Today while speaking with another concerned, connected mother; I had the thought that maybe my personality is inhibiting my ability to advocate well. I am a relatively anxious person and do well with answers and a plan. I can and do follow directions and will listen to advice.

However, besides the tester and a couple close friends; no one will listen to me (or as evidence at our last meeting- my husband). What are we doing wrong?change?

I am afraid that this will lead to my ds not being served appropriately in school. Next week, Cogat testing. Then parent teacher conference. I'm anxious to hear from the teacher how she really sees my ds (and hopefully it will be more on par with what we see).

Also, starting to wonder if this school is going to work for him? Lots to think about.

Has anyone felt their personality was inhibiting advocacy? Were you able to work through it?

A book you might like is Robert Cialdini's "Influence". While it's not specific to the needs of gifted advocates, it does offer a fairly comprehensive discussion of techniques and principles that can be used to influence others successfully. It's a standby in organizational behaviour classes (and a personal favourite).

Sounds as though the first thing you need is a growth, rather than a fixed, mindset! I think advocacy skills can be learned like any others, though surely some people have a head start. I just had an appraisal at which it was pointed out that I'm lousy at negotiating (I just say Yes when people ask me to do things at work...) so I'm the last person to ask about specifics right now... but I'm learning :-)

Also I found out that I do much better when I advocate one on one. I was in a meeting with 2 teachers and an administrator and that meeting went poorly (understatement)...several meetings later that were one on one (different administrator, then the first one again, phone call with district person) and I got things moving. I probably could have handled another large group meeting after things started moving in the positive direction but I completely shut down at that first group meeting when things started going south.

I need to read that book that Aquinas recommends!

My biggest mistake (in the past) has been in assuming that Logic is all that's needed:-

"Here are the facts...
...so here are the conclusions that any right thinking person would draw"

Was the entirely misguided approach that I used to have - and the one that I will fall into if I don't self monitor.

What I have discovered through trial and error (mostly error - LOL) is that people need space and 'suggestion' to make decisions. Learning how to guide their conclusions when given the facts - drawing them out instead of forcing mine on them works better - duh.

When advocating for DD I found that lots of verbalized variations on:-

"we need to work on this as a team so as parents we are here because we need your help so that we can all work together on this"

has got me better results than my old bull in a china shop approaches of yore. Appealing to the school staffs' human nature and finding things that they have done worthy of praise (even if it chokes you to say it) gets them to be more open too.

In the end, though, often it takes all of the above and persistently working up the chain of command to get what you need. The sucking up/ego stroking done lower down the ladder helps, big time later, though, to get the rank and file buy in once the decision maker has been brought into line.

Just my $0.02 YMMV

Melessa I have been going through the same thing but as the result of a totally different personality type. I am highly verbal and tend to beat people over the head. I do not agree to anything if presented by someone who has violated my trust in the past. I instinctively look down the road and analyze the possible repercussions of what will happen if this thing they propose - which is clearly a mistake - goes wrong. Unfortunately my "worst case scenario" assessments have come true more often than I could have ever imagined. This prevents me from being a team player and biting my tongue even when intellectually I know that would be the best course of action.

Yes in the end I have "beaten them into submission" and gotten my DD a boat load of services including out of district placement. It has taken a huge toll on me, though. I find myself wondering all the time if I could have been just as successful without being so angry and aggressive. Sadly every time I have tried to go against my personality and not be "that parent" it has bitten my DD in the derrière. So I continue on in the way that has proven to be the most successful result wise. Every time I let my guard down even a little bit I feel like my DD pays the price. It's exhausting.

And yes I also fall in the "logic is all that should be needed" category. Unbelievably frustrating to spell it out clearly and logically, have everyone nod their heads in agreement and understanding and then watch as it all falls apart. This is especially frustrating on the 2E end when dealing with a child whose profile is so incredibly rare that we have to constantly battle against people who don't believe her situation is real until they see it for themselves. This is usually as a result of them taking actions that I know in advance are setting her up to fail. Once you experience this a few times and have to pick up the pieces of your already fragile child being hurt yet again how can I not become "that parent" and fight like a mother bear protecting her cub?

I could have written Made in UK's post.

Unfortunately, I tended (originally) to have two settings-- bashing over the head with logic, or conflict-avoidance.

