he hates learning Algebra in his spare time - but man does he love having that knowledge once acquired. He uses it every day, and it's launching him into tons of his own investigation of numbers, math books, physics videos.... He's got enough background to devour materials that 6 months ago were beyond his reach - whether Martin Gardner, Stephen Hawking or vSauce. If he could just do AoPS during class time, there would be no issue at all - but that's just not an option here. He desperately wants to do geometry, but we need that solid algebra base first. So there's a short-term pain, long-term gain issue here too.

What I did change was to drop the formal class half-way through, as the schedule was too time-consuming and inflexible. We've mostly taken an AoPS break for the last month, doing logic problem-style math and particle physics for a change of pace. We're continuing with it, but more slowly, recognizing we want to savour the depth: our after-schooling schedule, combined with his limited pre-reqs, wasn't compatible with the pace and demand of the on-line course.

So I can well understand how someone can find themselves in greenlotus' position. Am I an evil, hothousing maniac forcing my kid to do AoPS against his clearly-stated will? I think so a dozen times a day and decide to stop. And then I watch him come to life, exploding with excitement at his newest discovery, and can't imagine taking away the fuel that's driving it.

Michelle, I have a child built along similar lines-- so I do understand that.

The thing is this-- when it's going WELL, my DD would always say that she saw the benefit in such activities and understood why not quitting them was important (piano, in her case)-- but when it was NOT going well was definitely not the time to ask and hope for a rational or well-considered response.


She has also differentiated between creative/expressive endeavors and those which are procedurally demanding-- the former, she can afford to be 'giddy' and kind of Tigger-ish (her term) about those things. Things like her latest efforts as a librettist, adaptations of plays, and designing, discussing literature, that kind of thing. She lights up from the inside and it bubbles out of her.

On the other hand, math isn't like that. She does talk about math, but not with the same glowing, energized excitement that she has for musical theater. But it doesn't mean that she loves it any less. It means that she needs a different kind of mental discipline in her approach to mathematics (and piano, too)-- one that doesn't allow for "giddy" until she has mastered the basic tools with which to fly.

She's just now developing that kind of metacognition, though-- and she's 15.


I thought that was a great insight. We DID "force" her to do math at a level that seemed reasonably like a compromise between what she'd have preferred (never learning anything new) and what we thought was technically "right" (at least another year of acceleration, probably two)-- but we never made her enter competitions, force her to work with a tutor, etc. etc.



I'd have a sincere conversation with the child in question and find out if s/he can appreciate that the decision to pursue afterschooling is one that is in his/her best interests. Or not.

DD came down on the "it's better the way it is" side every time-- and the one time she didn't, we listened.

Responses to many of you:

Whose choice was it to enroll? When it's my choice, I let them quit. When it's theirs, they have to attend through the end of the enrollment period.

-- It was DD’s choice to start this class. She rated it very highly last Fall, but the last few months really started protesting. As I stated, the new class is more game oriented so she seemed to like it – for awhile. We pay monthly so can quit the end of March.

I disagree. I think that it's not a good thing to let kids just coast. They need to learn how to deal with difficult things and how to try and fail. Those are lessons which will be very useful in life. Of course a nine year old isn't going to volunteer to do something difficult, or enjoy it, especially if she's never been asked to before.

--This is what we struggle with – she does coast. She has a rough time when faced with difficult work because everything has come easily. Her preference would be to do Minecraft, read history and science books and create websites (Wow, that actually sounds pretty amazing as I sit and type this). We have to sit on her to do homework, or she will sneak back to watching Minecraft videos.

Is this the AOPS online pre-algebra class?

--No, in person class. She really is a hands on learner and finally shared that she didn’t like the teacher talking talking talking....

I think you need to look closely at what you mean by "she needs it."

--Good question. Why does she need it at this point? She accelerated out of 4th grade class where she was miserable and learning nothing with a horrible teacher. She isn’t learning much in 5th grade math either, but she is so much happier. And, as polarbear stated, DD will be in middle school next year with the opportunity for more challenge. She has indicated some interest in taking the SSA test this Spring to see if she can get into a higher level of math.

There is a huge difference between encouraging the kid's interests (keeping the fire of curiosity lit) and a forced march. The latter can kill any sense of curiosity, making it harder to fly later.
-This is what I am worried about.

Finally, what HowlerKarma and Michelle talk about:

She has also differentiated between creative/expressive endeavors and those which are procedurally demanding-- the former, she can afford to be 'giddy' and kind of Tigger-ish (her term) about those things. Things like her latest efforts as a librettist, adaptations of plays, and designing, discussing literature, that kind of thing. She lights up from the inside and it bubbles out of her.

We DID "force" her to do math at a level that seemed reasonably like a compromise between what she'd have preferred (never learning anything new) and what we thought was technically "right" (at least another year of acceleration, probably two)-- but we never made her enter competitions, force her to work with a tutor, etc. etc.

I'd have a sincere conversation with the child in question and find out if s/he can appreciate that the decision to pursue afterschooling is one that is in his/her best interests. Or not.

DD “lights up” about her creations and is passionately loud about it. She quietly reads all her nonfiction and doesn’t scream with joy about it, just never stops. Obviously she loves it. Math, well, she is good at it, but it’s definitely lower on the totem pole. Well, gosh, I think she should quit after reading all this and do something that she would think is fun. DH just agreed. You guys are good about helping me think about all sides of an issue.

I always want to be helpful, so, I put in my two cents, only because you are asking.

Here's the thing; don't focus on any one topic / subject at any one time.

The cool thing about the gifted / HG kids is that, if and when they want to do something they will do it and, likely, with flying colors.

So, you might know that your child needs x instead of y, but also know that in the future, if the gifted person is really wanting to know about x, they really can get themselves up to speed very quickly; I think that may be why, originally, someone decided to call these highly intellectual people "gifted."

Also, and this is just a thought (please throw it out if it does not apply or is totally off-base), part of the matter (even on a subconscious basis) might be a very healthy, normal part of asserting one's own independence and saying "No, I am not doing that." That would seem normal to me (especially mother-daughter seems to be written about a lot). And, I have a theory that the gifted children demonstrate this type of behavior very early-on, but the children not in that range exhibit it in high-school or college. Thus, the asynchronous label and we are going through stages at varying times / ages.

Maybe it's too easy but maybe, if she likes LOF, she might enjoy Beast Academy? Or our library has many different-level Prufrock Press math books with a project/game focus... Just ideas to keep her going if you press pause on the class this month.