Luckily, I had one advantage that not many parents do in advocacy: an inside perspective.

So I knew that neither of those approaches is the right one with educators. They, too, tend to be (almost overwhelmingly) conflict-avoidant to the point of being passive or passive-aggressive people. Aggression (or any signs of it) tend to be anathema.

It's just the nature of that particular beast. The other unfortunate thing is that if you DO go the aggression route, as MiUK notes, you may lack "the spirit of the thing" down the road with the everyday players, which can only harm your child.

Here's something to bear in mind-- I know that I do-- when I get the Grizzly Bear impulse to go all medieval on a school teacher/staffer:

what is the VERY worst thing that could happen if I let this one go today?

In my DD's case, I had no choice but to be Grizzly Mom in a brick and mortar setting, which is a huge reason why she isn't in one. Because there, the risk really is "DD could die today." On the other hand, this has made me much more patient and strategically clever as an advocate, because I have the perspective that while occasionally dire... her educational placement issues are, when you get right down to it, mostly of the "first world problems" variety. Not worth the cavalry on a day to day basis. Worth chipping away at, though. But not a matter for calling 911.

That has been a hard thing to wrestle, however. The impulse as a parent is to make EVERYTHING "right" and when it isn't, to go charging in loaded for bear, so to speak. It's taken me YEARS to prioritize things, and I still (occasionally) get it wrong. I've always been great at catastrophizing, thanks in part to my own LOG and ability to see consequences down the road. While that is a useful skill, and one that I wouldn't trade (it has kept me and mine safe on more than one occasion), it also takes a toll to be chasing mice around the elephant in the center of the room. KWIM?

Here's my secret as an advocate: I'm always professional, but I'm also relentless. Think about the line from The Shawshank Redemption: "Pressure... and time." If you can afford TIME, then let gentle pressure do its thing.

I've only failed ONCE. It was crushing-- but it was also genuinely "no-win." So know that such things can happen-- and know the signs so that you don't emotionally overinvest in "winning" and forget that your ultimate goal is expediting what your child needs. That loss still stings many years later, I'll just add. My daughter still bridles over it, too.

I used to feel the same way as you about my personality or approach inhibiting my ability to negotiate (another way of thinking about advocacy). There's a classic but very good book called "Getting to Yes." (Fisher, Ury and Patton) Relatively short, available in paperback and there's also a workbook you can use to plan your approach. Reading the book changed my way of looking at these types of situations completely.

I highly recommend reading it asap. A few key thoughts from the book and other negotiating texts.. know what you want/what your alternatives are/what they are likely worried about or trying to accomplish... be willing to be quiet and let them get uncomfortable. (The last bit really creates some interesting situations -- people do not like silence.)

Don't let these people manipulate you into blaming yourself.

I found the advocacy conversations before and after our sons' testing results were available were like night and day. Things that I had said that were ignored before we had the testing were suddenly considered important, and received a response. Before the testing, they didn't believe me. They were polite, but my attempts at advocating were completely shut down.

There was apparently nothing I could say to convince them to do anything when we didn't have "proof," but after the test scores were available their attitudes toward working with us completely changed. I think they literally thought I was either lying or completely misguided before they saw the test results. Once the test results were presented by the school psychologist, we were finally able to begin to effectively advocate.

Just stick to your main message. Think about who will be at the meeting, and see if you can start to build consensus with them before the group meeting.

Amen! We spent too much time last year thinking there was something wrong with our son based on what the administrator and his teacher said. Oh, and don't be surprised if the teacher doesn't "get" your DS either. It took almost the entire school year for our son's teacher to admit he was "high ability."

I once read that in a survey of doctors and patients across various backgrounds, the group that gets the best quality of service from the medical profession is... engineers. Engineers advocate successfully for the right kinds of treatments because they:

- Separate out emotions and focus on the problem as a technical issue... which is all it is to the doctor, when you get right down to it.
- Ask probing questions and examine the diagnosis for consistency: "But if the problem is X, shouldn't I also be experiencing symptoms D and E?"
- Ask for verification methods (even if it's just, "If it doesn't clear up in a few days...") and a plan for follow-up if the initial diagnosis turns out to be incorrect.

So in other words, engineers are successful because they speak the same language, approach the problem from the same angle, and already know the next steps.

Which, if my experience is any indication, also makes engineers fairly poor advocates for education. I did not speak their language (initially), understand their approach to the problem, or know what the next steps would be.

In fact... I'm not sure we both came together to solve the same problem. DW and I went into those meetings seeking a solution for a more appropriate education for our daughter. I assumed they were there for the same thing, which is why I always let them know that, while we always came with a proposed solution, I was open to any alternatives they might propose, so long as they addressed the problem at hand. Our proposals were rejected, and no alternatives were forthcoming. As time went by, it became apparent that they believed that they had already provided the most appropriate education for my daughter, so the only problem they had come to solve was... complaining parents.

Looking back on my post, it seems that the problem wasn't so much one of personality, but of recognizing and accepting that the school had placed upon us an unreasonable burden of proof to demonstrate how the classroom environment they had chosen for DD was, as we said, toxic. Since the ways she presented at home and at school were entirely contradictory, that was not a burden we could fulfill through conversation.

Eventually, we got the right solution (at least it seems like it, so far) by bypassing them altogether.

Since then (because advocating never ends), we've gotten a good deal more success by cutting through all of the fluffy nonsense and focusing the dialog on their core mission: teaching. They love to talk about the whole child, and the various other domains, like social and emotional, and what they're doing about all that. We fell into that trap originally, mainly because it was in the social and emotional domains that they were doing her so much harm, so we thought that was a good basis for discussion. I finally came to realize that an appropriate placement with peers that addresses her intellectual needs solves all the other problems in the other domains, so I need to focus entirely on that. Now, I boil it down to one simple statement: "My DD needs to be learning," and I return to that theme whenever the conversation starts wandering down the wrong path. If they try to interject about "the whole child," I remind them that we're the parents, worrying about that is our job, and we are on it.

Agreed. Great book suggestions above. Fixing the rut in the gifted education road might include teachers/schools/programs readily using available resources (data/scores/research/parental input) to achieve appropriate academic placement and pacing, cluster grouping by readiness and ability, without regard to chronological age or grade level.

Agreed! (Emphasis added in quote above.)

Added link to this post which contains research to support the quoted parent's statement.

+1 for that entire post.

I suspect that many or most of us here are familiar with what you've described.

+1 here, too.

This is why I became the go-to person with medical and with educational advocacy. My DH doesn't speak the language as a native in either instance. I was raised in a bilingual household w.r.t. education, so I know that stuff. I don't have to think about translating.

If you're not a native speaker, you have to do some legwork up front to understand where the other players are coming from. Classroom teachers are generally there because they really care about children-- so resistance is often about ignorance, not malice.

Thanks for all the thoughts! Gave me lots to think about and books to read.

I guess I'm feeling kind of confused, because when we spoke with the principal in the spring (with test scores to back us up); she was very helpful and seemed concerned about ds.

At the meeting this year with district people too; it just went badly. The district people were unwilling to hear about vision accommodations. (I did talk about this in another thread). The principal then said to talk to the teacher about differentiation.

I think I am worried that if this teacher doesn't really get him (because "she's so good at that"); I'm not sure this school is going to work out. Especially to me, he's pretty easy to get (but I know I'm biased). We'll see.

Well I know I have the wrong personality.

I withdraw when the other person is forceful - especially when they are male.

I don't read body language and am a bit literal when it comes to language.

I am really really bad at schmoozing. I just don't have the energy or time to play games. I just don't see why it has to be such a big deal to allow a child to actually learn something.

Melessa, here's a TEDx talk you might like, too.

This TEDx talk by social scientist Jeni Cross on the subject of Creating Change shares the strong positive influence of presenting societal norms which model the desired behavior, on impacting the results achieved when advocating for change. She opens with this at the beginning (00:54 - 01:46) and closes with it near the end (16:00 - 17:14).

This suggests that parents interested in broadening pro-gifted education behavior and attitudes, may wish to find and focus on gifted ed success stories.

In applying that lesson from this TEDx talk, might a collection of gifted teacher/school/program success stories be the start of a new advocacy thread which parents could tap into and leverage as needed?

Davidson Academy might be a great first example?

I honestly don't think there is a right or wrong personality for advocating for our children. I do think there are better approaches than others - and using your own unique personality is so important because it makes your words genuine and authentic.

Using the right communication tools is a different thing - consensus building, removing emotion, etc. that are mentioned here are personality agnostic for the most part.

For me, the most important piece is believing that you have the right, responsibility, and power to advocate. Schools are built on general rules; we spend our lives pushing for exceptions not for the sake of the exception but for because it evens the playing field.

I think that's a great idea!

Great wisdom!

Leveling the playing field (in a relative way, with respect to other students) may be the aim of accommodations for 2e and practices of "equity" which may provide an advantage similar to a golf handicap for some students.

That being said, for the most part gifted advocacy may be simply to meet the individual differing academic needs of an underserved minority of students, including clustering with true peers (not necessarily age-mates), so these students are not damaged and left behind by benign neglect of the educational system.

Done! http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/169478.html#Post169478

Yes, this above.

Having been around public education for about 31 years now (my wife is a MS / HS teacher) I can say that in my eyes, public education, generally speaking (there are always exceptions thankfully) has to be the most sugar coated, honey dripping, red tape wrapped organization I've dealt with in my 52 years of life.

I cannot possibly imagine a for profit company working in such a manner, so poorly tuned to their customers needs and desires, so slow to respond, and so dismissive of facts, logic, and evidence.

I finally came to the conclusion that it would simply take far too long to make any meaningful change, time that we didn't have as during that time my child's education was wasting away. Luckily, there were a couple of very good teachers to temper a generally ignorant pool of them, I mean ignorant in the best of ways actually, nobody had ever taught them, unfortunately for most of them it still didn't sink in when they were taught.

In the end, after a great deal of wasted time, I came to the conclusion that we need to do everything within our own power to present opportunities for growth outside of public school while still attempting to educate and affect change within the school district itself, not just for the sake of our own children but for the sake of those to come.

Ditto.

Aint't that the truth!

One of the reasons that I am pleased that I showed our school district the IOWA Acceleration Scale is not just because they agreed to accelerate just my DD based on her metrics but because the board also voted to use the scale to measure future requests.

Hopefully, future parents of bright kids in the district will not to have to have to go through what felt to us at the time like every Station of The Cross just to get their kids the differentiation that they need.

So, I'm wondering if teachers already think they're providing appropriate education (which is clearly NOTappropriate), and we're doing all the work afterschool; is school merely a daycare? Or for social reasons?

I'm really questioning the appropriateness of brick and mortar school for my ds.

Melessa, I used to get the impression they thought I was a bad person for doing EPGY after school. Because I was depriving them of half an hour of bike riding time in favor of education, and they were depriving them of SIX HOURS of bike riding time in favor of learning to be patient and sit quietly without anything to do.

Not that patience and quiet sitting aren't good skills, I just question if they're so valuable they need 180 days a year devoted to them.

There is no doubt in my mind that when the law says you must provide free and appropriate education for a child they really mean free or appropriate.

The federal law describing FAPE only applies to children with disabilities. They have a legally protected right to a free and appropriate education. Apparently, they're the only ones.

Some states have legislation on the books establishing FAPE for all exceptionalities, including gifted. Mine is one of those. We fought for three years because the education was not appropriate. It's not free, either. We had to pony up a $10 materials fee on day one.

We are aware of public schools being "tuition free" however charging hundreds of dollars in registration fees, materials fees, lab fees, supplies fees, photocopying fees, activity fees (for field trips)... plus $200 or so for participation in gifted programming... not to mention the extracurricular fees which are often padded to include money designated for a school fund which provides scholarships to selected students in their senior year. Students are also expected to supply toilet paper and copier paper for school use, and Kleenex or other facial tissue for classroom use.

Yep, we have that, too. There's a long list of items.

Which begs the question... why are we paying a supplies fee and then sending DD to school with supplies?

Well, and that assumes that they actually GET it. Big assumption, let me assure you.

I actually know of a child who received no curricular access at all for nearly 12 weeks during the fall of that child's 1st grade year in my district. Why?

Well, because they had failed to prepare in advance for the fact that this child is blind. That's right-- no specialized materials were ordered, no para had been hired, no audio equipment had been arranged for the classroom... no speech-to-text software, nothing.


In the bonus round, this came as a complete surprise not only to the child and parents-- but to the classroom teacher as well!


The child sat in the back of the classroom for months. You might think that the parents had maybe... surprised(?) the district, right? Not so. The district had KNOWN that this child would be entering 1st grade for two years.

This makes me want to cry for that child.